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The King of the North #187937
12/01/18 11:45 AM
12/01/18 11:45 AM
Rick H  Offline OP
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I came across a study on the King of the North by Donn W. Leatherman of Southern called "Adventist University Adventist Interpretation of Daniel 10-12:A Diagnosis and Prescription".
Its very good on how Adventist have been struggling with this issue, here is what he writes:

"The 'king of the south' is understood to refer to the nation of Egypt. The 'king of the north' was whatever power controlled the area north of Palestine, which, by the end of Daniel 11, was understood to be the Ottoman Empire. These interpreters expected the culmination of human history and the return of Christ to occur when Turkey, having failed in its attempts to reestablish control over Egypt, and beset by enemies from the North and East (possibly Russia and Persia), removed its capital from Istanbul to Jerusalem.

Foremost among the exponents of this interpretation was Uriah Smith, whose Thoughts Critical and Practical on the Book of Daniel, published in 1881, had extensive influence on subsequent generations of Adventists. Later editions of his works, which combined his book on Daniel with a similar volume on the Revelation, are less specific regarding the interpretation of the latter part of Daniel 11. This is particularly true of the editions printed after Smith's death. These later editions state that the prophecy of verse 45 centers in that power known as the king of the north. It is the power that shall hold the territory possessed originally by the king of the north. Clearly, after the demise of the Ottoman Empire, Smith's original interpretation seemed dubious.

Another Adventist, who had adopted views similar to those of Smith, was Stephen N. Haskell,3 the popularity of whose volume on Daniel rivaled that of Smith's work for some time after its publication in 1901. Other Adventist books expressing similar views include those of J. Grant Lamson (1909),4 Max Hill (1915),5 and O. A. Johnson (1919).6 One might have expected this interpretive tradition, especially the parts involving Turkey, to have died with the Ottoman Empire, but it persisted in the anonymous Two Great Prophecies (1925),7 and the works of M. H. Brown (1926)8 and W. H. Wakeham (1930),9 and even after
the Second World War in the works of E. A. Nixon (1945)10 and Walter E. Straw (1947).11 Without attempting to exegete the book of Daniel, other Adventist writers from this era reflected similar views in their works. These include Alonzo T. Jones (1900)12 and Arthur G. Daniels (1917).

After World War II many interpreters adopted a more radical revision of the earlier position represented by Uriah Smith, Stephen Haskell, and the great majority of Adventist writers of the early twentieth century. Beginning with Edwin R. Thiele,19 some Adventists identified Rome not only in verses 14 through 35, but in the last 10 verses of the chapter as well. Thiele's explanations of the last 6 verses of the chapter are somewhat vague historically, but nevertheless apply this passage to the papacy without hesitation.20 Thiele also differs from earlier interpreters in applying vss. 29-30 to the Crusades and the medieval church, rather than to the sack of Rome by the barbarian kingdoms.21 Thus Thiele's interpretation of Daniel 11:29-45 has a somewhat later historical framework and omits reference to the French revolution and to the Ottoman Empire. A similar position was adopted by Louis Were in 1949.22 Were makes no attempt to exegete the entire chapter; his focus is more narrow, but he does assert that the references to literal (i.e., pagan) Rome end in Daniel 11:30, and that vss.31-45 describe spiritual Rome.23 References to the 'king of the north' in this part of the prophecy point to the papacy:
The power brought to view in Dan. 11:40-45 must be one whose activities concern the people of God such has been Daniel's previous presentations of the work of the papacy.24

In a 1955 publication, George McCready Price returned to the essential position of Uriah Smith regarding the interpretation of Daniel 11:29-32, but accepted the views of later interpreters who applied vss. 36-39 to the papacy. Price denies emphatically that these verses can be made to refer to revolutionary France.25 Furthermore, the last six verses of the chapter are also held to describe the demise of the papacy. Egypt, the king of the south, represents atheistic science. Price acknowledges two possible scenarios: one in which there are two major actors (the 'king of the north' and the 'king of the south' and another in which there are three major actors, with the third person pronouns of verses 40
to 45 refer to some other entity. The differences between these interpretations Price holds to be slight, since both views agree in saying that the main world power dealt with here is the Roman papacy, . . .26

The last three verses of the chapter receive only brief comments. Price denies that the geographic references should be literally understood, states that parts of the passage are yet unfulfilled, and encourages the reader to wait until these passages are clarified by unfolding events before insisting on a specific interpretation.27

Robert Brinsmead (1960) concurs in the identification of the 'king of the north' with the papal system and the 'king of the south' with atheism.28 He sees in the final verses of Daniel 11 a conflict between two opposing ideologies, Babylonian and Egyptian. . . . Babylonian is to profess to be a Christian, to have a form of godliness, but to
deny the power thereof. Egyptian is to repudiate the Christian religion and to deny the very existence of God.29 Clearly, the major focus of the closing verses of Daniel 11 in this interpretation is still on the demise of the papacy.

The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary declines to speak decisively on this passage. In verse after verse the reader is presented with tentative speculation (Some see specific reference here . . .) or alternative and mutually contradictory views (Others suggest . . .).30 The editors suggest two possible interpretations of verse 40: that the 'king of the north' is Turkey, and that the 'king of the north' is the papacy.31 No comment is offered on vss. 41-44, and the comment on vs. 45 consists primarily of a warning from James White to be cautious in offering interpretations of unfulfilled prophecy.32

The view that the 'king of the north' represents the papacy and that the final portion of Daniel 11 describes the eschatological demise of papal power is also supported (though with important differences in interpretation) by both Desmond Ford (1978) and Mervyn Maxwell (1981). Ford applies Daniel 11:29,30 to the evacuation of Antiochus IV from Egypt at the command of the Roman Senate. In subsequent passages he sees intimations of both the Antiochene desecration of the Jerusalem temple and the anti-Jewish and anti-Christian activities of Rome. Thus Ford holds the possibility for multiple fulfillmentsof these passages...Ford applies vss. 36-39 to the papacy, but is reluctant to be very specific on
vss. 40-45. He remarks that at this point "we . . . enter upon delicate ground, as this is obviously in the realm of unfulfilled prophecy." He does insist (against Price and Bunch) that there are only two powers, not three, in the conflict described in these verses.34 He associates the 'king of the south' with atheism, or "some latter-day movement opposed to religion."

Maxwell, whose interpretations are significantly closer to Adventist tradition, associates all of Daniel 11:29-45 with the papacy, specifically identifying the last six verses of the chapter with the "demise of Roman Christianity."36 Nevertheless, he is considerably less specific in his interpretation of this passage than in his treatment of earlier chapters, or even of earlier parts of this chapter. He gives a detailed verse-by-verse interpretation of Daniel 11: 1-16. His comments on subsequent verses are more general, and are not always in canonical
order.37...."https://digitalcommons.andrews.edu/jats/vol7/iss1/7/

Last edited by Rick H; 03/04/22 08:30 PM. Reason: Grammar
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #187941
12/01/18 09:15 PM
12/01/18 09:15 PM
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Charity  Offline
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Thanks for this Rick. Interesting ideas some of them. I'll look into it some more.

In the mean time here's a quote from Ellen White that if Ford and others had taken to heart they would have put the primary fulfillment of Daniel 11:30 - 45 in the future:
Quote:
The prophecy in the eleventh of Daniel has nearly reached its complete fulfillment. Much of the history that has taken place in fulfillment of this prophecy will be repeated. In the thirtieth verse a power is spoken of that “shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.” [Verses 31-36, quoted.] {13MR 394.1}
She wrote that over a hundred years ago and it is still yet to be fulfilled. If Gates is right, we're on the cusp of it now.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #187942
12/01/18 09:34 PM
12/01/18 09:34 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: mark
If Gates is right, we're on the cusp of it now.
There is that word again, "IF". He could be right for the wrong reason, and time setting when it does not happen on time is damaging to the whole work of the church. THIS makes much more sense of a method of interpretation that David Gates or you Mark.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #187949
12/03/18 04:32 AM
12/03/18 04:32 AM
ProdigalOne  Offline
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Here is a fascinating study of Daniel 11, by Tim Roosenberg:
https://youtu.be/Q1Zzjyt88TQ


"...I will not forget you.
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."

Isaiah 49:15-16
Re: The King of the North [Re: ProdigalOne] #187963
12/04/18 12:24 AM
12/04/18 12:24 AM
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Originally Posted By: ProdigalOne
Here is a fascinating study of Daniel 11, by Tim Roosenberg:
https://youtu.be/Q1Zzjyt88TQ


I think I watched that a while ago. Doesn't he say the King of the South is Islam?

Re: The King of the North [Re: ProdigalOne] #187976
12/06/18 11:49 AM
12/06/18 11:49 AM
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Prodigal, when I saw this is a new lecture I watched the first half hour. He makes a good case as always for his view of the King of the North and South. One reason you may have posted Tim's video is because it agrees with my thread on the Euphrates and the overthrow of Babylon. Tim expects radical Islam to anger the King of the North and overrun the Middle East in the near future which is what I also say about it. But do you recall whether he says anything about verses 29 and 30 in Daniel 11 and a major military humiliation of Christian forces? If I remember right, he puts that in the past, but in my view we should be on high alert for this between now and the spring. This precedes the final western invasion of the Middle East imo.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #187979
12/06/18 12:22 PM
12/06/18 12:22 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: mark
but in my view we should be on high alert for this between now and the spring.
And if it is not in the spring? then summer? Fall? What timeline will you invent then?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: The King of the North [Re: Charity] #187983
12/08/18 12:40 AM
12/08/18 12:40 AM
Rick H  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Charity
Thanks for this Rick. Interesting ideas some of them. I'll look into it some more.

In the mean time here's a quote from Ellen White that if Ford and others had taken to heart they would have put the primary fulfillment of Daniel 11:30 - 45 in the future:
Quote
The prophecy in the eleventh of Daniel has nearly reached its complete fulfillment. Much of the history that has taken place in fulfillment of this prophecy will be repeated. In the thirtieth verse a power is spoken of that “shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.” [Verses 31-36, quoted.] {13MR 394.1}
She wrote that over a hundred years ago and it is still yet to be fulfilled. If Gates is right, we're on the cusp of it now.


As James White told Uriah Smith, "caution" especially with David Gates. Now I found more history on the Adventist view, very interesting:

"History of the Churchs Teaching on the King of the North.

Three Main Periods

1. 1846-1871 The King of the North said to be the Papacy.

There was general agreement on this during this time. James White and Uriah Smith both taught it. Uriah Smith applied Daniel 11:45 to the Papacy. See his editorial in the Review and Herald May 13, 1862 under the title, 'Will the Pope Remove the Papal seat to Jerusalem?'

2. 1871-1952. The King of the North said to be Turkey.

Around the beginning of this period Uriah Smith changed his views and began to teach that Daniel 11:36-39 Spoke about Revolutionary France, and that verses 40-45

dealt with Turkey. He wrote up these views in his book 'Thoughts on Daniel and the Revelation', published by the Review and Herald Publishing House of which he was the editor on and off for many years.

James White who was also editor of the Publishing House at times advised caution.

In 1877 war broke out between Turkey and Russia, and Smith preached on the 'Eastern Question' at a camp meeting attended by the Whites, and there the two men

clashed publicly over the issue. In November 15, 1877 an editorial by James White appeared. It was reprinted in the Review and Herald 27 November, 1877, urging caution. Uriah Smith did not heed James Whites appeal, and in the Review and Herald of June 6, 1878 (page 180) he wrote. 'we have reached the preliminary movements of the battle of Armageddon'. See Ministry Magazine November 1967, page29 and onwards.

Reasons why Uriah Smith changed his views. See Ministry Magazine, March 1954
1. In 1798 the Pope was taken prisoner by the French general Berthier, and he died in exile in France. In 1870 the Pope lost all temporal power, after Garibaldi took away the Papal States and united Italy.
2.Secular opinion held that the Papacy would never recover. It seems strange to us now that Smith would go along with this idea since Rev. 13:3 says 'the deadly wound was healed and all the world wondered after the beast'.
3.Introducing France, Turkey and Egypt into Daniel 11, made the prophecies seem to be current to people of those times, and thus more interesting and urgent. Smith did what so many others have done, and that is to try to interpret the prophecies by looking at the newspaper headlines of the day. The danger of doing this is that he forgot that prophecy was not given to us to make us wise about political event, but to let us know what is going to happen to Gods church.
4.At that time Russia seemed ready to close in on Constantinople (now called Istanbul), Smith thought that this move could well lead Turkey to move its capital to Jerusalem.
5.Bishop Newton and Adam Clarke and others had linked Daniel 11:40-45 to the Ottoman Empire.
6.Many scholars of the day also taught that Rev. 9 spoke about the Ottoman Empire and that Rev. 11 dealt with the French Revolution. Thus it was thought that these two chapters were parallel prophecies to those in Dan. 11:36-45.



Reasons why Smiths views became dominate.

a. James White withdrew from the controversy for the sake of peace. See Ministry Magazine Nov. 1967, and Counsels to Writers and Editors,pp.76-77.

b. White did not spell out his views as clearly as did Smith.

c. Smith wrote his views into a book, 'Thoughts on Daniel and Revelation,' which out-lasted any thing White wrote in a magazine.

d. White died in 1881, while Smith served as editor of the Review and Herald for another eight years after Whites death. Thus Smiths views became the dominate interpretation until about 1952.

3. 1952 to the Present. The King of the North again said to be the Papacy.

Reasons for the Return to the Earlier Position. See Ministry Magazine March 1954, p 24.

'Not until the events so confidently predicted did not materialize, and the Papacy, instead of having '?fallen to rise no more,' again became a decisive influence in international affairs with a resumption of temporal power in 1929, did our Bible students undertake a re-examination of our denominational interpretations of these prophecies (Note that this quotation is dealing specifically with Dan. 11:36-39, but that which it states is also true about the King of the North as being the Papacy.)


See Ministry Magazine 1967 p 26. 'The Papacy is generally held to be the King of the North, and Armageddon is understood to be primarily the climatic struggle between the forces of Christ and those of Satan at the end of time. The years between 1924 and 1952 were transition years.'.....http://bereanbiblecorner.com/2014/03/05/the-king-of-the-north/

Last edited by Rick H; 08/13/22 07:12 PM.
Re: The King of the North [Re: Charity] #187998
12/08/18 01:30 PM
12/08/18 01:30 PM
Rick H  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Charity
Originally Posted By: ProdigalOne
Here is a fascinating study of Daniel 11, by Tim Roosenberg:
https://youtu.be/Q1Zzjyt88TQ


I think I watched that a while ago. Doesn't he say the King of the South is Islam?


This vision begins with a reference to Cyrus and ends with God’s people delivered. Like the other chapters in Daniel it is not just past history but covers from his time to the end of the world.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188000
12/08/18 10:12 PM
12/08/18 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted By: Rick H
This vision begins with a reference to Cyrus and ends with God’s people delivered. Like the other chapters in Daniel it is not just past history but covers from his time to the end of the world.

So, from the 50's to today the church has mostly reverted back to the White view (James). Tim Roosenburg's view is similar to James White but he says the King of the North is the combined forces of Christianity, Catholic and Protestant and that the King of the South is radical Islam. That's a better fit with scripture imo. What are your thoughts?

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188001
12/09/18 12:09 AM
12/09/18 12:09 AM
Rick H  Offline OP
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It is the same as the other chapters of Daniel, it is the Papacy. I will see what I can find and post...

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188006
12/09/18 06:38 AM
12/09/18 06:38 AM
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Following the pattern in Daniel's other prophecies, the king of the North in the last verses of Daniel 11, is papal led political Christianity. The verses 31-36 are about the medieval papacy, and we know it will again come to power and repeat it's tyranny and persecution for a short time.
The papacy's political enforcement of religion was always connected with "kings" and state rulers. It was when church and state were separated that the papal beast received it's mortal wound. The papacy as a church leader was restored within a year or so, but the political power was removed.

It's when church and state again unite that wound will be fully healed and terrible persecution will begin again. Revelation 13 shows us who the main "king" or "state power" will be to enforce the papal agenda!

I tend to favor the view that the king of the south (after verse 21) is Islam. Islam rose to power shortly after the papacy rose to political power (538 papacy - 630 Islam)-- and it lost it's power shortly after the papacy lost it's political power (1789 papacy -- 1841 Islam). Now we see both rising again.

Daniel 11 deals with real political powers, and I don't think it changes in the last verses into mere ideologies as some spiritual them.
-- Also, those last verses mention geographical places, and it seems all the focus on old Jerusalem and the popular prophetic interpretations concerning the temple and a Messiah's appearing there, isn't just co-incidence, but a strategy of deception inspired by powers beyond the human realm that will sweep the world into deception as well as chaos. Daniel 11 may well be a warning that anything (as in setting up his tabernacle between the seas on the holy mountain) that happens in old Jerusalem won't last, it isn't the real thing -- it will come to it's end.

But some believe the last king of the south is atheism.
And they could be right--
The movement to remove religion and biblical morality out of public view and public practice is getting pretty aggressive, and it is stirring up the religious powers who are lobbying to get into political power and "right" things through government measures.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Charity] #188019
12/10/18 04:14 PM
12/10/18 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted By: Charity
Prodigal, when I saw this is a new lecture I watched the first half hour. He makes a good case as always for his view of the King of the North and South. One reason you may have posted Tim's video is because it agrees with my thread on the Euphrates and the overthrow of Babylon. Tim expects radical Islam to anger the King of the North and overrun the Middle East in the near future which is what I also say about it. But do you recall whether he says anything about verses 29 and 30 in Daniel 11 and a major military humiliation of Christian forces? If I remember right, he puts that in the past, but in my view we should be on high alert for this between now and the spring. This precedes the final western invasion of the Middle East imo.


I would have to rewatch the entire video to be certain, but I don’t think he covers 29 and 30. Probably, to keep his presentation short he skips ahead to chapter 40.


"...I will not forget you.
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."

Isaiah 49:15-16
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188032
12/11/18 05:54 AM
12/11/18 05:54 AM
Rick H  Offline OP
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This is from another SDA forum...

When it was first brought forth by some that the "King of the North" (KON) was somehow shifted from Rome unto Turkey, James White, a trusted leader in the church knew the KON was indeed Rome, and Uriah Smith, another trusted leader in the church at the time was claiming on a pulpit before the people that the KON was Turkey for some odd reason. He (James) then openly rebuked Uriah before the people to try and prevent confusion being cultivated in the church, and contrary to some that claim otherwise, that act of rebuke is what upset Ellen White enough to make the statement shared below. You will notice that she didn’t disagree with James at all on the KON as some assume and hope to build on by avoiding some basic facts that confirm otherwise. She did however disagree with how he (James) rebuked Smith before the people. It clearly says this in SOP…

•“My husband had some ideas on some points differing from the views taken by his brethren. I was shown that however true his views were, God did not call for him to put them in front before his brethren and create differences of ideas...
Speculative ideas should not be agitated, for there are peculiar minds that love to get some point that others do not accept, and argue and attract everything to that one point, urging that point, magnifying that point, when it is really a matter that is not of vital importance and will be understood differently. Twice I have been shown that everything of a character to cause our ministers to be diverted from the very points now essential for this time should be kept in the background.” -Christ Triumphant 330.3,4

The above is echoed in The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, vol. 4, Page 1067
•The year following White repeats his position at the General Conference of 1878 and, following his impressive succession of “if’s,” comes to certain emphatic conclusions. Differing from Smith’s later views on the latter part of Daniel 11, he found a distinct parallel between this chapter and Daniel 2, 7, and 8. White’s position in 1877 and his line of reasoning are as follows:

“Let us take a brief view of the line of prophecy four times spanned in the book of Daniel. It will be admitted that the same ground is passed over in chapters two, seven, eight, and eleven, with this exception that Babylon is left out of chapters eight and eleven. We first pass down the great image of chapter two, where Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome are represented by the gold, the silver, the brass, and the iron. All agree that these feet are not Turkish but Roman. And as we pass down, the lion, the bear, the leopard, and the beast with ten horns, representing the same as the great image, again all will agree that it is not Turkey that is cast into the burning flame, but the Roman beast. So of chapter eight, all agree that the little horn that stood up against the Prince of princes is not Turkey but Rome. In all these three lines thus far Rome is the last form of government mentioned.

“Now comes the point in the argument upon which very much depends. Does the eleventh chapter of the prophecy of Daniel cover the ground measured by chapters two, seven, and eight? If so, then the last power mentioned in that chapter is Rome.”

And again, in a General Conference session sermon almost a year later, he said:

“There is a line of historic prophecy in chapter eleven, where the symbols are thrown off, beginning with the kings of Persia, and reaching down past Grecia and Rome, to the time when that power ‘shall come to his end, and none shall help him.’ If the feet and ten toes of the metallic image are Roman, if the beast with ten horns that was given to the burning flames of the great day be the Roman beast, if the little horn which stood up against the Prince of princes be Rome, and if the same field and distance are covered by these four prophetic chains, then the last power of the eleventh chapter, which is to ‘come to his end and none shall help him,’ is Rome. But if this be Turkey, as some teach, then the toes of the image of the second chapter are Turkish, the beast with ten horns of the seventh chapter represents Turkey, and it was Turkey that stood up against the Prince of princes of the eighth chapter of Daniel. True, Turkey is bad enough off; but its waning power and its end is the subject of the prophecy of John and not of Daniel.” (From sermon on Sabbath preceding General Conference session.) -The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, vol. 4, Page 1067. 1-5

Notice that after James White made this biblical statement regarding the KON that you will not find any statement made by Ellen White correcting or even rebuking him on this prophetic and historic fact once published for all to read at their leisure. This not only confirms the KON is preached and taught to be Rome by James and Ellen White, it also confirms Ellen White never rebuked James White for declaring this truth as a rebuke against Uriah Smith that day as some twist out of context to this day. Her rebuke to her husband was clearly and solely based on the method by which James rebuked Uriah.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188034
12/11/18 06:43 AM
12/11/18 06:43 AM
APL  Offline
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But the same reasoning, EGW never rebuked Uriah Smith's view of the KOTN being Turkey. In fact, she promoted his book on Daniel equally with Desire of Ages, Patriarchs and Prophets, Great Controversy an Daniel and Revelation. Other authors of her time sh also never rebuked on the issue such as Haskell and Jones.

The Lord calls for workers to enter the canvassing field that the books containing the light of present truth may be circulated. The people in the world need to know that the signs of the times are fulfilling. Take to them the books that will enlighten them. Daniel and Revelation, The Great Controversy, Patriarchs and Prophets, and The Desire of Ages should now go to the world. The grand instruction contained in Daniel and Revelation has been eagerly perused by many in Australia. This book has been the means of bringing many precious souls to a knowledge of the truth. Everything that can be done should be done to circulate Thoughts on Daniel and the Revelation. I know of no other book that can take the place of this one. It is God's helping hand. {21MR 444.3}



Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: The King of the North [Re: APL] #188040
12/12/18 12:04 PM
12/12/18 12:04 PM
Rick H  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: APL
But the same reasoning, EGW never rebuked Uriah Smith's view of the KOTN being Turkey. In fact, she promoted his book on Daniel equally with Desire of Ages, Patriarchs and Prophets, Great Controversy an Daniel and Revelation. Other authors of her time sh also never rebuked on the issue such as Haskell and Jones.

The Lord calls for workers to enter the canvassing field that the books containing the light of present truth may be circulated. The people in the world need to know that the signs of the times are fulfilling. Take to them the books that will enlighten them. Daniel and Revelation, The Great Controversy, Patriarchs and Prophets, and The Desire of Ages should now go to the world. The grand instruction contained in Daniel and Revelation has been eagerly perused by many in Australia. This book has been the means of bringing many precious souls to a knowledge of the truth. Everything that can be done should be done to circulate Thoughts on Daniel and the Revelation. I know of no other book that can take the place of this one. It is God's helping hand. {21MR 444.3}





You would then destroy all the good work that Uriah did, undercutting it much like putting down Jones and Waggoner 1888 message for issues which happened unrelated to their message.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188045
12/13/18 02:05 PM
12/13/18 02:05 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: rick
You would then destroy all the good work that Uriah did, undercutting it much like putting down Jones and Waggoner 1888 message for issues which happened unrelated to their message.
Smith, Jones, Waggoner, Haskell: their message remains true, and supported by EGW. Who is destroying what?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: The King of the North [Re: APL] #188051
12/15/18 01:03 AM
12/15/18 01:03 AM
Rick H  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: rick
You would then destroy all the good work that Uriah did, undercutting it much like putting down Jones and Waggoner 1888 message for issues which happened unrelated to their message.
Smith, Jones, Waggoner, Haskell: their message remains true, and supported by EGW. Who is destroying what?


By criticizing Uriah openly before the brethren, James White would have done damage. That is what Ellen White was telling him.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188053
12/15/18 05:07 AM
12/15/18 05:07 AM
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Originally Posted By: rick
By criticizing Uriah openly before the brethren, James White would have done damage. That is what Ellen White was telling him.
EGW supported Smith and his book and never rebuked him. WHY? EGW did not have a problem rebuking error. Her rebuke of her husband was more that just causing a damage view of the brethren what is was, there was more to the story. You should read the back story sometime.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: The King of the North [Re: APL] #188064
12/15/18 01:43 PM
12/15/18 01:43 PM
Rick H  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: rick
By criticizing Uriah openly before the brethren, James White would have done damage. That is what Ellen White was telling him.
EGW supported Smith and his book and never rebuked him. WHY? EGW did not have a problem rebuking error. Her rebuke of her husband was more that just causing a damage view of the brethren what is was, there was more to the story. You should read the back story sometime.


Why don't you post it so all can be informed?

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188065
12/15/18 01:47 PM
12/15/18 01:47 PM
Rick H  Offline OP
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Now here is a really good study that really makes sense with a breakdown of Daniel 11 on what the verses give us.

Daniel 11:1 King James Version (KJV)
"1 Also I in the first year of Darius the Mede, even I, stood to confirm and to strengthen him."
'The language of Daniel 11-12 is not symbolic in the same way that it is in chapters 2, 7 and 8. There are no images, beasts, or horns. Just the same, its language is cryptic, almost like a code. Each sentence condenses quantities of information, and many metaphors are employed.

These qualities have led to a variety of interpretations. There are, however, two very useful guidelines that all interpretations must follow to be acceptable:

1. This vision begins with a reference to King Cyrus and ends with God’s people delivered. So just like the other prophecies of Daniel, this one does not focus in on a narrow span of history but covers a long time span from the prophet’s day to the end of the world. This also means there should be some parallels that can be identified between this vision and the previous ones.

2. Within the text are several specific phrases that can be accurately pinned to certain historical events or time periods.

Last edited by Rick H; 12/15/18 01:48 PM.
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188072
12/15/18 08:52 PM
12/15/18 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted By: rick
Now here is a really good study that really makes sense with a breakdown of Daniel 11 on what the verses give us.
Why do you think Uriah Smith titles the chapter in Daniel and Revelation on Daniel 11 as he does? It is literal, not spiritual. And the king of the north always occupied the same territory, which is where?

Fill in the blank: _________________

What was this question call the Eastern Question?

Fill in the blank: _________________


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188076
12/16/18 01:18 AM
12/16/18 01:18 AM
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Daniel 11:2 King James Version (KJV)
"2 And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia."

The “fourth” king of Persia after Cyrus was Xerxes (Greek name for Ahasuerus), the husband of Queen Esther, who ruled at the height of Persian power and wealth. He raised a huge army with contingents from forty different nations and attacked Greece around 480 BC.

The Persian invasion was eventually repelled, but it roused a burning desire on the part of the independent city states of Greece to unite and average themselves on the Persians. There is much more detail on the rulers and activities of this kingdom than we have seen in previous visions.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188077
12/16/18 01:19 AM
12/16/18 01:19 AM
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Daniel 11:3-4 King James Version (KJV)

"3 And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will.4 And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those."

These two verses deal with Alexander’s conquests and the subsequent four divisions of his kingdom. This is the end of the obvious and easy sections of this prophecy.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188078
12/16/18 01:19 AM
12/16/18 01:19 AM
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Now comes Daniel 11:5-15
These verses deal with the intricate details of the rulers and activities of the divided kingdom of Greece. Ultimately two of these divisions came to dominate to such an extent that the Bible record accurately portrays them under the titles of “The King of the North,” and “The King of the South.”

The enemies of Israel, such as Babylon and Egypt, always attacked from the north and the south. Thus “The King of the North” and “The King of the South” came to symbolize the adversaries of God’s people. This entire vision depicts these enemies as warring powers whose battles adversely affect God’s people

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188079
12/16/18 01:19 AM
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Daniel 11:16-20 King James Version (KJV)

"16 But he that cometh against him shall do according to his own will, and none shall stand before him: and he shall stand in the glorious land, which by his hand shall be consumed.
17 He shall also set his face to enter with the strength of his whole kingdom, and upright ones with him; thus shall he do: and he shall give him the daughter of women, corrupting her: but she shall not stand on his side, neither be for him.
18 After this shall he turn his face unto the isles, and shall take many: but a prince for his own behalf shall cause the reproach offered by him to cease; without his own reproach he shall cause it to turn upon him.
19 Then he shall turn his face toward the fort of his own land: but he shall stumble and fall, and not be found.
20 Then shall stand up in his estate a raiser of taxes in the glory of the kingdom: but within few days he shall be destroyed, neither in anger, nor in battle."

This section applies to the Pagan Roman Empire; it is the “King of the North” that “none shall stand before.” In 63 BC the Roman General Pompey interceded in a Jewish civil war and declared Judea a Roman protectorate.

Verses 17-19 are generally applied to Julius Caesar, ending with his assassination. Caesar Augustus, who, at the time of Christ’s birth, decreed that “the entire world should be taxed” (Luke 2:1), is pointed out in verse 20

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188080
12/16/18 01:21 AM
12/16/18 01:21 AM
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Daniel 11:21-24 King James Version (KJV)

"21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.
23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
24 He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: yea, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time."

Here is where it starts to get harder, but if you look at the other prophecies in Daniel, the power that arises after Pagan Rome is the Papacy. So we go over how this comes to bear.." prophecy here shifts over to Papal Rome, with verse 22 referring to the papacy setting itself up against Christ, corresponding to “magnified himself even to the prince of the host” in Daniel 8:11."

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188081
12/16/18 01:22 AM
12/16/18 01:22 AM
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Daniel 11:25-30 King James Version (KJV)

"25 And he shall stir up his power and his courage against the king of the south with a great army; and the king of the south shall be stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not stand: for they shall forecast devices against him.
26 Yea, they that feed of the portion of his meat shall destroy him, and his army shall overflow: and many shall fall down slain.
27 And both of these kings' hearts shall be to do mischief, and they shall speak lies at one table; but it shall not prosper: for yet the end shall be at the time appointed.
28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.
29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.
30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant."

It gets harder with many ideas, but if we are looking at papal power then it makes sense. So the if we check history, "this section refers to the crusades which Papal Rome as king of the north launched to reclaim the Holy Land from the Muslims, “the King of the South,” around AD 1095-1272."

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188082
12/16/18 01:23 AM
12/16/18 01:23 AM
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Daniel 11:31-35 King James Version (KJV)

"31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed."

Now we come to the corruption of this power. "The abomination that maketh desolate” refers here to the Church of Rome and points to the Reformation period and the persecution of “heretics” by the Roman Catholic Papacy."

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188087
12/16/18 02:19 AM
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Uriah Smith:
Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
 
"They shall pollute the sanctuary of strength," or Rome. If this applies to the barbarians, it was literally fulfilled; for Rome was sacked by the Goths and Vandals, and the imperial power of the West ceased through the conquest of Rome by Odoacer. Or if it refers to those rulers of the empire who were working in behalf of the papacy against the pagan and all other opposing religions, it would signify the removal of the seat of empire from Rome to Constantinople, which contributed its measure of influence to the downfall of Rome. The passage would then be parallel to Daniel 8:11 and Revelation 13:2.
 
Papacy Takes Away "the Daily."--It was shown in comments on Daniel 8:13, that "sacrifice" is a word erroneously supplied. It should be "desolation." The expression denotes a desolating power, of which the abomination of desolation is but the counterpart, and to which it succeeds in point of time. It seems clear therefore that the "daily" desolation was paganism, and the "abomination of desolation" is the papacy. But it may be asked, How can this be the papacy since Christ spoke of it in connection with the destruction of Jerusalem? The answer is, Christ evidently referred to Daniel 9, which predicts the destruction of Jerusalem, and not to this verse in Daniel 11, which does not refer to that event. In the ninth chapter, Daniel speaks of desolations and abominations in the plural. More than one abomination, therefore, treads down the church; that is, as far as the church is concerned, both paganism and the papacy are abominations. But as distinguished from each other, the language is restricted. One is the "daily" desolation, and the other is pre-eminently the transgression of "abomination" of desolation.
 
How was the "daily," or paganism, taken away? As this is spoken of in connection with the placing or setting up of the abomination of desolation, or the papacy, it must denote, not merely the nominal change of the religion of the empire from paganism to Christianity, as on the so-called conversion of Constantine, but to such an eradication of paganism from all the elements of the empire that the way would be entirely open for the papal abomination to arise and assert its arrogant claims. Such a revolution as this was accomplished, but not for nearly two hundred years after the death of Constantine.
 
As we approach the year A.D. 508, we behold a mighty crisis ripening between Catholicism and the pagan influences still existing in the empire. Up to the time of the conversion of Clovis, king of France, in A.D. 496, the French and other nations of Western Rome were pagan; but following that event, the efforts to convert idolaters to Romanism were crowned with great success. The conversion of Clovis is said to have been the occasion of bestowing upon the French monarch the titles "Most Christian Majesty" and "Eldest Son of the Church." Between that time and A.D. 508, by alliances, capitulations, and conquests, the Arborici, the Roman garrisons in the West, Brittany, the Burgundians, and the Visigoths, were brought into subjects.
 
From the time when these successes were fully accomplished, in A.D. 508, the papacy was triumphant so far as paganism was concerned; for though the latter doubtless retarded the progress of the Catholic faith, yet it had not the power, if it had the disposition, to suppress the faith, and hinder the encroachments of the Roman pontiff. When the prominent powers of Europe gave up their attachment to paganism, it was only to perpetuate its abominations in another form; for Christianity as exhibited in the RomanCatholic Church was, and is, only paganism baptized.
 
The status of the see of Rome was also peculiar at this time. In 498, Symmachus ascended the pontifical throne as a recent convert from paganism. He found his way to the papal chair by striving with his competitor even unto blood. He received adulation as the successor of St. Peter, and struck the keynote of papal assumption by presuming to excommunicate the Emperor Anastasius. [25] The most servile flatterers of the pope now began to maintain that he was constituted judge in the place of God, and that he was the vicegerent of the Most High.
 
Such was the direction in which events were tending in the West. In what state were affairs at the same time in the East? A strong papal party now existed in all parts of the empire. The adherents of this cause in Constantinople, encouraged by the success of their brethren in the West, deemed it safe to begin open hostilities in behalf of their master at Rome.
 
Let it be marked that soon after the year 508, paganism had so far declined, and Catholicism had so far relatively increased in strength, that the Catholic Church for the first time was able to wage a successful war against both the civil authority of the empire and the church of the East, which had for the most part embraced the Monophysite doctrine, which Rome counted heresy. Partisan zeal culminated in a whirlwind of fanaticism and civil war, which swept in fire and blood through Constantinople. That such a war took place a few years later will be seen in the following quotation from Gibbon in his account of events under the years 508-518:
 
"The statues of the emperor were broken, and his person was concealed in a suburb, till, at the end of three days, he dared to implore the mercy of his subjects. Without his diadem, and in the posture of a suppliant, Anastasius appeared on the throne of the circus. The Catholics, before his face, rehearsed their genuine Trisagion; they exulted in the offer, which he proclaimed by the voice of a herald, of abdicating the purple; they listened to the admonition, that since all could not reign, they should previously agree in the choice of a sovereign; and they accepted the blood of two unpopular ministers, whom their master, without hesitation, condemned to the lions. These furious but transient seditions were encouraged by the success of Vitalian, who, with an army of Huns and Bulgarians, for the most part idolaters, declared himself the champion of the Catholic faith. In this pious rebellion he depopulated Thrace, besieged Constantinople, exterminated sixty-five thousand of his fellow Christians, till he obtained the recall of the bishops, the satisfaction of the pope, and the establishment of the Council of Chalcedon, an orthodox treaty, reluctantly signed by the dying Anastasius, and more faithfully performed by the uncle of Justinian. And such was the event of the first of the religious wars which have been waged in the name, and by the disciples, of the God of Peace." [26]
 
We think it clear that the daily was taken away by A.D. 508. This was preparatory to the setting up, or establishment, of the papacy, which was a separate and subsequent event. Of this the prophetic narrative now leads us to speak.
 
Papacy Sets Up an Abomination.--"They shall place the abomination that maketh desolate." Having shown quite fully what we think constitutes the taking away of the daily, or paganism, we now inquire, When was the abomination that maketh desolate, or the papacy, placed, or set up? The little horn that had eyes like the eyes of man was not slow to see when the way was open for his advancement and elevation. from the year 508 his progress toward universal supremacy was without a parallel.
 
When Justinian was about to begin the Vandal war in A.D. 533, an enterprise of no small magnitude and difficulty, he wished to secure the influence of the bishop of Rome, who had then attained a position in which his opinion had great weight throughout a large part of Christendom. Justinian therefore took it upon himself to decide the contest which had long existed between the sees of Rome and Constantinople as to which should have the precedence, by giving the preference to Rome in an official letter to the pope, declaring in the fullest and most unequivocal terms that the bishop of that city should be chief of the whole ecclesiastical body of the empire.
 
Justinian's letter reads: "Justinian, victor, pious, fortunate, famous, triumphant, ever Augustus, to John, the most holy Archbishop and Patriarch of the noble city of Rome. Paying honor to the Apostolic See and to Your Holiness, as always has been and is our desire, and honoring your blessedness as a father, we hasten to bring to the knowledge of Your Holiness all that pertains to the condition of the churches, since it has always been our great aim to safeguard the unity of your Apostolic See and the position of the holy churches of God which now prevails and abides securely without any disturbing trouble. Therefore we have been sedulous to subject and unite all the priests of the Orient throughout its whole extent to the see of Your Holiness. Whatever questions happen to be mooted at present, we have thought necessary to be brought to Your Holiness's knowledge, however clear and unquestionable they may be, and though firmly held and taught by all the clergy in accordance with the doctrine of your Apostolic See; for we do not suffer that anything which is mooted, however clear and unquestionable, pertaining to the state of the churches, should fail to be made known to Your Holiness, as being the head of the churches. For, as we have said before, we are zealous for the increase of the honor and authority of your see in all respects." [27]
 
"The emperor's letter must have been sent before the 25th of March, 533. For, in his letter of that date to Epiphanius he speaks of its having been already dispatched, and repeats his decision that all affairs touching the church shall be referred to the pope, 'head of all bishops, and the true and effective corrector of heretics.' " [28]
 
"In the same month of the following year, 534, the pope returned an answer repeating the language of the emperor, applauding his homage to the see, and adopting the titles of the imperial mandate. He observes that, among the virtues of Justinian, 'one shines as a star, his reverence for the Apostolic chair, to which he has subjected and united all the churches, it being truly the Head of all; as was testified by the rules of the Fathers, the laws of the Princes, and the declarations of the Emperor's piety.'
 
"The authenticity of the title receives unanswerable proof from the edicts in the 'Novellae' of the Justinian code. The preamble of the 9th states that 'as the elder Rome was the founder of the laws; so was it not to be questioned that in her was the supremacy of the pontificate.' The 131st, On the ecclesiastical titles and privileges, chapter ii, states: 'We therefore decree that the most holy Pope of the elder Rome is the first of all the priesthood, and that the most blessed Archbishop of Constantinople, the new Rome, shall hold the second rank after the holy Apostolic chair of the elder Rome.' " [29]
 
Toward the close of the sixth century, John of Constantinople denied the Roman supremacy, and assumed for himself the title of universal bishop; whereupon Gregory the Great, indignant at the usurpation, denounced John and declared, without being aware of the truth of his statement, that he who would assume the title of universal bishop was the Antichrist. In 606, Phocas suppressed the claim of the bishop of Constantinople, and vindicated that of the bishop of Rome. But Phocas was not the founder of papal supremacy. "That Phocas repressed the claim of the bishop of Constantinople is beyond a doubt. But the highest authorities among the civilians
 
and annalists of Rome spurn the idea that Phocas was the founder of the supremacy of Rome; they ascend to Justinian as the only legitimate source, and rightly date the title from the memorable year 533." [30]
 
George Croly makes this further statement: "On reference to Baronius, the established authority among the Roman Catholic annalists, I found Justinian's grant of supremacy to the pope formally fixed to that period. . . . The entire transaction was of the most authentic and regular kind, and suitable to the importance of the transfer." [31]
 
Such were the circumstances attending the decree of Justinian. But the provisions of this decree would not at once be carried into effect; for Rome and Italy were held by the Ostrogoths, who were Arians in faith, and strongly opposed to the religion of Justinian and the pope. It was therefore evident that the Ostrogoths must be rooted out of Rome before the pope could exercise the power with which he had been clothed. To accomplish this object, the Italian was began in 534. The management of the campaign was entrusted to Belisarius. On his approach toward Rome, several cities forsook Vitiges, their Gothic and heretical sovereign, and joined the armies of the Catholic emperor. The Goths, deciding to delay offensive operations until spring, allowed Belisarius to enter Rome without opposition. The deputies of the pope and the clergy, of the senate and the people, invited the lieutenant of Justinian to accept their voluntary allegiance.
 
Belisarius entered Rome on December 10, 536. But this was not an end of the struggle, for the Goths rallied their forces and resolved to dispute his possession of the city by a regular siege, which they began in March, 537. Belisarius feared despair and treachery on the part of the people. Several senators, and Pope Silverius, on proof or suspicion of treason, were sent into exile. The emperor commanded the clergy to elect a new bishop. After solemnly invoking the Holy Ghost they elected the deacon Vigilius, who, by a bribe of two hundred pounds of gold, had purchased the honor. [32]
 
The whole nation of the Ostrogoths had been assembled for the siege of Rome, but success did not attend their efforts. Their hosts melted away in frequent and bloody combats under the city walls, and the year and nine days during which the siege lasted, witnessed almost the entire destruction of the nation. In the month of March, 538, dangers beginning to threaten them from other quarters, they raised the siege, burned their tents, and retired in tumult and confusion from the city, with numbers scarcely sufficient to preserve their existence as a nation or their identity as a people.
 
Thus the Gothic horn, the last of the three, was plucked up before the little horn of Daniel 7. Nothing now stood in the way of the pope to prevent his exercising the power conferred upon him by Justinian five years before. The saints, times, and laws were now in his hands, not in purpose only, but in fact. This must therefore be taken as the year when this abomination was placed, or set up, and as the point from which to date the beginning of the prophetic period of 1260 years of papal supremacy.
 
[25] See Louis E. Dupin, A New History of Ecclesiastical Writers, Vol. V, pp. 1-3, "Pope Symmachus."
 
[26] Edward Gibbon, The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Vol. IV, chap. 47, p. 526.
 
[27] Codex Justiniani, lib. 1, Titus 1; translation as given by R. F. Littledale The Petrine Claims, p. 293.
 
[28] George Croly, The Apocalypse of St. John, p. 170.
 
[29] Ibid., pp. 170, 171.
 
[30] Ibid., pp. 172, 173.
 
[31] Ibid., pp. 12, 13.
 
[32] Edward Gibbon, The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Vol. IV, chap. 41, pp. 168, 169.



Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188088
12/16/18 02:22 AM
12/16/18 02:22 AM
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... Uriah Smith
 
Daniel 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
 
Kings of South and North Again in Conflict.--After a long interval, the king of the south and the king of the north again appear on the stage of action.[color added] We have met with nothing to indicate that we are to look to any locations for these powers other than those which shortly after the death of Alexander constituted respectively the southern and the northern divisions of his empire. The king of the south was at that time Egypt, and the king of the north was Syria, including Thrace and Asia Minor. Egypt continued to rule in the territory designated as belonging to the king of the south, and Turkey for more than four hundred years ruled over the territory which first constituted the domain of the king of the north.
 
This application of the prophecy calls for a conflict to spring up between Egypt and France, and between Turkey and France, in 17983, which year, as we have seen, marked the beginning of the time of the end. If history testifies that such a triangular war did break out in that year, it will be conclusive proof of the correctness of the application.
 
We inquire, therefore, Is it a fact that at the time of the end, Egypt did "push," or make a comparatively feeble resistance, while Turkey did come like a resistless "whirlwind," against "him," that is, the government of France? We have already produced some evidence that the time of the end began in 1798; and no reader of history need be informed that in that year a state of open hostility between France and Egypt was developed.
 
To what extent this conflict owed its origin to the dreams of glory deliriously cherished in the ambitious brain of Napoleon Bonaparte, the historian will form his own opinion; but the French, or Napoleon at least, contrived to make Egypt the aggressor. "In a skillfully worded proclamation he [Napoleon] assured the peoples of Egypt that he had come to chastise only the governing caste of Mamelukes for their depredations on French merchants; that, far from wishing to destroy the religion of the Muslim, he had more respect for God, Mohammed, and the Koran than the Mamelukes had shown; that the French had destroyed the Pope and the Knights of Malta who levied war on the Muslim; thrice blessed, therefore, would be those who sided with the French, blessed even those who remained neutral, and thrice unhappy those who fought against them." [43]
 
The beginning of the year 1798 found the French indulging in immense projects against the English. The Directory desired Bonaparte to undertake at once the crossing of the Channel and an attack upon England; but he saw that no direct operations of that kind could be judiciously undertaken before the autumn, and he was unwilling to hazard this growing reputation by spending his summer in idleness. "But," says the historian, "he saw a far-off land, where glory was to be won which would gain a new charm in the eyes of his countrymen by the romance and mystery which hung upon the scene. Egypt, the land of the Pharaohs and Ptolemies, would be a noble field for new triumphs." [44]
 
But while still broader visions of glory opened before the eyes of Bonaparte in those Eastern historic lands, covering not Egypt only, but Syria, Persia, Hindustan, even to the Ganges itself, he had no difficulty in persuading the Directory that Egypt was the vulnerable point through which to strike at England by intercepting her Eastern trade. Hence on the pretext above mentioned, the Egyptian campaign was undertaken.
 
The downfall of the papacy, which marked the termination of the 1260 years, and according to verse 35 showed the beginning of the time of the end, occurred in February, 1798, when Rome fell into the hands of Berthier, the general of the French. On the 5th of March following, Bonaparte received the decree of the Directory relative to the expedition against Egypt. He left Paris May 3, and set sail from Toulon the 19th, with a large naval armament consisting of "thirteen ships-of-the-line, fourteen frigates (some of them unarmed), a large number of smaller vessels of war, and about 300 transports. Upwards of 35,000 troops were on board, along with 1230 horses. If we include the crews, the commission of savants sent to explore the wonders of Egypt, and the attendants, the total number of persons aboard was about 50,000; it has even been placed as high as 54,000." [45]
 
July 2, Alexandria was taken, and immediately fortified. On the 21st the decisive Battle of the Pyramids was fought, in which the Mamelukes contested the field with valor and desperation, but were no match for the disciplined legions of the French. Murad Bey lost all his cannon, 400 camels, and 3,000 men. The loss of the French was comparatively slight. On the 25th, Bonaparte entered Cairo, the capital of Egypt, and only waited the subsidence of the floods of the Nile to pursue Murad Bey to Upper Egypt, whither he had retired with his shattered calvary, and so make a conquest of the whole country. Thus the king of the south was able to make but a feeble resistance.
 
At this juncture, however, the situation of Napoleon began to grow precarious. The French fleet, which was his only channel of communication with France, was destroyed by the English under Nelson at Aboukir. On September 11, 1798, the sultan of Turkey, under feeling of jealousy against France, artfully fostered by the English ambassadors at Constantinople, and exasperated that Egypt, so long a semi-dependency of the Ottoman Empire, should be transformed into a French province, declared war against France. Thus the king of the north (Turkey) came against him (France) in the same year that the king of the south (Egypt) "pushed," and both "at the time of the end." This is another conclusive proof that the year 1798 is the year which begins that period--all of which is a demonstration that this application of the prophecy is correct. So many events meeting accurately the specifications of the prophecy could not take place together and not constitute a fulfillment of the prophecy.
 
Was the coming of the king of the north, or Turkey, like a whirlwind in comparison with the pushing of Egypt? Napoleon had crushed the armies of Egypt, and essayed to do the same thing with the armies of the sultan which were threatening an attack from the side of Asia. He began his march from Cairo to Syria, February 27, 1799, with 18,000 men. He first took the Fort El-Arish in the desert, then Jaffa (the Joppa of the Bible), conquered the inhabitants of Naplous at Zeta, and was again victorious at Jafet. Meanwhile, a strong body of Turks had intrenched themselves at St. Jean d'Acre, while swarms of Mussulmans gathered in the mountains of Samaria, ready to swoop down upon the French when they should besiege Acre. Sir Sidney Smith at the same time appeared before St. Jean d'Acre with two English ships, reinforced the Turkish garrison of that place, and captured the apparatus for the siege which Napoleon had sent across by sea from Alexandria. A Turkish fleet soon appeared in the offing, which with the Russian and English vessels then co-operating with them constituted the "many ships" of the king of the north.
 
On the 18th of March the siege began. Napoleon was twice called away to save some French divisions from falling into the hands of the Mussulman hordes that filled the country. Twice also a breach was made in the wall of the city, but the assailants were met with such fury by the garrison that they were obliged, despite their best efforts, to give over the struggle. After a continuance of sixty days, Napoleon raised the siege, sounded the note of retreat, for the first time in his career, and on the 21st of May, 1799, began to retrace his steps to Egypt.
 
"He . . . shall overflow and pass over." We have found events which furnish a very striking fulfillment of the pushing of the king of the south, and the whirlwind onset of the king of the north against the French power. Thus far there is quite a general agreement in the application of the prophecy. We now reach a point where the views of expositors begin to diverge. To whom do the words he "shall overflow and pass over," refer--to France or to the king of the north? The application of the remainder of this chapter depends upon the answer to this question. From this point two lines of interpretation are maintained. Some apply the words to France, and endeavor to find a fulfillment in the career of Napoleon. Others apply them to the king of the north, and accordingly point for a fulfillment to events in the history of Turkey. We speak of these two positions only, as the attempt which some make to bring in the papacy here is so evidently wide of the mark that it need not be considered. If neither of these positions is free from difficulty, as we presume no one will claim that it is absolutely, it only remains that we take that one which has weight of evidence in its favor. We shall find one in favor of which the evidence does so greatly preponderate to the exclusion of all others, as scarcely to leave any room for doubt in regard to the view here mentioned.
 
Turkey Becomes King of the North.--Respecting the application of this portion of the prophecy to Napoleon or to France under his leadership, we do not find events which we can urge with any degree of assurance as the fulfillment of the remaining part of this chapter. Hence we do see how it can be thus applied. It must, then, be fulfilled by Turkey, unless it can be shown that the expression "king of the north" does not apply to Turkey, or that there is some other power besides either France or the king of the north which fulfilled this part of the prediction. But if Turkey, now occupying the territory which constituted the northern division of Alexander's empire, is not the king of the north of this prophecy, then we are left without any principle to guide us in the interpretation. We presume all will agree that there is no room for the introduction of any other power here. France and the king of the north are the only ones to whom the prediction can apply. The fulfillment must lie between them.
 
Some considerations certainly favor the idea that there is in the latter part part of verse 40 a transfer of the burden of the prophecy from the French power to the king of the north. The latter is introduced just before as coming forth like a whirlwind, with chariots, horsemen, and many ships. The collision between this power and the French we have already noticed. The king of the north with the aid of his allies gained the day in this contest; and the French, foiled in their efforts, were driven back into Egypt. Now it would seem to be the more natural application to refer the "overflowing and passing over" to that power which emerged in triumph from that struggle, and that power was Turkey.
 
[43] The Cambridge Modern History, Vol. VIII, p. 599. By permission of the Macmillan Company, publishers in the United States.
 
[44] James White, History of France, p. 469
 
[45] The Cambridge Modern History, Vol. VIII, pp. 597, 598. By permission of the Macmillan Company, publishers in the United States.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188089
12/16/18 02:25 AM
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... Uriah Smith
 
Daniel 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
 
King of the North to Come to His End.--We have now traced the prophecy of the 11th chapter of Daniel step by step to this last verse. As we see the divine predictions meeting their fulfillment in history, our faith is strengthened in the final accomplishment of God's prophetic word.
 
The prophecy of Daniel 11:45 centers in that power known as the king of the north. It is the power that shall hold the territory possessed originally by the king of the north (See pages 235, 236.)
 
It is predicted of the king of the north that "he shall come to his end, and none shall help him." Just how and when and where his end will come, we may watch with solemn interest, knowing that the hand of Providence guides the destiny of nations.
 
Time will soon determine this matter. When this even takes place, what follows?--events of the most momentous interest to all the inhabitants of this world, as the next chapter immediately shows.
 
The Lord calls for workers to enter the canvassing field that the books containing the light of present truth may be circulated. The people in the world need to know that the signs of the times are fulfilling. Take to them the books that will enlighten them. Daniel and Revelation, The Great Controversy, Patriarchs and Prophets, and The Desire of Ages should now go to the world. The grand instruction contained in Daniel and Revelation has been eagerly perused by many in Australia. This book has been the means of bringing many precious souls to a knowledge of the truth. Everything that can be done should be done to circulate Thoughts on Daniel and the Revelation. I know of no other book that can take the place of this one. It is God's helping hand. {21MR 444.3}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188102
12/19/18 07:02 AM
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I have always found it so strange that a few people will stand strongly for Uriah Smith's interpretation of Daniel 11:40-45, while rarely standing up for much else that he wrote in his book.

Yet, it is one portion of his otherwise great work, that was already highly controversial, with several cautions against it voiced by a pioneer who stood for truth.


Basically, according to Uriah Smith -- Daniel 11 would all be history. It has all taken place already.

But honestly -- how does France get into the picture at all?France occupied Egypt for a very short time. Barely a blip in history.

On July 1, 1798, a French invasion force under the command of Napoleon disembarked near Alexandria. They took Alexandria, defeated the Mamluk army at Shubra Khit and Imbabah, and entered Cairo on July 25. He set about immediately trying to bring in civic changes into Egypt.

But it wasn't just "Turkey" that came against them.
Britain and the Ottoman government joined forces against Napoleon to drive him out of Egypt.

It was the British that destroyed Napoleon's navy just a month later on August 1, 1798, leaving Napoleon's army land locked.
Cairo rioted against Napoleon -- Napoleon heads up to Syria, the Ottoman army comes against him. Napoleon and a few of his men secretly board a ship and head back to Europe
in August 1799. Leaving what was left of his army stranded in Egypt. That means Napoleon was there for ONE YEAR!!!

His battered soldiers tried to recapture Egypt, but the British sent in forces and defeated the French. The survivors managed to return to France.
The Egyptian expedition lasted only three years and three weeks


The French venture in Egypt hardly stands as some huge event in history!
England had far more power over Egypt than France.
France wanted to take that power from the English mainly because of the Suez canal and hoping to build other canals and gain access to the riches in the far east.

The Ottoman Empire basically came to it's end 10 August 1920 in the First World War.



As for the geographic points.
In the first part of Daniel 11
Egypt was the headquarters of the king of the south
Seleucids capital or headquarters were in two cities --at Antioch in Syria and from here the western parts were governed. Seleucia-on-the-Tigris (near Babylon) in Mesopotamia was the centre of government in the east.

So, even though Turkey was a "conquered territory" it was NOT the headquarters of ancient "king of the north".


What I'm saying with all this history --
I see no reason what=so-ever to look to Turkey as being an actor in Daniel 11.
The king of the north (when we follow the pattern laid out in all of Daniel's prophecy) is the Roman power the (Christian coalition under the Roman pontiff)

Originally Posted By: James White
While the lines of prophecy in the book of Daniel have to do with the four kingdoms, Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome, that of John pertains to the fourth only, Rome. The Revelation contains four distinct lines of prophecy, measuring the period of the fourth universal empire, covering the history of the church until her Lord shall come.
Advent Review and Sabbath Herald,
Vol. 51 #15, Oct.3, 1878 p. 116

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188103
12/19/18 03:02 PM
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Your right - that thing about France taking the pope captive 1798, ending the 2300 days, nah, it was nothing. Just a blip of time. Nothing significant here. Move along.

Oh, and dedication said: "Basically, according to Uriah Smith -- Daniel 11 would all be history. It has all taken place already." Ah, no, Smith did not say it had all taken place. Yes, the chapter is titled, "A Literal Prophesy." And James White agreed. Stephen Haskell further writes that we can know what is happening in the Heavenly Sanctuary by certain events taking place, much in agreement with Smith. Haskell, a friend of EGW in later years. And it was Smith's work, which was actually not a work created in isolation by one man, that EGW strongly promoted, and dedication discounts.

The power talked about in Daniel 11:40-45 comes to its end, THEN the end comes, Daniel 12. The papacy does not come to its end until the second coming.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188104
12/20/18 12:45 AM
12/20/18 12:45 AM
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For some reason I was listening to Jeff Pippenger. Was he referenced from this forum or did I get it from something else? He has something to say about the last president which prior to that I thought he was ok. Don't know now, will have to listen to it. I thought he was once with Amazing Facts.

Re: The King of the North [Re: kland] #188105
12/20/18 03:19 AM
12/20/18 03:19 AM
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Originally Posted By: kland
For some reason I was listening to Jeff Pippenger. Was he referenced from this forum or did I get it from something else? He has something to say about the last president which prior to that I thought he was ok. Don't know now, will have to listen to it. I thought he was once with Amazing Facts.
Pippenger with AF? I doubt he ever was. He is the one pushing the 2520.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: The King of the North [Re: APL] #188106
12/20/18 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted By: APL
Your right - that thing about France taking the pope captive 1798, ending the 2300 days, nah, it was nothing. Just a blip of time. Nothing significant here. Move along.


What are you referring too?

You just mixed up three different prophecies ---
1. The 2300 days did not end in 1798. Nor did they have anything to do with the pope being taken captive, or with Napoleon. The 2300 days ended in 1844 when Christ entered into the most Holy Place to engage in the preAdvent judgment.

2. The 1260 year prophecy takes us to 1798 and it did not take place in the regions which Uriah Smith describes as the regions of the king of the north or the king of the south.
The 1260 years describe the reign of the papacy.
And NO -- their end was not a blip in history.

But maybe if you consider =-
The 1260 years were about the king of north which is the papal power. It received it's mortal wound in 1798. NOW it becomes a major event in church history -- and Daniel 11:40-45 shows that mortal wound healed and the king of the north in full activity again.

But from previous posts -- you do not acknowledge the papal powers as the king of the north?

A large part of the error is in calling FRANCE the king of the south -- (for all the emphasis you folk put on geographically positioning in relation to Jerusalem, it is a strange call to make France the King of the south) the three year failed assault launched on Egypt by France does NOT make France the king of the South. That was the blip in history -- France is NOT the king of the south.


Originally Posted By: APL
Oh, and dedication said: "Basically, according to Uriah Smith -- Daniel 11 would all be history. It has all taken place already." Ah, no, Smith did not say it had all taken place.


You're right -- when U. Smith wrote those things the Ottomans were still in existence -- upheld since 1841 by European powers.
However, the fall that Uriah predicted took place in 1921/22. Thus yes, it is history, those predictions are history. The Ottoman power came to its end near the end of the first world war. The sign that Smith foretold was NOT a sign at all.

Nor was it ever mentioned as a sign by EGW.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188107
12/20/18 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted By: dedication
What are you referring too?

You just mixed up three different prophecies ---
Yes, I meant 1260, I mis-typed. Thank you. It was a significant event, and France had no little role in that event. As to whom functions under the title of king of the north or south, has to do with geography and who controls it, which is what you want to throw out. You want to remove the literal and make it spiritual. Even James White knew that did not apply to Daniel 11, and there is a back story to White and the time that he was writing, it has been discusses on these forums before, I'm not going to repeat it. It was James White that EGW rebuked for his comments, not Uriah Smith and supported the publication of his book along with hers. This is very telling.
Originally Posted By: dedication
However, the fall that Uriah predicted took place in 1921/22. Thus yes, it is history, those predictions are history. The Ottoman power came to its end near the end of the first world war. The sign that Smith foretold was NOT a sign at all.

Nor was it ever mentioned as a sign by EGW.
You dismiss the country that controls the territory of the North today, I wonder if you watched the video I posted above? The events of Daniel 11:45 have not happened. There is a country that wants to take Jerusalem, and that would be
(fill in the blank):______________________________

Was Stephen Haskell a friend of Ellen White or not? Do you think she knew what Haskell taught? Did she ever caution Haskell on the point of Daniel 11? Why or why not?
 
Haskell:
 
The power which came on the stage of action July 27, 1449, was to bear sway for an hour and a day and a month and a year,-three hundred ninety-one years and fifteen days, literally speaking. This is a wonderful prophecy, the only one in the Bible where the time of the fulfillment is given to the very day. At the end of this period, Turkey would cease to be an independent power. Three hundred and ninety-one years and fifteen days from July 27, 1449, brings us to August 11, 1840. There are four great waymarks in the world's history connected with Constantinople. First, when it was founded in 330 a. d. second, its capture by the Turks July 27, 1449; third, when the sultan of Turkey signed away his independence August 11, 1840. There is no date given for the fourth great waymark; namely, when the capital of Turkey will be removed from Constantinople to Jerusalem "between the seas in the glorious holy mountain." {1905 SNH, SSP 176.2}
 
What is the "great waymark" as sign of? What Bible verse talks about it? Has it happened yet?
 
Haskell:
 
This treaty was signed, and the ultimatum was officially put in the power of Mehemet Ali on August 11, 1840. Since that time Turkey has been known everywhere as the "Sick Man of the East." Daniel prophesied concerning him, saying, "He shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him." At any moment, when the jealous powers of Europe can decide, either peaceably, or in battle, which one of them shall occupy Constantinople, the "Sick Man" will speedily take his departure from Europe. That movement, for which nations are now on the alert, will be the sign of still more important changes in the heavenly court. {1905 SNH, SSP 178.1}
 
Is Turkey still the "sick man of the East?" Yes. Would Turkey like to take over Jerusalem? Oh yes! Did the fall of the Ottoman Empire seal the deal ruling out Turkey - nope. Have the events of Daniel 11:45 happened yet? nope.
 
At the time of the end (1798) the kings of the north and the south again contended. From the founding of Constantinople by Constantine in 330, the power which held that city had maintained control of the Mediterranean, for Constantinople is recognized by all nations as the key to both Asia and Europe. In the time of the end, history will again center about this city. As in times past, so again we are obliged to trace far back to find the source of events which now appear in full view. About the time that the papacy was growing into a full-fledged monarchy, recognized among nations of the earth, another power had birth. This new work of Satan came in the form of Mohammedanism, which to-day holds about one sixth of the world's population in its grasp. The new doctrine originated in Arabia, from whence it spread as a smoke from the bottomless pit. Syria fell under its power, but Egypt became the center of its influences. Egypt has felt every evil influence, and the banks of the Nile have fed every form of idolatry. {1901 SNH, SDP 245.3}

Mohammedanism is but another form of Egyptian darkness. By the power of the sword the followers of Mohammed strove to enter Europe. The western horn of the Crescent, the Moslem symbol, was extended into Spain in the early part of the eighth century, and for a time all Europe was threatened, but the battle of Tours (732) stopped the progress of the conquerors. In 1453, however, Constantinople was captured, and has since remained in the hands of the Turks, the boldest advocates of the doctrine of Mohammed. As the founding of Constantinople is a guidepost in history, so the capture of that city in 1453 is another landmark. One of the greatest checks received by the papacy was due to the influx into Italy of Greek scholars, driven from Constantinople by the incoming Mohammedans. The discovery of America was due to the closing of the eastern passage to the rich islands of the Indian Ocean by the Mohammedans in Constantinople and Asia Minor, and so in more ways than is usually thought, God worked to advance truth through those who were ignorant of his truth. {1901 SNH, SDP 246.1}
 
Not only Egypt, but Syria and Turkey in Europe, belonged to the Mohammedans, and he has entered the "glorious land," and a Moslem mosque occupies the site where once stood the temple of Solomon. Edom, Moab, and Ammon, however, escaped the hand of this conquering power, and these countries receive an annual tribute from the Turks who pass in caravans on their way to Mecca. {1901 SNH, SDP 247.1}
 
The ambition of Napoleon to establish the authority of Europe in Egypt might have been the beginning of the last struggle between the north and the south. Even in his day Russia and France made friends, but the time had not yet come for the Turk to take his departure from Europe, and England took the part of Egypt against the arms of Napoleon. Napoleon recognized the strength of Constantinople, so also did Russia, and there has been constant jealousy among the nations of Europe lest one should outwit the others, and become the possessor of that stronghold. {1901 SNH, SDP 247.2}
 
Every eye is centered on that one spot, and has been for years. Turkey is known universally as the "Sick Man of the East," and the only reason he does not die is because intoxicants are administered, figuratively speaking, by first one nation then another. The time will come when he will remove from Constantinople, and take up his abode in Palestine; that is, plant his tabernacle between the Mediterranean and Red Seas. Time and again the world has been brought to realize that the end of all things is near at hand, for all know that when the Turk steps out of Constantinople, there will be a general breaking up of Europe. They may not name this impending conflict the battle of Armageddon, but God has so named it. In the Crimean war of 1853-1856, the world trembled for Turkey, and, lest the crisis should be precipitated, England and France came to the rescue, and Russia was bidden to stand back. In the Russo-Turkish war of 1877, the powers of Europe united to sustain the life of the sick man. {1901 SNH, SDP 247.3}
 
"I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth. . . . And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God; and he cried . . . saying, Hurt not the earth . . . till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads." These angels now hold the winds of strife, waiting for the church of God to prepare for his coming. The sealing angel goes through Jerusalem (the church) to place the seal of the living God on the foreheads of the faithful, and while this work goes forward, Turkey stands as a national guidepost to the world, that men may know what is going on in the sanctuary above. {1901 SNH, SDP 248.1}
 
God's eye is upon his people, and he never leaves himself without a witness in the world. No man knows when Turkey will take its departure from Europe, but when that move is made, earth's history will be short. Then it will be said, "He that is unjust let him be unjust still, . . . and he that is righteous let him be righteous still." To-day is "the day of preparation." The fate of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome is recorded for the edification of the nations of to-day, and the lessons taught by all center in the events just before us. While the world watches Turkey, let the servant of God watch the movements of his great High Priest, whose ministry for sin is almost over. {1901 SNH, SDP 248.2}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188110
12/21/18 08:57 AM
12/21/18 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted By: APL
You want to remove the literal and make it spiritual.

Why do you say that?
You have forgotten what I presented earlier on another thread.

Do you see any of the above outlined in EGW's writings?
No we don't.
The following fits much better:

In prophecy the PLAYERS are Babylon = Media Persia = Grecia = Rome and since 538 (the beginning of the 1260 years) Rome is Papal Christian Rome.

In 538 Christian Rome still occupied the territories north and south of Palestine. The Christian Roman powers controlled Syria, Asia Minor, Egypt and the whole northern coast of Africa.

But then a power FROM THE SOUTH of Palestine began to change the picture. Read your same authors and they will tell about the "locusts" that arose out of the Arabian desert. Where is Arabia? It is South of Palestine! In the 600's the Islamic forces capture Egypt and held it for centuries, they still do! They also captured all of northern Africa (which is south of Christian Roman controlled areas.

Throughout those 1260 years Christian Rome and the Islamic power battled over control of the "holy land".

Islam rose IN THE SOUTH of Palestine, they didn't manage to get the land in Asia Minor till much, much later -- the later Byzantine Christians fought the Islamic Fatimids for the land until the coming of the Seljuq Turks in 1068 CE. Turkish control increased in the region until 1299 AD when Asia Minor became part of the Ottoman Empire

Now it's true the Islamics under the Ottoman Empire pushed the king of the north out of a lot of territory and eventually took over most of Asia minor, but though they took a lot of land from Christian Rome, even Constantinople in 1453, -- yet Christian Rome remained.
At the end of the 1260 years BOTH Christian Rome and the Islamic power lost their power.


So no, I do not "spiritualize" anything away. These are real national powers.
The king of the north is ROME (Roman papal Christian power) that was mightily powerful with lots of armies fighting the king of the south for many centuries.

The king of the south are the Muslims (Islamics)
They sprang up in the south and still control all the territories of the king of the south -- just because they spread like the locusts Revelation 9 pictures them as -- does not change that.


At the time of the end
Ah-- people THOUGHT they had disappeared as BOTH lost their power at the end of the 1260 years --
This was Smith's blind spot -- he even wrote that the papal power was over, past, and how absurd to think it would return.

But 1798 was just the beginning of the "time of the end" --
As we approach the ACTUAL end these two REVIVE --
The idea isn't absurd at all -- it is literal and real!

But the Islamics are not the LAST player --

The Christian world, under one head, (the 1st beast of Rev. 13) and with the power and might of the 2nd beast of Rev. 13, will defeat and subdue the king of the south.

The "spiritual" part? Yes, all the prophecies have a spiritual part! The whole thing plays into a grand deception of looking to Islamic power as the "antichrist" and to papal power as the one bringing peace to earth.

When, as 2 Thess. 2 informs us, that 1st "beast" of Rev. 13 sets himself up in the place of God, in the temple, there will be terrible times, God's people will be condemned. But we are assured that he will come to his end. Christ Himself will stand up for His people

That's where the investigative judgment is such a wonderful belief! We have a higher court to appeal to -- and Christ stands up for His people. Yes, there will be a terrible time of trouble, but God's faithful will be delivered.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188113
12/21/18 10:30 PM
12/21/18 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted By: dedication
In prophecy the PLAYERS are Babylon = Media Persia = Grecia = Rome and since 538 (the beginning of the 1260 years) Rome is Papal Christian Rome.
Who was involved in The First Woe? Who was in volved in the second Woe? Who do you think will be involved in the 3rd Woe? If this Papal Christians? Nope.
Originally Posted By: dedication
But the Islamics are not the LAST player --
EXACTLY!!! And that is what Daniel 11:45 tells use, The KoTN comes to his end, THEN in Daniel 12:1, Michael stands up, and the final events/time of trouble happen. The Papacy goes to the end. The KoTN does not. Follow the simple timeline.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: The King of the North [Re: dedication] #188114
12/22/18 10:10 AM
12/22/18 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted By: dedication
Originally Posted By: APL
You want to remove the literal and make it spiritual.

Why do you say that?
You have forgotten what I presented earlier on another thread.

Do you see any of the above outlined in EGW's writings?
No we don't.
The following fits much better:

In prophecy the PLAYERS are Babylon = Media Persia = Grecia = Rome and since 538 (the beginning of the 1260 years) Rome is Papal Christian Rome.

In 538 Christian Rome still occupied the territories north and south of Palestine. The Christian Roman powers controlled Syria, Asia Minor, Egypt and the whole northern coast of Africa.

But then a power FROM THE SOUTH of Palestine began to change the picture. Read your same authors and they will tell about the "locusts" that arose out of the Arabian desert. Where is Arabia? It is South of Palestine! In the 600's the Islamic forces capture Egypt and held it for centuries, they still do! They also captured all of northern Africa (which is south of Christian Roman controlled areas.

Throughout those 1260 years Christian Rome and the Islamic power battled over control of the "holy land".

Islam rose IN THE SOUTH of Palestine, they didn't manage to get the land in Asia Minor till much, much later -- the later Byzantine Christians fought the Islamic Fatimids for the land until the coming of the Seljuq Turks in 1068 CE. Turkish control increased in the region until 1299 AD when Asia Minor became part of the Ottoman Empire

Now it's true the Islamics under the Ottoman Empire pushed the king of the north out of a lot of territory and eventually took over most of Asia minor, but though they took a lot of land from Christian Rome, even Constantinople in 1453, -- yet Christian Rome remained.
At the end of the 1260 years BOTH Christian Rome and the Islamic power lost their power.


So no, I do not "spiritualize" anything away. These are real national powers.
The king of the north is ROME (Roman papal Christian power) that was mightily powerful with lots of armies fighting the king of the south for many centuries.

The king of the south are the Muslims (Islamics)
They sprang up in the south and still control all the territories of the king of the south -- just because they spread like the locusts Revelation 9 pictures them as -- does not change that.


At the time of the end
Ah-- people THOUGHT they had disappeared as BOTH lost their power at the end of the 1260 years --
This was Smith's blind spot -- he even wrote that the papal power was over, past, and how absurd to think it would return.

But 1798 was just the beginning of the "time of the end" --
As we approach the ACTUAL end these two REVIVE --
The idea isn't absurd at all -- it is literal and real!

But the Islamics are not the LAST player --

The Christian world, under one head, (the 1st beast of Rev. 13) and with the power and might of the 2nd beast of Rev. 13, will defeat and subdue the king of the south.

The "spiritual" part? Yes, all the prophecies have a spiritual part! The whole thing plays into a grand deception of looking to Islamic power as the "antichrist" and to papal power as the one bringing peace to earth.

When, as 2 Thess. 2 informs us, that 1st "beast" of Rev. 13 sets himself up in the place of God, in the temple, there will be terrible times, God's people will be condemned. But we are assured that he will come to his end. Christ Himself will stand up for His people

That's where the investigative judgment is such a wonderful belief! We have a higher court to appeal to -- and Christ stands up for His people. Yes, there will be a terrible time of trouble, but God's faithful will be delivered.


I think the evidence is clear, for those who want to see, that Daniel 11 lines up with the other chapters.

Re: The King of the North [Re: APL] #188132
12/24/18 02:22 PM
12/24/18 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: kland
For some reason I was listening to Jeff Pippenger. Was he referenced from this forum or did I get it from something else? He has something to say about the last president which prior to that I thought he was ok. Don't know now, will have to listen to it. I thought he was once with Amazing Facts.
Pippenger with AF? I doubt he ever was. He is the one pushing the 2520.
Ah yes, further investigation shows he's big on that. Taking verses from one area of the Bible and saying they apply to another, no matter how far off, without any inspired writers doing so.

KJV only.
George Bush is an angel holding back the four winds of Islam.
Numerology with 9T page 11, Rev 9:11.

Seems like I heard the name before. I just stumbled across him on another topic. He sounds similar to some here. I will remember his name, now. Everyone seems to have a last day message, running before they are sent. Such repetitions of such ones cause me to tend to reject those who say they have new light before I hear what they say. I know we are supposed to listen and test, but after so many counting popes and presidents and then re-prophesying and re-prophesying trying to make their beliefs fit with reality is starting to get kind of old.

Maybe I should write a book about it....$

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188133
12/24/18 02:40 PM
12/24/18 02:40 PM
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Questions:
Not who, but what is the king of the south? What does it represent?

Doesn't the papacy fall before the final end?

Re 17:16 "And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

Re 18:8 "Therefore her plagues will come in one day--death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her.
9 "The kings of the earth who committed fornication and lived luxuriously with her will weep and lament for her, when they see the smoke of her burning,

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188136
12/24/18 06:00 PM
12/24/18 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted By: dedication
But honestly -- how does France get into the picture at all?France occupied Egypt for a very short time. Barely a blip in history.

Daniel 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will;
 
Yeah - that is speaking of the Papacy, after all it has such power, even being taken captive. Is that doing according to his will? NO! France fill the bill perfectly.
 
In many of the nations of Europe the powers that ruled in church and state had for centuries been controlled by Satan through the medium of the papacy. But here is brought to view a new manifestation of satanic power. ...This prophecy has received a most exact and striking fulfillment in the history of France. {GC 268-269}
 

The King of the North, cannot be the Papacy, because the Papacy is destroyed by second coming of Jesus Himself. 2 Thessalonians 2:3; “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;” This is talking about the Papacy. Then in 2 Thessalonians 2:8; “And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:” The King of the North cannot come to his end during the plagues, and come to his end again at the Second Coming.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: The King of the North [Re: APL] #188138
12/25/18 06:56 AM
12/25/18 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: dedication
In prophecy the PLAYERS are Babylon = Media Persia = Grecia = Rome and since 538 (the beginning of the 1260 years) Rome is Papal Christian Rome.
Who was involved in The First Woe? Who was in volved in the second Woe? Who do you think will be involved in the 3rd Woe? If this Papal Christians?


Of course Papal Christianity was involved in the "woes" of the trumpets in Revelation.
But the spread of the locusts are the Islamics.

"The "woe, woe, woe!" was pronounced upon a church who walked in the sparks of their own kindling, who did not derive their light and power from the great central Light, the Sun of Righteousness, and diffuse that light and glory to those who were in darkness." PH028.003.002

Notice -- it's a judgment AGAINST the church
The woes predicted that a false, Christless religion would arise to torment the Christian church.

A king of the south arises and fights against the king of the north. These two have been fighting each other since the 600's A.D.

The first woe--
Islam arose in the Arabian peninsula. (A SOUTHERN kingdom)
It is interesting that historians repeatedly refer to the rise and conquests of the Muslims as "locusts"!
Arabia is noted for its locusts.
Five months in prophetic time equals 5 X 30 =150 years. Historians usually place the starting date of the Saracenic conquests under Abu-Bekr, in the year 632 A.D. Between 632 and 641 they conquered Syria, Palestine, Persia, Egypt, by 709 they held all of northern Africa. In 711 they invaded Spain, and moved on into Gaul, where they were stopped by Charles Martel in the Battle of Tours in 732. Though "checked" they were by no means crushed, they continued to "torment" for another half century. It took another two generations for the Franks to drive all the Arab garrisons out of what is now France and across the Pyrenees. Charles Martel's halt of the invasion of Islamic conquests, and the unification of the Frankish kingdom would lead to the "Holy Roman Empire".

By 762 the Saracen Empire started into a new phase,they began to concentrated on luxury and taking their ease. By 782 war was no longer their passion.

The Muslims released during the fifth trumpet, were not to destroy the church but to "torment" the church.

Did the Christian world repent?

Nope.
The fifth trumpet was the first judgment on the apostate church. The Moslem hordes were sent to "torment". But, did this trouble cause the Christian church to repent and turn to God in humble obedience and faith? No! We look in the history of the Christian church and see that the years following the fifth trumpet, the papal powers persecuted the true believers ruthlessly, especially as the papacy gained more and more power between 1000 - 1500 A.D. Would God simply allow this tyrannical church to trample His people or would He send retributive judgment against them?

Thus the second woe comes upon the them:

The Islamic nations unify and become a powerful empire and do serious damage against the church.
Again this is war between the king of the south (Islamic) and the north (papal Christianity).

Though terrible times, it was also a great blessing for the armies were busy fighting Turks and didn't have time to search out and destroy the so called "heretics". This in turn allowed the reformation to gain a foothold and flourish. The popes were busy with their battles with the "king of the south" and were distracted from their mission to crush the reformers.

So once again -- the second woe was a lot of battles between the king of the north and the king of the south.

The third woe --
I believe is another big battle where the king of the south (Islam) attacks in a pushing manner. (11:40) (Exactly what they are doing -- not outright war, but a more devious, frightening manner, with terrible outbreaks, sort of pushing the "king of the north" to retaliate.

And, according to the prophecy he will retaliate in a big way. It will appear that he is winning, but obviously he is highly threatened by something -- As he orders death decrees on many.
I believe it is voices sounding the three angel's message showing that the papacy IS not the one bringing in the "kingdom of truth and peace" that he is professing to be. Christ is the TRUE King of the North.
The earthly king of the north in the ultimate conflict is a counterfeit of Christ.

It has been Satan's ambition to set his throne "on the sides of the north" to be like God.
Isaiah 14:13 I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:


The third woe -- is the final showdown.
The nations are angry -- the earth is being destroyed.
God is judging. And finally Christ comes.

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: dedication
But the Islamics are not the LAST player --
EXACTLY!!! And that is what Daniel 11:45 tells use, The KoTN comes to his end, THEN in Daniel 12:1, Michael stands up, and the final events/time of trouble happen. The Papacy goes to the end. The KoTN does not. Follow the simple timeline.


That's like telling the story
-- A big bully was making a lot of trouble for the school kids. But he was stopped. The principle stood up for the kids, there followed one big terrible fight, but the kids lived in peace after that.

So -- does that paragraph mean, the bully was stopped BEFORE the principle stood up, or that the process of stopping him was begun WHEN the principle stood up, and completed shortly thereafter?

The problem is that you are depending on an uninspired break into a new chapter, and punctuation, dividing those verses, as if it were moving into a different story, when the original gives the story in one continuous flow.

But know -- the king of the south agitates for a fight, the king of the north defeats the king of the south and sets himself up as supreme.
Probably chanting Ps.48:2
Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King.

This is the means by which he will seek to establish the "one world religion" People are now being trained to expect "a messiah" etc. etc. in Jerusalem, and a lot of things will happen to make it SEEM like the millennium is about to begin. But don't be deceived! -- he comes to his end (it doesn't say he died)-- but His power ends BECAUSE Christ stands up for His people and even though he puts up a last desperate fight, all support leaves him, and it marks his end.

Babylon falls!
Revelation 17 shows the ten horns turn against Babylon.
And no, symbolic Babylon is NOT the Islamic nations.

That great system (King of the North) loses it's power and support a short time before it is destroyed by the brightness of Christ's coming.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188140
12/25/18 04:45 PM
12/25/18 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted By: dedication
The problem is that you are depending on an uninspired break into a new chapter, and punctuation, dividing those verses, as if it were moving into a different story, when the original gives the story in one continuous flow.
I'm depending on a chapter break? NO!! What is the next thing that happens after Daniel 11:45? Daniel 12:1 - no artificial break, just a continuation of the timeline. If anything, you it you creating a break. The timeline says the KoTN comes to his end, THEN Michael stands up.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188141
12/26/18 11:37 AM
12/26/18 11:37 AM
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Da 11:32 "Those who do wickedly against the covenant he shall corrupt with flattery; but the people who know their God shall be strong, and carry out great exploits.
33 "And those of the people who understand shall instruct many; yet for many days they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plundering.
34 "Now when they fall, they shall be aided with a little help; but many shall join with them by intrigue.
35 "And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time.

Dedication, is this referring to the papacy?
He will come to his end at the appointed time. Is this the deadly wound?

Da 11:36 "Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done.
37 "He shall regard neither the God of his fathers nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall exalt himself above them all.

So if you follow the same pattern as previously shown in Daniel, where one kingdom falls and another rises, who is this new king and the "he"? Should it be the one who rises after the papacy suffers the deadly wound? Who is that?

Re: The King of the North [Re: kland] #188149
12/27/18 08:12 AM
12/27/18 08:12 AM
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Good questions, Kland

Yes, I think we agree those texts (30-35) are about the papacy.
Notice verse 35 doesn't say he "came to his end"
it says "it is still for the appointed time."

Verse 36 Doesn't say "there arose another"
It simply says, "then the king shall...."

Now let's assume vs 36, does mark the transition point in the papacy. His political power receives the "deadly wound" persecution ceases.

We still need to remember -- it was the political power that received the "deadly wound", the papacy as leader of his church continued.

What is rather remarkable is that the papacy made up for it's lose of political power, by making some of the most blasphemous claims yet. Definitely "exalting himself" !!

Claiming the prerogatives of God, was nothing new for the papacy, but now it reached new heights. As papal power waned, papal pretensions increased.

Pope Pius IX's called for the convening of the First Vatican Council on December 8, 1869.
In July 18, 1870, the Council promulgated the dogma of Papal Infallibility.

The concept of Ultramontanism was established -- this was a reaction against the growing secular control. It was basically established to bind the church close to the papacy, asserting the need for concentrating authority in the pope’s hands. Ultramontane centralizes the authority of the church in Rome so as to escape from the control of the secular state.

Thus we have a dogma of Papal infallibility proclaimed in 1870
We see the internal affairs of the Catholic church controlled by the Roman Curia world wide.

The proclamation of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception in December 1854 represented a distinct triumph for the Ultramontanes, as the whole affair was deliberately staged to dramatize the authority of the "Holy Father".

Pius IX was the first modern pope to use "grand scale audiences" to develop the "devotion to the Pope".
Idolatry to the papacy was voiced by his observers, as if it were God Himself among them. "The Holy Father" is revered while scripture says in Matt. 23.9 "Call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven."
This of course, has grown to unbelievable heights of adoration, not at all limited to Catholic members.

So basically what happened --
The papacy lost political control.
It quickly started programs of "papal exaltation"
"he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god"

and it would work -- he would prosper (until the wound was totally healed)

Yes, the one who received the deadly wound, exalts himself and revives, till his wound is healed and in verses 40-45 he plays his final game.



Re: The King of the North [Re: APL] #188150
12/27/18 08:19 AM
12/27/18 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted By: APL

The timeline says the KoTN comes to his end, THEN Michael stands up.


No, if you read it carefully it does not say he comes to his end then....

It says "yet he shall come to his end" (that is a future sense)
He is GOING to end...

It doesn't say "then (as in after that) Michael stands up.
But "AT THAT TIME Michael stands up.
This is clearly connecting the ending process of the kofN WITH Michael standing up. The plagues will fall, KofN's support dries up. His power evaporates.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188152
12/27/18 03:19 PM
12/27/18 03:19 PM
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Daniel 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

He shall come to his end, and none shall help him - AT THAT TIME, Michael stands up, probation closes and the full on time of trouble comes. But of course, you are free to read it the way you want to, for much of what YOU add is an interpretation, with added words and you object to the word "then"? The time line is straight forward, and the idea of my breaking it up at the artificial is chapter breaks is pretty funny. The majority pioneer view does not match your new view, and your view does not match the geography, all of which are relevant to the topic.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: The King of the North [Re: dedication] #188157
12/28/18 10:34 PM
12/28/18 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted By: dedication
Now let's assume vs 36, does mark the transition point in the papacy. His political power receives the "deadly wound" persecution ceases.

We still need to remember -- it was the political power that received the "deadly wound", the papacy as leader of his church continued.
Ok, so let's talk about the political power. Who took over the political power?

Will the papacy, who lost the political power as the deadly wound, will it regain political power. So who took over it after it lost it? Who caused it to lose that political power following the same pattern as Babylon <= Medo-Persia <= Greece <= Rome <= Papacy <=?

Re: The King of the North [Re: kland] #188162
12/30/18 05:40 AM
12/30/18 05:40 AM
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Originally Posted By: kland

Ok, so let's talk about the political power. Who took over the political power?

Will the papacy, who lost the political power as the deadly wound, will it regain political power. So who took over it after it lost it? Who caused it to lose that political power following the same pattern as Babylon <= Medo-Persia <= Greece <= Rome <= Papacy <=?


Will the papacy, who lost the political power as the deadly wound, will it regain political power?
Yes -- it will regain it's primacy over the nations.

Rev 13:3-4 his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast,

Babylon (head of gold, lion)
Media Persia (chest of silver, bear, ram)
Grecia (bronze, leopard, he-goat)
Rome (iron legs, beast, huge horn)
Divided Rome with papacy (ten toes of iron and clay, ten horns with one stout horn, huge horn)

And THAT'S IT!!!!
There are no more kingdoms in the progression of kingdoms in Daniel 2, 7, 8.

Who took over the "political power" after the papacy lost it?

The "ten horns" (you'll find ten European countries again, who were under papal supremacy -- Tuscany, Austria, Bavaria, Bohemia, Prussia, Portugal, Spain, France, Britain, Netherlands and more) no longer allowed the papacy (the stout horn) to tell them what to do.

One of the ten horns (France) got the notion of uniting the ten horns under their banner -- the story of Napoleon --
and he set out to do so with considerable success at first, including his conquest of Italy and the papacy, but he met his "waterloo".

So the papacy's political power was initially removed by one of the ten horns -- France under Napolean -- the story of ambitious princes arising among those ten horns trying to unite the ten horns has always failed. Daniel states "they shall not cleave one to another".

All through Papal history, the papacy saw to it that Italy NEVER became a single country. That way the papal throne of political power was not in danger of being overpowered by the local state. The Italian peninsula in 1790's was not a single nation but rather lots of smaller countries, some of them under the jurisdiction of Spain, a couple others under Austria, a few under France, etc..

Italy was one of Napoleon's chief conquests in Europe, and he became master of the Italian peninsula. He made some major changes in their political picture, setting up a republic with himself or a son being the "president". But after Napoleon passed off the scene, 1815, the Congress of Vienna freed Italy from French domination. Austria, however, still exercised considerable power in Italy for several more years. Italy struggled to gain it's independence from members of the other ten horns.

In 1859, Italian nationalist leaders were able to drive the Austrian control from Italy and united many of the smaller states. The Kingdom of Italy was proclaimed in 1861; Venetia was annexed after the Austro-Prussian war in 1866; and Rome was taken from the Pope in 1870.

So basically -- the answer to your question --
the ten horns no longer accepted the "stout horn" as being able to frighten them into compliance with the threat of "excommunication" etc. And they took the political power to themselves.











Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188166
12/31/18 03:26 PM
12/31/18 03:26 PM
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So the political power was taken away. The papacy will get it back in the future, but for now someone else has it. Interesting, I have heard the thought that the papacy was still in control but had puppets for distraction. Different way of looking at it, I guess.

With the 10 horns, Arius comes to mind. Who was he, where was he from, what part did he play in the scene?

Re: The King of the North [Re: Charity] #188241
01/13/19 11:54 AM
01/13/19 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted By: Charity
Originally Posted By: Rick H
This vision begins with a reference to Cyrus and ends with God’s people delivered. Like the other chapters in Daniel it is not just past history but covers from his time to the end of the world.

So, from the 50's to today the church has mostly reverted back to the White view (James). Tim Roosenburg's view is similar to James White but he says the King of the North is the combined forces of Christianity, Catholic and Protestant and that the King of the South is radical Islam. That's a better fit with scripture imo. What are your thoughts?


Well, we are being broken up by people bringing in Islam to replace the Papacy. It is a 'red herring' as they say, just to deviate enough to throw us off and bring disunity and confusion. Here is a study my friend Amo showed me by Louis F Were that he had found to be very informative. The author is hitting the mark, and I like what he has in the beginning..

"Concerning the interpretation of Daniel’s previous prophecies Seventh-day Adventists are united.,But the same unity is not maintained concerning the interpretation of Daniel’s last prophecy – the reason for this is because the concluding portion of Daniel 11 (vs. 36-45) is not interpreted according to the same principle by which the previous parts are interpreted. When God’s people apply this principle consistently, the unity manifested concerning the earlier prophecies of Daniel will also exist in regard to this last prophecy. When this time comes as it surely will – there will be seen among us “a great revival,” that “great revival” which the Lord’s servant declares will come “when the books of Daniel and Revelation” are “better understood.” Testimonies to Ministers, p. 113." http://the2520.com/PDFs/KingOfTheNorth-Were.pdf


Last edited by Rick H; 01/13/19 11:54 AM.
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188242
01/13/19 12:48 PM
01/13/19 12:48 PM
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Notice he also states "A right understanding of Daniel 11:40-45 concerning the ending of the king of the, north at Jerusalem will be found to throw a flood of light upon other portions of the Scriptures that are vital to the Third Angel’s Message: it will be found to contain a thrilling message of triumph for the people of God....

Our attention should be arrested by the fact that in the scores of places where the Lord’s servant refers to Daniel’s prophecy of the deliverance of God’s people, greatly enlarging upon the theme in her graphic descriptions of that great event, she does not make the slightest reference to the ending of Turkey!

For instance, read chapters 40 and 41 of “Great Controversy” concerning “God’s People Delivered,” and observe at this deliverance of the people of God is described in connection with the judgments which fall upon Babylon. In “Early Writings,” pp. 282-285, in the chapter, “The Time of Trouble,” God’s servant invariably speaks of the deliverance of God’s people in connection with the enforcement of Babylon’s false Sabbath and the attempt to slay the Lord’s people for their loyalty to the Law of God. Not the slightest reference is made to Turkey’s doom! Yet in Daniel 11:45; 12:1 the ending of the king of the north is mentioned in connection with the deliverance of God’s people! The obvious conclusion derived from this association is that the king of the north is responsible for the “dangers” and “conflicts” of the church, and that it is his evil work against the church which necessitates the Lord’s intervention to bring “deliverance” to His people.

As the king of the north does the same work as the Papacy there can be but one conclusion, namely, that the king of the north refers to the Papacy. Thus we see why John the Revelator and the servant of the Lord describe “the final, deliverance of the people of God” while describing God’s judgments upon spiritual Babylon. Daniel, John, and the Spirit of Prophecy are in perfect agreement!"

Last edited by Rick H; 01/13/19 12:49 PM.
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188251
01/13/19 04:28 PM
01/13/19 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted By: Rick H
Well, we are being broken up by people bringing in Islam to replace the Papacy. It is a 'red herring' as they say, just to deviate enough to throw us off and bring disunity and confusion.


Tim R isn't saying the King of the North is Islam. He agrees with James White that it is Rome and Rome's allies, the fallen Protestant churches. James White and Rosenburg are in complete agreement on that point. There is no disunity or confusion there.

Regarding who the king of the South is at the end of Daniel 11, as I recall White was cautious on that point because he wasn't sure. Tim suggests Islam. And since Tim is not pushing the idea as a test, it shouldn't cause division. It could be Islam and communism. It could be primarily communism but given the literal meaning of the chapter, Islam fits quite well I'd say.

When it comes to unfulfilled prophecies like the identity of the king of the south we have to be humble and admit we don't know for sure. And even regarding the mark of the beast we've been cautioned that there is more to learn on that point. Having a diversity of gifts means we're going to see things from different angles. The good new is that unity and the flood of light will come as we are sanctified in the truth. It is sanctification in our daily lives that makes it possible for the Holy Spirit to unlock the sealed prophecies to the church and bring a flood of light. May God help us is my prayer.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188256
01/13/19 11:43 PM
01/13/19 11:43 PM
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The view that the papacy is the King of the North is a satanic deception.


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188259
01/14/19 06:15 AM
01/14/19 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted By: Hischild
The view that the papacy is the King of the North is a satanic deception.

I know Catholics would agree with you, as well as many Protestants with their more congenial interpretations as they clasp hands with Catholicism.

They all now look with distain at former interpretations which held the idea of the Papal power being the "little horn" the "beast" the "whore" "the king of the north" and they would agree with you that those views are a satanic deception.
(That's not saying you dispute all those symbols, yet your strong statement is one peg in going down that path)

But what is the REAL deception that is about to sweep the world? All this, peace, peace, the papal power is for good not evil, that is a popular sentiment in the Christian world today, is just disarming people so they won't resist the great deception.
This is not to disparage any Bible Christians but to warn them to look to Jesus NOT to religious world leaders.

Quote:
As we approach the last crisis it is of vital moment
that harmony and unity exist among the Lord's instrumentalities. The world is filled with storm and war and variance. Yet under one head--the papal power--the people will unite to oppose God in the person of His witnesses. This union is cemented by the great apostate.--7T 182 (1902). {LDE 131.5}
Laws enforcing the observance of Sunday as the Sabbath will bring about a national apostasy from the principles of republicanism upon which the government has been founded. The religion of the papacy will be accepted by the rulers, and the law of God will be made void.--7MR 192 (1906). {LDE 132.1}
A day of great intellectual darkness has been shown to be favorable to the success of popery. It will yet be demonstrated that a day of great intellectual light is equally favorable for its success.--4SP 390 (1884). {LDE 132.2}
In the movements now in progress in the United States to secure for the institutions and usages of the church the support of the state, Protestants are following in the steps of papists. Nay, more, they are opening the door for the papacy to regain in Protestant America the supremacy which she has lost in the Old World.--GC 573 (1911). {LDE 132.3}
God's Word has given warning of the impending danger; let this be unheeded, and the Protestant world will learn what the purposes of Rome really are, only when it is too late to escape the snare. She is silently growing into power. Her doctrines are exerting their influence in legislative halls, in the churches, and in the hearts of men. She is piling up her lofty and massive structures, in the secret recesses of which her former persecutions will be repeated. Stealthily and unsuspectedly she is strengthening her forces to further her own ends when the time shall come for her to strike. All that she desires is vantage-ground, and this is already being given her. We shall soon see and shall feel what the purpose of the Roman element is. Whoever shall believe and obey the Word of God will thereby incur reproach and persecution. {GC88 581.1}



Re: The King of the North [Re: dedication] #188272
01/16/19 02:43 AM
01/16/19 02:43 AM
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Originally Posted By: Hischild
The view that the papacy is the King of the North is a satanic deception.

Originally Posted By: dedication
I know Catholics would agree with you, as well as many Protestants with their more congenial interpretations as they clasp hands with Catholicism.

They all now look with distain at former interpretations which held the idea of the Papal power being the "little horn" the "beast" the "whore" "the king of the north" and they would agree with you that those views are a satanic deception.
(That's not saying you dispute all those symbols, yet your strong statement is one peg in going down that path)

But what is the REAL deception that is about to sweep the world? All this, peace, peace, the papal power is for good not evil, that is a popular sentiment in the Christian world today, is just disarming people so they won't resist the great deception.
This is not to disparage any Bible Christians but to warn them to look to Jesus NOT to religious world leaders.


you read too much from you imagination into my words.

The king of the north is Apostate Protestantism under President Trump and soon to be under President Pence.

The King of the South is Iran, soon to be at war with the US.

And this unity of which you quote below is not the unity that you promote that believes and teaches error. Only those who unlearn error and embrace truth will be in the unified Church when Jesus comes. But the Laodicean mindset is so strong that too many have need of nothing and nothing is what they will get: To those who have more will be given and to those who lack their little bit will be taken away.


Quote:
As we approach the last crisis it is of vital moment
that harmony and unity exist among the Lord's instrumentalities. The world is filled with storm and war and variance. Yet under one head--the papal power--the people will unite to oppose God in the person of His witnesses. This union is cemented by the great apostate.--7T 182 (1902). {LDE 131.5}
Laws enforcing the observance of Sunday as the Sabbath will bring about a national apostasy from the principles of republicanism upon which the government has been founded. The religion of the papacy will be accepted by the rulers, and the law of God will be made void.--7MR 192 (1906). {LDE 132.1}
A day of great intellectual darkness has been shown to be favorable to the success of popery. It will yet be demonstrated that a day of great intellectual light is equally favorable for its success.--4SP 390 (1884). {LDE 132.2}
In the movements now in progress in the United States to secure for the institutions and usages of the church the support of the state, Protestants are following in the steps of papists. Nay, more, they are opening the door for the papacy to regain in Protestant America the supremacy which she has lost in the Old World.--GC 573 (1911). {LDE 132.3}
God's Word has given warning of the impending danger; let this be unheeded, and the Protestant world will learn what the purposes of Rome really are, only when it is too late to escape the snare. She is silently growing into power. Her doctrines are exerting their influence in legislative halls, in the churches, and in the hearts of men. She is piling up her lofty and massive structures, in the secret recesses of which her former persecutions will be repeated. Stealthily and unsuspectedly she is strengthening her forces to further her own ends when the time shall come for her to strike. All that she desires is vantage-ground, and this is already being given her. We shall soon see and shall feel what the purpose of the Roman element is. Whoever shall believe and obey the Word of God will thereby incur reproach and persecution. {GC88 581.1}


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188273
01/17/19 06:32 AM
01/17/19 06:32 AM
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The king of the north gathers up Protestantism that has given up the protest and returned to the "father" pope. Remember the speech of the pope Francis where he quotes Malachi 4 in a video played at a protestant gathering in the USA and everyone cheers. The speaker keeps saying the "protest is over" as if that was a great and wonderful thing?

Remember the News saying"
"Another Ecumenical Breakthrough: Swedish Megachurch Pastor Converts to Catholicism"

Now ask yourselves a question -- how does converting to Catholicism relate to "a breakthrough in Ecumenicalism"?
Obviously ecumenicalism is a return to Catholicism -- exactly what prophecy said would happen.

Don't you remember the pope's visit to America, to the White House etc, and all the red carpet and speeches in high places, with some rather symbolic moves.

"God's Word has given warning of the impending danger; let this be unheeded, and the Protestant world will learn what the purposes of Rome really are, only when it is too late to escape the snare."

The pope has always relied on powerful nations through which it achieves it's power. Prophecy shows the end time world power the papacy will use. Whoever controls America controls the world -- and we read in GC 581 that Rome is gaining huge influence in the legislative halls, in the churches, in the hearts of the people, strengthening her forces to further HER OWN ENDS, and she will strike.


Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188274
01/17/19 03:45 PM
01/17/19 03:45 PM
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What you say about the papacy is true EXCEPT - show that the king of the north is the Papacy from inspired writings, you can't, you are assuming that. The king of the north is the power that holds the territory in the North with respect to Israel, and who would that currently be? Will the current KoTN fulfill Daniel 11:40-45? He comes to his end, and then Michael (not Pence) stands up, and WHO is then left?

James White:
"In exposition of unfulfilled prophecy, where the history is not written, the student should put forth his propositions with not too much positiveness, lest he find himself straying in the field of fancy.
 
"There are those who think more of future truth than of present truth. They see but little light in the path in which they walk, but think they see great light ahead of them.
 
"Positions taken upon the Eastern question are based upon prophecies which have not yet met their fulfillment. Here we should tread lightly, and take positions carefully, lest we be found removing the landmarks fully established in the advent movement. It may be said that there is a general agreement upon this subject, and that all eyes are turned toward the war now in progress between Turkey and Russia as the fulfillment of that portion of prophecy which will give great confirmation of faith in the soon loud cry and close of our message. But what will be the result of this positiveness in unfulfilled prophecies should things not come out as very confidently expected, is an anxious question". {James White, RH Nov. 29, 1877}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: The King of the North [Re: dedication] #188276
01/18/19 03:18 AM
01/18/19 03:18 AM
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Originally Posted By: dedication
The king of the north gathers up Protestantism that has given up the protest and returned to the "father" pope. Remember the speech of the pope Francis where he quotes Malachi 4 in a video played at a protestant gathering in the USA and everyone cheers. The speaker keeps saying the "protest is over" as if that was a great and wonderful thing?

Remember the News saying"
"Another Ecumenical Breakthrough: Swedish Megachurch Pastor Converts to Catholicism"

Now ask yourselves a question -- how does converting to Catholicism relate to "a breakthrough in Ecumenicalism"?
Obviously ecumenicalism is a return to Catholicism -- exactly what prophecy said would happen.

Don't you remember the pope's visit to America, to the White House etc, and all the red carpet and speeches in high places, with some rather symbolic moves.

"God's Word has given warning of the impending danger; let this be unheeded, and the Protestant world will learn what the purposes of Rome really are, only when it is too late to escape the snare."

The pope has always relied on powerful nations through which it achieves it's power. Prophecy shows the end time world power the papacy will use. Whoever controls America controls the world -- and we read in GC 581 that Rome is gaining huge influence in the legislative halls, in the churches, in the hearts of the people, strengthening her forces to further HER OWN ENDS, and she will strike.



Quote:
And when the Papacy, robbed of its strength, was forced to desist from persecution, John beheld a new power coming up to echo the dragon's voice, and carry forward the same cruel and blasphemous work. This power, the last that is to wage war against the church and the law of God, was symbolized by a beast with lamblike horns.ST, November 1, 1899 par. 4


Da 11:6 And in the end of years [end of the 2300 years after 1844] they shall join themselves together [King of the North Britain & King of the South France in the Crimean War]; for the king’s daughter of the south [papacy having been subjugated by France in 1798] shall come to the king of the north to make an agreement [to prevent Italian unification and loss of Papal States]: but she shall not retain the power of the arm; neither shall he stand, nor his arm: but she shall be given up, and they that brought her, and he that begat her, and he that strengthened her in these times.

Da 11:7 But out of a branch of her roots [papacy had 2 roots Church state] shall one [Mussolini] stand up in his estate, which shall come with an army, and shall enter into the fortress annexation of part of Kenya] of the king of the north [Great Britain], and shall deal against them, and shall prevail [Britain gave the territory to Italy rather than fight]: [During WWII the king of the North transitioned from Britain to FDR/USA]

Da 11:8 And shall also carry captives into Egypt their gods, with their princes, and with their precious vessels of silver and of gold; and he [Mussolini] shall continue more years than the king of the north [FDR].

Da 11:11 And the king of the south [returned to Egypt] shall be moved with choler, and shall come forth and fight with him [USA via our ally ISRAEL] , even with the king of the north: and he [Egypt] shall set forth a great multitude; but the multitude shall be given into his hand.

Da 11:13 For the king of the north shall return, and shall set forth a multitude greater than the former, and shall certainly come after certain years with a great army and with much riches.

Da 11:15 So the king of the north [USA] shall come, and cast up a mount, and take the most fenced cities: and the arms of the south [moved from Egypt to Iraq] shall not withstand, neither his chosen people, neither shall there be any strength to withstand.

Da 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south [moved from Iraq to Iran]push at him: and the king of the north [USA] shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188282
01/19/19 02:00 AM
01/19/19 02:00 AM
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That is where we differ --
I do not accept a futuristic interpretation of the prophecies.
Daniel 11 follows history from Daniel's time to the end.
Each cycle in Daniel 2,7,8,and 11 cover all of history from Daniel's time to Christ setting up His kingdom.

Thus
Daniel 11:1-2 is about Media Persia
Daniel 11:3-4 is about Grecia taking over under Alexander and breaking into four parts
Daniel 11:5-14 is about the two major Grecian parts fighting with Palestine in the middle.
Daniel 11:15 introduces Rome "robbers of my People"
Daniel 11:15-19 Rome prior to the Emperor status
Daniel 11:20-22 Rome's first Emperor Caesar Augustus, and following emperors, the beginning of Christianity, the fall of Jerusalem, death of Christ and persecution of Christians.
Daniel 11:23-24 Christianity unites with Rome during Constantine's reign. Grooming of the papacy.
Daniel 11:25-30 Battles centering on the political establishment, crusades etc. of the papacy.
Daniel 11:30 -39 Religious tyranny and professions of the papacy.
Daniel 11:40-45 The resurrected papal power gathering all Christianity again under it's "head" in the last desperate attempt to rule the world.
But he will come to his end, loose his supporters when Christ stands up for His people.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188283
01/19/19 02:27 AM
01/19/19 02:27 AM
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The papacy makes it's strongest statement yet that all Christians MUST unite

Christian Unity is not an Option, says pope Francis

And remember, just a few years ago the Vatican made a public statement that the Catholic church is NOT a "sister church" but the "mother church". And the papacy still maintains primacy over religion.

Don't be blind ==
UNDER ONE HEAD -- the papacy--


That is not speculative playing with prophecy, that is revealed by inspired writings.


True -- protestants in the USA, once they have fully joined themselves to the papacy, will supply the political power that will enforce the papal mandates, but the HEAD is the papacy.
Just like the Franks were the political power to enforce papal mandates in the middle ages, but the papacy was the HEAD.

History will be repeated
(that does not mean reinterpret the prophecies, but learn from history)




Re: The King of the North [Re: dedication] #188292
01/19/19 11:23 PM
01/19/19 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted By: dedication
The papacy makes it's strongest statement yet that all Christians MUST unite

Christian Unity is not an Option, says pope Francis

And remember, just a few years ago the Vatican made a public statement that the Catholic church is NOT a "sister church" but the "mother church". And the papacy still maintains primacy over religion.

Don't be blind ==
UNDER ONE HEAD -- the papacy--


That is not speculative playing with prophecy, that is revealed by inspired writings.


True -- protestants in the USA, once they have fully joined themselves to the papacy, will supply the political power that will enforce the papal mandates, but the HEAD is the papacy.
Just like the Franks were the political power to enforce papal mandates in the middle ages, but the papacy was the HEAD.

History will be repeated
(that does not mean reinterpret the prophecies, but learn from history)





Instead of staying true to the Laodicean attitude that refuses to consider anything (because it is so self confident that nobody can tell it anything...not even Jesus): Try honestly looking at the facts prayerfully.

In Revelation 10 There are statement of special significance relation to the end of the 2300 years, i.e., at the time of the Great Advent Disappointment:

1) Time will be no longer

2) prophesy again


In one sense it is saying that the 2300 year time limitation on Daniel 11:1-12:1 has ended (Time will be no longer). And the command to prophesy again is a direct command to Daniel {11} to prophesy again.

When Jesus stood to confess His people before His Father and His angels, Daniel 11:1-12:1 was fulfilled from the 3 kings in Persia that issued their decrees to rebuild through the commencement of the Investigative Judgment).

In response to the command to prophesy again...after 1844, the prophecy in Daniel 11 repeats Beginning at verse 6 when The King of the North, Great Britain, joins with France, the king of the south, in the Crimean War. France became KOS when it exercised authority over Egypt in 1799. Great Britain became KON in 1840 when it compelled Ottoman Empire to accept its protection.

The papacy is the DAUGHTER OF THE KING OF THE SOUTH BECAUSE OF 1798. And I posted the major verses earlier in this thread to show how the prophecy that was repeated was fulfilled.

Prior to 1844, William Miller recognized that the Kings of the North and South had become European powers. Thus, the Kings of the North and South had become Great Britain and France.

Quote:
“Spain, in the south, and Great Britain, in the north…” “Spain…joined the French.” Evidence From Scripture and History of the Second Coming of Christ About the year 1843, William Miller (1841) p. 105


Quote:
The prophecy in the eleventh of Daniel has nearly reached its complete fulfillment. Much of the history that has taken place in fulfillment of this prophecy will be repeated. {13MR 394.1}



Quote:
The books of Daniel and the Revelation are one.{1MR 99.3}


Quote:
The Lord Himself revealed...and He designs that they shall be open to the study of all. In this book are depicted scenes that are now in the past, and some of eternal interest that are taking place around us; other of its prophecies will not receive their complete fulfillment until the close of time, when the last great conflict between the powers of darkness and the Prince of heaven will take place. RH, August 31, 1897 par. 5


Quote:
The teachings of this book are definite, not mystical and unintelligible. In it the same line of prophecy is taken up as in Daniel. Some prophecies God has repeated, thus showing that importance must be given to them. The Lord does not repeat things that are of no great consequence.--Ms 107, 1897, pp. 1, 2.

Last edited by His child; 01/19/19 11:26 PM.

"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188295
01/20/19 12:10 AM
01/20/19 12:10 AM
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Quote:
Through paganism, and then through the Papacy, Satan exerted his power for many centuries in an effort to blot from the earth God's faithful witnesses. Pagans and papists were actuated by the same dragon spirit. They differed only in that the Papacy, making a pretense of serving God, was the more dangerous and cruel foe. Through the agency of Romanism, Satan took the world captive. The professed church of God was swept into the ranks of this delusion, and for more than a thousand years the people of God suffered under the dragon's ire. And when the Papacy, robbed of its strength, was forced to desist from persecution, John beheld a new power coming up to echo the dragon's voice, and carry forward the same cruel and blasphemous work. This power, the last that is to wage war against the church and the law of God, was symbolized by a beast with lamblike horns. The beasts preceding it had risen from the sea, but this came up out of the earth, representing the peaceful rise of the nation which is symbolized. The "two horns like a lamb" well represent the character of the United States Government, as expressed in its two fundamental principles, Republicanism and Protestantism. These principles are the secret of our power and prosperity as a nation. Those who first found an asylum on the shores of America rejoiced that they had reached a country free from the arrogant claims of popery and the tyranny of kingly rule. They determined to establish a government upon the broad foundation of civil and religious liberty. {ST, November 1, 1899 par. 4}


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: The King of the North [Re: dedication] #188303
01/21/19 02:13 PM
01/21/19 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted By: dedication
The papacy makes it's strongest statement yet that all Christians MUST unite:

Christian Unity is not an Option, says pope Francis.

Thanks Dedication for sharing that link. It is a must read.

Re: The King of the North [Re: His child] #188304
01/21/19 02:46 PM
01/21/19 02:46 PM
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Henry I agree with everything you said regarding future applications. We differ on how they apply. I keep coming back to the example of James White in advising caution when it comes to unfulfilled prophecy. Futurists often get caught up in speculation regarding specific events and in making assertions about things that are uncertain. In doing this they cause disunity and detract from the overall prophetic message which is a revelation of Jesus Christ. Our focus has to stay on the three messages that reveal Christ in his sanctuary making the final atonement for the Israel of God. In vision Ellen White was shown the mighty angel of Revelation 18 pointing directly to Christ and his ministry in the sanctuary as he gave the loud cry. I'll post more on this final atonement of the remnant in a new topic later.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Charity] #188322
01/24/19 02:43 AM
01/24/19 02:43 AM
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Interesting!


"...I will not forget you.
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."

Isaiah 49:15-16
Re: The King of the North [Re: Charity] #188323
01/24/19 02:49 AM
01/24/19 02:49 AM
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Originally Posted By: Charity
Originally Posted By: dedication
The papacy makes it's strongest statement yet that all Christians MUST unite:

Christian Unity is not an Option, says pope Francis.

Thanks Dedication for sharing that link. It is a must read.



What do you make of the theme in 2019, "Justice, and only justice, you shall pursue ..." inspired by Deuteronomy 16:18-20.

Could this be referring to the social justice movement being employed to undermine national sovereignty by shifting global populations?

"Judges and officers shalt thou make thee in all thy gates, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, throughout thy tribes: and they shall judge the people with just judgment."
Deuteronomy 16:18


"...I will not forget you.
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."

Isaiah 49:15-16
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188327
01/24/19 12:11 PM
01/24/19 12:11 PM
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Yes the papacy is foremost in advocating a distorted notion of justice. Revelation 11 unmasks what is termed social justice. By normalizing sexual immorality and endorsing evolution (the papacy grants indulgences for all sins claiming the power to forgive and teaching effectively the doctrine of the Nicholaitans. And it denies the six day creation saying that evolution is compatible with scripture.) the papacy leads the way in slaying the two witnesses. Yet it does this in the name of justice.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Charity] #188344
01/26/19 04:28 AM
01/26/19 04:28 AM
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Originally Posted By: Charity
Henry I agree with everything you said regarding future applications. We differ on how they apply. I keep coming back to the example of James White in advising caution when it comes to unfulfilled prophecy. Futurists often get caught up in speculation regarding specific events and in making assertions about things that are uncertain. In doing this they cause disunity and detract from the overall prophetic message which is a revelation of Jesus Christ. Our focus has to stay on the three messages that reveal Christ in his sanctuary making the final atonement for the Israel of God. In vision Ellen White was shown the mighty angel of Revelation 18 pointing directly to Christ and his ministry in the sanctuary as he gave the loud cry. I'll post more on this final atonement of the remnant in a new topic later.


Charity,

I am a historicist as were James and Ellen White. I follow prophecy that has been fulfilled as they did. Occasionally, I encounter it on the cutting edge and call what is about to happen as they did in 1843 and 1844.

In the case of pope Benedict, from September 2011 through September 2012, I called it 8 times that he would not be pope in 2013... but he might last till the Spring of 2013. He resigned in February. Then I went back to the prophecy and learned from its fulfillment what I had not completely understood before he resigned as did the Adventist pioneers when Christ did not come in 1843 or 1844.

When it came to President Obama being the last President, the beast from the earth has 2 lamblike horns: Bush II and Obama. That is how I called it. But then came Trump. So it was back to the Bible and comparing history and prophecy. Now I understand that the duo horns are doubled (4 American presidents) that's how Trump fits into the prophecy: The war with Iran will get him impeached. Michael Pence will stand for his people. And Michael will stand for His people.

The USA is the king of the north and Iran is the king of the south.
Unfortunately, the last events will be rapid ones and those Laodiceans that refused to look at Bible prophecy that did not agree with their notions, may miss their golden opportunity as did those in Noah's Day that waited to go into the ark.

Unfortunately, people like dedication have forgotten how God has led His people in the past: with time prophecy and near misses. So that the wheat and tares could be separated.

The time allotted for the Judgment of the dead and living has ended. We are in the final shaking/sealing of the 144K and the 4th angel in Revelation is sounding.

I cannot be more certain. The warning has been given.
Christian regards

I have been faithful to tell what I understood as I understood it and to keep prayerfully studying to grow as the Holy Spirit leads.


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: The King of the North [Re: His child] #188372
01/28/19 06:33 PM
01/28/19 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted By: His child

When it came to President Obama being the last President, the beast from the earth has 2 lamblike horns: Bush II and Obama. That is how I called it. But then came Trump. So it was back to the Bible and comparing history and prophecy. Now I understand that the duo horns are doubled (4 American presidents) that's how Trump fits into the prophecy: The war with Iran will get him impeached. Michael Pence will stand for his people. And Michael will stand for His people.

So now you are claiming Pence will be the last president?
Will that still count if Trump gets a second term?
By what Biblical reason do you say there were 4 horns?

Re: The King of the North [Re: kland] #188396
01/30/19 11:32 AM
01/30/19 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: His child

When it came to President Obama being the last President, the beast from the earth has 2 lamblike horns: Bush II and Obama. That is how I called it. But then came Trump. So it was back to the Bible and comparing history and prophecy. Now I understand that the duo horns are doubled (4 American presidents) that's how Trump fits into the prophecy: The war with Iran will get him impeached. Michael Pence will stand for his people. And Michael will stand for His people.

So now you are claiming Pence will be the last president?
Will that still count if Trump gets a second term?
By what Biblical reason do you say there were 4 horns?


Knowledge increases as we prayerfully study.
For your sake, I hope that President Trump gets a second term.

As I am currently reading Daniel and Revelation:
America goes to war with Iran
Trump gets impeached
Michael stands: Pence and Christ.

My 400 page book is being scaled down to 200 or less pages. Short and to the point. but you just read the conclusion.


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188411
01/30/19 10:06 PM
01/30/19 10:06 PM
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Two assumptions. One is that I am for Trump getting a second term. I do not recall expressing for or against.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188443
02/08/19 05:36 PM
02/08/19 05:36 PM
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Two people that I know told me two days ago that Trump will go down in history as being one of the best presidents that the USA ever had.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

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Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188447
02/09/19 12:49 AM
02/09/19 12:49 AM
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smile Brother, I am laughing and shaking my head.


I am not worthy of the least of all the mercies, and of all the truth, which Thou hast shewed unto Thy servant;...
Gen 32:10
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188455
02/09/19 12:57 PM
02/09/19 12:57 PM
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Trump was placed in office by God as sure as Presidents Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, Bush II, Obama, and Pence.


Daniel 4, 11, & 12 explains that. But Satan is casting his shadow over our biblical research to keep us ignorant until the Investigative judgment ends.


The parable of the 10 virgins warns us of those who "slumbered and slept"

slumbered:
1) to nod in sleep, to sleep
1a) to be overcome or oppressed with sleep
1b) to fall asleep, drop off to sleep
2) to be negligent, careless
2a) of a thing i.e. to linger, delay

slept:
1) to fall asleep, drop off to sleep
2) to sleep
2a) to sleep normally
2b) euphemistically, to be dead

There is a big difference between those who dose off and those who are dead. If the foolish virgins woke up to their need earlier and sought the Character of Jesus, they would have found Him. "Seek and ye shall find." There is hope that the frozen chosen dozen will wake in time, but the dead won't wake in time. They will have to await the resurrection that comes after the marriage supper. That is how I read it. Do a complete word study and surprise yourself with some of the things that are hidden in this parable. The KJV is very inconsistent with its translation.

From Daniel's perspective, the foolish virgins are classed among the wicked. Daniel says that the wise will understand, but the wicked will not. If ever there was a chance that we were asleep, now is the acceptable time to check out our status.

The Laodicean message is one of recognized need vs needs that are not recognized in time to be met. Note that the parable of the 10 virgins is linked with Laodicea in this quote.


Quote:
Although the oil in the lamps is almost consumed, and they have not been replenished, still you have not yet reached that desperate position described in the parable of the foolish virgins. They slumbered long, until their lamps were gone out, and they had made no provision for the time of need; and when the Bridegroom came, they were seeking, too late, to replenish their lamps: for the door was shut, and they were left to outer darkness and despair. But the counsel of the True Witness is full of encouragement and comfort. The churches may yet obtain the gold of truth, faith, and love, and be rich in heavenly treasure. "Buy of me gold that thou mayest be rich, and white raiment that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear." The white raiment is the righteousness of Christ that may be wrought into the character. Purity of heart, purity of motive, will characterize every one who is washing his robe, and making it white in the blood of the Lamb. {RH, July 24, 1888 par. 3}


The message of the Investigative Judgment is get right with God NOW while Jesus in interceding in the Sanctuary. Do not wait until He leaves the sanctuary. So perhaps I have combined the three messages in my mind to come to the conclusion that the foolish virgins will not wake in time!

The king of the North (USA MICHAEL Pence is about to stand for his people) and many of us still don't know how prophecy is coming together.


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188459
02/09/19 04:59 PM
02/09/19 04:59 PM
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The Michael in Dan is Jesus, not Pence.


I am not worthy of the least of all the mercies, and of all the truth, which Thou hast shewed unto Thy servant;...
Gen 32:10
Re: The King of the North [Re: Theophilus] #188462
02/10/19 01:37 PM
02/10/19 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted By: Theophilus
The Michael in Dan is Jesus, not Pence.


Quote:
The last great delusion is soon to open before us. Antichrist is to perform his marvelous works in our sight. So closely will the counterfeit resemble the true, that it will be impossible to distinguish between them except by the Holy Scriptures. By their testimony every statement and every miracle must be tested. {GC88 593.1}



Notice the sequence:
Quote:
And at that time shall Michael [Pence] stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered [Michael, Christ], every one that shall be found written in the book. Daniel 12:1



Remember God named Cyrus by name a century before he toppled Babylon. Do not be surprised when you discover that He did it again when He named Michael Pence by name before Christ topples Babylon


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188465
02/10/19 07:53 PM
02/10/19 07:53 PM
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I would not only be surprised, I'd be shocked!
Notice that the term Thy people is being used--who is the one who stands for Israel? Michael-Christ. Jesus will be done with the cleansing of the sanctuary."And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of THY people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time THY. people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book." Christ stands for every one of HIS world wise.

Also, how you could think that Pence has anything to do with salvation of the people, I have no clue. He is an Evangelical--that's it. That does not make him godly. IMO, he is just as much of Babylon as the others.

I know the story about Cyrus. I think it has nothing to do with Pence.


I am not worthy of the least of all the mercies, and of all the truth, which Thou hast shewed unto Thy servant;...
Gen 32:10
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188468
02/12/19 03:03 PM
02/12/19 03:03 PM
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Was Cyrus a first name or last name?

Re: The King of the North [Re: kland] #188481
02/13/19 08:53 PM
02/13/19 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted By: kland
Was Cyrus a first name or last name?
Neither first nor last. The whole "first name/last name" thing didn't start till around 1066CE, so that question does not really apply.


"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
Re: The King of the North [Re: Theophilus] #188487
02/14/19 11:12 AM
02/14/19 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted By: Theophilus
I would not only be surprised, I'd be shocked!
Notice that the term Thy people is being used--who is the one who stands for Israel? Michael-Christ. Jesus will be done with the cleansing of the sanctuary."And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of THY people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time THY. people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book." Christ stands for every one of HIS world wise.

Also, how you could think that Pence has anything to do with salvation of the people, I have no clue. He is an Evangelical--that's it. That does not make him godly. IMO, he is just as much of Babylon as the others.

I know the story about Cyrus. I think it has nothing to do with Pence.


The question is not what we THINK, but what does the Bible say.

As I read it:
Trump gets us into a war with Iran
He gets impeached by a few (votes) people
Pence (Michael) stands for his people (Apostate Protestants)
He brings in the Mark of the Beast
The little time of trouble that we are in morphs
into the Time of Jacob's Trouble
Christ stands for His people

Just as King Cyrus was named by name Michael Pence is named by name
As Michael stand for His people, the counterfeit Michael stands for his people

The sad part of the story is that the 10 virgins will not all awake in time
The Laodiceans won't all see their need to repent and reform
And the coming of Christ will be as it was in the Days of Noah


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: The King of the North [Re: Nadi] #188489
02/14/19 11:33 AM
02/14/19 11:33 AM
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kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nadi
Originally Posted By: kland
Was Cyrus a first name or last name?
Neither first nor last. The whole "first name/last name" thing didn't start till around 1066CE, so that question does not really apply.
So how does one distinguish between so called Michael Pence being named in so prophecy vs. someone else, say Michael Jordon? (Pence is not currently a president, neither is someone else)

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188494
02/14/19 02:03 PM
02/14/19 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted By: henry hills
The question is not what we THINK, but what does the Bible say.
It is not what YOU THINK it says.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: The King of the North [Re: kland] #188498
02/15/19 03:02 PM
02/15/19 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Nadi
Originally Posted By: kland
Was Cyrus a first name or last name?
Neither first nor last. The whole "first name/last name" thing didn't start till around 1066CE, so that question does not really apply.
So how does one distinguish between so called Michael Pence being named in so prophecy vs. someone else, say Michael Jordon? (Pence is not currently a president, neither is someone else)


Studying the prophecies with a heart of a student rather than that of a Laodicean makes it easier for the Holy Spirit to work upon it.

The third angel's message tells that America will be the last power to persecute God's Church/people. Thus far my study has revealed that Michael pence will be the power that takes out Iran and turns against the covenant (God's covenant and the US Constitution).


He is not president yet. But he will be and when he is he will implement the Mark of the beast.


So the challenge is to study the word and confirm my reading or disprove it without any doubt. To discount it because it does not fit into your world view is antediluvian. They refused to believe Noah's message and they perished in their unbelief.


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: The King of the North [Re: APL] #188499
02/15/19 03:05 PM
02/15/19 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: henry hills
The question is not what we THINK, but what does the Bible say.
It is not what YOU THINK it says.


You have demonstrated your skepticism and unbelief and bashed the evidence that I presented, but the burden of disproving what you refuse t believe is on you. Give you Scriptural evidence and make your case to enlighten us to the Truth.


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188534
02/16/19 05:31 PM
02/16/19 05:31 PM
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OK and BTW, I have no clue who the "us" is you refer to. I am sure few share your belief. The Michael of Dan is also the Michael of Revelation.
How about Rev 12:7? Jude v 9? Dan 10:13-21
Are these also also Mike Pence?


I am not worthy of the least of all the mercies, and of all the truth, which Thou hast shewed unto Thy servant;...
Gen 32:10
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188537
02/16/19 06:35 PM
02/16/19 06:35 PM
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Excellent question, Theophilus!

"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels". Revelation 12:7

"Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses". Jude 1:9

"lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.". Daniel 10:13

So, Michael Pence (or is it Jordan?) lives in heaven and commands angels; contended with the devil over Moses; and, was in Persia over 500 years before the first coming of Christ?


"...I will not forget you.
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."

Isaiah 49:15-16
Re: The King of the North [Re: ProdigalOne] #188538
02/16/19 09:03 PM
02/16/19 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted By: ProdigalOne
Excellent question, Theophilus!
Though the question is relevant in relation to the foregoing assertions, the proposition leading to the question is so completely without support that I, for one, can not expend intellectual energy debating it.


"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
Re: The King of the North [Re: His child] #188544
02/19/19 04:32 AM
02/19/19 04:32 AM
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Originally Posted By: His child

Thus far my study has revealed that Michael pence will be the power that takes out Iran and turns against the covenant (God's covenant and the US Constitution).


I greatly admire your humility. You say, "Thus far, MY STUDY ..."

In this, you have demonstrated greater humility that the humblest of men.

///

Re: The King of the North [Re: Theophilus] #188546
02/19/19 03:28 PM
02/19/19 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted By: Theophilus
OK and BTW, I have no clue who the "us" is you refer to. I am sure few share your belief. The Michael of Dan is also the Michael of Revelation.
How about Rev 12:7? Jude v 9? Dan 10:13-21
Are these also also Mike Pence?

Yes, much more concise than I demonstrating by replacing Michael Jordan in everything His Child said at 02/15/19 07:02 AM. So I won't bother, as you made a very good point.

Re: The King of the North [Re: James Peterson] #188547
02/19/19 03:28 PM
02/19/19 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted By: James Peterson
Originally Posted By: His child

Thus far my study has revealed that Michael pence will be the power that takes out Iran and turns against the covenant (God's covenant and the US Constitution).


I greatly admire your humility. You say, "Thus far, MY STUDY ..."

In this, you have demonstrated greater humility that the humblest of men.

///
His Child for president!!!

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188607
02/27/19 03:40 PM
02/27/19 03:40 PM
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And not to forget U.S. Secretary of State, Michael R. Pompeo.

Re: The King of the North [Re: His child] #188613
02/28/19 04:52 AM
02/28/19 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted By: His child

As I read it:

Pence (Michael) stands for his people (Apostate Protestants)
He brings in the Mark of the Beast

Just as King Cyrus was named by name Michael Pence is named by name
As Michael stand for His people, the counterfeit Michael stands for his people
I am not sure which Bible version you are using and that you have seen Pence's name in; but I cant find his name anywhere in my Bible, and I have over 30 different versions.

Nowhere in scripture are we told that any single man could "bring in the mark of the beast." It doesnt work that way. It wont work that way. "The mark" is not something that any human can bring about by human effort. "The mark" cannot be forced on anyone; scripture is clear that "the mark" will be willingly "received" and as such, no one can force it upon us. We can receive something, or we can take something. Theres a big difference. The Bible states the mark will be "received."
Quote:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Rev 14:11)
Mike Pence does not meet the description:
Quote:
There is one pointed out in prophecy as the man of sin. He is the representative of Satan. Taking the suggestions of Satan concerning the law of God, which is as unchangeable as His throne, this man of sin comes in and represents to the world that he has changed that law, and that the first day of the week instead of the seventh is now the Sabbath. Professing infallibility, he claims the right to change the law of God to suit his own purposes. By so doing, he exalts himself above God, and leaves the world to infer that God is fallible. If it were indeed true that God had made a rule of government that needed to be changed, it would certainly show fallibility. {7BC 910.3}


"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance."

"There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8)
https://www.lightintheclouds.net/word

Sincerely, IN Christ; and THROUGH The Spirit


- The Wanderer
Re: The King of the North [Re: Theophilus] #188682
03/11/19 02:17 PM
03/11/19 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted By: Theophilus
OK and BTW, I have no clue who the "us" is you refer to. I am sure few share your belief. The Michael of Dan is also the Michael of Revelation.
How about Rev 12:7? Jude v 9? Dan 10:13-21
Are these also also Mike Pence?


I am not disagreeing with you traditional view, but it is not the complete meaning.

For every truth of God, Satan has a counterfeit.

Some examples that pop out:

Sabbath / Sunday
Trinity / 3 spirits of frogs
death / you won't die (eternal burning hell)

examine Daniel 12:1

And at that time <06256> shall Michael <04317> stand up <05975> (8799), the great <01419> prince <08269> which standeth <05975> (8802) for the children <01121> of thy people <05971>: and there shall be <01961> (8738) a time <06256> of trouble <06869>, such as never was since there was a nation <01471> even to that same time <06256>: and at that time <06256> thy people <05971> shall be delivered <04422> (8735), every one that shall be found <04672> (8737) written <03789> (8803) in the book <05612>.

Notice how the translators supplemented the text? Was that because they thought Daniel was writing about Michael? If the translators had known that Daniel was writing about Michael as Isaiah had been writing about Cyrus, would they have supplemented the text as they did?

Take out the fluff added by the translators and Look at the sequencing:

1) At that time Michael stands, the mighty prince stands for the children of his people:

2) and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:

3) At that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

The counterfeit Michael stands
The time of Trouble follows
The real Michael delivers His people.


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: The King of the North [Re: kland] #188683
03/11/19 02:22 PM
03/11/19 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted By: kland
And not to forget U.S. Secretary of State, Michael R. Pompeo.

Are you proposing that Michaels shall stand?
Like Michael Pompeo and Michael Pence in opposition to Michael (Christ)?


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188684
03/11/19 02:41 PM
03/11/19 02:41 PM
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Wanderer,

I finally came across your comment.

you might consider this EGW quote as well.


Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Through the great powers controlled by paganism and the papacy, symbolized by the dragon and the leopard-like beast, Satan for many centuries destroyed God's faithful witnesses. Under the dominion of Rome, they were tortured and slain for more than a thousand years; but the papacy was at last deprived of its strength, and forced to desist from persecution. [Revelation 13:3, 10.] At that time the prophet beheld a new power coming up, represented by the beast with lamb-like horns. The appearance of this beast and the manner of its rise seem to indicate that the power which it represents is unlike those brought to view under the preceding symbols. The great kingdoms that have ruled the world obtained their dominion by conquest and revolution, and they were presented to the prophet Daniel as beasts of prey, rising when the "four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea." [Daniel 7:2.] But the beast with horns like a lamb is seen "coming up out of the earth;" [Revelation 13:11.] signifying that instead of overthrowing other powers to establish itself, the nation thus represented arose in territory previously unoccupied, and grew up gradually and peacefully. {4SP 276.2}


Originally Posted By: Ellen White
This power, the last that is to wage war against the church and the law of God, was symbolized by a beast with lamblike horns. The beasts preceding it had risen from the sea, but this came up out of the earth, representing the peaceful rise of the nation which is symbolized. The "two horns like a lamb" well represent the character of the United States Government…Republicanism and Protestantism. {ST, November 1, 1899 par. 4}


The President of the USA has been trying to rule by decree for some time now. He makes a presidential executive order and it is the law of the land unless overturned by Congress or the courts.

Too much thinking inside the box is limiting.


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: The King of the North [Re: His child] #188696
03/12/19 03:12 PM
03/12/19 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted By: His child
Originally Posted By: kland
And not to forget U.S. Secretary of State, Michael R. Pompeo.

Are you proposing that Michaels shall stand?
Like Michael Pompeo and Michael Pence in opposition to Michael (Christ)?
And there was another Michael something I read in the news. I think last name starting with "P". Do you think there's going to be a whole bunch of Michaels standing together, forming an alliance?

Re: The King of the North [Re: kland] #188702
03/13/19 12:35 AM
03/13/19 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted By: kland
And there was another Michael something I read in the news. I think last name starting with "P". Do you think there's going to be a whole bunch of Michaels standing together, forming an alliance?


In My reading of Revelation 13, the 42 months were fulfilled in the endtime as 42 & 2 months, thus the 2 lamblike horns will be fulfilled as 2 & 2 horns. Three of the 2 & 2 (Bush II, Obama, Trump) have come … 2 down with one hanging on by a prayer (and Michael Pence standing by for his time to act waiting in the wings). All the while, Nancy is saying "I don't want to impeach the President" (She is really saying, I don't want to put Michael Pence in the Whitehouse with the incumbent advantage in 2020.) So if you do as Jesus advised "Watch" you will be surprised when events work themselves out.

In Conjunction with Daniel 12:1, logically the last horn of the 2 & 2 on the image beast will be Michael Pence. He is the power that is explained in Daniel 11:30 and beyond.


That is how I understand it at this time. When it happens, events will move quickly. And Judgment will begin at the house of God.


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188703
03/13/19 12:43 AM
03/13/19 12:43 AM
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Guessing again.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: The King of the North [Re: His child] #188706
03/13/19 02:08 PM
03/13/19 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted By: His child

In Conjunction with Daniel 12:1, logically the last horn of the 2 & 2 on the image beast will be Michael Pence. He is the power that is explained in Daniel 11:30 and beyond.
But how does Michael R. Pompeo fit into all this? Shouldn't there be 2 & 2 Michaels?

Re: The King of the North [Re: kland] #188708
03/14/19 11:47 AM
03/14/19 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: His child

In Conjunction with Daniel 12:1, logically the last horn of the 2 & 2 on the image beast will be Michael Pence. He is the power that is explained in Daniel 11:30 and beyond.
But how does Michael R. Pompeo fit into all this? Shouldn't there be 2 & 2 Michaels?


There are only 2 Michaels identified in Daniel 12:1. The word duo does not appear in this context indicating 2 & 2 Michaels. The duo in Revelation 13 was fulfilled as 42 & 2 months allotted to Pope John-Paul II and thus 2 & 2 applies to the duo horns on the beast with the lamblike horns.

Michael Pence, America's prince of the Protestant Covenant, who will set up the Mark of the Beast after America's economy crashes. He is the counterfeit Michael.

And Michael, Christ whos stands for His people after the Mark of the beast is set up.

Last edited by His child; 03/14/19 11:52 AM.

"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: The King of the North [Re: APL] #188709
03/14/19 11:54 AM
03/14/19 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted By: APL
Guessing again.


Sounds like what some skeptics said to the Adventists in 1844 after they got 1843 wrong.


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188714
03/14/19 02:24 PM
03/14/19 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted By: henry hills
Sounds like what some skeptics said to the Adventists in 1844 after they got 1843 wrong.
Henry - your prophetic foot is too small. It all appears to be a powerful imagination, all about your tweets, you findings.

I'll look to Jesus.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: The King of the North [Re: His child] #188717
03/14/19 08:29 PM
03/14/19 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted By: His child

There are only 2 Michaels identified in Daniel 12:1. The word duo does not appear in this context indicating 2 & 2 Michaels. The duo in Revelation 13 was fulfilled as 42 & 2 months allotted to Pope John-Paul II and thus 2 & 2 applies to the duo horns on the beast with the lamblike horns.
But why should you double duo? Duo stands for two, not four. It says, 40 and duo months, not 42 and duo months. Otherwise, why not double 40 and get 80. Wouldn't that be interesting?

Re: The King of the North [Re: His child] #188721
03/14/19 11:07 PM
03/14/19 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted By: His child

There are only 2 Michaels identified in Daniel 12:1.
There is only ONE Michael in Dan 12:1. Which version are you using my friend?

The hope of resurrection, of the life beyond the darkness of their times, animated the hearts of the Chosen People. In the same way the Apostle Paul refers to it, 1 Cor 15:58. The national resurrection of Israel is without doubt included but the resurrection at the last, when that of the just shall precede that of the unjust by the millennium, is clearly the topic of these wonderful words in Dan 12:1. Daniel’s prophecies were to be sealed, because their entire fulfillment was not to take place for "many days."

A definite time is specified in this verse, but not a particular year or month or day, but a time made definite by the occurrence of a certain event with which it is connected.

"At that time." What time?--The time to which we are brought by the closing verse of the preceding chapter--the time when the king of the north shall plant the tabernacles of his palace in the glorious holy mountain. When this event takes place, he is to come to his end; and then, according to this verse, we look for the standing up of Michael, the great Prince.

The name "Pence" is not mentioned anywhere in Scripture.

"Michael," whatever one says He is, is depicted as "standing up," in this Scripture. What is his standing up?

Michael is called the "archangel" in Jude 1:9. This means the chief angel, or the head over the angels. There is but one. Who is he?--He is the one whose voice is heard from heaven when the dead are raised. (1 Thes 4:16.) Whose voice is heard in connection with that event?--The voice of our Lord Jesus Christ. (John 5:28.) Tracing back the evidence with this fact as a basis, we reach the following conclusion: The voice of the Son of God is the voice of the Archangel; the Archangel, then, must be the Son of God. But the Archangel is called Michael; hence Michael must be the name given to the Son of God. The expression in verse 1, "the great Prince which standeth for the children of thy people," is sufficient alone to identify the one here spoken of as the Saviour of men. He is the "Prince of life," and "a Prince and a Saviour." Acts 3:15; Acts 5:31. He is the great Prince.

Jesus is the only One capable of deliverance at such a time as this. (in Dan 12:1). No US President is needed or mentioned for this Bible prophecy.

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great Prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book." (Dan 12:1)

Last edited by The Wanderer; 03/14/19 11:08 PM.

"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance."

"There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8)
https://www.lightintheclouds.net/word

Sincerely, IN Christ; and THROUGH The Spirit


- The Wanderer
Re: The King of the North [Re: APL] #188729
03/15/19 12:09 PM
03/15/19 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: henry hills
Sounds like what some skeptics said to the Adventists in 1844 after they got 1843 wrong.
Henry - your prophetic foot is too small. It all appears to be a powerful imagination, all about your tweets, you findings.

I'll look to Jesus.



APL,


If that is how you choose to frame those things that the LORD has been pleased to allow me to understand, so be it.


But the historical record tells of a group of people that are in the Sanctuary worshiping at the throne of Christ. He rises and moves into the Most Holy place. Some follow Him there and others stay in the Holy place and continue to worship a being that assumes the seat that Christ has left.

Those that followed the light stayed close to Christ. Those that refused to move when the light moved, were in darkness while they thought that they were being blessed by God.

There are those in Laodicea that think that they are rich since they have the Bible, the Spirit of prophecy, the Sabbath, and a correct understanding of the love of God so much so that they have need of nothing and they will not hear Christ's warning that they are poor, miserable, wretched, blind and naked.

So as you follow Jesus, be sure that you are following Jesus and not being self-satisfied with a presumption that will not stand the test that is soon to divide those that follow Christ from those that assume that they are standing for Him and with HIm.


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: The King of the North [Re: kland] #188730
03/15/19 01:22 PM
03/15/19 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted By: kland
But why should you double duo? Duo stands for two, not four. It says, 40 and duo months, not 42 and duo months. Otherwise, why not double 40 and get 80. Wouldn't that be interesting?


That is a great question.

When I understood that EGW identified Pope Pius VI as the one that received the deadly wound, I understood that a pope was a head on the papal beast of Revelation 13. Pope John-Paul II was the head that is (cf Revelation 17) and that was wounded and received the healing of his deadly wound.

From Daniel 7:17 I had learned that the 4 sea beasts were foreshadowing the 4 earth kings that heaven was explaining. Thus I learned that Reagan, Bush I, Clinton were the lion, bear, and leopard in the endtime. Those are the features that Revelation 13 has bonding with the head that was healed (John-Paul II). And the season and time of Daniel 7:11-12 align with 91 years. Reagan was in his 91st year when the tragedy of 9/11/01 struck.

From 9/11/01 to 4/2/05 (the day pope John-Paul II died) there were 42 full months. Oct, Nov, Dec 2001 (3); 12 each in 2002, 2003, 2004 (36); and Jan, Feb, Mar 2005 (3) = 42 full months. But there was some time remaining that had not been accounted for (19 days in September 2001 and 2 days in April 2005= 21 days left over after the 42 months).

The Bible writers used the Hebrew calendar. when the Hebrew calendar is compared to 9/11/01 to 4/2/05, it is exactly 42 & 2 months to the very day. So if the Bible is saying 42 months, why was the prophecy fulfilled in 42 & 2 months? Look at the words in the prophecy.

40 is 40 every time that it is used in the Bible. But 2 (duo) is two, twice, both, etc. But in Luke 10:1 duo is expanded.

Quote:
<1161> After <3326> these things <5023> the Lord <2962> appointed <322> (5656) other <2087> seventy <1440> also <2532>, and <2532> sent <649> (5656) them <846> two <303> and two <1417> before <4253> his <846> face <4383> into <1519> every <3956> city <4172> and <2532> place <5117>, whither <3757> (5625) <3739> he himself <846> would <3195> (5707) come <2064> (5738). Luke 10:1


303 is ana that means by and 1417 is duo that means two.
Jesus sent them by twos.

Quote:
And after these things, the Lord appointed seventy two[a] others, and sent them out ahead of His presence two by two, to every city and place where He Himself was going to go. Luke 10:1 Disciples’ Literal New Testament


Quote:
Later on the Lord commissioned seventy other disciples and sent them off in twos as advance-parties into every town and district where he intended to go. J.B. Phillips New Testament


Duo is 2 by [ana] 2, 2 and [ana] 2, by [ana] twos. The ana is by or and. But the duo is 2 twice in Luke 10:1 and that fits the prophecy about Pope John-Paul II perfectly. He died 42 & 2 months to the day on the Hebrew calendar from 9/11/01 to 4/2/05.

Originally Posted By: EGW
The prophecies of Daniel and of John are to be understood. They interpret each other. They give to the world truths which every one should understand. These prophecies are to be witness in the world. By their fulfilment in these last days, they will explain themselves. {KC 105.2}


The fulfilment of the 42 months in Revelation 13:5 as 42 & 2 explains how duo is to be interpreted in 13:11

Quote:
And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two [2 & 2] horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.


Those horns are Presidents: Bush II, Obama, Trump, AND Pence.

While I was still learning, I counted duo as 2 and could only follow Revelation 13 to President Obama. Thus, I saw him as horn 2 and Trump as a fluke that I could not understand unless he was to be in office for less than a year. Now it is clear that the prophecy is explaining itself and that knowledge has increased.

That is the way I read it and I am studying with prayer and seeking fact checkers to be sure that the facts are right.

That is the only reason that I have remained on this group so long. Though the feedback is generally negative and skeptical, some great question pop up from time to time that make me reexamine the studies and look at things that I might have missed. And Daryl is not one that tries to stifle discussion, but one that lets the conversation examine the facets that arise knowing that truth will prevail.
We have God's word on it:

Quote:
And ye shall seek me, and find [me], when ye shall search for me with all your heart.(Jeremiah 29:13)


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: The King of the North [Re: The Wanderer] #188731
03/15/19 01:35 PM
03/15/19 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted By: The Wanderer
"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great Prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book." (Dan 12:1)


If The translators wrote their understanding into the text, you might need to double check their rendition.

Quote:
Some look to us gravely and say, "Don't you think there might have been some mistake in the copyist or in the translators?" This is all probable, and the mind that is so narrow that it will hesitate and stumble over this possibility or probability would be just as ready to stumble over the mysteries of the Inspired Word, because their feeble minds cannot see through the purposes of God. Yes, they would just as easily stumble over plain facts that the common mind will accept, and discern the Divine, and to which God's utterance is plain and beautiful, full of marrow and fatness. All the mistakes will not cause trouble to one soul, or cause any feet to stumble, that would not manufacture difficulties from the plainest revealed truth. {1SM 16.2}


Go with the translators until there is a reason to double check them. example:

Quote:
Then I saw in relation to the "daily" (Daniel 8:12) that the word "sacrifice" was supplied by man's wisdom, and does not belong to the text, and that the Lord gave the correct view of it to those who gave the judgment hour cry. {EW 74.2}


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188736
03/15/19 02:53 PM
03/15/19 02:53 PM
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Quote:
The Bible writers used the Hebrew calendar. when the Hebrew calendar is compared to 9/11/01 to 4/2/05, it is exactly 42 & 2 months to the very day. So if the Bible is saying 42 months, why was the prophecy fulfilled in 42 & 2 months? Look at the words in the prophecy.
Ahh. I get it. We add two because your self-inspired prophecy was lacking of two. There is no rule here to apply to any other thing other than to ask Henry whether something fits or not. So if Pence doesn't fulfill your expectations, we can add two more Michaels.


Quote:
303 is ana that means by and 1417 is duo that means two.
Jesus sent them by twos.
But that does not mean anything should be doubled. Just that they were sent out in pairs. They weren't sent out by fours. We don't double the number. Just because one place has two by two, doesn't mean every place that has one two needs to be doubled. Improper logic, improper Bible study.

Re: The King of the North [Re: The Wanderer] #188737
03/15/19 02:54 PM
03/15/19 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted By: The Wanderer

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great Prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book." (Dan 12:1)
Ohhh! The great Prince, not the great Pence.

Re: The King of the North [Re: kland] #188739
03/16/19 12:40 AM
03/16/19 12:40 AM
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Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: The Wanderer

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great Prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book." (Dan 12:1)
Ohhh! The great Prince, not the great Pence.
smile Yes. We have to go with whats in the text.


"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance."

"There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8)
https://www.lightintheclouds.net/word

Sincerely, IN Christ; and THROUGH The Spirit


- The Wanderer
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188741
03/16/19 01:13 AM
03/16/19 01:13 AM
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Quote:
Prophets had wept over the apostasy of Israel. Jeremiah wished that his eyes were a fountain of tears, that he might "weep day and night for the slain of the daughter of his people." What, then, was the grief of Him whose prophetic glance took in, not years, but ages? He beholds the destroying angel hovering over the ancient metropolis of patriarchs and prophets. From the ridge of Olivet, the very spot afterward occupied by Titus and his army, he looks across the valley upon the sacred courts and porticoes, and with tear-blinded eyes he sees, in awful perspective, the walls surrounded by alien armies. He hears the tread of the hosts mustering for battle. He hears the voice of mothers and children crying for bread in the besieged city. He sees her holy and beautiful house, her palaces and towers, given to the flames, and where once they stood, only a heap of smoldering ruins. {4SP 20.3}


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188859
03/23/19 01:51 AM
03/23/19 01:51 AM
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It could be that Pence could be pres, if something happens to Trump, but that is not enough to hang a hat on.

Just like your March 4th thing.As much as you tried to spin it, it was nothing. You finally said God blessed you March 4 to cover up your flub ."You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?” If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him."Deut. 18:21-22
I don't believe Daniel is speaking about 2 Michaels, and I don't hold out that anyone will be able to convince you that you are incorrect. So whatever on that one. This is what I think is just weird
"303 is ana that means by and 1417 is duo that means two.
Jesus sent them by twos" This is out there. You might want to slow down a bit. Do you tell your fellow churchmembers this stuf? I am super curious as to how you are responded to by your church. Do you hear voices from god? How does he talk to you.


I am not worthy of the least of all the mercies, and of all the truth, which Thou hast shewed unto Thy servant;...
Gen 32:10
Re: The King of the North [Re: Theophilus] #188878
03/24/19 11:31 AM
03/24/19 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted By: Theophilus
It could be that Pence could be pres, if something happens to Trump, but that is not enough to hang a hat on.

Just like your March 4th thing.As much as you tried to spin it, it was nothing. You finally said God blessed you March 4 to cover up your flub ."You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?” If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him."Deut. 18:21-22
I don't believe Daniel is speaking about 2 Michaels, and I don't hold out that anyone will be able to convince you that you are incorrect. So whatever on that one. This is what I think is just weird
"303 is ana that means by and 1417 is duo that means two.
Jesus sent them by twos" This is out there. You might want to slow down a bit. Do you tell your fellow churchmembers this stuf? I am super curious as to how you are responded to by your church. Do you hear voices from god? How does he talk to you.


Theophilus,
Wasn't 4 March 2019 the day that Pope Francis I told the "faithful" to get involved in politics in Latin America to bring those governments back to his fold? If your opinion on one Michael in Daniel is correct, no problem. If I am right, you have several problems that you won't even suspect until it may be too late to do anything about them. That is why warnings are given beforehand to give folks time to double check the facts, before it is too late to make needed changes.

Those who study grow in grace. Those who don't look at the facts are clueless.

Of the 10 books that I have written (I lost count) I share my studies with all who will read them. Some Books that are 400 pages or more taking Daniel verse by verse, chapter by chapter. Only to realize that it was over kill for most folks. Too much information. Dumbing it down with less information and putting forth interesting highlights, only to discover that by leaving out some of the facts, some folks look at it like it is speculation.

Getting criticized for putting in complete quotes from SOP. The point is lost because of mammoth amount of SOP material. Then criticized for only putting in the exact SOP sentence that applies. "Anybody can take a sentence out of context and make the SOP say what they want."

In my local congregation, I do find some folks who read the books and give feedback that is very helpful. "This was not clear." "Did you mean to say this...?" Oh, is that how it came across? What I was saying was... "Ah..." "Your last book was great. You left out the fluff and made it clear." Unfortunately, I found some important facts that got chopped that should not have been left out.

Being human has its limitations.

This quarter's lesson was a great opportunity to discuss Revelation in my Sabbath School Class and to point out some things that the lesson glossed over that should have had more consideration. Some traditional nonsense that found its way into the lesson that was harmful to our understanding was challenged. Time will tell.

The SOP states that Daniel and Revelation will explain themselves by their fulfillment. it has happened. Pope John-Paul II fulfilled the 42 months as 42 plus 2 on the Hebrew Calendar. So to have duo as 2 plus 2 the next time it occurs in Revelation 13 is applying what has already been learned in the prophetic study (that is also confirmed in Luke 10:1).

The problem: share what I learn as I learn it or remain silent until Michael Pence implements the Mark of the Beast or until Jesus comes. What good is Bible prophecy if it does not do its intended job... to alert us of the coming danger? Heed the warning and prepare. Or brush it aside and find out later if it was the right warning for the right time when it is too late to heed it.

God always sends a warning before He dispenses judgment. Some folks benefit from the message, while others do not. Learning that the Judgment Hour of the dead was from 22 October 1844 to 22 February 1928 and the Judgment Hour of the Living was from 14 October 1929 to 14 February 2013 was a blessing to the waiting saints and an irritation to those who prefer to wait and see like the foolish virgins, who do not buy their oil in time. IF only I could give them some of my oil, but they will need to go to the Merchant and get their own supply.

That's the way it is.


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188890
03/25/19 12:14 AM
03/25/19 12:14 AM
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"Learning that the Judgment Hour of the dead was from 22 October 1844 to 22 February 1928 and the Judgment Hour of the Living was from 14 October 1929 to 14 February 2013 was a blessing to the waiting saints and an irritation to those who prefer to wait and see like the foolish virgins, who do not buy their oil in time. IF only I could give them some of my oil, but they will need to go to the Merchant and get their own supply."

That Harold Campbell dude was always posting time prophecies too. He recanted before he died because they hadn't come to pass. How do you know the judgement was ended in 2013? Oh boy. Who are the waiting saints that benefitted?
God has given us plenty of prophecy already. You come up with namby pamby stuff. Oil is supplied by the Holy Spirit, not you. I don't want your oil.
I am sure Benny Hinn has written books too. So what?

You just keep on thinking you're special and endowed with some sort of divine light.

Last edited by Theophilus; 03/25/19 01:39 AM.

I am not worthy of the least of all the mercies, and of all the truth, which Thou hast shewed unto Thy servant;...
Gen 32:10
Re: The King of the North [Re: Theophilus] #188903
03/26/19 09:59 AM
03/26/19 09:59 AM
His child  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Theophilus


"Learning that the Judgment Hour of the dead was from 22 October 1844 to 22 February 1928 and the Judgment Hour of the Living was from 14 October 1929 to 14 February 2013 was a blessing to the waiting saints and an irritation to those who prefer to wait and see like the foolish virgins, who do not buy their oil in time. IF only I could give them some of my oil, but they will need to go to the Merchant and get their own supply."

That Harold Campbell dude was always posting time prophecies too. He recanted before he died because they hadn't come to pass. How do you know the judgement was ended in 2013? Oh boy. Who are the waiting saints that benefitted?
God has given us plenty of prophecy already. You come up with namby pamby stuff. Oil is supplied by the Holy Spirit, not you. I don't want your oil.
I am sure Benny Hinn has written books too. So what?

You just keep on thinking you're special and endowed with some sort of divine light.


Perhaps you will have the opportunity to recant before you die too?


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: The King of the North [Re: His child] #188924
03/28/19 02:45 PM
03/28/19 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted By: His child
Theophilus,
Wasn't 4 March 2019 the day that Pope Francis I told the "faithful" to get involved in politics in Latin America to bring those governments back to his fold? If your opinion on one Michael in Daniel is correct, no problem. If I am right, you have several problems that you won't even suspect until it may be too late to do anything about them. That is why warnings are given beforehand to give folks time to double check the facts, before it is too late to make needed changes.
Daniel 12:1 does not have the Greek word, duo.
No duo Michaels.

There are no Michaels in Rev 13.

Re: The King of the North [Re: kland] #188926
03/28/19 05:28 PM
03/28/19 05:28 PM
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You have to read it twice.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: The King of the North [Re: kland] #188929
03/30/19 12:38 AM
03/30/19 12:38 AM
His child  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: His child
Theophilus,
Wasn't 4 March 2019 the day that Pope Francis I told the "faithful" to get involved in politics in Latin America to bring those governments back to his fold? If your opinion on one Michael in Daniel is correct, no problem. If I am right, you have several problems that you won't even suspect until it may be too late to do anything about them. That is why warnings are given beforehand to give folks time to double check the facts, before it is too late to make needed changes.
Daniel 12:1 does not have the Greek word, duo.
No duo Michaels.

There are no Michaels in Rev 13.


Sequence?

1) And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince [which standeth for the children of thy people...heavily supplemented by KJV translators]

2) and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time:

3) and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Daniel 12: in conjunction with Revelation 13 paints a complete picture

With only one horn remaining to be identified in Rev 13 post Trump, I read that it is Michael Pence.


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: The King of the North [Re: APL] #188930
03/30/19 12:40 AM
03/30/19 12:40 AM
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Originally Posted By: APL
You have to read it twice.


I'm getting slow. I had to read this twice lol


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: The King of the North [Re: Charity] #189424
05/18/19 01:18 PM
05/18/19 01:18 PM
Rick H  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Charity
Originally Posted By: Rick H
This vision begins with a reference to Cyrus and ends with God’s people delivered. Like the other chapters in Daniel it is not just past history but covers from his time to the end of the world.

So, from the 50's to today the church has mostly reverted back to the White view (James). Tim Roosenburg's view is similar to James White but he says the King of the North is the combined forces of Christianity, Catholic and Protestant and that the King of the South is radical Islam. That's a better fit with scripture imo. What are your thoughts?
If it takes away from showing the same power of antichrist as the other chapters, then it becomes a issue.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #194931
08/13/22 07:15 PM
08/13/22 07:15 PM
Rick H  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Rick H
Originally Posted by Charity
Thanks for this Rick. Interesting ideas some of them. I'll look into it some more.

In the mean time here's a quote from Ellen White that if Ford and others had taken to heart they would have put the primary fulfillment of Daniel 11:30 - 45 in the future:
Quote
The prophecy in the eleventh of Daniel has nearly reached its complete fulfillment. Much of the history that has taken place in fulfillment of this prophecy will be repeated. In the thirtieth verse a power is spoken of that “shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.” [Verses 31-36, quoted.] {13MR 394.1}
She wrote that over a hundred years ago and it is still yet to be fulfilled. If Gates is right, we're on the cusp of it now.


As James White told Uriah Smith, "caution" especially with David Gates. Now I found more history on the Adventist view, very interesting:

"History of the Churchs Teaching on the King of the North.

Three Main Periods

1. 1846-1871 The King of the North said to be the Papacy.

There was general agreement on this during this time. James White and Uriah Smith both taught it. Uriah Smith applied Daniel 11:45 to the Papacy. See his editorial in the Review and Herald May 13, 1862 under the title, 'Will the Pope Remove the Papal seat to Jerusalem?'

2. 1871-1952. The King of the North said to be Turkey.

Around the beginning of this period Uriah Smith changed his views and began to teach that Daniel 11:36-39 Spoke about Revolutionary France, and that verses 40-45

dealt with Turkey. He wrote up these views in his book 'Thoughts on Daniel and the Revelation', published by the Review and Herald Publishing House of which he was the editor on and off for many years.

James White who was also editor of the Publishing House at times advised caution.

In 1877 war broke out between Turkey and Russia, and Smith preached on the 'Eastern Question' at a camp meeting attended by the Whites, and there the two men

clashed publicly over the issue. In November 15, 1877 an editorial by James White appeared. It was reprinted in the Review and Herald 27 November, 1877, urging caution. Uriah Smith did not heed James Whites appeal, and in the Review and Herald of June 6, 1878 (page 180) he wrote. 'we have reached the preliminary movements of the battle of Armageddon'. See Ministry Magazine November 1967, page29 and onwards.

Reasons why Uriah Smith changed his views. See Ministry Magazine, March 1954
1. In 1798 the Pope was taken prisoner by the French general Berthier, and he died in exile in France. In 1870 the Pope lost all temporal power, after Garibaldi took away the Papal States and united Italy.
2.Secular opinion held that the Papacy would never recover. It seems strange to us now that Smith would go along with this idea since Rev. 13:3 says 'the deadly wound was healed and all the world wondered after the beast'.
3.Introducing France, Turkey and Egypt into Daniel 11, made the prophecies seem to be current to people of those times, and thus more interesting and urgent. Smith did what so many others have done, and that is to try to interpret the prophecies by looking at the newspaper headlines of the day. The danger of doing this is that he forgot that prophecy was not given to us to make us wise about political event, but to let us know what is going to happen to Gods church.
4.At that time Russia seemed ready to close in on Constantinople (now called Istanbul), Smith thought that this move could well lead Turkey to move its capital to Jerusalem.
5.Bishop Newton and Adam Clarke and others had linked Daniel 11:40-45 to the Ottoman Empire.
6.Many scholars of the day also taught that Rev. 9 spoke about the Ottoman Empire and that Rev. 11 dealt with the French Revolution. Thus it was thought that these two chapters were parallel prophecies to those in Dan. 11:36-45.



Reasons why Smiths views became dominate.

a. James White withdrew from the controversy for the sake of peace. See Ministry Magazine Nov. 1967, and Counsels to Writers and Editors,pp.76-77.

b. White did not spell out his views as clearly as did Smith.

c. Smith wrote his views into a book, 'Thoughts on Daniel and Revelation,' which out-lasted any thing White wrote in a magazine.

d. White died in 1881, while Smith served as editor of the Review and Herald for another eight years after Whites death. Thus Smiths views became the dominate interpretation until about 1952.

3. 1952 to the Present. The King of the North again said to be the Papacy.

Reasons for the Return to the Earlier Position. See Ministry Magazine March 1954, p 24.

'Not until the events so confidently predicted did not materialize, and the Papacy, instead of having '?fallen to rise no more,' again became a decisive influence in international affairs with a resumption of temporal power in 1929, did our Bible students undertake a re-examination of our denominational interpretations of these prophecies (Note that this quotation is dealing specifically with Dan. 11:36-39, but that which it states is also true about the King of the North as being the Papacy.)


See Ministry Magazine 1967 p 26. 'The Papacy is generally held to be the King of the North, and Armageddon is understood to be primarily the climatic struggle between the forces of Christ and those of Satan at the end of time. The years between 1924 and 1952 were transition years.'.....http://bereanbiblecorner.com/2014/03/05/the-king-of-the-north/


This is interesting, a complete explanation of the Adventist positions on Daniel 11...

"The three basic Adventist interpretations of the book of Daniel 11 are discussed below.

The Turkey and Egypt Position

The first view holds fairly closely to what Uriah Smith wrote in his 1884 book, Daniel and the Revelation and defends a strong literal interpretation throughout the entire chapter.

The King of the North in verses 40-45 is interpreted as being Turkey, either as the Ottoman Empire in its conflict in 1798 AD with Napoleonic France and the breakaway rulers of Egypt (verses 40-44), or as a last-days reincarnation of the Caliphate; and the King of the South in verses 40-45 represents Egypt.

Uriah Smith?s interpretation argues that all the verses up to and including verse 44 have already been fulfilled. The modern exponents of this position argue that verse 45 is to be interpreted as Turkey, leading a re-established Caliphate, which will establish a newly restored Caliphate in Jerusalem, after which this power meets its end, leading to the final time of trouble of Daniel 12:1.

This position has many adherents because (1) it appears to use a consistently literal hermeneutic (principle of interpretation) throughout the chapter, that is to say, the King of the North is always a literal, earthly power situated/based to the north of Jerusalem, and the King of the South is always a literal, earthly power situated/based to the south of Jerusalem; and (2) Ellen White appears to provide strong support for the views contained in Uriah Smith?s preaching on the ?Eastern Question? and the contents of his chapter on Daniel 11 in his book.

It should be noted that some recent Adventist commentators cast doubt on the extent of White?s support for this interpretation.

The Papacy and Atheism Position

The second position takes the latter half of the chapter symbolically, arguing that the papacy is represented in its persecuting phase during the 1,260 years of papal supremacy.

This position agrees with the first position of a literal/historical interpretive framework for verses 1-22, down to the death of Jesus Christ on Calvary, but argues that after Calvary, the New Testament (NT) consistently applies a more spiritualized interpretation of Old Testament (OT) literal actors.

For instance, historical Babylon in Daniel becomes spiritual Babylon in Revelation; ethnic Israel through the OT era to the end of the 490-year prophecy of Daniel becomes spiritual Israel in NT times; and so on.

Thus, although this position identifies historical actors from verse 23 onward, these historical actors are no longer considered to represent the literal earthly powers to the north and south of Jerusalem, but rather they represent spiritual powers that are manifest in earthly realities, such as, for instance, the papacy as the King of the North. Verses 36-39 represent the full flowering of the blasphemous and persecuting papal power before 1798 AD.

In verses 40-45, the papacy remains as the King of the North and atheism as the King of the South. This position parallels the identification of the atheist French Revolution in Revelation 11, and Revolutionary France being the power that overthrew the papacy in 1798 AD. This view came into vogue from the 1940s onward, after the writings of Louis Were, and is driven by two main factors: (1) literary parallels between the little-horn papal power of Daniel 7 and 8 and the King of the North from verse 36 onward; and (2) seeking to correlate the eschatology of Revelation 12-14 and 2 Thessalonians, with the actors mentioned in Daniel 11.

This view is probably the most commonly held view in the Adventist Church today.

The Papacy and Islam Position

The third (and most recent) position among Adventists reads Daniel 11 as the third, basically literal interpretation of the symbolic vision in 8:1-14, after the interpretations in 8:17-26 and 9:24-27.

Daniel 11:2-21 profile a sequence of historical events after the time of Daniel that affects his Jewish people and comprise background to the Messiah?s coming. Verse 22 predicts the death of Christ under imperial Rome at the heart of the chapter. Verses 23-30 trace the rise of the religio-political church of Rome and its political-military exploits, including the Crusades and later campaigns against Islamic power, in which Catholic forces coming to the land of Israel from the north and Muslim armies coming to it from the south sought to control it (verses 25-30).

Then verses 31-39 flesh out the predictions in Daniel 7 and 8 concerning the papacy?s unique and astonishing religious pretensions and vicious persecutions (verses 31-39; see also 2 Thessalonians 2). In verses 40-43, the papacy and its allies (?Babylon? in Revelation) finally triumph over Islamic power, its long-time religio-political nemesis (see also the fifth and sixthtrumpets in Revelation 9), during the ?time of the end? (after 1798 and 1844).

In the course of a final campaign, which apparently aims to persecute God?s true people, the papacy abruptly meets its end (verses 44-45) just before a ?time of trouble? and Christ?s second coming (12:1-3). This interpretation accepts religious emphasis and globalization developing after Christ?s first coming as Israel becomes the Christian church and Rome becomes the papacy. However, God?s true Christian people are also affected by the political-military activities of Rome and Islam at particular times and locations." ....https://www.adventistworld.org/what-does-daniel-chapter-11-mean/

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #194932
08/13/22 08:46 PM
08/13/22 08:46 PM
Daryl  Online Canadian

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As you probably already know, Tim Roosenberg has a lot to say about this.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

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Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #194933
08/14/22 01:57 AM
08/14/22 01:57 AM
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There are three ways to use the Bible. The first would be of course exegesis, or what it meant to the original audience. Now, usually when later Bible writers, or Mrs. White, quotes the Bible, they rarely do an exegesis on the text. They make applications based on the exegesis. The second way to use the Bible is called historical analogy. Looking for the same principle from the text but applied to a later event. The third way is not really connected to the exegesis, but where there is a situation where the words of the Bible fit the situation. This has been called a homiletical usage. Unfortunately, too often we want to make these later analogies or homiletical usage to be the exegesis. When in Daniel's day they did not see the text as pointing to the pope, and even less so Antiochus (although it appears that the Antiochus situation caused people to take Daniel off the shelf and blow the dust off of it, and made some marginal notes that eventually got copied into the text.)

Deuteronomy 4:30 does equate the exile with the end of the world. Jeremiah 27:7 talks about the exile covering Nebuchadnezzar, his son, his grandson, then a new country that over comes Babylon leading to other nations and a time when God was going to take his people home. So we get an idea of 4 major and some minor divisions. Daniel starts with four divisions, and Daniel 2 has a word that we read the idea of kingdoms into, but the word really means individual kings. The book of Daniel names 4 kings: Nebuchadnezzar, Belshazzar, Darius, and Cyrus. Daniel 2 and 7 and somewhat 8 has the possibility that the exile could be the last days. Daniel 8 hints that they may not me, and definitely from Daniel 9 time was to continue. Instead of the exile ending in a glorious second exodus lead by the Messiah, there was going to be a lackluster return home, and 70 weeks of years where God wanted to again bless the people (in the last chapters of Isaiah there are texts that we apply to heaven, but is not a perfect representative of heaven. These were things that God wanted to do over the 70 weeks of years.)

Daniel 11 and 12, exegetically tells us what COULD have happened and what WOULD have happened had Jesus been accepted. In Daniel 9 we have Messiah the prince being cut off. One way the phrase translated "cut off" could be understood as being killed. In Daniel 12 we have Michael the Prince standing up. Again the phrase translated "standing up" can mean resurrection from the dead.

The last king of the north does not regard any of the false gods of history, so does he regard the true God? No he doesn't. Nor does he create a new false god, but only worships himself and causes the world to worship himself. (Daniel gives an interesting name for the true God: The one beloved of women. This is a name of Jesus we tend to overlook).

The last king of the north is at first accepted as the Messiah and is worshiped in the temple; but the wise realize that he is NOT the Messiah so he gets thrown out of the temple. He gathers Judah's enemies and conquers the Jews, and heads out in a south westerly direction conquering others, but not bothering Edom, Ammon and the chiefs of Moab. I've heard two understandings of these. Now all three of these nations once knew the truth, once followed the truth but eventually rejected the truth. So one interpretation is that Satan does not need to conquer them, but the rest of the Moabites shows that some of the backsliders can still change. The other interpretation is that since they once followed the truth, that God protects them except for a few of the Moabites who are not willing to repent and return to their early faith.

This king of the north continues in the south west campaign when he hears a horrible rumor from the north and east (the direction he had come from; and where Judah is located) and that horrible rumor is that Michael has stood up, Michael has risen from the dead. Messiah the prince who was killed in Daniel 9 has resurrected. And Daniel 12 tells how the world could have ended if Jesus was accepted when he was here.

From this exegesis of the text we can now draw analogies over how it is to be applied over history from the time of the ascension of Jesus until the Second Coming. I don't know how accurate it is, but I have made an analogy over these kings of the north and south based on the 7 parts of Daniel 2, and the 7 heads of Revelation 13.

These 7 parts are the powers that have ruled over most of God's people from the last son of David who ruled until THE Son of David is again ruling over his people.

1. Babylon
2. Medio-Persia
3. Greece
4. Rome
5. The Holy Roman Empire/Rule of the church in the middle ages: Clay represents being formed by God, but here instead of being formed by God the clay is being formed by politics, the iron. In Daniel 11 we have a king of the north who gives his daughter to marry the king of the south. A bride represents God's church, but again she is married to politics
6. The toes of iron and clay/the deadly wound/ In Daniel 11 a king of the north who only sends out collectors of tribute. A time where there is no great empire ruling over most of God's people. A time of independent nations, some offering more freedom, some more restrictive.
7. The toes attempt to join together, the deadly wound healed, that last despicable king of the north. This will last only a short time and end up in total chaos.

Followed by the stone not cut out by man's hands. When the Messiah will come to lead us home in the glorious second exodus to bring us home to the true Jerusalem, the true promised land.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #194949
08/28/22 01:07 AM
08/28/22 01:07 AM
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There are three ways of interpreting prophecies.

But first we need to establish the two types of Bible books that contain prophecies.

Classical prophets:
These are the Old Testament books of the prophets addressing the "classical" period of prophecy ? from the later years of the divided kingdoms of Judah and Israel, throughout the time of exile, and into the years of Israel's return from exile. They contain prophecies addressing Israel's immediate future, they prophecy the coming of the Messiah, they address what COULD be in the future if Israel accepted God's covenant and accepted Christ as their Messiah, and many of these "failed" prophecies will receive a more complete (though not in all their details) fulfillment in the end of time, and future restoration after Christ's second coming. (books like Isaiah, Jeremiah, Zechariah, Habakkuk, Malachi, etc)

Apocalyptical prophets:
Then there are two Bible books generally classified as "apocalyptic prophecy," in contrast to "classical prophecy". These books take a cosmic sweep of the great controversy between good and evil, not within a local and contemporary historical framework (like the classical prophets), but draws aside the curtain, as it were, from the historical period and span the whole sequence of human history clear to the restoration of all things. For example, Daniel begins with Babylon and takes us clear to the time of the end. Revelation begins in the apostle John's time and takes us to earth made new after the 1000 year millennium.

Originally Posted by Kevin
Daniel 11 and 12, exegetically tells us what COULD have happened and what WOULD have happened had Jesus been accepted. In Daniel 9 we have Messiah the prince being cut off. One way the phrase translated "cut off" could be understood as being killed. In Daniel 12 we have Michael the Prince standing up. Again the phrase translated "standing up" can mean resurrection from the dead.


Three problems I see here:
1. It is treating the book of Daniel basically as a classical prophecy and instead of seeing it as sweeping across all time, tries to see it having dual or more applications. This is where Ford went wrong and if pushed to logical conclusion will undermine the foundation of our beliefs.

2. Indeed Daniel 9 speaks of Christ's death "cut off". And so does Daniel 11:22 when the Prince of the covenant is broken, by Roman forces. But everything between verse 22 and Daniel 12:1 does NOT take place between Christ's crucifixion and Christ's resurrection.
Also notice Daniel 9:27 it is the Messiah that confirms the covenant and is "cut off" in the midst of the week (while the covenant was being offered to the Jews 27- 34 AD) Daniel already tells us what would happen to the Jewish nation when the prince they chose (we have no king but Caesar) destroys the city and the sanctuary and the end of it shall be with a flood (9:26)
Lots of linguistic parallels here with Daniel 11:22. What comes after Daniel 11:22 should logically then cover the Christian era.

3. Daniel 12 speaks of Michael standing up to deliver his people, -- every one who is found written in the book of life. This part is then SEALED until the time of the end.
This is an end time message. It is NOT a dual application classical book of prophecy. It is an apocalyptical book of prophecy.

Next we will look at the three ways apocalyptical books of prophecy have been interpreted.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #194950
08/28/22 12:47 PM
08/28/22 12:47 PM
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The three ways the apocalyptical books of prophecy, (Daniel and Revelation) have been interpreted are referred to as :
1. The continual historical or Historicists method which sees the prophecies unfolding over the entire time from the days of the prophet right through to the establishment of God's eternal kingdom.

2. The Preterist Method which places the prophecies mainly into the Old Testament times, including Christ's first advent and the first century or so following. Thus all those prophecies are now in the past and serve only as possible examples for future events.

3. Futurism while they do begin in the prophet's time and include Christ's first coming, they then leap over all of history since that time (which includes the bulk of Revelation) to be fulfilled in the future.

Protestantism (as well as Adventism) used the historicist method. Neither would have developed and gained strength without basing prophecies on the historicist method.
Thus the papal church's power was fatally wounded.
To counter this serious Biblical exposure of the papal system the historicist method had to be replaced. It was too obviously exposing the counterfeit oppressive endtime power. So the counter reformation pushed the other two methods which have now in some form or other pushed out the historicist method and the papal church has again risen (healing the wound) to be the world wide, ultimate spiritual leader, just a step of away from regaining the full power.

Now Protestantism is declared "dead" by most of the Protestant churches. And even Adventism (which is still holding onto historicism, in spite of questions on some of the details) is being infiltrated with many "progressives" who seek to introduce preterist and futurism into our interpretation of Daniel and Revelation.
That was Ford's big thing, he tried to introduce preterism.

And that's what I also see in Kevin's suggestion, using the debates by historicists on some of the details, especially in the last verses of Daniel 11, to embark on a preterist explanation of the prophecies.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #194957
08/31/22 11:14 PM
08/31/22 11:14 PM
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Thank you for your post and the concern that this is the same error that Desmond Ford committed. I should mention that I attended Atlantic Union College from 1977 - 82 (One year off to work as a pastor's assistant via. The Adventist Taskforce program.) This covered the height of the Desmond Ford situation. My professors were very anti-Ford. This is what they were teaching to prevent us students (and the surrounding community) from falling into the Ford situation. Both Desmond Ford and a few years later Walter Rea came with their horse and pony show. Ford actually gave the week of prayer my first semester. Then there was a debate between him and our New Testament professor. Sadly, I don?t have a recording of the debate, but it was one where Ford was expecting the routine ideas, and was not prepared for this debate. Rea only came to the town hall of the next town and debated the Old Testament/Spirit of Prophecy professor and again was prepared for the routine ideas, and ended up doing even worst than Ford did with the New Testament professor.

Our Daniel and Revelation seminar was basically developed among communities found in the Franciscan movement. They tended to update it to their time in history. Some of their applications were spot on, but others were not so good applications. Wycliffe built on this, and as the Protestants were getting the hard time from the Pope, they were able to turn to this method, and apply even stronger the criticisms that were developed about the Papacy.

The Bible uses either a homeletical use of earlier verses, or, and more often draws analogies to apply earlier principles to a similar situation. This is what we call "Historism". The early church fathers also used Historism, but it eventually fell out of vogue as Bible study was changed into allegories, where say the story of the Good Samaritan was not read out for what it said, but that the Good Samaritan was Paul, and the donkey was the gospel, and every little thing meant something else. This caused a big gap between the layiety and clergy because a plain lay member did not know what everything really meant in the allegory and only the priest could tell the congregation what the allegories were.

Then came Joachim of Flor. He gave a return to historism, and to simply read the words of scripture and take them at face value instead of drawing allegories out of everything. The church really pressured on him due to his popularity to encourage a crusade. The crusade was a dismal failure, and Joachim felt bad because he pushed for this, but did not see any light from God for this situation. However, being in the Middle East, Joachim realized that we need to use the culture of the time of the Bible in our study of the Bible. This included recovering the day-year principle. Joachim taught that the Pope could use his office to bring reform to the church. If he did not, then Satan was going to work through the Papacy for evil purposes.

One pope was impressed with Joachim's message, and gave at least a half hearted attempt to follow. But after he died the other popes were not happy with Joachim's teaching. Interestingly the church began teaching that while Joachim himself was not a heretic, that his teachings are heresy and whoever studies his work were heretics.

After Francisco died, a later Franciscan leader became very impressed with Joachim's message and even believed that Joachim was a true prophet of God. And thus many of the Franciscans became historistsm Wycliffe and then the Reformers continued to develop Joachim?s message. (I wonder what would have happened if the Reformation itself came out of the Franciscans instead of the Augustinians? They may have looked less evangelical and more Adventist.)

Now, Joachim, the Franciscans, and even Wycliffe and the reformers were living in the middle ages and start of the modern world. In the Middle East Joachim realized the importance of studying the Bible with in it?s culture. But we knew only a small amount of that culture until the 1840s. (Interesting time period.) The Rosetta stone was found and in 1822 it was deciphered. In the late 1830s Edward Robinson made his first trip to the Middle East and did the first scientific study of Biblical geography and his book came out in the early 1840s and was just starting to be read and studied as the world entered a new cycle as a Sabbatical year met a Jubilee (based on the early date of the exodus). That event happened on Yom Kippur 1844.

Robinson's work found many tells and opened the door to Biblical Archaeology. The Rosetta stone opened the door to understand ancient tablets that the archaeologists found. Prior to Robinson we could only read the words of the Bible. Translators had to guess as to how to translate several words, and even the words they did know was only a light idea as to just what the word or phrase really implied. Starting with reading Robinson's book and all that built on this has yes, not answered everything, but started us down the trail into the rediscovery of the ancient world. A time where we could start to study the Bible deeper than ever before. Oh how Joachim, the Franciscans, Wycliffe, and the Reformers, even the Wesleys would love to have lived in the world that Robinson's trip to the Middle East opened up. However they were the trail blazers that took us through history to the events of 1844. We can do a better job of Joachim's principle to study the Bible in the Middle Eastern Culture.

Yes, you are correct that the three methods of interpreting the Bible. Of course Historism as we find in the Bible, early church fathers, then from Joachim onward. Because of the way the Franciscans and later reformers used this to apply prophecies from Daniel and Revelation to the pope, the counter reformation formed two alternative methods:

Preterism where everything is placed ONLY in the immediate context of the text. This was taking Joachim?s principle of learning what you can about the original culture of the text, but then they stop there and say that?s all there is. Thus since all is in the past you can?t apply the texts to the pope.

Futurism which places everything to the end of time. This was also based on Joachim, he said something which was not one of his better ideas. Recently I heard it with in it?s context and it is not as bad as I?ll make it sound. He said that the Old Testament was the time of God the Father, The New Testament as the time for God the Son, and Church history is the time of the Holy Spirit. The counter reformation thus developed different dispensations, placing the prophecies only at the end of time. Futurism realizes that a final cycle is coming, but says that the final cycle is all there is.

True historism is looking at the original local application of scripture, taking the principles and applying to analogous situations as they cycle around again through out history, and there will be a final cycle.

Now among the problems with Preterism and Futurism there are two I?d like to point out. The first is that they are NOT based on the Bible, but some ideas said by someone who many believed to be a prophet of God. Second is that they are NOT FAIR to his either his message or to his methodology. In fact the counter reformation was using these parts of his message against the rest of his message in a way to superficially act like they respected him while resulting to undercut Joachim?s message. Both Preterism and Futurism is similar to if someone was to take Mrs. White?s closed door statements and building a whole new way to experience religion and read the Bible based on those quotes and rejecting her entire message.

An interesting point. To not have to deal with Mrs. White, several have closed prophecy with the close of the cannon. But these people tend to be dispensationalists, which is based on the idea that Joachim was a true prophet. Now these people need to answer the question of if prophecy continued beyond the cannon or not. If not, then Joachim cannot be a true prophet, and they will have to give up this belief that is based on a post Biblical prophet. If prophecy did continue, then they need to ask if Joachim was a true prophet or not. If not they need to give up dispensationalism. If he is, then they need to ask iif dispensationalism is fair to his ministry and teaching. (the answer is "NO") and they also need to ask if Mrs. White was a true prophet.

And again, our beliefs need to be built on the scripture, not on Joachim or Ellen White, whether they were true prophets or good people, Non-Biblical prophets and good people are not the source for our beliefs.

As to our belief in historism: The Bible has the theme about the promised child. On one level it was applied to Abraham having a son with Sarah. Then it cycles to the child that was to try to get King Ahaz to trust in God. He had two Kings getting ready to attack him. Isaiah gave him a sign of a child being born and before the child reached a certain milestone in development, the two kings would no longer be an issue. About some 700 years later this principle cycled around again to the ultimate fulfillment of the promised seed principle. (Now this is not to say that we may not someday find this principle cycling around to an application in our day. But Jesus is the ultimate fulfillment. Now if we wtry to use the Isaiah text as exegetically talking about Jesus, it does not make sense. Isaiah would be sqying ?King, trust in God. I know you are worried about these two kings, but in about 700 years a child will be born and before he reaches the developmental level the two kings that Ahaz was worried about will no longer be a threat. Just hold on Ahaz for about 700 years and you won?t have to worry about the two kings any more.

Now, I am not falling into Ford's going into preterism when I point out that Isaiah 7 had a specific local situation situation, but the word of God is bigger and the principles will cycle around again, and had it's greatest application in Jesus as Matthew pointed out.

I am aware that Gerhard Hassel, in consort with the vision of the church that Robert Pierson envisioned, formed a style of Bible study, in part of which Hassel said that while there is evidence that editing has been done to the text, that we are to ignore these and treat the text as if the final form was the original form.

However, there is one book in the Bible where it is difficult to apply this principle. It is the book of Amos. Now, languages are my weak point, I?m more into the history, culture and geography, but according to linguists there are two very, very different writing styles in Amos. Translators try to polish this off; but if you separate the two styles, Judah is left out of the warnings of the nations, and true to the poetic style, Israel is the 7th nation, the highlight of the entire message. This first style is all a warning to the Northern Kingdom about their pending destruction by Assyria. The second style is similar to if you hear a sermon or worship talk where someone is reading a text of scripture, then pausing every few verses to make personal comments, read some more, then adding comments through out the reading of the text and then a conclusion. These comments include making Judah the 7th country to get the warning (pushing Israel to an unuseual and non-poetic 8th country. And the rest of the comments applies the book about the Northern Kingdom and Assyria is reapplied to what Judah was going through 100 years later with Babylon. Here, in this second writing style, you see how the principle of Historism is used in the Bible, and that unlike Preterism and Futurism which is based on a misapplication of Joachim, When we look at Joachim as a whole, his historism was not something he made up, but actually is based on scripture. Our use of historism is not based on Joachim, Miller or Mrs. White, but is based on scripture.

On the other hand, to see how Amos was dealing with issues in the Northern Kingdom, a century before those additions, is not being a preterist and following the methods of Ford. Nor is the additional comments applying Amos to a new time and place is not being a dispensationalist.

In classes some of the criticisms the professors had of Ford included: His training was in New Testament Theology. He does not have the background for Daniel or other parts of the Old Testament. (in Old Testament studies, one fantastic book is Before Philosophy by Henri Frankfort and others, University of Chicago Press, 1946. Ford would have been so much better if he only read this one book, and he could also see how the ancient world had and used the day-year principle. ) Theologically, Ford was like if someone who was trained to be a heart surgeon that willy-nilly decided that he was just going to, without any training in the field, perform brain surgery. And even with his New Testament training, he was trained to read the words of Paul through the eyes of the Reformation instead of the context of the life of Paul himself.

Another point was that Ford read the Bible backwards, reading the cross into everything, instead of letting specific passages speak for themselves and see how the Bible develops to the cross.

A third was how Ford agreed too much with everyone, and thus did not have a consistent style of study. He differed in that he believed that Daniel had in mind not only the things of his day, but also Antiochus, and the Pope and a last day antichrist. That everyone is totally correct and exegesis covers each and everyone of these. In contrast our professors pointed out the two principles of exegesis and analogy. That we are to first look at the local application, learn the principles, and we can apply the principles as similar situations come. In other words, in Daniel 1-7 and somewhat 8 was looking to see how the exile could be the last days ending in a second great exodus lead by the Messiah. Somewhat in Daniel 8, and definitely chapters 9-12 Daniel uses historism by reapplying the principles of Daniel 1-7 (8) to a lackluster return to the end, but to prepare for the Messiah to come towards the end of the 70 weeks of years. Due to being rejected Jesus and the apostles, especially John, started using historism to apply to their age and forward. Whether Joachim was a prophet, or just a good man, he did revive historism and reminded us of the day-year principle. He did this at a time were we were very limited in exegesis, but he gave what was needed to nudge the church towards the reformation and towards Millerism. Today, since the 1840s we have been living in a world where we can do much better exegesis, and from a better exegesis we can make much better applications to analogous situations that will lead us through history and into what will be the final cycle.

The principle of exegesis and analogy is NOT following in Ford's mistakes of thinking that everyone was right.

Since, beginning in the 1840s, we have entered an age to get a better understanding of exegesis than ever before in history; this means that we can make better and more accurate analogies. What I wrote above on Daniel 9-12 and it?s application to what could have happened if Jesus was accepted comes from a careful straightforward reading of the text, without reading into it later analogies. But we are building on this principle for our application to the pope and our other application. Now, I did try to make an analogy on Daniel 11, but I confess that my analogy was based on how the 7 heads of the beast was interpreted by George McCready Price and the 1976 Southern New England Campmeeting Last Day Events seminar, and in studies of Daniel 2 by Stephen Haskell and Peri Windandy, which reflects Revelation 13. Now, I may be falling into Ford?s mistake of taking later understandings and pushing them into the text. For me this makes sense, but others who read the Bible more carefully and finds other evidence that clarifies the text better, so keep your eyes, ears and mind open. But I pray that as the Holy Spirit teaches us more about the topic, either through a better understanding of what could have happened in Daniel 9 ? 12, or just realizing events going one around us, I pray that I?d be willing to be teachable, instead of saying ?Hey, I got these degrees and I know what Price said in The Time of the End and what he said is solid there, thus I will continue to force his study on to Daniel 11.


Last edited by Kevin H; 08/31/22 11:22 PM.
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #194962
09/01/22 11:51 AM
09/01/22 11:51 AM
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I think today's devotional reading is relevant here, especially the bolded parts:

Standing Before Courts and Councils - Maranatha - September 1st

"I will speak of thy testimonies also before kings, and will not be ashamed." Psalms 119:46.


"In the great closing work we shall meet with perplexities that we know not how to deal with, but let us not forget that the three great powers of heaven are working, that a divine hand is on the wheel, and that God will bring His purposes to pass.

The time will come when we shall be brought before councils and before thousands for His name's sake, and each one will have to give the reason of his faith.

Every position of truth taken by our people will bear the criticism of the greatest minds; the highest of the world's great men will be brought in contact with truth, and therefore every position we take should be critically examined and tested by the Scriptures. Now we seem to be unnoticed, but this will not always be. Movements are at work to bring us to the front, and if our theories of truth can be picked to pieces by historians or the world's greatest men, it will be done.

The Lord Jesus will give the disciples a tongue and wisdom that their adversaries can neither gainsay nor resist. Those who could not by reasoning overcome satanic delusions, will bear an affirmative testimony that will baffle supposedly learned men. Words will come from the lips of the unlearned with such convincing power and wisdom that conversions will be made to the truth. Thousands will be converted under their testimony.

Why should the illiterate man have this power, which the learned man has not? The illiterate one, through faith in Christ, has come into the atmosphere of pure, clear truth, while the learned man has turned away from the truth. The poor man is Christ's witness. He cannot appeal to histories or to so-called high science, but he gathers from the Word of God powerful evidence. The truth that he speaks under the inspiration of the Spirit, is so pure and remarkable and carries with it a power so indisputable, that his testimony cannot be gainsaid."


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #194964
09/01/22 04:13 PM
09/01/22 04:13 PM
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Amen Daryl!!!

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #194965
09/02/22 01:13 PM
09/02/22 01:13 PM
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Thanks for your reply. Yes the Ford issue was a big crises in the church back around 1977. We kind of missed the debate in college as we attended just before it became really open. Interestingly we have a book by Ford on Daniel written before his departure from Adventist prophetic interpretation in which he gives some pretty good explanations for our interpretation.
It was after university days that we met his ?new theology? not from Ford himself, but from his followers, some of whom were members of our own family, who thought Ford was the greatest preacher/ teacher in Adventist which we all should follow. The disharmony and departure, not only from prophetic understanding but also from several basic Adventist Biblical beliefs was heart rending. For us it led to deep study of scripture as well as reading the early writings of Adventist pioneers, whom we found had already met and answered quite a few of the issues now being brought forth. And yes we read the studies present day Advents also wrote in answer to Fords ideas.
Isaiah
As to the prophesies in Isaiah? Isaiah is a ?classical? book not an apocalyptic book which means he wrote to primarily to meet the needs of his time with applications to the coming of the Messiah, what it could mean for Israel and also many future applications should messiah be rejected. In Isaiah all the future endtime applications need some reinterpretation as they mix the two applications.
However Daniel and Revelation is not a mixing but linear moving several times through the history from the prophets time to a specific time in the future.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #194975
09/06/22 06:48 PM
09/06/22 06:48 PM
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Amen dedication!!! Now, we will have to agree to disagree on apocalyptic prophecy being more set in stone than classical prophecy. I see both, and see the evidence pointing to both apocalyptic and classical prophecy offering a message that could have been fulfilled around or at least start to be fulfilled around the time the prophecy was given; and that our method for Bible study should be first see how they could have been fulfilled back then, and from this make the application of the principles as we meet current situation. But overall we are a lot closer as we see the Bible's application to our day.

The point is to present what we understand the best way we know how, and others can look at it and choose what makes the most sense to them, their understanding of the Bible and conscience, and respect each other's choice. This is how I understand Roger Williams, Thomas Jefferson and James Madison understood freedom, especially liberty of conscience, Mrs. White's eschatological issue which Sunday laws grow out of, and John Kennedy's talk about the difference between being a "Catholic candidate for President, and a candidate for office who happens to worship in the Catholic church showed that he understood this principle. . And I see this as a response to spiritualism/existentialism's "Live as you please for heaven is your home. what is right for you is your truth, your existential experience is your final authority..." and the beasts religion by force. Today this view of Williams, Jefferson/Madison, Mrs. White, and John Kennedy is lost to the beliefs of spiritualism or the beastly power. We have too many "Fundamentalist Christian politicians" we have too many "Catholic justices on the supreme court." instead of politicians who worship in those churches, or supreme court justices who worship in those churches. Everyone wants to "make America great again" but no one wants to do it on what Williams, Jefferson/Madison (especially as expanded via the age of Jackson) view that Mrs. White taught and Kennedy showed an awareness of. Everyone wants to either make us catholic Europe (yes, small "c". Your religion was based on where you were born.) or French Revolution Europe. One political party wants to push the religion of Evangelical Christianity, too many in the other wants to push the religion of secular humanism.

"New Theology" is such a strange term. I first heard it in connection to Ford, but I'm now trying to use other terms for the Ford situation. (and yes, I see it even worst among his followers than from himself.) I've found four ways the term "New Theology" has been used, and one of these 4 I hope covers my approach.

The first two started around the turn to the 20th century. Now chronologically I don't know which one came first, and I wonder about if there was a connection between these first two. One of the two ways "New Theology" was used would have been for the from of Biblical studies that used ONLY preterism, Used higher criticism in a way to do away with the Bible, and seeing the Bible as purely a human book.

A second way was to define Mrs. White's theology from about 1888 on. As well as how people such as A.G. Daniels, W. W. Prescott and Willie applied this. Things like the trinity moving from a topic that "you can believe it if you wish, but most of us are against it" to becoming the very core of her great controversy philosophy. And I know that she had a more liberal view of how inspiration worked than Fundamentalism taught. This became her last great battle in the church, she was old, died, and sadly lost. I don't know how much her fight against Fundamentalism for a more moderate view of inspiration from the two extremes that churches fell into, made our Fundamentalist members see her view of inspiration as part of the above view of "New Theology". I am hoping that my approach fits within this view.

The third way was how I had learned it, the views of Ford and the more extreme applications of his "followers". Egads, this certainly does not apply to me.

The fourth way that I've come across is now "New Theology" is used by anyone and it is applied to any view that they don't like no matter what that view could be.

Back to Dr. Ford, one of the sad things is the context that he learned New Testament theology. It is now called "The Old View of Paul" where Paul's words were read, but the ideas of the church-synagogue split of 135 AD, the views of Augustine, and the views of the reformers, especially Luther were defining Paul's words.

In recent decades there has been what is called "The New View of Paul" and while some of the "New View" theologians have applications I'm not that comfortable with, others I am very comfortable with. The "New View" tried to read Paul's words from the time that he lived instead of the events of 135 AD, Augustin's life and Luther's life. It is a lot more Jewish friendly and a lot more law friendly.

When I was at AUC a student showed me a line he read in a commentary on something Paul wrote, it said "I wish I was there to see the look on Paul's face the first time he ate a ham and cheese sandwich." That line I now see is very classic "Old view of Paul" the "New View" sees Paul as a kosher eating Sabbath Keeper, but not under all the traditions (the times given for some of his travels would include say being on a boat over the Sabbath, but still worshiping God and resting in general every Sabbath, and expecting at least Christians of Jewish heritage to eat kosher, and arguing over how much this applies to gentiles.)

I don't know how long ago the "New View" started, and I don't know how much of the "New View" Ford had met. Often we like to pretty much stop were our professors stopped, and only cautiously add something new. Fortunately these cautions get picked up with less caution and more study by the next generation to build upon and move on. I know where Ford was coming from. I could have lived with it if he would have said something like "From my background, I am not aware of the day-year principle in the ancient world, and I don't see how the investigative judgment fits in; but then again I am not an Old Testament theologian. Listen to them if they found any evidence that I don't understand." To allow these ideas to have the benefit of the doubt, instead of talking dogmatically against these ideas. That was Ford's biggest mistake. We have had other scholars who repeated Ford's smaller mistakes, but they were not dogmatic about it, gave them the benefit of the doubt and allowed other scholars to cover their gaps in knowledge and allowed for open discussion and they stayed faithful members through their life.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #194982
09/10/22 01:07 AM
09/10/22 01:07 AM
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As mentioned in another thread, the term "new theology" as generally used by Adventists in the negative sense, is anyone who comes up with a theology (old or new) that weakens or erodes any of the seven pillars of Adventism. (1. Salvation by faith in Christ, 2. the Sabbath, 3. truth about death and the resurrection, 4. the sanctuary where Christ is high Priest and the judgment, 5. nature of Christ's second coming, the millennium, and post millennium events, 6. God as a personal Being - personality of God, 7. The Spirit of Prophecy.)

And yes, we disagree on how to interpret Daniel and Revelation.
Both books start with events in the prophets time and then move through history to the end.
As we see the powers emerging at their specified point in history, and develop through history. We are told the main and longest lived power will "disappear" for a time, only to reemerge in a slightly different form with considerable power in the end, thus we can see the progressive steps. Yes, by seeing how these powers acted in the past we have a pretty good idea how they will act when "healed". But it's not "dual" application, as the prophecies give account of their rise, descent, and healing in their time in earth's story.

It isn't a new thing that some Adventists are trying to bring in more futuristic and preteristic views of these two books. Literature is filled with "rethinking the prophecies" material and trying to apply the prophecies to multiple events. Noting that Israel failed to accept the Messiah, there are those who then relegate the book of Daniel's prophecies as failed, and will only have a variety and disjointed fulfilments in the future.

What does that interpretation do to the sure word of prophecy?
Basically there is no "sure word" at all.
There is no longer the evidence that history was foreseen and revealed before it happened.
One of the big anchors on truth, is seeing that history unfolded just as God forsaw it would.
God knows --
The steps of history unfolded just like prophecied, thus we can be sure the remaining steps of yet unfullied prophecy will unfold and we know what side wins the battle.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #194989
09/11/22 02:31 AM
09/11/22 02:31 AM
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Daniel 11

Covers history from Daniel's time....

11:1-2 Deals with the kingdom of Media/Persia, which "stirs" up Greece.
11:3 Deals with the rise of Greece under Alexander
11:4 The Grecian Empire forged by Alexander breaks apart into four divisions
11:5-15 Two of the four divisions of Grecia wrestling with each other, God's chosen nation caught in the middle.
11:16 Rome begins to rise up
11:17-19 Rome's rise from a more republican form to an empire. Julius Caesar is assassinated by his own in verse 19.
11:20 Rise of the first Emperor of Rome, Augustus Caesar the tax collector that facilitated Christ's birth in Bethlehem.
11:21-22 More contemptable emperors, arise, under which Christ, the Prince of the Covenant is killed, and a few years later the Jewish system is destroyed like a flood, swept away.

That brings us to the end of the Jewish era (basically the 70 weeks)

The rest of Daniel 11 deals with the "Christian era" to the time of the end.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #194991
09/13/22 01:33 AM
09/13/22 01:33 AM
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Adventists have differed on the interpretation of the second half of Daniel 11. But first there are points on which most agree.
1. Continue to use the historicity approach. Those who would like to use the lack of full agreement among Adventist interpretations as an excuse to bring in preterits or futurist methods are usually not accepted.
2. Daniel 2,7,8,9 are viewed as patterns, each telling the same sweep of history but focusing on different emphases in that sweep of history. Daniel 11 is expected to follow the same story. So we look for connecting links between it and the other chapters to help interpreter the chapter

So looking at the patterns?

It sort of helps to look at chapter 9 first. Then chapter 8, and then chapter 7.

Chapter 9. Deals with time from the reestablishment of the Jews after their captivity and telling them a period of time is allotted to them to prepare for the coming of the Messiah. He.will ratify the covenant with His death thus bringing in righteous and salvation to all who will accept Him as the Prince of the covenant, but another prince is chosen. ?We have no king but Caesar?. That choice resulted in the desolation of the temple and the nation
Daniel 9 covers the 70 weeks allotted the Jewish nation as well as predicting the destruction by Rome of their nation
457 BC ? 34 AD also including the destruction of 70 AD and sadly predicting more trouble for them

Chapter 8 includes the time period of the 70 weeks (490 years) but then goes much further
It starts with Medes and Persians (who set the Jews free so their 70 weeks began) the prophecy moves through the Grecian empire and then introduces another even greater power as well as the ?tamid? or daily. Once the great horn is in power there are no more sacrifices (though translators added the word to the daily) but Daniel did not write the word sacrifice in chapter 8 Daniel told us the Messiah put an end to sacrifices when He was put to death (Daniel 9:27).
Daniel 8 is dealing with Christ?s heavenly ministry in the heavenly sanctuary as well as exposing a powerful entity on earth which is trying to replace that ministry with their own abominations. In fact, the horn reinstated bloodless sacrifice (mass) to obscure Christ?s priestly work in the heavenly sanctuary. His sacrifice was completed once and for all, thus Daniel did not write the word sacrifice in connection with the daily. The Daily stands alone as the subject and Christ is our High priest

Chapter 7 covers all time since Daniel. It includes time from Daniel?s period through the time of the 490 (70 weeks). On through the 1260 years when Christ?s ministry was obscured and His true followers persecuted. In this chapter we see an awesome description of the pre advent judgment in heaven when God?s people are vindicated and false system is condemned and then the chapter moves on clear to the restoration of all things


And yes. Daniel chapters 11-12 covers earths same journey from Daniels time to the end
Verses 1-21 deals the time period covered in Daniel 9 but like Daniel 8 and 7 these last chapters go on through the Christian Era and the time of the end and final triumph righteousnes

Last edited by dedication; 09/13/22 01:58 AM.
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #194996
09/14/22 09:32 PM
09/14/22 09:32 PM
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Daniel 11:22 And with the arms (Roman armies) of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the Prince of the covenant.
11:23 And after the league made with him, he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people
.

An historic league which is made sometime after the Prince of the covenant is swept away (crucified), now changes the course of history.
What two forces unite that develops the power which figured so prominently in the later day prophesies of Daniel?
Well, in Daniel eight we see a horn rising (a power greater than the symbols previous. Interestingly the horn starts as an ?it? and then transforms into ?He?. Following the sequence in chapters 2 and 7 we recognize this horn as Rome, but it appears Daniel eight wants us to see this horn in both Rome in its imperial stage and transforming into its Papal stage.

Daniel 11 shows more of this transition for a league is entered into. The emperor of Rome makes a league with Christianity. After Constantine makes this league Roman emperors are seen presiding over church councils and the bishop of Rome is growing strong as the highest level of spiritual leadership. He rose in power, not so much by military might but on the shirt tails of imperial Rome and more by devising plans.

So Daniel 11.:23-24 is Christianity merging with Rome and the growing power and influence of the bishop of Rome

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195025
09/25/22 05:30 AM
09/25/22 05:30 AM
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The king of the north.

There is symbolic meaning to being "the king of the north" that goes even beyond geographic direction.

God is the true king of the North!
"Psalm 48:1, 2.
Great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised
In the city of our God, in the mountain of His holiness.
Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth,
Is Mount Zion, on the sides of the north,
The city of the great King
."



Satan desires to be worshipped as god and set up his throne in the sides of the North.

Isaiah 14
"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend unto heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the Most High.


Human powers described as "king of the north" would seem to need to fulfil these conditions:
(1) interact directly with God?s people -- sit on the mount of the congregation
(2) demand or call for worship in some form -- Rev. 13:4 when people worship the beast they worship the dragon.
(3) at various points compete with the rival king (king of south)

Pontifex Maximus-- seems to fit that title for the king of the north, all through Daniel 11


Babylon - The Babylonian high priest, was called Pontifex Maximus. The council of the chief priests of the Babylonian system was called the "College of Pontiffs" with the "Pontifex Maximus presiding over the council.
Media Persia The Babylonian cult continued under Media Persia for a time but later flee to Pergamos..
Greece In Pergamos, these Babylonian priests set up the cult there. Revelation 2:13 says that satan's seat or throne is in Pergamos which seems to indict it was there because Babylonian priests moved their Babylonian religion to Pergamos.

Rome
The first Roman ruler to take the name Pontifex Maximus was Julius Caesar in 63 BC.
The early church fathers say that the Pontifex Maximus was the "King of Heathendom", the high priest of the pagan mystery religion of Rome. They were writing when the Roman Empire itself was pagan.
Yet when Constantine became the first "Christian" Emperor, one of his titles was Pontifex Maimus. So then, under imperial law (though not Church law), this actually made the emperor the "Head of the Church".
Later Emperor Gratian (360 AD) refused the title and give it to Damascus, Bishop of Rome. By 431 AD the Pope's held the title Pontifex Maximus and popes have held that title ever since.

One of the most amazing aspects about the ascendancy of the papacy is that the church of Rome presents the pope as the "Pontifex Maximus" a title that carries through from Babylon to the pope!

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195081
10/18/22 01:20 AM
10/18/22 01:20 AM
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So to review:
how Daniel 11 covers history from Daniel's time to the end.

PERSIAN DOMINANCE
11:1-2 Deals with the kingdom of Media/Persia, which "stirs" up Greece.
Reference to Media/Persia ends with Xerxes who ruled (486-465 B.C.) and conducted a massive invasion into Greece in 480 BC (stirring them up greatly) but the Persians are roundly defeated and driven back, thus the prophecy moves on to this new power, though Persia has more kings after Xerxes.

KEY TO PROPHETIC interpretation is that prophecy moves to the next dominant power when a kingdom loses its dominance, NOT when they disappear as a kingdom.

GREEK DOMINANCE
11:4 The Grecian Empire forged by Alexander rises, then breaks apart into four divisions
11:5-14 Two of the four divisions of Grecia wrestling with each other, God's chosen nation caught in the middle.
Antiochus III, (the great) was the last "great" king of the Grecian kings of the North. For a time it seemed he was having considerable success even against the republic of Rome. But in the decisive battle of Magnesia ad Sipylum in 190 BCE, the Roman general, Eumenes, fielded an army of 30,000 against Antiochus III?s 70,000. But in spite of his superior numbers, Antiochus III was soundly beaten. The massive Seleucid army, one of the largest armies assembled until then, was in shambles. The empire of Grecia never recovered though it continued for a while longer. Even Antiochus Epiphanes, son of Antiochus III was taken as a hostage to Rome and paid tribute to Rome even when he later took the Seleucid throne. The Seleucid's lost their domination of the middle eastern world at this battle, and though their kingdom struggles on under several more kings, now the focus moves to Rome.

ROMAN DOMINANCE BEFORE CHRISTIANITY
11:16 Rome begins to rise up
11:17-19 Rome's transition from a more republican form to an empire. Julius Caesar is assassinated by his own in verse 19.
11:20 Rise of the first Emperor of Rome, Augustus Caesar, the tax collector that facilitated Christ's birth in Bethlehem.
11:21-22 More contemptable emperors, arise, under which Christ, the Prince of the Covenant is killed, and a few years later the Jewish system is destroyed like a flood, swept away.

Christ's first coming is the central point in the world's history, His death and resurrection closes the Old Testament history, closes the 70 week prophecy and moves us into the Christian era.

ROMAN DOMINANCE UNITED WITH CHRISTIANITY
11:23-24 The emperor of Rome, Constantine, makes a league with Christianity beginning in 313 AD.. After Constantine makes this league, Roman emperors are seen presiding over church councils and the bishop of Rome is growing in strength above other bishops, as the highest level of spiritual leadership. Alongside the emperor, the bishop of Rome rose in power, not so much by military might but on the shirt tails of imperial Rome and more by devising plans. So, Daniel 11.:23-24 is Christianity merging with Rome and marks the beginning of the process for the bishop of Rome to develop into the papacy.

11:25-30 Plucking up the three horns to make room for papal supremacy.
" And he (the king of the north) shall stir up his power and his courage against the king of the south " Before the papacy gains the seat in Rome a power in the south must be subdued. The Vandelic War in Carthage, in 533?534. The Vandels had taken over much of northern Africa from Rome. Vandal activity in the Mediterranean was so substantial that the sea's name in Old English was Wendels? (i. e. Sea of the Vandals). They were in control of some of the richest lands of their\\ former empire. The ?bread basket? of the Roman Empire had been their provinces in North Africa, covering vast swatches of Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, and Libya. There were several pretty intense battles both of aggression and defense. Broken treaties. The Vandels fended off several Roman attempts to recapture the African province, and they even sacked the city of Rome in 455. Their kingdom collapsed in the Vandalic War of 533?34, in which Emperor Justinian I's forces reconquered the African provinces, Justinian was trying rebuild the empire as it was in former years, but he couldn't build it up, instead he pretty much simply cleared the opposing powers and left the west in the hands of the pope,

PAPAL DOMINANCE
From these verses onward, we enter into the PAPAL era.

Several of these verses 31 and onward match up with events mentioned in Daniel 8 and 7..
Thus we know where the prophecy is at that point of the unfolding. Verse 30 is a transition verse. The next verses cover the 1290 and 1260 years of papal supremacy.

To be continued:

Re: The King of the North [Re: dedication] #195097
10/20/22 11:25 PM
10/20/22 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by dedication
As mentioned in another thread, the term "new theology" as generally used by Adventists in the negative sense, is anyone who comes up with a theology (old or new) that weakens or erodes any of the seven pillars of Adventism. (1. Salvation by faith in Christ, 2. the Sabbath, 3. truth about death and the resurrection, 4. the sanctuary where Christ is high Priest and the judgment, 5. nature of Christ's second coming, the millennium, and post millennium events, 6. God as a personal Being - personality of God, 7. The Spirit of Prophecy.)

.


Just a question; since Adventists called Mrs. White's post-1888 writings and lectures as "New Theology" and yes, given in a very negative sense by many, I don't see how her "New Theology" despite it's criticism even to members claiming that she apostatized, did any eroding of the 7 pillars.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Kevin H] #195100
10/21/22 02:31 AM
10/21/22 02:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Kevin H


Just a question; since Adventists called Mrs. White's post-1888 writings and lectures as "New Theology" and yes, given in a very negative sense by many, I don't see how her "New Theology" despite it's criticism even to members claiming that she apostatized, did any eroding of the 7 pillars.

SOME Adventists (not all by any means) felt she was undermining some of their standard arguments and their influence, and felt threatened . But, No, she didn't erode any of the 7 pillars, though some of her critics thought she did.

There is progressing into deeper understanding of truths which is GOOD. And there is progressing away from truth into stuff that undermines the truth. We need to pray for discernment and the Holy Spirit in order to detect the difference.


Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195101
10/21/22 03:47 AM
10/21/22 03:47 AM
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Back to the King of the North in Daniel 11
We covered verses 1-29 in a previous post,
seeing a continuous flow through history, covering the 70 weeks in verses 1-21.
Then covering the time leading up to 538 in verses 22-29.
Now we enter into 1260 and 1290 years -- the papal years.

30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

After the league Rome made with Christianity in 313, it was the emperor that had considerable authority over the church. Presiding over their councils, etc. But Rome was loosing territory to the barbarians. In verses 25-29 we see the emperor, especially Justinian, making a last attempt to restore the Roman empire -- drive out the Vandals from Africa in the South, and the Ostrogoths from Rome.

But the ships come against him ???
One of the biggest things that stopped Justinian and prevented him from maintaining his new conquests was something that spread rapidly, by ship, trade and the transportation of armies, throughout the Mediterranean territory. A deadly plague killed millions, and Constantinople was heaviest hit. Approximately 40% of the population of Constantinople perished from the plague and about 25% of the empire?s population (50 million) died.

The wars cleared the lands around Rome of barbarian control. Due to the plague, and wars threatening from the east, emperor Justinian left off reconquering and maintaining the original Roman territories and returned to Constantinople. Thus the Roman seat was vacant and ready for papal control.

Intelligence with them that forsake the covenant.
Justinian passed the torch to the pope.
Emperor Justinian published and addressed the Pope of Rome as the acknowledged head of all the churches (not just the Western churches, but ALL the churches), with the authority to uphold church doctrines by force. Since then the Pope has assumed the garb of representative of Jesus Christ on Earth.






Re: The King of the North [Re: dedication] #195106
10/21/22 06:46 PM
10/21/22 06:46 PM
Kevin H  Online Content
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Originally Posted by dedication
Originally Posted by Kevin H


Just a question; since Adventists called Mrs. White's post-1888 writings and lectures as "New Theology" and yes, given in a very negative sense by many, I don't see how her "New Theology" despite it's criticism even to members claiming that she apostatized, did any eroding of the 7 pillars.

SOME Adventists (not all by any means) felt she was undermining some of their standard arguments and their influence, and felt threatened . But, No, she didn't erode any of the 7 pillars, though some of her critics thought she did.

There is progressing into deeper understanding of truths which is GOOD. And there is progressing away from truth into stuff that undermines the truth. We need to pray for discernment and the Holy Spirit in order to detect the difference.



Exactly. Sadly, there was a train of thought in Adventism that had become fearful of her later writings and gave warnings about her "apostacy" however, after she died, they sweeped this part of their history under the rug, turned her into a saint who was completely faithful to their view of Adventism.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195131
10/29/22 07:13 AM
10/29/22 07:13 AM
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Danel 11 continued:
vs 20 Birth Christ
vs 21 Dictatorial Emperors, since Rome is no longer a republic now emperors control the Roman Empire
vs 22 Death of Christ and fall of Jerusalem by Rome (Romes destroying "f"lood" affects Christians as well)
vs 23 League is made between Rome and Christianity 312 AD
vs 24 Bishop of Rome given prestige over other bishops and exalted by Rome
25-30 Wars against barbarians. Rooting out three horns -- especially the driving out of the Vandals in northern Africa, (the bread basket of Rome)
Justinian's wars to reunite Roman Empire at first with a measure of success -- falters, -
vs 30 Ships bring plague to Mediterranean lands, further defeating Justinian's plans, driving him back to Constantinople.
Justinian's new code of law includes law in which Pope is head of all churches and sits in the seat of Rome.

Against the holy covenant
We see several references that there is an attack on the COVENANT in these verses. ( vs 28 and 30 )
I see this as an attack on the true gospel of Christ.

Justinian had considerable
intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant. He himself was a persecutor of any Christians that did not agree with his version of Christianity. Many fled to Gothic kingdom in Italy. After driving the Goths out of Rome (535?554), Emperor Justinian I forced the Goth appointed Pope Silverius to abdicate and installed Pope Vigilius; Justinian next appointed Pope Pelagius I, to replace Vigilius before allowing the church to select their pope in the future, Thus enforcing his version of religion on the west, as well as giving the pope authority over all churches with the responsibility of enforcing the "accepted" form of Catholisms and persecuting "heritics".

Though the position of the papacy was already growing strong even before Justinian. We are now entering the Papal era in Daniel's prophecy.

Attack on Christ's Daily Ministry


vs 31 An army was given to the papacy. An important point in weaning themselves away from Emperor control.
Damiel 11.31
And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily (Christ's continuous priestly work will be removed from people's understanding) , and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
This corresponds to
Daniel 8:11-12
?And by him the daily was taken away and the place of His sanctuary was cast down. Because of transgression, an army was given over to the horn to oppose the daily and he cast truth down to the ground.?
Daniel 12:11
?From the time that the daily is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up; there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.?


When the Papal power receives an army, the abomination that makes desolation is set up, and Christ?s heavenly ministry is obscured by force for 1290 day/years.
Yes, the Roman power had helped build up the papacy, but now the papacy was fighting to come out from under the control of the emperor and establish it's supremacy as a higher voice than that of government.
It was the conversion of the Frank king, Clovis,(508) that supplied the Papacy with an army. If it weren?t for the Franks, the Papacy would not have had the power she had during the middle ages.

32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.''

So we see the Pope depending upon the ?sword? of Frankish kings to subdue the people under his ecclesiastical control. Yet he also had great flattering control over the people as they came to believe that the church actually had the power to save or condemn. They began to believe that the pope and his priests really did hold the so called ?keys? to the kingdom. To gain the authority over the kings and people, the papacy used the power of the ?keys?, granting absolutions to sin to those who executed their will, and eternal delights to those who upheld her cause, while damning to everlasting hell ,and excommunicating, thus depriving from the supposed salvic sacraments, those who were against her cause. As well as granting other incentives.

But God still had his people. They weren't silent.





Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195172
11/14/22 02:59 PM
11/14/22 02:59 PM
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The next verses speak of God's true followers throughout the 1260 years and to the end.

11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

11:34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be helped with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
11:35 And [some] of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.


Who are these people? They are the ones who are hiding in the wilderness for 1260 years as Revelation 12 tells us. They were the Waldenses, the Huguenots, the Albigenses. They were the mighty reformers, who at the peril of their lives stood up to proclaim the errors of the established church and sent the people back to Bible religion.

Daniel 7:25 also describes these many days (1260 day/years) when God's saints will fall by the sword and flame, by captivity and blunder...to refine them and purify them until the time of the end, because it is for an appointed time.
And what is the appointed time of this persecution? Daniel 12:7 says it is for a time, times and half a time (1260 years) that the power of the holy people shall be shattered.

?Yet they that understand shall instruct many?
This corresponds with Rev. 11: 3

"I will give power to my two witnesses and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days (1260 day/years) clothed in sackcloth."
During the wilderness condition, God indicated that the true church, though under a long period of strong opposition and persecution would continue to carry the gospel to the world. They had the whole BIBLE both NT and OT and risked their very lives to share its message.

But God is always with His people, even when it seems all forces are against them. The greatest "help" was their trust in God and the knowledge of the hereafter with HIM.

In the twelfth chapter of Revelation we also read that God?s people will be HELPED.
Rev. 12.16
And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Yet flattery did more damage than the persecution. Many a brave reformer who had re-established truths, gained supporters, achieved a ?respectable? standing and stopped advancing. Indeed, many of them, in turn persecuted, or sanctioned the persecution of those who sought fuller truth.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195220
12/03/22 04:09 AM
12/03/22 04:09 AM
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Daniel 11:36 begins with a formula that has been seen three times elsewhere in the chapter, and once in chapter 8.
"He will do as he pleases" "according to his will"

11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvelous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

1. Daniel 8:4 The (Persian) ram "he did according to his will, and became great"

2. Dan 11:3 A mighty king (of Greece) shall stand up and do according to his will

3. Dan 11:16 Another king (Rome) comes against the previous one and "shall do according to his own will"

4. Dan 11:36 "The king (Papal Rome) shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, (Papal Rome)

Four different times that statement is being made.
The first is that the Persian ram would do as he pleased (8:4).
The second is that Alexander the Great would do as he pleased (11:3).
The third is that the Roman power which dislodged the Seleucids would do as it pleased. (11:16). And the fourth is that the Roman Papal power which had been active throughout vss. 30-35 The article implies this king is not new, he has been busy in vss. 30-35 and he would do as it pleased him (11:36).

Each new occurrence of the formula makes a new statement and has
reference to a different historical entity.
And those entities referred to are following the same sequence as the ones in Daniel 2, 7 and 8.
Rome (the last of the world empires) is subdivided, appearing in two distinct phases. The political iron Rome first, then the mixture of iron and clay, papal rome.

Verses 30-35 tell what the papacy does.
Verses 36-39 those verses give us insight into the attitudes which motivate such behavior.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195227
12/06/22 04:13 AM
12/06/22 04:13 AM
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We already know from verse 30 -32 that God's covenant of salvation was under attack by the papal system:
11:30-32 indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant. they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily [Christ's continual ministry], and they shall place the abomination [counterfeit worship system] that maketh desolate. And do wickedly against the covenant..


What is God's covenant?

  • *In a nutshell it is God's promise to take away sin and offer eternal life. (Romans 11:27)]
    *Its central point is Christ, the prince of the covenant, His death on the cross, by which He gives forgiveness and cleansing to all who come to Christ. He is ministering for us in the heavenly sanctuary. (1 John 1:9 and 2:1-3)
    *It offers a changed lives -- "For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people. [Hebrews 8:10] *
    *Those who by faith take hold of the covenant, will keep God's commandments, including the Sabbath. (See Rev. 14:12 and Isaiah 56:6)
    *They join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keeps the sabbath from polluting it, and takes hold of my covenant.

    *To turn against God's commandments and willfully continue in sin is an attack on the covenant and deprives those people of the covenant's benefits. (Hebrews 10:26-27]



How did the papacy attack God's covenant?

  • *The papal church basically usurped the continual ministry of Christ. They cast down the place of Christ's heavenly sanctuary. Instead of looking to the heavenly high priest in the heavenly sanctuary, earthly priests administered forgiveness, penance, etc, and even a regular bloodless sacrifice (mass). .

    *The papal church set itself over God's commandments, They removed the second commandment altogether, and openly and forcefully pushed out the seventh day Sabbath of the fourth commandment to set up their own Sunday in its place.


Other texts in Daniel speaking of the same power:
7:25 speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws
8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily [Christ's continual ministry] was taken away, and the place [not the sanctuary itself but the place] of his sanctuary was cast down. [/color]

The next texts in Daniel 11 reveal character of this power.

11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvelous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

This description is repeated in several places and points to the papal self exaltation.[/color]
Paul foretells the same thing:
2 Thess. 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day, [the day of Christ's coming, shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
1 Thess 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.



And Daniel is repeating the same characteristics in an earlier chapter

Daniel 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practice, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes;


The Reformers recognized these passages to refer to the papacy, who has place placed himself in the place of God to people.
The members of the papal system who are elevated to positions of ecclesiastical power are supposedly above the normal "desire" to have a relationship with a woman. Celibacy is considered a virtue of superior godliness,


11:38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

Honour the power of state armies:
Compare the phrase "God of forces" with a previous phrase. "his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power". The papacy relied on the state armies to enforce it's dogmas. Once the nations refused to use their armies to enforce religious dogmas, the papacy lost it's might. However that wound heals in the last days, thus we see in Revelation this same power, called spiritual Babylon, rises again in the time of the end, but it will come to its end..

Honor with gold, silver and precious things"
To gain the support of the kings and their armies, favors were granted, bribes were paid . The popes crowned emperors, while archbishops crowned kings.
Note in Revelation when, in the future, spiritual Babylon falls, how it affects the the monetary world. Obviously this system was honouring them with gold, silver, and precious things.
Rev. 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
18:12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,



11:39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge [and] increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
Papal influence and power over the nations

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195249
12/15/22 04:47 AM
12/15/22 04:47 AM
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In verse 40 we come to the time of the end. The final conflicts.
Treading of unfilled prophecy isn't easy. But as it is being fulfilled we will say, "This is it" God knew all along.

Daniel 11:40 ?At the time of the end the king of the South shall attack him; and the king of the North shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter the countries, overwhelm them, and pass through.
41 He shall also enter the Glorious Land, and many countries shall be overthrown; but these shall escape from his hand: Edom, Moab, and the prominent people of Ammon.
42 He shall stretch out his hand against the countries, and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
43 He shall have power over the treasures of gold and silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt; also the Libyans and Ethiopians shall follow at his heels.
44 But news from the east and the north shall trouble him; therefore he shall go out with great fury to destroy and annihilate many.
45 And he shall plant the tents of his palace between the seas and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him.

12:1 ?At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.




Much conjecture has taken place concerning these verse.
Is it a literal battle, or just a spiritual battle?
Everything else in chapter 11 has been about literal events The activities, battles, and treatment of God's people, can all be traced in history.

The king of the north has followed the line established in Daniel's other visions. Thus the king of the North would stay in that line up (though he probably has many allies), the papacy, all through history gets it's political strength by working through kings, and emperors.

Who is the king of the south? Daniel's other visions don't seem to have any king of the south. In Daniel 11 the king of the south always seems to be of the same type as the king of the North, but still with its own authority in governing, and opposing the Northern King.

First there were the Ptolemy vs Seleucids, (Both Greek kingdoms} Rome conquered the king of the south, so there was no king of the South, for awhile, |
The next king of the south then refers to the Vandals, a group of supposedly Christian, in Northern Africa, against Rome. Then the king of the south disappears again.
Finally we see the king of the south active again in these last 6 verses.
Today we see Muslims totally covering the lands of the first king of the South; all across northern Africa, Egypt, Arabia and more. There are considerable similarities between the Muslims and the Christians, yet these two are opposed to each other. Though the papacy is trying to bring them together and according to the prophecy Egypt, Libyans, Ethiopians will eventually changing sides to support the king of the north.

The messages from the east and the north (not the king of the north for the king of the north gets frantic when he hears their plan)s, bring interesting thoughts as to their identity, especially in light of alliances forming right now




Last edited by dedication; 12/15/22 05:00 AM.
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195278
12/26/22 02:50 PM
12/26/22 02:50 PM
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Don't stop now, as there must be more to this than that.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

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Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195288
12/29/22 02:47 AM
12/29/22 02:47 AM
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As we approach verse 40 -- this is where it gets interesting, yet because it is future we need to tread carefully, and not get too narrow in our thinking.

s it still literal, or does the chapter now switch to spiritual?
One thing -- it needs to fit in with the rest of the prophecies in Daniel and Revelation.


11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.


Who are the players here?

First who is the "him" against which the king of the south pushes? We know that the focus has been on the papacy which has been using kings to enforce it's policies for most of the last half of Daniel 11.
But in 1798 the papal power was stripped of it's armies (the kings wouldn't fight and enforce his policies any longer} The beast has been wounded and stripped of it's armies. Also the kings themselves lost their kingly power as well about the same time.

Some suggest this verse (Daniel 11:40) is speaking of three powers,
1. the (him)
2. the king of the south and
3. the king of the north.

Comparing this with Rev. 17 it's very possible the "him" is the same power as the harlot in Rev. 17, basically the religious side of the papal power. In Rev. 17 the papal power is depicted in two symbols.
The kings, (the horns) which supported the papal power previous to the time of the end are seen without their crowns in the first part of Rev. 17.
In Rev. 17:8 the beast that was, then was not, but is again, reappears.

In verses Daniel 11:38-39 prior to the time of the end, the antecedent "he" is honoring the god of forces, (countries ruled by kings with strong armies) and offers them financial support and arranges things to increase their power. This he did prior to the time of the end.

So Daniel 11:40 the "him" who is most likely typified as the harlot in Rev. 17 is facing big problems from the king of the south, and is able to mount the beast. In Rev. 17, the harlot is sitting on the beast ( symbolic of the restored position of the king of the north) once again the power of the beast -- the king of the north is once again "healed" and ready for battle.

With "kings" (especially American and Europen rulers) once again lending their armies to enforce papal policies and mandates the "he" and the king of the north are again one and the same power. The king of the north is "healed" and we have the whirlwind with chariots (airplanes) and horsemen ( tanks etc) and many ships enforcing the papal solutions, with power, on the world.

That healing, by the way, is almost completed as we read.



Now we just need to locate the king of the south.

I

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195305
01/04/23 03:53 AM
01/04/23 03:53 AM
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I'd like to go back to look again at verse 36 and onward.

Verses 31 to 35 of Daniel 11, definitely refer to the 1260 years of papal primacy, with very clear connections to Daniel 7 and 8's depiction of the same.. The attack was on God's covenant, God's sanctuary, and God's people..

Modern Adventist scholars tend to refer to vs. 36-39 as continuing to describe the papal power, suggesting these verse describe the attitude of the papal power, while the previous verses 31-35 describe the actions of the papal power.

But what if these verses are witnessing the papal's position to be the subject after 1798 .
In verse 11:35 We a have statement concerning time.
And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them and to purge them and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

We are living in the time of the end.

What happens in the "time of the end"?
Daniel 7:25 prophesied that:
He (the papal power) shall speak pompous word against the Most High, shall persecute the saints of the Most High, and shall intend to change times and law, then the saints shall be given into his hand for a time and times and half a time, (1260 day/years) BUT THE COURT SHALL BE SEATED, AND THEY SHALL TAKE AWAY HIS DOMINION.".

That dominion was taken away in 1798. The "beast" received a fatal wound, But it was the "beast" or political power of the papal church that was fatally wounded, the Catholic church continued, as a world wide church.
But even though the deadly wound was inflicted in 1798, even though the heavenly judgement began in 1844, "the time of the end" is not the end of time. We will see yet another Power arising; Revelation 11:7 says a "beast from the bottomless pit" arises after the two witnesses have prophesied for 1260 years. We also have the ultimate blasphemies proclaimed from papal chair.

n spite of the fact that papal primacy over all churches was taken away by Napoleon?s new laws, and the papacy's political influence was stripped away; the papacy made some of it's most blasphemies moves after 1798.

To counteract the terrible "wound" inflicted by the removal of their LEGAL AUTHORITY to control the masses of Europe, the papacy now seeks to regain authority by passing church dogmas proclaiming themselves equal to God Himself! Claiming the prerogatives of God, was nothing new for the papacy, but now it reached new heights. As papal power waned, papal pretensions increased.

Pope Pius IX's called for the convening of the First Vatican Council on December 8, 1869.
In July 18, 1870, the Council promulgated the dogma of Papal Infallibility.
The Council also asserted papal primacy. In July 1870, it issued the Dogmatic constitution Pastor aeternus, defining four doctrines of the Catholic faith: the apostolic primacy conferred on Peter, the perpetuity of this primacy in the Roman pontiffs, the meaning and power of the papal primacy, and Papal infallibility.

Obviously the government of Italy was not very impressed by this announcement for just two months later, on September 20, 1870, Victor Emmanuel II, King of Sardinia and later first King of a united Italy, captured Rome and took over the States of the Church, removing the last claims to political authority from the papacy.

To understand the background of this move here's a bit of history:
Napoleon had declared Italy a republic, and made himself the "king", the Church was stripped of its privileges, its property confiscated. And, even though it was propped up again by Napoleon, it was treated as just another church in his kingdom. With the collapse of the Napoleonic Empire in 1814, the states of the Italian peninsula were reconstituted under the domination of Austria. At the Congress of Vienna most of the papal states were given back to the papacy. The Austrians attempted to restore the old regime. Italy was divided into nine divisions, one of which was the Papal states. Pope Pius VII sought to re-establish the semi-feudal ecclesiastical rule the papacy had enjoyed prior to 1798, including the restoration of the Jesuits which had been suppressed in 1773.
Victor Emmanuel I of Piedmont (not the same as Victor Emmanuel II) returned in 1814 hoping to restore the old regime even to the return of exiled officials who were holding office before the upset in 1798. The Jesuits order was re-established in 1814, and was cordially welcomed as a means of getting people back under the authority of pope. Religious toleration was denied, secret police were used to squelch any "liberty, equality, fraternity" talk, and force was reasserted.

The result was A REVOLUTION-- the people had tasted freedom and they did not want the old regime back.

So yes, there was much unrest and fighting in the years that followed, as the pope and the Austrians tried to re-institute the old ways, and the people fought for their freedom. In 1832 Pope Pius IX wrote a scathing denunciation in which he denounced the separation of Church and state, denounced liberty of the press as abominable and detestable and demanded submission to the encyclical (Mirari Vos). He was fighting to regain his lost primacy! Put thankfully, the old ways did not succeed in re-establishing themselves. As we have seen, the very year the pope exalted himself, he lost the last vestige of temporal authority. The Italian troops marched into Rome in 1870 and the citizens voted, by a majority of 134,000 to 1500, for incorporation into the Italian Kingdom-- obviously the fear of excommunication no longer control the population.

Thus in spite of the papacy's blasphemous declarations of infallibility it was clearly confirmed that the LEGAL control of the papacy over the people was gone-- it had ended in 1798

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195306
01/04/23 05:51 PM
01/04/23 05:51 PM
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Thank you for that interesting piece of history.


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Daryl smile

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Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195307
01/05/23 04:18 AM
01/05/23 04:18 AM
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The thing that struck me while studying some of this is that the battle to re-establish the semi-feudal regime is not just history, it is coming back in full force. And with it the "wound" will be healed, control will be re-established.

The feudal system that brought the dark ages and held that darkness over the people for many centuries, was based on people existing in mainly three levels. Ecclesiastical, the Nobles, and the common peasants.
There were the warrior nobility who were given land when they fulfilled certain military obligations. There was also a whole network of dioceses ruled by arch bishops, bishops and abbots . Then there were the commoners who became the vassals, these were people who were given responsibility for a piece of land, under the control of the nobility or lord. The land was known as a fief. In exchange for the use of the fief and protection by the lord, the vassal would provide some sort of services to the lord. It was a system where the more elite nobility had considerable control over the lower classes, and often exploited them.

When the elite get the ownership of the land and all resources, the rest become servants and vassals, at the mercy of the controlling elite. It was part of the system during the middle ages, and many are the warnings that things are being contrived to move the population into that mode again.

The next verses in Daniel 11 show the king of the North fighting to establish control once again. The more I look into it, the broader this subject seems to be.

Daniel 11:39 Then shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.

Honoring the god of forces (vs 38) he divides the land into hierarchical systems to bring many under the rule of a few. From each of these divisions, according to their size and productivity, flows the profits "gains" into the hands of the few.

In Revelation 18 Babylon the Great is described as a great commercial system seeking gain trafficking in the souls of men.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195404
01/30/23 06:44 PM
01/30/23 06:44 PM
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In spite of the papacy's blasphemous declarations of infallibility it was clearly confirmed that the LEGAL control of the papacy over the people was gone-- it had ended in 1798

But in verse 40 things have changed. The papacy finds new military support, especially from the most powerful nation on earth.
They will seek to control, and move into what will look like defensive action at first, but will progress into aggressive action that finally resorts to massive violence.
But they will NOT win!

Jesus, Michael the leader of the whole heavenly hosts will stand up and deliver His people.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195424
02/05/23 07:34 PM
02/05/23 07:34 PM
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I've been hesitant in posting an interpretation of
Daniel 11:40 ?At the time of the end the king of the South shall attack him; and the king of the North shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter the countries, overwhelm them, and pass through.
41 He shall also enter the Glorious Land, and many countries shall be overthrown; but these shall escape from his hand: Edom, Moab, and the prominent people of Ammon.
42 He shall stretch out his hand against the countries, and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
43 He shall have power over the treasures of gold and silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt; also the Libyans and Ethiopians shall follow at his heels.
44 But news from the east and the north shall trouble him; therefore he shall go out with great fury to destroy and annihilate many.
45 And he shall plant the tents of his palace between the seas and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him.


1. There is Uriah Smith's interpretation based largely on the Turkish wars in 1870's, that view was questioned by James White, saying the king of the North is Papal, not Turkey. We tend to follow James White on that, while Smith's view largely faded into the background.

2. There is Louis Were's interpretation which has been quite popular amongst Adventists, he sees these last six verses as mainly symbolic, rather than the essentially literal translation given to the earlier verses in the chapter.
The symbols standing for thought groups.
King of the North = mainstream Christianity, led by Papacy.
King of the South = Atheism
Glorious Land = the Church which is keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
This end-time "king of the North" will burst into full power in response to a crises created by the king of the south, and will successfully counterattack the 'king of the South," verses 41-43, by countering the inwards of atheism into Christianity, but it doesn't stop there, the king of the North brings others under his power. (Ecumenical control)
Then it shows that he (king of the north) will enter the Holy Land, God's command keeping church, and set up his power in religious matters over the people of God, and also gain "power over the treasures of gold and silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt. (world economy?)" The commandment keeping Church will be placed under the mandates of the church and state. They will take to themselves the honor of dispensing God's precious gifts to whomever they deem deserve them.
The news from the east = the gospel of Christ's immanent return which angers the papacy and the multitudes, and they decide on the death decree for all dissenters,

3. The third view, emphasized by Tim Rosenberg, identifies the King of the South as the Moslems. Which happens to be the position that makes the most sense to me, and which I will outline in my next post.


Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195432
02/06/23 08:06 PM
02/06/23 08:06 PM
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The third view also makes the most sense to me.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

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John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

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Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195439
02/09/23 02:28 AM
02/09/23 02:28 AM
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Daniel 11:40 At the time of the end the king of the South shall attack him; and the king of the North shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter the countries, overwhelm them, and pass through.

One point stands out as fact. The king of the South does something that arouses the king of the North to act in whirlwind and military action not only against the king of the south but he will use the crises to gain considerable power over countries, overwhelming them with his power.

The king of the south makes his move in verse 40, and then seems to disappear (at least as a power doing any further aggressive action) for the remainder of the prophecy.
His main part in the fulfilling of the prophecy is releasing, or giving an excuse for the display of passion in the King of the North to try to overwhelm the world. The king of the South gives the king of the north the excuse to launch war, after which the king of the south, kind of falls into three categories. 1. the conquered (destroyed), 2. the submissive followers, 3. those who escape. The KS is the key that releases the power of the king of the North to go forth and overwhelm the KS and other countries.

The Kings of the NORTH and SOUTH aspect has been literal throughout Daniel 11. Rome conquered both the northern kingdom and the southern kingdom before the Christian era began. Rome lost the southern territories in the 7th century. The power that pushed Rome out of her southern territories, and conquered all the southern coast of the Mediterranean from Arabia clear across north Africa and even up into Spain, were the Muslims.
The Christian countries stretched across the northern coast of the Mediterranean from England to Turkey. While things shifted some, back and forth especially in the middle east. The north and south overall picture remained, Christians powers (Roman and Orthodox) to the north. Muslims powers generally to the south of the Christian powers.
It's hard to accept that a very short stint of Napoleon in Egypt, would over ride what has been the big picture of who's in the north and who's in the south for centuries.

We've identified the last great power throughout the prophecies as the papal powered Christianity, and the papacy with it's allies should still be the king of the north till the end.

From the 7th century onward the Islamic powers were the main force contending for power against the Christian nations. The northern papal armies led crusade after crusade against the Islamic power. Revelation's fifth and sixth trumpet has been understood by Christian scholars to represent the wars of Islamic forces pounding against the Christian nations. (Though some are denying this now it was recognized as such for many centuries)



Is Islam the king of the South?

A few years back, when radical Islamics were making news that horrified the world, and thousands of Muslim refugees were flooding into Europe and America, we heard a lot more about possible dangers to our countries. Since then the fears have been labelled as a phobia that needs to be dismissed as a mental problem.

Why is there hostility? Is it really just a phobia? Or are Muslims really scheming to convert the whole world by force? According to this website they are.

That website claims "The Koran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war against the infidels. ?Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them. Know that God is with the righteous.? (Koran 9:123) ?Fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem [of war].? (Koran 9: 5).

About 1/4 of earth's population identify themselves as Muslim!


In Europe there is considerable animosity against Muslims. Europeans haven't forgotten the history of hundreds of years and they are uneasy, which was augmented rather sharply by the radicalization of many native European Muslims. It also seems that European Muslims tend to cluster together more in little Muslim communities, thus looked upon with more suspicion as they are not integrate with their new society, while Muslims in America are more scattered and integrated.
Now of course, it would be wonderful if everyone could live together in peace and freedom without prejudice. That's the dream, but dreams can turn into nightmares.

I don't know what will trigger the king of the north to launch out with the full force of American and European powers to overwhelm the king of the south, and other countries.
It could be a number of things.
We just know that at first it will appear he is winning, but soon things start to go terribly wrong.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195443
02/09/23 06:56 AM
02/09/23 06:56 AM
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Mohammad married into a Catholic family. In fact, Walter Veith believes Islam was created by the Catholic Church in order to eradicate the Christians who were not under Papal control. If you examine a map of Muslim countries where Christianity was once the majority but is now almost extinct around the southern Mediterranean, it is easy to see that they were quite successful. Whatever the trigger for the great battle between the Kings of the North and South, it seems likely it will begin at the behest of the Papacy.

https://youtu.be/xZAmv1YASdw


"...I will not forget you.
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."

Isaiah 49:15-16
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195444
02/09/23 05:48 PM
02/09/23 05:48 PM
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Yes, ProdigalOne, I thing you are right. I've heard that before.


One thing the history books bare out --
Constantinople and the eastern Roman Empire would never have fallen to the Turks if the papal church hadn't systematically weaken it.

We think of the crusades being sent out to subdue the Muslims????
We really don't hear much about what those crusades did on their journey through Byzantine land.

History:
1054 the eastern church separated from the west. This "Great Schism" divided the visible Church into Western Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy.
The primary causes of the Schism were disputes over papal authority, the east didn't want to be under the pope's authority, and also rejected some of Rome's doctrines at that time, like purgatory, and celibacy for priests.

Now the first crusade in 1095 did manage to reclaim some land from the Turks, but the later ones were more about plundering the eastern Empire.
In 1147 the second crusade came through the eastern Roman Empire, plundering on their way.

Had the Christian countries united against the Turks, the Turks would not of had a chance, as it was the Eastern Empire suffered as much as the Turks under the crusades!

The great blow came with fourth crusade. April 13, 1204 instead of marching against the Turks, the crusade leaders responded to the bribes of a young man, Alexus, whose father had tied to usurp the Byzantine throne. Alexius, promised the crusaders money and if they would help him take the throne, that he would accept the authority of the POPE, and end the big schism. So the crusaders turned on Constantinople and conquered it, placing Alexius on the throne. But Alexius could not pay the bribe, so the crusaders pillaged and ravaged Constantinople. They seized both the city and the empire for themselves. They divided the empire in sections with different rulers, and placed a Latin emperor on the throne in Constantinople. Byzantium had lost its central government which had successfully resisted its enemies so many time before.

However, the Byzantine empire was not yet dead-- in 1261-1328 a strong leader, Michael VIII, began making headway in restoring the eastern empire. However, his advantage turned when Charles, a younger brother of Louis IX of France, and a devotee of the Papacy joined up with the deposed Latin Emperor Baldwin with the ambition of retaking Constantinople.
Pope Gregory X asked Michael VIII to negotiate a reunion of the two churches and he would restrain Charles's crusade against Constantinople. Michael agreed, but was not supported by the eastern church leaders.
Back in the west, Charles made fresh plans for a crusade against Byzantium, with the help of the Pope on the basis that Michael VIII had failed to achieve a genuine reunion of churches. But Sicily rose in revolt against Charles and Charles had to abandon his crusade.
Michael VIII was the last strong ruler, corruption in the Byzantine empire itself as well as the many attacks from all sides, had so weakened the empire that it became easy prey for the Turks to move in.

Why, all this history?

It reveals Papal policy. They wanted all Christianity under their control. During this time they also launched some of the bloodiest crusades against other Christians they termed as heretics, brutally killing thousands.

People believe it was the crusaders that held back the Turks from destroying eastern Christianity-- no, the crusaders helped RELEASE the restraint on the Turks so they could destroy eastern Christianity!.


The west then had to face the consequences, with the eastern empire no longer blocking the Turks advance, the Turks began to move through the Balkans, Hungary, Greece, and terrifying Italy itself. Actually that was an advantage for the Reformation. The papacy so busy fending off Turks they didn't have time to stop the Reformation.

Re: The King of the North [Re: dedication] #195449
02/12/23 08:09 AM
02/12/23 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by dedication
The thing that struck me while studying some of this is that the battle to re-establish the semi-feudal regime is not just history, it is coming back in full force. And with it the "wound" will be healed, control will be re-established.

The feudal system that brought the dark ages and held that darkness over the people for many centuries, was based on people existing in mainly three levels. Ecclesiastical, the Nobles, and the common peasants.
There were the warrior nobility who were given land when they fulfilled certain military obligations. There was also a whole network of dioceses ruled by arch bishops, bishops and abbots . Then there were the commoners who became the vassals, these were people who were given responsibility for a piece of land, under the control of the nobility or lord. The land was known as a fief. In exchange for the use of the fief and protection by the lord, the vassal would provide some sort of services to the lord. It was a system where the more elite nobility had considerable control over the lower classes, and often exploited them.

When the elite get the ownership of the land and all resources, the rest become servants and vassals, at the mercy of the controlling elite. It was part of the system during the middle ages, and many are the warnings that things are being contrived to move the population into that mode again.



I definitely agree, dedication! Efforts to return humanity to neo-feudalism have been underway for some time:

?You'll Own Nothing and Be Happy (originally You'll Own Nothing and You'll Be Happy) is a catchphrase originating from a 2016 essay by Danish MP Ida Auken which was included in the video "8 Predictions for the World in 2030" by the World Economic Forum. While the prediction was originally explained as "all products will become services," in has since been increasingly regarded as a harbinger of dystopian times when the human right to property would be abolished for the benefit of the few.? https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/youll-own-nothing-and-be-happy


The head of the WEF repeated this message more blatantly in July 2021

?You Will Own Nothing and Be Happy,? said Klaus Schwab, Founder and Executive Chairman of the World Economic Forum. As Anthony P. Mueller, a professor of economics, warns, ?The main thrust of the forum is global control. Free markets and individual choice do not stand as the top values, but state interventionism and collectivism. Individual liberty and private property are to disappear from this planet by 2030.? https://www.americaoutloud.com/you-will-own-nothing-and-be-happy-klaus-schwab/


One of the chief strategies for barring ?commoners? from land ownership is well underway. How can the middle class own land if there is no land for sale? The papal controlled investment firm Blackstone, the most powerful corporation on earth with more than $730 billion in assets under management, is a leader in the BTR juggernaut gaining momentum around the globe.

?If you?re not familiar with the concept of the build-to-rent (BTR) (rather than build-to-sell (BTS)) sector ? you should be.

Over the last couple of years, BTR has been tipped as one of the biggest commercial asset hits, and its growth in the Australian market over recent years has been rapid, to say the least.

Put simply, build-to-rent is the corporatisation of the rental market.

Properties that are designed and constructed to be used exclusively for rental accommodation.

The developments are owned by large institutional landlords who manage and control the tenancies.?
https://landcycleinvestor.fattail.com.au/youll-own-nothing-and-you-will-be-happy/


"...I will not forget you.
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."

Isaiah 49:15-16
Re: The King of the North [Re: dedication] #195468
02/17/23 05:34 PM
02/17/23 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by dedication
Daniel 11:40 At the time of the end the king of the South shall attack him; and the king of the North shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter the countries, overwhelm them, and pass through.

The Christian countries stretched across the northern coast of the Mediterranean from England to Turkey. While things shifted some, back and forth especially in the middle east. The north and south overall picture remained, Christians powers (Roman and Orthodox) to the north. Muslims powers generally to the south of the Christian powers.
It's hard to accept that a very short stint of Napoleon in Egypt, would over ride what has been the big picture of who's in the north and who's in the south for centuries.

Is Islam the king of the South?

Is Islam the king of the South?
We discussed this probability already in previous posts, but this time I'd like to look at it from a religious aspect.

It seems, as I visit various religious websites and it even appeared here in the past, that there is a strong (often hostile) movement urging people to deny the full Deity of Christ.

What about the Muslims, what do they believe on this matter concerning Jesus?

The big question -- Jesus asks of all? "Who do you say that I am?" We spend time figuring out who the king of the north is, and who the king of the south is, but the real question in all this is "Who do we say Jesus Christ Is".

According to "aboutislam.net" Muslims believe Jesus is coming again. Is it the same Jesus we believe is coming again?
Muslims hold the following beliefs about the second coming of Jesus:


  • *Jesus was a real historical person|
    * He was a great and blessed prophet of God, living in Israel two thousand years ago, preaching to his people..
    *He was the son of Mary, miraculously born, but not the Son of God.
    * His existence beginning at birth.
    *He was the Messiah (Masih) prophesied by the earlier Israelite prophets.
    *He did not die on a cross. It was made to appear as if He was crucified, but they did not kill Him, He ascended to Allah (4:157-158 Quran)
    *For them any concept of blood sacrifice by the Son of God to save sinful Man is abhorrent to reason, justice, and the very idea of an All-Merciful God.
    * They believe Jesus is alive and is coming again.
    *The return of Jesus is a sign of the end times.
    *When He comes, He will clear all the confusion prevailing in the world regarding his life and mission|
    *He will defeat the antichrist..
    *He will follow the law of God (Sharia law) as perfected by the final Prophet, Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).


Islam denies the most central doctrines of Christianity, namely the divinity and eternal existence of Jesus, the incarnation of God, the Word, in the flesh, and the substitutionary death, as well as the resurrection of Jesus on the Cross.
They deny that at the second coming Christ appears as King of kings. Instead they believe Jesus will come again a great and noble prophet come from heaven to set the records straight .
Basically their belief is that Jesus coming is to establish Islam on earth.

According to their teachings, He comes again to disprove that He is God with the Father, or that He is the Son of God, for both concepts are considered terrible blasphemy that must be extinguished.

Finally, an Islamic historian says that when Jesus returns, he will descend at the white minaret in Damascus, marry, have children, and die after forty years (Field Guide on the Islamic Apocalypse).

When people say Muslims believe in Jesus and his second coming.
It is not what that phrase sounds like and means at all.

Sources

https://www.islamreligion.com/articles/31/viewall/jesus-in-islam/
https://aboutislam.net/counseling/ask-about-islam/second-coming-jesus https://www.zwemercenter.com/guide/jesus-in-islam/

https://explore-islam.com/jesus-is-alive-and-is-coming-back-islam-confirms/

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195469
02/18/23 05:30 AM
02/18/23 05:30 AM
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?When Islam speaks of Jesus coming to ?break the crosses? it means to destroy the idea that Jesus died on the cross and rose again from the dead before ascending into heaven. The Islamic Jesus will also destroy all those who believe this and send them to hell.?

?Radical Islamists believe when Jesus comes again, he will kill all the Christians (except those who believe him to be merely God?s servant or messenger rather than the Son of God). There is also this notorious hadith:?

?Narrated ?Abdullah bin ?Umar: Allah?s Apostle said, ?You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, ?O ?Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.? ? So killing Jews and Christians becomes a way to prepare for the second coming of Jesus.?

https://lightforthelastdays.co.uk/articles/islam-issues/islam-the-2nd-coming-of-jesus/


"...I will not forget you.
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."

Isaiah 49:15-16
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195476
02/18/23 11:32 PM
02/18/23 11:32 PM
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Yes, there is animosity against the cross in Islam. The cross symbolizes the Son of God dying to redeem mankind from their sin. Animosity for the what took place at the cross, as well as against the symbol itself, begins with Muhammad. He ?had such a repugnance to the form of the cross that he broke everything brought into his house with its figure upon it"

As Sidney Griffith, author of The Church in the Shadow of the Mosque, put it:
Quote
?The cross and the icons publicly declared those very points of Christian faith which the Koran, in the Muslim view, explicitly denied: that Christ was the Son of God and that he died on the cross.? Thus ?the Christian practice of venerating the cross and the icons of Christ and the saints aroused the disdain of Muslims,? so that there was an ongoing ?campaign to erase the public symbols of Christianity, especially the previously ubiquitous sign of the cross.?
We hear reports every so often of attacks on churches and buildings in France, Italy, Germany as well as further east where the Christian religious icons are destroyed.

Now lets take this a step further.
In the earlier accounts of the king of the North and King of the South depiction, God's people were in the middle.
Where do we as a church stand on this issue?

But first what is the position of the king of the North concerning the cross and religious icons?
KN They believe Christ died on the cross and rose again.
KN The symbol of the cross is worn as a necklace and carried in other ways, and is rather highly venerated almost like a good luck charm. The churches in Catholicism and other denominations that follow Catholic traditions are filled with symbol replica's of Biblical things, statutes, crosses, etc. These things decorate their churches and church supplies, their homes, their schools.
KN Took the 2nd commandment right out of the Bible.


Where do Adventists stand on this issue?
While standing in awe and reverence at the thought of what happened at the cross, and worshipping the One Who died upon the cross, Adventists are not into wearing crosses or having crosses and statutes decorating their walls everywhere. Though we are seeing a bit more of this than was evident in years past.


HISTORY OF ICONOCLASTIC CONTROVERSY
Yes, Christians fought over this issue.

In the early church, the making and veneration of portraits of Christ, the saints, and relics, were consistently opposed. The use of icons nevertheless steadily gained in popularity, especially in the Roman Empire. In the 700's and 800's we read of emperors in the Byzantine Empire condemning them, then others encouraged them, then again they would be condemned. Rome, on the other hand encouraged them and basically won. Icons, statutes, crosses and other icons were everywhere, and they were venerated.

Reformers preached against icons. That nearly undid Luther, when the peasant revolt went about invading churches and smashing all the icons, Luther was blamed for the revolt, but he denounced the peasants as fanatical and supported the ruthless destruction of the peasants,
.
Early Puritans had no icons whatsoever in their worship buildings, or homes.

POSSIBLE FUTURE
What would happen IF Muslims in all these countries they now have a sizable representation, got a message the time had come to "break the cross" and bring the world into Islamic control? and they believed it was to literally break crosses, in churches, in buildings, in all public places.
Atheists would probably support them in this, as they too are "offended" by Christian symbols.

In the past, Rome fought to promote and push iconoclasm. Would they do less now?
Would all Christendom support them, to defend Christendom? Could it unite with other conflicts and snowball

Remember we are still looking for the trigger. What is the king of the south going to do that will give the king of the north the excuse to go to war and over run many countries.
(I have a feeling many things will fit into the picture, a lot of things will snowball to escalate into final crises, but the above could well be a key

Re: The King of the North [Re: dedication] #195533
03/04/23 09:55 AM
03/04/23 09:55 AM
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Salvation --
Scripture tells us
Acts 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him does this man stand here before you whole.
4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


So, a religion that fights against the cross of Christ (whose aim to "break the cross") and which denies the Divinity of Christ, denies His death on the cross for our salvation, and denies that only in Jesus Christ can salvation be found, is fighting against the only means of Salvation.

I think we have shown that the Muslim religion has that agenda.
They have a belief in their version of a historical "Jesus" who is seriously against and opposed to the Savior Jesus Christ.

The people who have taken over the realms of the Old Testament king of the South (Arabia, Egypt, Northern Africa) are Islamic (Muslims). The fact that they spread far further than that, only makes them more powerful.

KING OF THE SOUTH = Islamic (Muslims)
King of the South denies Christ's divinity and denies Him as the only means of salvation.

KING OF THE NORTH = Papal Led Christianity
King of the north has set himself in the place of Christ, and claims to offer salvation through their sacraments, which imitate (counterfeit) the work of Christ

The battle in the end, is over Salvation in Christ Alone and God's people are caught in the middle of these two opposing forces.


Some have likened this battle to the Exodus of Israel from Egypt.
Egypt of course would symbolize the King of the South and his territories.

The DECEPTIVE issue here is that the King of the North, comes in the disguise of the Lord.
He comes in the disguise of the great liberator.


The king of the north is revealed in Revelation.
There we see Babylon. We concluded from Biblical information that the king takes upon himself the role of God, for in Revelation 13:4,8 it says everyone, except those in the book of life, will be worshipping at Babylon's shrine. (And 2 Thess.2:4 tells us he exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.)

In Revelation the unholy trinity formed by the dragon, the beast from the sea, and the beast from the earth constitute Babylon and attempt to usurp the role of God on earth (Rev. 12-14). Babylon, like the king of the north, unifies the kings of the earth (Rev. 16:13).
Daniel already told us this king of the north usurped Christ's "daily" ministry, and tried to throw the place of the heavenly sanctuary, where Christ's "daily ministry" was taking place, down to this earth (where he set up his own counterfeit priestly ministry) . (Daniel 8:11, 11:31)

The King of the South: In early verses of Daniel 11 it refers to the king of the south as Egypt. The symbol of Egypt is a predominantly negative biblical symbol. They often used the serpent as a symbol. It is a land whose king has no respect for the Lord and openly challenges Him (Ex. 5:2). Yet Egypt was not really atheistic, they worshipped their counterfeit gods. The king of Egypt challenged the true God.
Remember it is Jesus Christ, that Lucifer challenged in Heaven. It was the Divine prerogatives of the Son of God, Michael, Who commanded all the angels as the Captain of the Hosts, that roused the unreasonable and disastrous jealousy in Lucifer, which led to the war in the first place. (Rev. 12:7)

While the king of the north is interested in occupying the place of God, by usurping Christ's role in salvation, the king of the south simply denies Christ's role in salvation altogether. It could easily include people for whom the biblical concept of salvation is unnecessary as well. People who still believe in what they call the "Force" but sense no need for salvation nor the cross.

The king of the north will overcome them when the wound inflicted on the beast from the sea is healed (Rev. 13:3). The serious deception here, is that what appears to be good will turn out to be what it really is: an attempt to usurp God?s power on earth.

We can find further parallels for Daniel 11:40-45 and the king of the north in Revelation under the symbol of Babylon.

The good news in all this for us, is that in both Daniel and Revelation God and His people are victorious.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195545
03/08/23 09:27 AM
03/08/23 09:27 AM
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Where is the "Glorious Land" ?

Daniel 11:41 He shall enter also into the glorious land
11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain;


Other references to this glorious land:

Daniel 8:9 "And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land." (KJV)

Daniel 11:16 " But he who comes against him shall do as he wills, and none shall stand before him. And he shall stand in the glorious land, with destruction in his hand.

Ez. 20:6,15 On that day I swore to them that I would bring them out of the land of Egypt into a land that I had searched out for them, a land flowing with milk and honey, the most glorious of all lands.


In all the other references the "glorious land" and "glorious holy mountain" depict Jerusalem and the land around it.
Israelites would definitely have understood it as such.

Some commentators, however, switch in these last verses 11:41,45 to a spiritual symbolic meaning of "glorious land" as being the church.
The king of the north being identified as the combined papal led Christian armies, it doesn't really make sense to say the Glorious land is the church. Of course some say the "glorious land" is Sabbath keepers all over the world.

However, since we identify the glorious land in both Daniel 8:9. and 11:16 as the literal place over there in Palestine, it seems logical to identify it as such in these last verses of Daniel 11, as Jerusalem or Palestine as well.

Now consider what one of the greatest last day deception is going to be.

Quote
" In the last days he (Satan) will appear in such a manner as to make men believe him to be Christ come the second time into the world. He will indeed transform himself into an angel of light. But while he will bear the appearance of Christ in every particular, so far as mere appearance goes, it will deceive none but those who, like Pharaoh, are seeking to resist the truth. Testimonies for the Church 5:698 (1889).
The glory that surrounds him is unsurpassed by anything that mortal eyes have yet beheld. The shout of triumph rings out upon the air: ?Christ has come! Christ has come!? LDE 163


People (Christians, Muslims, Jews and others)
Are all expecting Messiah to appear and set up in Jerusalem.

Yet it is the king of the north who enters the glorious land in verse 41. The king of the North is seeking world control and works to achieve that in the next verses. It's not till verse 45 that he sets up his tents in Jerusalem (the tabernacles of his palace). In Exodus the tabernacle is seen as a tented palace for Israel?s divine king, with a special "most holy place" where the shekinah glory appeared. But here in Daniel we see the king of the north, the counterfeit setting up the tabernacle of his palace, and a glorious, supernatural bright shining being, who claims to be Jesus joins them. And all the people shout "Christ has Come". People's own senses will tell them that this is Christ, confirmed by miracles. BUT Remember in the very next verse, it will come to their end.

For the REAL Christ stands up!


Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195550
03/11/23 07:28 PM
03/11/23 07:28 PM
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I just finished watching a Q&A panel from the Daniel 11 Conference at Village SDA Church - March 9th-11th 2023, that may have some pertinent points for this thread. So much knowledge and wisdom shared with an amazingly humble spirit. Differing views were presented and amicably discussed, and some minds were even changed. https://www.youtube.com/live/kP5sGFeJa8c?feature=share


"...I will not forget you.
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."

Isaiah 49:15-16
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195551
03/11/23 07:44 PM
03/11/23 07:44 PM
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I found Pastor Tim Roosenberg?s presentation concerning the possibility that the King of the South, Daniel 11:40, is actually a coalition of Islamic and Atheistic powers to be enlightening.

Pastor Roosenberg?s presentation begins at the 2:05 mark. https://www.youtube.com/live/Lr6wLJBt9n8?feature=share


"...I will not forget you.
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."

Isaiah 49:15-16
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195552
03/11/23 07:55 PM
03/11/23 07:55 PM
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Are we witnessing the coalescence of the King of the South alliance: Islamic nations/Russia/China, that will face off against the King of the North: Papacy/USA/NATO?

?Saudi Arabia, long a US partner, appears to be shaking off its commitment to a unipolar US world. It says a lot about how Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman conducts foreign policy as the kingdom brings China and Iran closer, in pursuit of security outside traditional Western allies. ?MBS has a preference for an alternative world order that is dominated by the likes of Xi and [Russian President Vladimir] Putin,? says Khalid Al-Jabri, a Saudi entrepreneur and physician. ?Take away the grievances between the Saudi and the Iranian regimes, and they are actually more alike than they?re different.? https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/3/10/23634464/deal-saudi-arabia-iran-china-explained


"...I will not forget you.
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."

Isaiah 49:15-16
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195554
03/12/23 01:23 PM
03/12/23 01:23 PM
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Very interesting information, Prodigal. Spend several hours listening yesterday to the various presentations, yes they were amicably, presenting DIFFERING views, but it was interesting to hear the differing logic they used to support their views.

Yes, this one especially was interesting
Pastor Roosenberg's presentation beginning at the 2:05:38 mark. https://www.youtube.com/live/Lr6wLJBt9n8?feature=share

His view puts a lot more meaning showing a bigger picture of the battle being fought throughout history, while most of the others were more interested in identifying every detail. (Though the details need to fit the picture)

The biggest challenge is how to relate this vision to understanding more about the great battle being fought against Jesus Christ, and His redemption plan for the inhabitants of the earth.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195611
03/31/23 09:07 PM
03/31/23 09:07 PM
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If the king of the south is composed of Islam, Russia, China and Atheism combined.
If the king of the north is composed of the the papacy, linked with the western pseudo Christian nations
what would that mean?

If that erupted into full fledged war, the earth would be decimated .

How much of this is a spiritual battle (which I believe plays a huge part) The king of the north is the papacy working with the transformed into his image lamb like beast America, and the ten horns of Europe.
How much is actual war? (the whirlwind, horsemen, chariots and ships sound like actual war)
How much is diplomacy and deception? (power over treasures, nations falling into step, sounds like diplomacy and coercion)

We've always kind of dismissed Russia and China as players in this prophecy. Yet, we are told in spirit of prophecy that the last battle will involve the whole world.




So a possible idea (and it's just an idea, nothing more)
Just my own imagination putting things together that may, or may not fit.

The Islamic powers (like Saudi Arabia and others) ease away from their links with America and Europe and start looking to China and Russia instead.
We've had a couple wars already where America bombs eastern countries, and keeping control of oil was a factor in those wars. So this issue is something in the news now, could trigger something big.

CNN reports just a week ago
Quote
China?s growing role in the Middle East of late has alarmed Washington. This month alone, Beijing mediated a landmark agreement between archfoes Iran and Saudi Arabia that could help significantly ease Middle East tensions. Saudi Arabia also significantly strengthened its energy ties with China by announcing on Monday a $3.6 billion deal to buy 10% of China?s Rongsheng Petrochemical, which would see it supply 480,000 barrels per day of crude oil to the company....


Europe and America are losing their grip on oil rich middle east countries. And what with Green Climate lobbying shutting down so much of Canadian, USA and European oil production, just one hard winter will show how much the whole economy is built on oil, and they find themselves woe fully short. Sunday laws, which are already suggested, will come in to limit travel and shopping, and the use of gas and oil, They will be enforced with penalties and fines. But all those laws don't solve the oil crises, civilization is crashing without access to oil.

How can the western countries who sided with the king of the North get any oil when the middle east (Islamic countries) have moved their trade to deal with China and Russia, not so much with America and Europe. It won't take too much for an excuse to attack the middle east to bring those countries back and gain control of the "treasured" oil and riches of the middle east, Egypt and others. There will be the initial "whirlwind". A quick war. Next the papacy, as the big peace maker uses diplomacy to bring them all around. While some surrendered during the whirlwind war, many of the Islamic countries in the area will be won over by diplomacy .

But China and Russia, though busy with their own affairs during the initial whirl wind take over, now rise to revenge the King of the North and defend, (try to liberate) their new allies in the middle east.

Are they the NEWS FROM THE EAST those big countries, with their MWD sending their armies --
At this point all hell breaks out on earth. If Russia or China send out a few nukes. The king of the North will go out to destroy many. We can count on that! The king of the north wins, BUT the after math is terrible. Whole cities were laid flat. People are in terrible physical shape. In times of extreme trouble people turn to religion. Sunday laws at this point are no longer just to stop producing carbon dioxide, now they are enforced in an attempt to appease God and ask God to stop the terror. The papacy and the evangelicals, and Jews implement the whole Jerusalem idea. And things get under way, preparing for the coming Messiah as they believe he will appear in Jerusalem, and a great shining, supernatural being appears claiming to be Jesus, sounding like Jesus. People think it is Jesus. He even manages to heal some of the physical health issues. But then tells them it's only when they all start worshipping on Sunday will the problem be solved.
Persecution begins in deadly earnest. When some refuse, the answer is to eliminate them.
But then Jesus stands up to deliver His people.

Could it come about like that???

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195612
04/01/23 08:58 AM
04/01/23 08:58 AM
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Well....according to the Bible, the king of the South was Egypt and is still Egypt. I see no place in the Bible that it was ever changed to some "ism".

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195613
04/02/23 08:45 AM
04/02/23 08:45 AM
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Hi Daylily, good to see you posting!

Actually I don't see the Bible saying the King of the South is Egypt.
What it is saying is the King of the South is the ruler of the lands south of Jerusalem.

Daniel 11 starts with the kings of Persian Empire, then moves to the great king, which most scholars agree is Alexander the Great from Greece, who conquered lands from Greece all the way to India and down into northern Africa. But he died young, and his kingdom was divided into four parts. These four Grecian parts fought with each other each trying to get control of the whole empire.

In history one of these divisions were the Ptolemies, and their leader is called the ?king of the South?, the rulers of this kingdom based their headquarters in a city built by Alexander in the Egyptian delta, so yes, Egypt was under their domain.
The division of Alexander's empire that was to the north of Jerusalem was Syria, whose kings were called the Seleucids. The Seleucid leader was called the ?king of the North?.
Yet both of these "kings" or kingdoms covered more territory than their headquarters.

Ptolemy (the king of the south) was a Macedonian, not an Egyptian. He was a close friend of Alexander the Great, who build the city of Alexandria, which became the Ptolemaic capital. The Ptolemaic kingdom was a Hellenistic, Greek kingdom and a center of Hellenistic culture and learning, which adopted some outward trappings of Egyptian culture. The rulers were of Greek linage, the natives could only hold lower positions. Alexandria was a huge trade center and held the key to Mediterranean trade and held control of coastal Arabian and eastern north Africa coastal centers. Greek was the main language of this kingdom, even after Rome conquered them. Greek remained the language of the upper classes right up to the time of the Muslim conquest in 641 AD.

The king of the south was not Egypt, the king of the South was a foreign ruler over Egypt and coastal areas both to the east and west of Egypt.

So who rules Egypt and controls the trade in those areas now?
Islamic Arabs conquered Egypt, and while Egyptians claim their ancestry is Egyptian, they speak the Arabian language and support the Islamic religion.

That too me means the ruling power is the Islamic powers in the middle east. -- they cover all the area the Ptolemies (king of the south) covered back in 300 BC. (and a whole lot more)



Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195617
04/02/23 08:17 PM
04/02/23 08:17 PM
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Dan 11:7-8 tells us where the king of the South was from.

The king of the South was whoever was ruling Egypt. that&#347; what made him the king of the South. It wasn't the particular individual, it was the fact that he was ruling the south, Egypt. The thing that remained constant was that the person was ruling the south, not where he was from. If in the last days, the king of the south doesn't have to be a king or be from the south, then the two defining characteristic don't matter. Those are the only two defining characteristics. If we can substitute some religion for the king of the south and substitute no particular location at all for the south, the we can make the king of the south anything we want. Of course, the ruler of Egypt is now a Muslim. So is the king of the North, from Turkey.

The Seleucids were also Hellenistic.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195618
04/03/23 05:00 PM
04/03/23 05:00 PM
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I think we are pretty much in agreement here.

I agree the King of the South is the ruling power over the lands south of Jerusalem.
Possible a disagreement is that I see this as more than just Egypt, though Egypt (Alexandra) was the Ptolemies headquarters, their domain extended over more than just Egypt.
But yes in the first part of Daniel 11 -- the king of the south's domain was SOUTH of Jerusalem (even including Jerusalem for most of those years)

And yes, it's not the country itself -- it's the ruling power over the south., that is the king of the south.

SELEUCIDS
And yes, the Seleucids were another powerful division of the Hellenistic Greek empire.
Their headquarters were in Syria, Antioch being their main capital, and they also controlled what used to be Babylon, their domain reaching to the river Indus. Babylon is mentioned in scripture as being "from the north" . (Ezekiel 26:7)
Media Persia is also mentioned in scripture as being "from the north" (Jeremiah 50:9) Scripture is full of warnings that destruction was coming upon God's people from the north.
Seleucid rulers were described as kings in Babylonia in history.
They Seleucids also had dominion over Jerusalem for a few years when Antiochus III wrested it away from the Ptolemies. This lasted until his son Antiochus Epiphanies lost Judea to the Jewish Maccabees, who in turn lost their brief independence to Rome..
The term "Babylon" we find in Revelation as describing the last papal led religious/political power.

KING OF SOUTH
History -- the Ptolemies were overthrown by Rome, who held control of the area for more than seven centuries. (There was no king of the south during that time, as the area was under the control of the north)
Around 639 to 646 AD Muslim armies under the Rashidun Caliphate conquered the whole area which once belonged to the Ptolemies. The Arabs founded the capital of Egypt called Fustat, which was later burned down during the Crusades. Cairo was later built in the year 986 AD to grow to become the largest and richest city in the Arab caliphate. Though there were revolts and battles, Egypt remained under the control of a Muslim Caliphate for centuries. During the 1800's there was a struggle to get some political independence from the Ulama. There has also been European interventions.
However, the influence of high ranking Muslims is still in control in Egypt, and Egypt has been moving back under the control of the Ulama, who, though more moderate than some other Islamic countries are still updating national laws to reflect Islamic teachings. Church and state are not separate. Islam is the state religion.
And if one looks at the map depicting countries where Islamic teachings highly influence their political laws and culture, we find the regions are heavily into the lands of the south. That's where they originated, (in Saudi Arabia, south of Jerusalem) and that's where they spread. Though they have also spread into territories of the north, yet the king of the north, though temporarily has only limited influence in the eastern territories is still alive and ambitious and considers enlarging his influence in those lands that were his

That's all part of Daniel 11 -- The king of the north's last almost successful campaign to get control, after all, Rome once ruled the world, and that is their aim (and the aim of the south as well) . And which ever one gets that control will impose their religion,




Last edited by dedication; 04/04/23 03:13 PM.
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195619
04/03/23 05:55 PM
04/03/23 05:55 PM
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Daylily wrote: "The Seleucids were also Hellenistic."

That's a very important point!
The king of the north and south had some pretty strong similarities!
So often people insist they have to be total opposites.

While both the Seleucids and Ptolemies were Greek Hellenist kingdoms, one difference between the two, was that even though they both embraced the Greek pantheistic religion, the Ptolemies added Egyptian concepts to their religious ideas
The Seleucids, on the other hand added Babylonian concepts.

Today, both the king of the north and south embrace a monotheistic religion.
The king of the south follows the line of Hagar the Egyptian slave and her son Ishmael.
The king of the north follows the early Christian line in Syria (Antioch), but added Babylonian religious ideas.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195627
04/07/23 07:40 AM
04/07/23 07:40 AM
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I'm not ignoring you! Just very, very busy getting ready for a Cantata Sabbath. I'm in the choir and that last week before the event is very hectic. I will reply soon. smile

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195628
04/07/23 02:22 PM
04/07/23 02:22 PM
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Enjoy the cantata! I was once choir director and with all the practicing and then presenting the April Cantata, the scenes of Christ's last week, death and resurrection were so vividly implanted in my mind. It's a great ministry that reaches people, some of whom rarely hear this message at any other time.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195664
04/13/23 09:43 AM
04/13/23 09:43 AM
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The Cantata turned out well. Our little church was packed . Our average weekly attendance is around 45 and we had over 100 Sabbath, with at least 18 non-SDAs. This was our third cantata, having previously done one last Easter and one at Christmas.

It does cover more that just Egypt but it has to be specifically Egypt so as to be recognizable as an important end time event. If it involves more than Egypt, how much more? On the one hand it does involve more than Egypt because it has allies and on the other hand if the KOS is not specific and identifiable, we won't know when it happens. We need to know when this prophecy has been fulfilled.

I think we might not agree on the KON. I believe that the Papacy is the he and him in this prophecy. The northern Seulucid empire was huge but it ended up shrinking over time to mainly cover what is now Turkey because Turkey controls the area of Antioch, which was the former capital of that Empire. I believe that is the KON.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195665
04/13/23 08:29 PM
04/13/23 08:29 PM
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Glad the Cantata went well. Yes, it does draw in a lot of people that often don't attend church except on these occasions! like

As to the KOS and KON, from your comments I assume you basically follow the direction of Uriah Smith's interpretation as being the correct one.
There are a number of Adventists that see it that way.

Of course not all agree. Even James White, contemporary to Uriah, had problems with it.

So the main point here sort revolves around this phrase:
11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him

The idea here is that there are actually three players involved.
According to Uriah -- the "he or him" is somehow France, the KON is a power from the former Seleucid territory, (Turkey) and the KOS is Egypt.

Now, you do believe the "HE" or him, is the papacy, not France.
So here we do have agreement. As I too believe the "HIM" is the papal power system.

So the whole end really doesn't change that much.
You would just have the KON as the military force in verse 40. With both the KOS (Moslem Egypt) and KON (Muslim Syria/Turkey) rising up against the HIM (Papal Christian coalition)

Now this "HE" which Daniel does not identify by name (which we recognize as the Papal powers) has been the active power all the way through from vs. 16 to right up to vs. 40.

As a pronoun the "he" in all those should refer back to the last identified power, but obviously the Seleucid king of the north, is not the "he" in all these verses.


So the "He, or HIM" would not be just a pronoun but the "identifying label" of another power, not referring back to any identified precedent. For it is only and just the "he" that was in operation from verse 16 to verse 40.
In verse 16 we first read of this "HE" who comes and who "will do as HE wills" and this HE takes the Promised land (vs 16), consumes it and then destroys it like a flood, and even kills the Prince of Covenant, Jesus in (vs 21). So the "he" here is Rome, As we move on through Daniel 11 it becomes pretty convincing that this "HE" is papal Rome.


And in the end it's still the HE that over runs the countries, sets his tabernacles in the holy mountain and comes to his end.

If the HE is NOT a pronoun for the Seleucid King of the North in verses 16 -21, why would anyone think HE is a pronoun for the king of the North in verses 41-45?

So it seems logical to still read the verse like this, now assuming the KON is the resurrection of a Seleucid king in the form of Turkey.


11:39 Thus shall he (papal powers) do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he (papal power) shall acknowledge [and] increase with glory: and he (papal power) shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.

11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south
(Egypt) push at him (irritate the papal coalition): and the king of the north (Seleucids from Turkey) shall come against him (the papal powers) like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; (the papal Christian coalition is attacked by Muslims from the north and the south) and he (the Papal Christian coalition) shall enter into the countries, (subdue them both) and shall overflow and pass over.

11:41 He
(the papal power) shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, [even] Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. (Moab, Ammon, and Edom, located in Jordan, will probably make a peace treaty with the papal powers)

11:42 He (the papal Christian Coalition) shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.

11:43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians [shall be] at his steps.



Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195666
04/14/23 03:29 AM
04/14/23 03:29 AM
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For myself,
I believe the unidentified pronoun "he" in verses 16 to 39, always points back to the last identification -- namely the title, "king of the North", way back in verse 15. The title King of the North moves on to the next strong northern power (not necessarily the exact geographic site) that wars against God's saints, even though the author, Daniel, doesn't repeat that title again till verse 40.

The title, king of the south, likewise moves on to the next strong southern power that wars against God's saints.
But we see in the early verses of Daniel 11 when the KON conquers some of the KOS's territory, he is not called the KOS. And when the KOS conquers some of the KON's territory, he is not called the KON, simply because the two kingdoms are still very much in existence, though they may have lost territory to the other.

In this way of thinking, the pronouns point back to last identified title.

So I read verse 40
11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south (the southern Muslim power which includes Egypt) push at him (the "him" refers back to the papal power that was being described in the previous verses):

But the papacy has achieved politically and military. (Just like Revelation 17 shows a combination of powers to form the last papal led charge.
The king of the north (is still the "he" or papacy yet he has changed into a formidable power with massive political and military backing thanks to countries like America) thus he can come against him (the king of the south) like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships;
The papal Christian coalition is attacked by Muslims from the south and he the Papal Christian coalition will fight back and shall enter into the countries, (subdue them) and shall overflow and pass over.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195700
04/20/23 10:00 AM
04/20/23 10:00 AM
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Keep going.

Don't stop here.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195718
04/24/23 04:22 PM
04/24/23 04:22 PM
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The king of the North is always that Babylonian Power revealed in Daniel.

Babylon is the head, Media Persia supplied the arms (and bear feet) to carry it on, Greece was the body that developed all the philosophies and traditions and combined them into both the Jewish religion and Christianity. Rome was the power that enforced them upon the world. The papacy carried it all forward in the name of Christ even though Rome was divided, the papacy was the clay power that held the Roman pieces together.

The Greek Seleucids (king of the north) were called kings of Babylonia. They ruled all of Babylonia in the east as well as Syria and parts of Turkey.

The apostles seemed to have called Rome, by the code name of Babylon! (See 1 Peter 5:13)

And revelation calls the last religious/political power Babylon.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #197102
12/02/23 09:34 AM
12/02/23 09:34 AM
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Here is another good study on this I came across...

"What is true of God's relation with man in history also holds for His relation with man in prophecy. In the prophecies of Daniel God projects an active divine participation in human affairs from the time of His encounter with the prophet, through all the seeming disorder created by human attempts to gain power and force the subservience of others, until Michael at last stands up and brings such efforts to an unsuccessful conclusion. God's act of initially willing such a result did not "destroy human freedom; rather it set the context in which man's freedom would appear and mature, and what its ultimate 2 destiny would be." Thus, prophecy is an expression, not of coercion, but of the divine will to be involved with and close to mankind. It is the natural counterpart of God's involvement in human history, from which He is never absent. Therefore, if God is constantly with His people in history one would expect the fact to be reflected in prophecy, and in the nature of prophecy's fulfillment generally. To say merely that prophecy exists and is capable of accurate fulfillment is not enough. Different parts of Daniel's prophecy, in some facet of their bearing on the plan of salvation, have been in process of fulfillment? in their primary significance? in every era of history since Daniel.


The broader context of God's ongoing involvement with mankind in history and in prophecy suggests that it would be incongruous to apply Dan 11:2-35 to one very limited span of past time in myopically close detail, and then to apply the remaining verses to another very limited span of future time.1 It might be felt that the history of the mid-second century B.C. is so accurately described in Dan II that no other serious historical explanation is available? that history demands the former island of fulfillment and belief demands the latter. This is not the case, and it is a point to be made with emphasis. An alternative does exist, and it is one that corresponds to the breadth and level of significance one might expect from an inspired perspective on history. Details of minor importance are not allowed to 2 take on major importance in the prophet's thinking. A corollary is that items of major importance are given major emphasis. And here is a matter that demands the most careful attention. A condensed summary of history, inspired by the God who actively works in history to save mankind, would be expected to contain at least some reference to the Saviour, through whom that work is effected. Indeed, it could be expected that such an analysis of history would revolve directly around the Savior's activity and be saturated with implications concerning Him. This is in fact the case. In Dan 11:22, at the very center of a narrative spanning all of Dan 10-12, is a reference to Christ on the cross as the "prince of the covenant"? swept away, along with an overwhelming army of others, through a process of judicial murder, on falsified charges of disloyalty to Caesar.1 This reference to Christ in 11:22 is pivotal to the entire narrative which surrounds it, and to our discussion of that narrative. It takes more than human insight to recognize the significance of Christ's life, or His place in human history. When Peter stated, "'you are the Christ, the Son of the living God[,] Jesus replied, 'Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by 2 man, but by my Father in heaven.'" In the same way, Daniel's references to Christ match Him too closely to have been merely the product of human speculation.3 More than any scholarly argument the accuracy of these references confirms the inspiration of his prophecies....


Definition of Terms "North and "South"

The most conspicuous and frequently recurring of the technical terms used in Dan 11 are "king of the North" and "king of the South."

In each section where the terms occur North and South are rival factions within a larger single entity. Thus in w . 5-15 North is Seleucid Syria and South is Ptolemaic Egypt, but both were Greek. In w . 23-28 North is represented by Octavian based in Rome and South by Mark Antony based in Egypt, but both men were Romans. In w . 29-45 the problem is more complex, but the same principle continues to apply. The exilic context Elsewhere in Scripture North and South do not represent rival factions of any identifiable larger entity. Such a relationship is unique to Dan 11. North in the exilic prophets is used to refer to oppressive powers in general ? especially Babylon, but also Assyria. Occasionally the northern oppressor comes against Babylon rather than a from within it. Egypt, on the other hand, is consistently depicted as a country that holds out the false prospect of security as an alternative to seeking help from God.3 In all of this North and South are poised for conflict, and so the theme of superpowers engaged in an ongoing rivalry that must inevitably involve God's people is consistent with Daniel's usage. A second significance associated with Egypt is based on Exodus 5:2. Here Egypt in the person of Pharaoh refuses to recognize Yahweh's existence or authority: "Pharaoh said, 'Who is the Lord, that I should obey him and let Israel go? T do not know the Lord and I will not let Israel go.'" Pharaoh's open, intelligent denial of and opposition to the true God may be taken as an appropriate symbol for such opposition generally. Atheism would be one extreme form of such an attitude. Notice that if a long span of time is involved m the prophecy of Dan. 11, which is a fundamental claim of the historicist interpretation,6 it will be necessary for the terms "North" and "South" to apply during more than one era of history. Since no single world empire was dominant during the entire course of the prophecy, under this model, the terms must be taken to have different historical referents during different periods.^- And one must expect changes that go beyond the matter of one nation following another in time. As the prophecy of Dan 11 passes 2 3 into the Christian centuries God's people are no longer localized. Thus, while North and South remain agents of opposition, they begin to take less of their significance from the compass and more from the roles established for them in the exilic prophets and elsewhere in 4 Scripture, as cited above. The usage of the exilic prophets? which describe events that Daniel himself lived through? remains a consideration of the greatest importance in determining the extra-geographical significance of North and South in Dan 11."



Then he goes into his study on Daniel 11, with Ptolemaic Egypt facing Seleucid Syria in verses 5-15, Octavian (later Caesar Augustus) and Mark Antony in verses 23-28, and then symbolic of the direction from which oppressive powers come, Spiritual "Babylon/Egypt" in verses 29-45, which he considers merge against Gods people....

https://digitalcommons.andrews.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1008&context=theses

Last edited by Rick H; 12/02/23 10:08 AM.
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