One of the hardest errors for non-Adventists to give up is the immortality of the soul and it's twin, eternal hell fire. Two of the texts that are often used to support them are the parable of the rich man and Lazarus and the fifth seal of Revelation 6 which describes the souls of the martyrs under the altar, pleading for justice. Those passages present a challenge but they can be explained well if we first lay a foundation based on what the scriptures teach regarding the nature of man.

The Bible tells us that man is a mysterious combination of three things: Body, soul and spirit. The physical aspect is not so mysterious. But have you ever attempted to precisely define from scripture the difference between the soul and the spirit? We know the scriptures teach that the spirit is the breath of life from God. But what is the soul? Some have used the formula Body + Spirit = Living Soul, and that is what we read in Genesis but it begs the question: What is soul and what is spirit?

Paul tells us that the Greek poet was right when he said: “In Him we live and move and have our being”. So the spirit of life in us is not just the first breath of life that God blesses us with at birth. Every breath we take is a gift. “In Him we live and move and have our being”. In other words every waking conscious moment, every conscious thought, every choice, every act of the will; for all of them we are indebted to Christ for imparting to us the vitality, the spirit to exist, to have conscious, independent thought and action. In contrast, the soul is the personality and character that shapes the conscious thoughts and acts of the will. And the mind is the physical theater where this mysterious intersection between our souls and our conscious spirits occurs.

So when the Apostle tells us that the word of God pierces through each of us even to the dividing of soul and spirit, that statement is true in every sense; spiritually and physically. Spiritually the word has power to pierce to the deepest recesses of the heart bringing to light, to consciousness, the deformity that exists in the soul. Those who accept these flashes of divine enlightenment into their conscious being, acknowledging them and repenting wholeheartedly are sanctified in the truth. Those who don't will ultimately find that the spirit of life departs their souls. The word slays them dividing asunder soul and spirit and the soul without the spirit is dead physically and spiritually.

In the case of the righteous who die the spirit or breath of life from God departs and returns to God. Interestingly, the soul does too, but without the spirit the soul has no life. It sleeps. The souls of the saints beneath the heavenly altar – and this is where they apparently are resting in an unconscious sleep (Psalms 84 seems to agree), under the loving protection of the altar - are like Abel; they are at rest, but their blood, like Abel's calls out to God for His justice.

But, a still more persuasive approach in dealing with the non-immortality issue is to go direct to the error that is often at the root – eternal hell fire based in a misapprehension of the character of God. This seems to be the motive force behind many people's unwillingness to let go of their non-immortality error; they are entrench in a view of God that is integral to their world view. How do we reach them with scripture? There is plenty on this point: You can cover the basics addressing the use of the terms “forever” and the nature of man etc, but I'd say make your main focus throughout the character of God and of Christ.

Stay focused here. Put yourself in their shoes. The principle that refutes this error is the justice and mercy of God. The punishments and rewards of God are alike just and merciful. While sin itself is exceedingly sinful, finite mortals are not the objects of infinite wrath. While God's love is infinite, He limits His wrath. In all dispositions of justice, the punishment is proportionate to the crime.

And so “the wages of sin is death,” not eternal torment. Death is the finite, earned compensation, “but the gift of God is eternal life”, an infinite, unmerited gift. God is both just and merciful to all, including the wicked. Those who sin most are storing up for themselves greater wrath against the day of reckoning but having endured this wrath, the final disposition of a just and merciful God is the same – death. The Lord “will not always chide, neither will He keep his anger forever.” Psalm 103:9. He puts no limits on His love. It is infinite. But in His love He puts limits on His wrath.

What of the hardest errors for Adventists to let go of is idea that God is the executioner of the sentences against transgression. But He is not, Sin pays its wage, death. Sin when it is full grown, brings death. The inevitable results of sin, is death. Romans 6:23; James 1:15; PP 522; DA 764

Both are true: Sin brings death, and God is the sovereign judge who decides who will suffer sin's consequences and who will not.

The same with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is indeed the spirit of Christ but He is also a person. And the same with Christ. He is the son of God but he is also "without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life". Heb 7:3.

Which makes me sad seeing you use one scripture to overrule another and so I wonder what will happen to your faith next when you see another supposed contradiction.

APL, you've seen I have respected your wishes and stopped commenting on your thread because I can't take the time to watch the video through. I hope you'll reciprocate here where we're dealing with another topic. The Lord calls us to peace. I'm sorry where I've been abrasive.

Good question and I have done this study many times. In the early years when I wasn't looking at the Greek or Hebrew words, it was impossible to make any sense because the English translations often put the word "spirit" where "soul" should be used and vise versa. After looking at the Hebrew and Greek words things started to be more clear a little.

I think that we Adventist are severely confusing the spirit with the soul. We often view them together and not separate like Paul describes them as 3 separate entities as "body, soul, and spirit".

Charity look closer at what Gen 2:7 says :
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath H5397-Nechamah of life; and man became a living soul."

Notice that there's no mention of ruach(the Hebrew word for the Spirit) in this text. There is a big difference between Nechamah and Ruach. The "breath" of Nechamah gives the intellect to the mind. It's what put us seperate from animals by our ability to think and reason. However this thinking and reasoning ability does NOT equate having the spirit of God. As you know there's many men out there who thinks and reason ability works very well but they are not endowed with the Spirit (ruach) of God.


I dissagree with that statement as explain above.


I think that formula is erronous because we haven't looked at Gen 2:7 close enough. There's no mention of the Spirit (ruach) in Gen 2:7.

So your question is very important and we need to know from scriptures the difference between soul and spirit.

Above you are combining the soul and the spirit together.
To my understanding from scriptures, this is the mistake most christian do. Actually I would put the section not striked above as part of the definition of the soul but not the spirit. The breath + the intellect comes from Nechamah. The physical brain or mind is the place where these soulish intellectual interaction happens.

However, when we receive the breath that comes from ruach (the Holy Spirit); it is not process by our soul but rather our spirit. I elaborate on this further down.


Again here you are combining soul and spirit. The Greeks combined the soul and the spirit together too; but their error is not understanding that the real source of wisdom comes from the spirit and not the soul(the intellect). So when Paul said in Heb 4:12 that the sword of the Spirit divides the soul from the spirit; he's making a distinction that the truth coming from the Holy Spirit can only be perceived by the human's spirit part.

I know it is not that clear that Paul is saying this in Heb 4:12 but when we read 1Cor 2:14 we see this distinction very clear.

1Cor 2:14 " the natural man [psychikos], receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
Psychikos has a long definition but basically it is "of the breath". It's root word psyche means SOUL.

Now keeping these definition in mind let's re-read 1Cor 2:14 -- the natural [soulish or the soul of] man receive NOT the things of the Spirit of God, and think it is foolishness; because they are spiritually discerned [by the spirit of man].

It is very important to know this distinction between the soul[our intellect that comes from our physical mind] and our spirit. These are seperate having different location in our being. I don't believe our spirit have a physical location in our body. The spirit is invisible without form; but this doesn't mean we don't have a spirit.



Scriptures says that the body returns to dust; the soul goes to she'owl --hades (see Ps 16:10; 30:3;86:13; 88:3; 89:48; Prov 23:14; Ecc 9:10) and our spirit returns to God. Three different places for the three different component of our being.

We Adventist kinda put -- "going back to dust" and hades in the same place. I disagree for scripture treats them differently. Our body was made from dust of the ground and returns to dust when we are dead and our body decompost. Returning to dust is not the same place as She'owl or hades where is define as the "underworld" were the soul of the dead goes.

Where did you get that from the Bible? I could only find Rev 8:3 and it doesn't say "the souls of the saints" nor the "heavenly altar". Beneath the main altar was the place where the blood sacrifice were poor.
To my understanding...all that died (saints or the wicked) their physical body return to dust, their soul goes to hades, and their spirit returns to God. I don't believe that the soul of the saints went to a special place. But for sure God knows everyone and when the first resurrection time will come, like Christ resurrection, the soul of the saints will be delivered from she'owl--hades.

Thanks a lot for your critique Elle. It was very helpful.

You spoke of the difference in Gen 2:7 between two Hebrew words which are both translated “spirit” in English and make the important point that in this text the word means “conscious intellect”, and isn't a reference to the Holy Spirit. Good point.

In my first post I avoided commenting on the distinction between the spirit of life that God breathes into each of us and the Holy Spirit. There is clearly a difference but exactly what that is is hard to define. At this point in time I lean towards the view that there is a direct relationship between them. In the same way that all life in the universe is apparently sustained directly from the throne of God, (the “breath of life”, also Rev 22:1), in a similar way every man, woman and child is enlightened by the Holy Spirit. John 1:9. So with the breath of life that comes to each of us also comes a measure of enlightenment imparted by the same Spirit.

The fact that we “live and move and have our being” in God suggests that our very consciousness, our self-awareness, our spirits exist inside the infinite bounds of His Spirit. All created existence and being takes place “in Him” and by Him.

You're right that the carnal mind doesn't receive enlightenment or the things of God. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. I Cor 2:14. But the soul is equally the focus of salvation. The will of God is our sanctification, body, soul and spirit. If that's the case, then the scriptures teach the sanctification of the soul. At conversion, the carnal nature is crucified with Christ, put to death and buried with Him in baptism and we rise from the watery grave, our minds reborn, renewed by the Spirit of life in the soul.

You were asking where I get the idea that the souls of the righteous dead are under the heavenly altar. It's in Revelation 6:9. They are pictured there as crying to God for justice on their persecutors. Because this is clearly symbolic, most assume that their location is also symbolic but one of the rules of interpretation is to assume things are literal unless a literal interpretation would conflict with other scriptures.

Thanks again!

Your openness tells me (correct me if I'm wrong) -- that the Lord has worked in correcting some errors in you in the past that made you more open. 5 or 7 years ago in the Adventist Online forum some brother of ours corrected my view(which came from what I learned in the Church) of Gen 2:7. At that time, I wasn't as open as you and I did dish out a share of arguments with plenty of scriptures -- of course. But after reflecting on it, I knew deep down he was right and it took some years for me to digest this. Today I'm more open in being corrected because I've been corrected so many times by others or by my own studies; that I know I still have many erronous understanding of scriptures that needs correcting or refining.

So it's very encouraging to read your respond and to know a brother that is also open. I believe it is the best place to be instead of defending Church or EGW or our own pet doctrines-interpretation. I think knowing God's interpretation is more important than any other interpretation.


Yes I agree there is clearly a difference and yet a relationship between them. I was reflecting on that after reading the texts in Job about Nechamah. What I got is God is Spirit. Whatever He does is an act of Him == who is Spirit. From the creation of the universe, from non-living things to all living things of earth -- it all involves Him - who is Spirit- who substain and direct all things at many levels. But we all also know that most things created is not endowed with His Holy Spirit.

I think dirt or "dust"(prime elements) doesn't have a spirit; but somehow man made from the dust of the earth does. And it is within man's spirit that God conceive us with His Holy Spirit at some point of time in our lifetime. Many men(or woman)'s spirit are NOT conceived by the Holy Spirit in their lifetime. So the spirit of man that is not conceive is in some state of not being impregnated but have the potential. And that's how I can sort things a little to understand.


Rev 22:1 is talking about the water of life. And yes it is a form to susbtain life.

I appreciate these comment and I had to revise my thinking 30 min later. I think symbolism like "breath", "water", "light" all show different spiritual dimension and specific meaning. And yes to susbtain life. We can live less long with the breath and more without light.

I would need to do more reflection as it is not something I've considered before. But if I were to give it a immediate guesstimate of what I think it means : Breath is quite important to keep this body and mind operational. Light enlighten our path so to know the way. The water is for washing.

The time of history in Rev 22 cannot be ignore and need to be considered to know how water is used to substain life in Rev 22:1. I think it is after the Great Jubilee when all debt will be canceled and have return to their estate (==the incorruptible body).

So the water is necessary for washing both inside and out. So in a spiritual sense, at the point in history of Rev 22 -- all the saints will have access to pure water that comes out of the throne of God to keep us clean for eternity. The pure water could be some more of God's word but beyond the teachings of the Bible. I'm sure there will be still lots to learn from God after the completion of the plan of salvation.

The fire is one of the symbolism of the Holy Spirit that its job is to refine us or burn off that carnal flesh as we learn more about God's ways-laws. I'm wondering if there's any mention of fire after the completion of the plan of salvation. I wonder if the fire form is only necessary before the plan is completed.


John 1:9 talking about the light of God, I think that light has shown since the beginning of Adam. But it requires a conceived spirit or mature spirit to understand it. John 1:5 says " the light shinneth in darkness and darkness comprehended it not". and again in John 1:10 it repeats by saying "He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not." So this tells me from the beginning man did not understand God because he was created a living soul.

This doesn't mean God created man imperfect. To me it means that God created man a babe without the knowledge, the maturity and having to grow into it like any other babies. So to me, it was in God's perfect plan from the beginning to transform us from a living soul to a quickening spirit.

1Cor 15:45 "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit." I know this text is referring to Adam and Christ who embodies all mankind; but I think it also lay out the transformation we need to go through from Adam to Christ.

It would be a good reflection to compare the texts about the light after the plan is over versus before. Just quickly -- Gen 1 Before the light is lit in the midst of darkness. Rem 22:5 -- After there's no more nights and no need of the sun. This show different levels of spiritual awareness to me.


I think consciousness and most of our self-awareness comes from the soul (physical mind) and not our spirit. Our soul and our spirit do not agree with each other because they see things differently. The soul has to die daily to the authority given to our spirit. It is our spirit that receives the things of God including personal instruction of what we need to do from day to day. When our soul is not submitted (a form of death) to our spirit, and want to do its own ways...then the soul has usurped the position and authority given to our spirit.

I will talk more about this in the "A Proposed Change to our 28 Fundamental Beliefs" were JAK and yourself our touching this subject.

But I do agree very much with your statement that "our spirits exist inside the infinite bounds of His Spirit". Nicely put. Also I agree with your last sentenced above. I would add to it that when we were created, we came from Him as Rom 11:36 says "For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen."


I do agree. Actually the sanctification part is related to the soul only because it is the soul that sins. Scriptures talks about justification that happens in the spirit and the body is glorified.

So the order of the plan of salvation is reveal in the Feasts. Passover is the justification by faith step that happens in our spirit when we are conceived by the Holy Spirit and a new creature is conceived within us. 1Tim 3:16

Pentecost is the sanctification(aka purification) process of the soul where we learn to hear&obey God's voice who teaches us His laws and once learned will write them on our heart.

Once arrived at the final step --Tabernacle-- this is when our body gets glorified with an incorruptible and immortal body at the resurrection. So this is called the glorification step.


As far as my understanding goes, the full process doesn't happen at conversion. The conversion is only the first step of the process. To my understanding the carnal nature is broken in 3 steps that is explained in the 3 compartment of the sanctuary. There is 3 veils separating each compartment. These veils represents the ripping of the carnal flesh(Heb 10:20). Maybe we can view the carnal flesh as the soul -- I don't know right now and I need more reflection.

But as far as I understand, at the conversion we break the first veil that leads us into Passover (==outer court) where we learn about our justification by faith.

We won't pass to the 2nd veil until we had grown well and fully in the first compartment and been fed with plenty of milk. Once we are mature enough and ready to move to the next compartment, the Lord lead us through the second veil (another ripping of the flesh -- ouch not a pleasant experience at all) and enter Pentecost(==Holy place). As said above, this is when the sanctification process happens at the level of the soul as we learn God's law. It is at the level of the soul that we sin. Sin is the transgression of the law. So at this level we learn about God's law and obedience.

Then once we have finished growing fully in that stage and ready to move to the final stage, we break through the final veil (ouch again) that brings us to Tabernacle(Most Holy place). Here we exercise our priesthood gifts and calling until our bodies get glorified with the others at the resurrection when we will rise with an uncorruptible and immortal body.

So to my understanding we break our carnal flesh (the soul?) more and more as we progress through our life experience of passing through these 3 spiritual steps.


Tx. I knew it was somewhere but I couldn't find it quickly. Yes, these souls were victims of injustice starting from Abel. So the text says more were to be added to their numbers. But overall, to me the fact God "hears"(or remember) their outcry says, that God is not going to forget these victims ...I think all these injustice will be addressed most likely at the Great White throne Judgment.

I think the fact Rev 9:6 uses the word "souls" to describes these individuals is because their "spirits" is already with God when they died. Their souls is still in the underworld -- hades.

Since this text describes these souls being under the altar where the blood were pour on the ground; right now I'm suspecting there's a connection between the soul and the life(the breath) that is found in the blood. But Neshamah is not found in these prime laws about not eating blood.

God was very direct in telling us from Genesis not to eat the blood of animals. It's blood needed to be pour out on the ground because the life(breath) was in the blood. That's what Lev 17:10-14 says. If anyone ate blood they were cut off from the congregation.

I do believe like any other law that this is very symbolic too. Eating blood or being "blood thirsty" is being like the Edomites who were eager to shed blood and did not hate blood (Eze 35:6). You are guilty of spiritually eating blood when your ways is to take advantage of others and take their livelihood(life) from them. The Edomites did it literally with the sword; but we do it also more slowly by abusing our brothers. I think this type of attitude towards our brothers is symbolically like eating their blood (taking their life away from them).

That's why in one of Jesus Parable it says if once the master returns and founds his servants that he put in charge -- beating other servants; they will be cut off and will have their inheritance with the unbelievers. (Luk 12:45-46) I think this is a parallele of the judgment of people guilty of spiritually eating the blood of our brothers. We need to be like Jesus who gave his blood(life) for others. He is our example and this should be our attitude towards all mankind. We should not follow the Edomites examples of taking the blood(life) away from others.

A day or two ago I was reading Sarah Peck, an Adventist teacher from the mid 20th century. She viewed the soul and spirit the opposite way from my first post: the soul as the living conscious being and the spirit as the character. And she had some scriptural support so she may be closer to the truth than I am.

It does seem that the soul or being is what is at stake. The body is the temple of the soul and spirit. The mind should be distinguished from the brain. The brain itself has no consciousness. The mind is seated in the brain. It has consciousness. So when the Apostle says to be transformed by the renewing of your minds, what is he referring to as the mind? Not the brain. He's referring to the soul and spirit. The mind is the combination of both.

But the rest of the physical body also greatly influences the mind. If we were brains only like a computer, we'd have no cravings for food, friends, family, lusts and passions. The human body is a major part of what makes us human. And being made in the image of God, we can be sure that God has a divine body and it is an important part of what makes Him who He is. For example, Christ in His glorified body had scars that could be touched, a mouth that spoke and ate food, eyes that saw both physically and supernaturally, a face that smiled, etc.

Monks and stoics have attempted to purify the flesh by mortifying the body but in the atonement of Christ, the body is sanctified. This doesn't mean we have holy flesh but rather that the noble aspects of our physical being, our passions, emotions, desires and appetites are sanctified by the blood of Christ and His ministry in the Holy Place. And so sanctification involves all three aspects of our being, body soul and spirit which are a mysterious, unique, valuable unit.

Thank you for this discussion and the chance to interact with you on this subject. It is quite helpful to me to understand this subject better.

I already notice one of my lack of understanding below. I would like to correct that.

Before proceeding I would like to say, I've been reflecting on this for 5-7 years; and it took years to digest many concepts letting the Holy Spirit confirm, correct, or add. It is healthy and necessary for anyone to "chew their cud" before swallowing any [spiritual] food giving a chance for the Holy Spirit to confirm, discard, or refine any part of it. So please don't take my respond to your post as I'm pressuring you to accept my view. I'm responding because your post broadens my thinking on the subject. Probably it would be more brotherly of me to not respond.


I already had as an understanding that all 3 parts (body, soul, and spirit (1Th 5:23)) had each their own mind. But in regard of consciousness and self-awareness I mainly view this as pertaining to the soul. Despite this is somewhat true as it is the soul thoughts that we are more conscious about, I now think that the body and the spirit also have consciousness and self-awareness because it has its own mind.

I agree

I'm wondering if this is false. I'll elaborate below.

Yes this is true when referring to the mind of our soul and probably the mind of our body. But the mind of our spirit this is not true.

Here's my thoughts. For the body -- I think the brain is also the place (or part of it) of its mind when you come to consider the sympathic and parasympathic systems that involves many bodily functions. These are rooted in the brain and yet our soul's consciousness doesn't pick up on these. The soul will suffer the effect and be aware something is wrong when these system are malfunctioning or you are under an intense fight or flee situation that you will feel the effect. But I don't believe the sympathetic and parasympathetic systems are orchestrated by the mind of the soul. These are continual bodily responsibility and processes.

I wouldn't be surprise to find out that at the cellular level the mind of the body is there also as I remember in the years at Weimar studying health under Dr.Lee that he had that sort of understanding; plus reading other material talking about that. But that's a little bit over my head right now.

I do believe the body has its own mind and consciousness; yet it is something that the soul, in part, is mostly unaware of.

I say "in part|" as we also have the 5 senses (hear, see, touch...) that are experienced by the body that is perceived by specific location of the brain. I think these also pertains to the body. The soul does perceives the bodily senses very clearly. The soul uses these bodily senses received by the brain and process this information into its own intellectual thinking(mind) and makes decisions (that he shouldn't do) and command the body to do certain actions. And then we know that memories are stored in a specific location of the brain. Memories of the body and soul only???

So if my understanding is correct, I see that the brain is shared by both the body and the soul.

But there's a third mind -- consciousness and self-awareness -- that is found within our spirit which is call "the mind of Christ" (1 Cor 2:16) because our spirit agrees with everything of God -- like Christ agreed with everything of the Father. This mind of our spirit is the most important of the 3 entities we possess in our being; because its awareness and consciousness is perfect and based on truth. Whereas the mind, consciousness, and self-awareness of our soul is in enmity with God. The body suffers the consequences of the bad decisions of our soul and the pollution in our environment.


Could you bring the key texts she uses to view the spirit as the character? I would be interested in seeing those.

Bringing character into this study will make things more complicated. With what I understand about our body unique DNA imprinting; I would say that character is found in the body too. Then when thinking about "evil character" then shouldn't character be found in the soul also? I haven't studied this; but isn't character dependable to the spirit we are moved by? including the evil spirits. I'm not disputing that character isn't found also in our spirit; but I wouldn't say that's its only place its found.

Then I'm sure that at the resurrection that each individual will retain its unique character for the New Creature created in you is a composite of "earth"(our DNA uniqueness) and "heaven" (the Father's seed).

However, from Sarah Pecks conclusion, I do not believe that she understood what Paul was saying about the difference of soul and spirit in 1Cor 2:9-16. I think it is worth viewing these texts closer as I believe that Paul had that understanding better than Sarah.

A Closer look at 1Cor 2:9-16 -- the differences of soul and spirit

Paul brings the differences of Greeks "wisdom" and God's wisdom and how it may be perceived in the first 2 chapters of 1 Corinthians.

Greeks were dualistic believing in man having a material body and a spiritual soul. So Paul presented a different truth that the Greeks needed to understand the difference between soul and spirit since they combined the two together. They needed to understand that their soul couldn't understand spiritual things. (1 Cor 2:14) Because if the world princes would of understood (via their soul consciousness)...they wouldn't of crucified Christ (1Cor 2:6-8).

Then Paul continues in v.9 by referring to Isaiah 64:4 saying,

9 … Things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard, and which have not entered the heart of man, all that God has prepared for those who love Him.

Paul is speaking quite literally that the perception of our eyes and ears cannot perceive the revelation that comes by the Spirit of God. As I mentioned above, our soulish minds obtain its knowledge through the senses and respond to it. However our spiritual mind obtains knowledge, not through the physical senses like our eyes and ears; but by an inner revelation from the Spirit of God that is receive thru our inner spirit that "searches all things, even the depths of God".

1Cor 2:10 "For to us God revealed them through the spirit; for the spirit searches all things, even the depths of God."

So the person untrained in spiritual matters, obtains knowledge through the body parts which makes the soul dependent upon how the body senses things. So that's why the soul is said to be "carnal", "fleshy" or "natural" because it's knowledge source comes from the body and it empowers the body for its knowledge.

When Eve "SAW that the tree was good for food and was a delight to the eyes" and acted upon it...is when she empowered the body for its source of knowledge and the soul became carnal.

I'm not changing subject but emphasizing 1Cor 2:10 with another text.

Remember in the other post in reference to "the souls under the altar" in Rev 9:6 I said the following :

Well I was looking for the wrong word, I should of looked for Nephesh the Hebrew word for SOUL which is found in Lev 17:10 "For the life H5315 [Nephesh, soul] of the flesh is in the blood:" The KJV above rendered Nephesh as "life"; but it is more accuratly rendered as "Soul". So a literal rendering of this text would be "the fleshy soul is in the blood".

Last time I elaborated that the spiritual meaning of Lev 17:10 "to not eat the blood" was to not abuse our brother by taking their life away from them. We should be like Christ who gave his life for others. This is true at the level between individuals. However, there can be other spiritual meaning at other levels.

So let's consider this law at the level of inside an individual like between the soul and the spirit. When making a decision or conclusion -- we are not to be in agreement or eat what our fleshy soul suggest but rather eat or live by what our inner spirit says. In another word to breath in the revelation of the Holy Spirit that gives life to the blood where the soul resides. Not the other way around in eating what the senses of the body gives to the soul and take that as our source of life or breath.

Let's continue with Paul's thoughts where he says in 1Cor 2:10 that it is the spirit of man which “searches all things” in its quest to know the mind of God and His plan. Some translation capitalizes the first "Spirit" word in that text to denote God's Spirit. But God's Spirit doesn't need to search God's Spirit to know the truth for it already knows all things...whereas it is the spirit of man that inquires of the Spirit of God.

So Paul makes this distinction in the next verse. 1 Corinthians 2:11 says,

11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.

God reveals all things to the spirit of man for it is capable of understanding spiritual things. It is the mind of the spirit of man alone that can receive revelation from above without rejecting it as foulishness as the soul does. Whereas the mind of the soul is really the foul(moron) as it thinks of itself both spiritual and intellectually enlighten.

In 1cor 2:12,13 Paul talks about the "spirit of the world" vs the "spirit of who is from God". The "spirit of the world" is different from the spirit inside of man for Paul does not contrast this with the soul. But rather there's a world spirit that teaches us knowledge by "combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words" that doesn't come from God. Basically, the "spirit of the world" is the wrong spirit that causes us to seek knowledge from another source other than the Holy Spirit. Even a believer, especially a young in faith, is prone to do so. When it does, it is certainly the mind of its soul doing this and not the mind of its spirit.

Paul conclude with 1Cor 2:14-16
14 "But a natural [soulish] man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised [anakrino]. 15 But he who is spiritual [the new man] appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no man. 16 For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ."

The mind of the soul -- the carnal mind -- is not capable of accepting revelation directly from the Spirit of God for it is foolishness to him. Because the soul ..."cannot understand them". I don't believe the sanctified soul will be able also. It is NOT the job or position of the soul to understand the things of God because it is not equipped or created to do so. Revelation from above must be “spiritually appraised” by the spirit of man. The Greek word used is anakrino that means “to examine, judge, investigate, interrogate, to sift through a series of things in order to distinguish.”

As Paul said earlier in v.10 it is the spirit of man (not the soul) that examine the revelation from the Holy Spirit, for it is the only “I” or mind capable of making sense of it for the "I" from the soul will pronounce it as foolishness. The thing the soul must do is to submit to the spirit of man.

So the mind of our spirit (or our spiritual man or the second "I") has the ability to understand all things and yet our spirit cannot be appraised by our soul (the soulish man or our first "I").

Paul concludes in v. 16 with a reference to Isaiah 40:14, which says,

14 With whom did He consult and who gave Him understanding? And who taught Him in the path of justice and taught Him knowledge, and informed Him of the way of understanding?

God needs no counselor to help Him understand truth or knowledge. So since the new creature in us within our spirit have the mind of Christ, will understand what God says who is the Source of all truth. It's not the mind of the soul that is going to teach the mind of our spirit spiritual truth.

So to rap things up, the mind of the soul(the first "I") because it cannot understand spiritual matters (1cor 2:14) leads us to war against the law of God; whereas the mind of our spirit(the second "I") leads us to agree with the law (Romans 7:22).

Scriptures says the body is the temple of the Holy spirit. I've never heard that it is the temple of the soul and spirit. We can view the body is the outer court of the temple. The soul is the holy place and the spirit is the Most Holy Place.


I think you are in the right path thinking that the brain is different from the "mind". As I noted above, I'm incline to think with the reasons giving above that the brain is also part of the mind of the body which differ from the mind of our soul. Then I don't believe that the mind of our spirit is seated in our physical brain. I believe that the mind of our spirit is invisible and has no form because it is spiritual in nature like our heavenly Father.

What I think Paul meant in Rom 12:2 by saying "but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind" that he's referring to the mind of the soul. As I don't think it is the renewing of our body mind especially in the sympathetic or parasympathetic level which is mostly imperceptable to our soulish mind. Nor do I think Paul meant the renewing of our spirit mind as this mind has the mind of Christ that needs no renewing as it is already perfect and does not sin.

As you noted at the beginning of our discussion, the soul is in sanctification. To me body, soul, and spirit denotes the order of things God created us to live. The body is to be in submission to our soul, and our soul is to be in submission to our spirit. It is the soul that sins Ezk 18:4. And it is the soul that needs to die. So this might mean we are transformed as the mind of our soul is being sanctified by submitting (==form of death) to the mind of our spirit. The soul needs to stop usurping the position of our spirit. The soul have an important job; but that does not include to understand spiritual things and make the decision. It is the spirit job to do that. To me the sanctification of the soul is putting it back to its proper position as it was intended by God.


I agree


I view Gen 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them". There's no reference that this means He has a divine body like us. The text qualify that we resemble Him in the dimension that He made us Male and Female. God is also Male(Jehovah) and Female(the Lord Almighty [Chadday, that comes from the root chad that means breast]). I believe Adam was both male and female before the female was taken out of him and then became seperate but also in one flesh.

I think Ellen White also says God has no body. I think the bible says the same. Having a body pertains to earthly creatures not celestials. Despite God and angels can manifest themselves with a physical body when they appear to man; this doesn't mean they have a body. However Jesus, who came on earth as a man was in actuality the union of man with the seed of God starting from conception. Which Jesus set the pattern of the new creation in us that is also a conception of the union of earthly being with the seed of God.


Christ's body wasn't glorified until the resurrection. He proved to the disciples that he wasn't just a spirit as the Sudducenes doctrines believed in that. Christ resurrected body had "flesh and bones" (Luke 24:39). However, Jesus was not limited by physical matter. Jesus could appear and disappear at will. In symbolic language, He "changed clothing" (Ezekiel 44:17-19) from linen to woolen and back to linen. The Priests that could enter the Most Holy Place and stand before God wore linen. But when leaving that chamber his linen clothing needed to be put aside and change his clothing to wool so to minister to the people. So prophetically this shows what body we will have at post-resurrection. Jesus demonstrated this as he appear in flesh & bones (symbolically He change into his wool clothing) and disappear into being spirit (He put "his linen back on").

I think the concept of holy flesh comes from man's false view of trying to purify the soul or make the soul spiritual thinking it can bring the soul and its body to perfection before the resurrection.

It's interesting isn't it that the word "soul" is the same word translated "life" in Lev 17:11.

Yes, 2 Cor 2 is a good place to anchor our study on the nature of man, body, soul and spirit. You make some good observations.

I agree that women are equally made in the image of God. Women are the equal of men, wonderful creatures in that regard, much more beautiful and graceful than men. Men have the sterner virtues. We complement each other and as we do we more fully reflect His image.

About the body of God, we automatically think of a limited body but things are different in the greater reality of the spiritual. God inhabits eternity and is everywhere. His body could be thought of as the ever-expanding universe because he occupies it and he is omni-present and we are in Him. In Him we live and move and have our being. Pantheism says God is in the stone, the bird, the sunlight, but the Bible says the Lord was not in the wind or fire and yet He is everywhere. He is not nature, He is the God of nature.

I'll look for the text but I remember it conveying the idea that spirit beings have spirit bodies. The reason that concept is central to true religion is that all intelligent life forms, physical and spiritual, fallen and unfallen are unique individual intelligences, each having a free will and are not a mere expression of the cosmic conscience. The body, physical or spiritual, is the envelope that encapsulates the being distinguishing the being from others and from its Creator.

I've seen this too many times where the English translation mislead the correct meaning. That's why I have a strong habit to check the Hebrew or Greek source word.

That text still intrigue me and do not claim to understand it fully how the fleshy soul is found in the blood. I had long viewed the soul was in the mind of the brain based on the deduction that the intellectual process happens in the brain; but this study showed me that I need to review this as I now see the brain more being the mind of the body than the soul. So I appreciate this.

Notice in the text above the atonement is towards the soul -- not the spirit nor the body. We see this concept repeated quite often in scriptures. So my view is that our spirit is justified at Passover during our conception by the Holy Spirit. Then our souls gets thru a sanctification process during Pentecost when we hear God's voice personally who teaches us His laws. With our final destination being at Tabernacle when our body gets glorified at the resurrection.


Body, Soul, and Spirit parallele with the Temple

When I re-read what I wrote, I saw that my memory of what scripture said failed me again. I wanted to correct the below :

My respond above is wrong and not Biblical. Yours was better than mine.
1Cor 3:16 says "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"

The text says "that ye are the temple of God". We are body, soul and spirit...so I would say that all 3 entities form the temple of God.

In the Tabernacle, the Spirit-presence of God is manifested in the Most Holy place of the Temple. So if we do a paralelle of the temple that the outer court is our body, the Holy place our soul, and the Most Holy place our spirit; then that goes with what Paul says in 2Cor 2 that it is within our spirit that the Spirit of God communicates with us.

I wasn't making that point but simply that Gen 1:27 qualify that the creation of man in God's image is based on the fact that He created Adam both male and female, and not based on a physical body. "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them".

Eve was pulled out of Adam sometime after this initial creation. Whether she is equal before sin and placed in submission to Adam after sin is another topic. But let me quickly summarize my view.

I do believe woman are equal too. All these arguments about woman equality or should not be pastors and etc... is missing the point that scriptures is written in symbolic language using physical or natural occurrences that God employs to teach us spiritual matters. They use scripture literally especially in the Torah to prove their points when Paul said clearly that the law(Torah) is spiritual.

God still used the existent relationship between men and woman after the fall where men were dominant despite it was faulty and very carnal -- to express spiritual matters in symbolic language.
Woman (who symbolically represents a non-believer) needs to be conceived by the seed of the Holy Spirit. Only mature [spiritual] men who can pass the [Holy] seed can conceive a woman (== a non-believer). Paul uses that same language when he say that he conceive Timothy. Timothy is not a woman; but Paul still conceived him because Timothy was a non-believer. Then as long as the new convert(either woman or man) is young in the faith; he is considered a "woman" that needs to submit to the "men" who are mature in the faith. So these mature "men" or immature "woman" can be either a man or a woman. So a physical woman can be a spiritual mature "man" who can pass the Holy seed like Paul did to Timothy in Biblical symbolic language.

Yes His body could be view that way.


I was thinking of that text also and wanted to quote it but the post was already way too long. If I would of done that, then I would of corrected myself then. That often happens as I do a study and take the time to look at the scriptures as I cannot rely on my memories which is often needs correction.

1Cor 15:40 "There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another."
So I stand corrected. You are right in your view and I was wrong. TY for this correction.

The Greek word soma for body has a broad application; so the way you expressed it in the underlined section of your post, is very valid. I'm sure there's more to "celestial bodies" than what we currently think we understand today.