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Re: Structure in Prophetic Writings
[Re: James Peterson]
#186889
06/22/18 03:51 PM
06/22/18 03:51 PM
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FORMER-SDA Active Member 2018 Banned
Senior Member
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 663
Canada
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However, Revelation 12 takes up the Genesis narrative in apocalyptic form in hope: [list][*]A woman, being with child, cried out in labor and in pain to give birth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. [*]Her Child was caught up to God and His throne. And war broke out there in heaven: the Child and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. [*]Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the dragon has been cast down." And the followers of the Child on earth overcame the dragon too: James, Revelation 12 seems to indicate that the "war in heaven" occurs AFTER the birth of the child. This, I admit, is based solely on the apparent chronological order of the chapter. If verse 7 leaps back to a point in time preceding vs. 1-6 there is nothing to indicated that, except possibly our preestablished assumption of the timeline. Also, v. 12 (Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short." NIV) seems to indicate "rejoicing" for the people in heaven but "woe" to the people on earth. And, v.13 (When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. NIV) when the Devil is cast to earth, he pursues the woman, which precipitates her fleeing and the "time, times, and half a time." Traditionally, we have viewed the "war in heaven" to have occurred prior to the fall of man. Should this view be re-examined? I would appreciate if you could clarify your understanding. This would necessitate a new thread, so as not to de-rail this thread.
"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
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Re: Structure in Prophetic Writings
[Re: JAK]
#186891
06/22/18 07:46 PM
06/22/18 07:46 PM
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NON-SDA Active Member 2019
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
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James, Revelation 12 seems to indicate that the "war in heaven" occurs AFTER the birth of the child. This, I admit, is based solely on the apparent chronological order of the chapter. If verse 7 leaps back to a point in time preceding vs. 1-6 there is nothing to indicated that, except possibly our preestablished assumption of the timeline.
Also, v. 12 (Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short." NIV) seems to indicate "rejoicing" for the people in heaven but "woe" to the people on earth.
And, v.13 (When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. NIV) when the Devil is cast to earth, he pursues the woman, which precipitates her fleeing and the "time, times, and half a time."
Traditionally, we have viewed the "war in heaven" to have occurred prior to the fall of man. Should this view be re-examined? I would appreciate if you could clarify your understanding.
This would necessitate a new thread, so as not to de-rail this thread. The question is not so much about the "war in heaven" as about when was Satan cast out of heaven. SDA say he was cast out before the fall of man and have built a fortified edifice of an extra-biblical story around the idea. See Ellen White's Great Controversy, Chapter 1.However, Rev. 12:10 says, " Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come ..." meaning that Calvary was a necessary precursor to the casting out of Satan from heaven. The battle on earth was going to trigger the battle in heaven. The victory on earth was going to seal the victory in heaven; and not the other way around. It was only after his resurrection that Jesus Christ said, in Mat. 28, " All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations ..." echoing Rev. 12:10. ///
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Re: Structure in Prophetic Writings
[Re: Daryl]
#186893
06/22/18 08:06 PM
06/22/18 08:06 PM
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SDA Active Member 2024
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,475
Midland
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verse 5) woman gave birth 6) woman fled 7) war arose 9) dragon cast out 12) woe to earth and those who dwell (not future tense), time is short 13) dragon pursued woman who "had given" birth 14) woman fled (repeat of 6? or further details of why she fled) Nourished 3.5 times (1260 days, which has been said to occur after the cross)
Issues were in heaven prior to earth (verse 4 before standing before the woman). But real war and casting down was at the cross. Otherwise, chapter 12 would be jumping back and forth multiple times not making sense.
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Re: Structure in Prophetic Writings
[Re: James Peterson]
#186894
06/22/18 08:13 PM
06/22/18 08:13 PM
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FORMER-SDA Active Member 2018 Banned
Senior Member
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 663
Canada
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...meaning that Calvary was a necessary precursor to the casting out of Satan from heaven. The battle on earth was going to trigger the battle in heaven. The victory on earth was going to seal the victory in heaven; and not the other way around. So, just to be clear, (because I think this has significant implications,) Satan was in (or had access to) heaven, until Calvary. Definitely not what SDA teaches, but seems to be supported by Rev. 12.
"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
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Re: Structure in Prophetic Writings
[Re: kland]
#186895
06/23/18 12:03 AM
06/23/18 12:03 AM
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NON-SDA Active Member 2019
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
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verse 5) woman gave birth 6) woman fled 7) war arose 9) dragon cast out 12) woe to earth and those who dwell (not future tense), time is short 13) dragon pursued woman who "had given" birth 14) woman fled (repeat of 6? or further details of why she fled) Nourished 3.5 times (1260 days, which has been said to occur after the cross)
Issues were in heaven prior to earth (verse 4 before standing before the woman). But real war and casting down was at the cross. Otherwise, chapter 12 would be jumping back and forth multiple times not making sense. I thought somebody was going to raise verse 4a, " [the dragon's] tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth." But the "stars of heaven" there are not the angels, but those stars on the woman's head. It says the " woman [was] clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars." v.1 The 12 stars altogether are a symbol of Israel which was made up of 12 tribes. And that same dragon, with its 7 heads and 10 horns was responsible for the fall of the smaller part of the Israel, i.e. the Kingdom of Judah over which he had kings and governors installed according to his dictates. Now a new king arrived on the horizon, and the dragon, knowing the end and troubled, was determined to get rid of Him who was the Son of Man born to be King of the Jews, of the World, of the Universe! The "casting down of a third of the stars by a tail" therefore is not about a pre-earthly-creation-heavenly drama, but the part of Israel known as the Kingdom of Judah, the kingdom that was cast down to the ground and made provincial by 4 great and mighty empires. ///
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Re: Structure in Prophetic Writings
[Re: JAK]
#186896
06/23/18 12:06 AM
06/23/18 12:06 AM
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NON-SDA Active Member 2019
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
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...meaning that Calvary was a necessary precursor to the casting out of Satan from heaven. The battle on earth was going to trigger the battle in heaven. The victory on earth was going to seal the victory in heaven; and not the other way around. So, just to be clear, (because I think this has significant implications,) Satan was in (or had access to) heaven, until Calvary. Definitely not what SDA teaches, but seems to be supported by Rev. 12. There are official statements and then there are viewpoints from the pews. ///
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Structure in Prophetic Writings
#186897
06/23/18 03:40 AM
06/23/18 03:40 AM
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OP
Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,599
Canada
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It seems that the average western mind is most comfortable in linear sequential presentations. However, we need to be open to the possibility that the prophets didn't necessarily write in linear sequential form.
Sequential form usually moves from cause to effect. But there are other literary structures in scripture, for example, one can also start with the effect, then present the cause.
Many have noticed chiastic structure in the Bible. For example, the structure ABBA refers to two ideas (A and B) repeated in reverse order (B and A). Often, a chiasm includes another idea in the middle of the repetition: ABXBA.
Or there may be a focal point, like a mountain peak, and two streams moving in either direct from the focal point.
Parallel writing is very common in scripture as well. Points for comparison and contrast were often emphasized by repetition in parallel structures.
In symmetric parallels, the primary point of emphasis often comes at the middle of the passage. While a secondary point often comes at the beginning and end.
There are more interesting literary structures that the Bible writers used. I'm mentioning them because we may be on the wrong track if we insist on a simple linear sequential structure for Revelation 12.
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Re: Structure in Prophetic Writings
[Re: dedication]
#186901
06/23/18 10:46 AM
06/23/18 10:46 AM
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NON-SDA Active Member 2019
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
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It seems that the average western mind is most comfortable in linear sequential presentations. However, we need to be open to the possibility that the prophets didn't necessarily write in linear sequential form.
Sequential form usually moves from cause to effect. But there are other literary structures in scripture, for example, one can also start with the effect, then present the cause.
Many have noticed chiastic structure in the Bible. For example, the structure ABBA refers to two ideas (A and B) repeated in reverse order (B and A). Often, a chiasm includes another idea in the middle of the repetition: ABXBA.
Or there may be a focal point, like a mountain peak, and two streams moving in either direct from the focal point.
Parallel writing is very common in scripture as well. Points for comparison and contrast were often emphasized by repetition in parallel structures.
In symmetric parallels, the primary point of emphasis often comes at the middle of the passage. While a secondary point often comes at the beginning and end.
There are more interesting literary structures that the Bible writers used. I'm mentioning them because we may be on the wrong track if we insist on a simple linear sequential structure for Revelation 12.
You have mislabeled the thread. This is NOT about the literary forms and devices of scripture, but about the time when Satan was cast out from heaven. Was it: - before the creation of man, as Ellen White contends1, or
- after the events of Calvary, as implied by Rev. 12?
In support of the latter, the loud voice in heaven spoke of the dragon's accusations against the people of God before he was cast out of heaven. " Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death." (Rev. 12:10-11) It is obvious that the dragon's casting out was after Calvary. Note that the voice says, "NOW salvation," and "BECAUSE the accuser has been cast down." And again, "who accused THEM (who overcame the dragon by THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB)." Baiting and switching the topic to change the truth of those words is like holding up a flimsy door against a flood or hiding your nakedness behind transparent curtains.--------------------- 1 See; GC (1858 Ed.) Chap. 1; EW Chap. 35; PP Chap. 1 ///
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Re: Structure in Prophetic Writings
[Re: dedication]
#186902
06/23/18 12:53 PM
06/23/18 12:53 PM
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SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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When was the war in heaven? Revelation 12:7-9 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, (8) And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. (9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. What happened at the time of the Cross? Could one sin have been found in Christ, had He in one particular yielded to Satan to escape the terrible torture, the enemy of God and man would have triumphed. Christ bowed His head and died, but He held fast His faith and His submission to God. "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." Revelation 12:10. {DA 761.1} Satan saw that his disguise was torn away. His administration was laid open before the unfallen angels and before the heavenly universe. He had revealed himself as a murderer. By shedding the blood of the Son of God, he had uprooted himself from the sympathies of the heavenly beings. Henceforth his work was restricted. Whatever attitude he might assume, he could no longer await the angels as they came from the heavenly courts, and before them accuse Christ's brethren of being clothed with the garments of blackness and the defilement of sin. The last link of sympathy between Satan and the heavenly world was broken. {DA 761.2}
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Structure in Prophetic Writings
[Re: James Peterson]
#186903
06/23/18 06:06 PM
06/23/18 06:06 PM
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FORMER-SDA Active Member 2018 Banned
Senior Member
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 663
Canada
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So there seem to be a variety of views on this point, and not everyone is united. It's almost like Satan fell in stages, first loosing his privileged position in heaven and then being cast out.
Isa. 14 and Eze. 28 both talk about Satan's fall, and Job mentions Satan coming before God as representative of this world. (Although I understand Job as a literary work exploring the meaning of suffering, rather than a factual/historical event.) So it is possible that he rebelled and was cast out of heaven with his angels at or near the time of creation, but he himself still had access to God/heaven until the cross.
The Bible is not specific on this point, but that seems to make the most sense to me.
As an aside, I (currently) reject any and all theologies that postulate Satan being a necessary part of God's creation. In a nutshell, without the fall of Satan there would have been no fall of man, hence no need for salvation. No sin, no atonement, no cross.
"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
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