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Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188001
12/09/18 12:09 AM
12/09/18 12:09 AM
Rick H  Offline OP
Group: Admin Team
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,157
Florida, USA
It is the same as the other chapters of Daniel, it is the Papacy. I will see what I can find and post...

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188006
12/09/18 06:38 AM
12/09/18 06:38 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Following the pattern in Daniel's other prophecies, the king of the North in the last verses of Daniel 11, is papal led political Christianity. The verses 31-36 are about the medieval papacy, and we know it will again come to power and repeat it's tyranny and persecution for a short time.
The papacy's political enforcement of religion was always connected with "kings" and state rulers. It was when church and state were separated that the papal beast received it's mortal wound. The papacy as a church leader was restored within a year or so, but the political power was removed.

It's when church and state again unite that wound will be fully healed and terrible persecution will begin again. Revelation 13 shows us who the main "king" or "state power" will be to enforce the papal agenda!

I tend to favor the view that the king of the south (after verse 21) is Islam. Islam rose to power shortly after the papacy rose to political power (538 papacy - 630 Islam)-- and it lost it's power shortly after the papacy lost it's political power (1789 papacy -- 1841 Islam). Now we see both rising again.

Daniel 11 deals with real political powers, and I don't think it changes in the last verses into mere ideologies as some spiritual them.
-- Also, those last verses mention geographical places, and it seems all the focus on old Jerusalem and the popular prophetic interpretations concerning the temple and a Messiah's appearing there, isn't just co-incidence, but a strategy of deception inspired by powers beyond the human realm that will sweep the world into deception as well as chaos. Daniel 11 may well be a warning that anything (as in setting up his tabernacle between the seas on the holy mountain) that happens in old Jerusalem won't last, it isn't the real thing -- it will come to it's end.

But some believe the last king of the south is atheism.
And they could be right--
The movement to remove religion and biblical morality out of public view and public practice is getting pretty aggressive, and it is stirring up the religious powers who are lobbying to get into political power and "right" things through government measures.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Charity] #188019
12/10/18 04:14 PM
12/10/18 04:14 PM
ProdigalOne  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Charity
Prodigal, when I saw this is a new lecture I watched the first half hour. He makes a good case as always for his view of the King of the North and South. One reason you may have posted Tim's video is because it agrees with my thread on the Euphrates and the overthrow of Babylon. Tim expects radical Islam to anger the King of the North and overrun the Middle East in the near future which is what I also say about it. But do you recall whether he says anything about verses 29 and 30 in Daniel 11 and a major military humiliation of Christian forces? If I remember right, he puts that in the past, but in my view we should be on high alert for this between now and the spring. This precedes the final western invasion of the Middle East imo.


I would have to rewatch the entire video to be certain, but I don’t think he covers 29 and 30. Probably, to keep his presentation short he skips ahead to chapter 40.


"...I will not forget you.
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."

Isaiah 49:15-16
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188032
12/11/18 05:54 AM
12/11/18 05:54 AM
Rick H  Offline OP
Group: Admin Team
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Posts: 3,157
Florida, USA
This is from another SDA forum...

When it was first brought forth by some that the "King of the North" (KON) was somehow shifted from Rome unto Turkey, James White, a trusted leader in the church knew the KON was indeed Rome, and Uriah Smith, another trusted leader in the church at the time was claiming on a pulpit before the people that the KON was Turkey for some odd reason. He (James) then openly rebuked Uriah before the people to try and prevent confusion being cultivated in the church, and contrary to some that claim otherwise, that act of rebuke is what upset Ellen White enough to make the statement shared below. You will notice that she didn’t disagree with James at all on the KON as some assume and hope to build on by avoiding some basic facts that confirm otherwise. She did however disagree with how he (James) rebuked Smith before the people. It clearly says this in SOP…

•“My husband had some ideas on some points differing from the views taken by his brethren. I was shown that however true his views were, God did not call for him to put them in front before his brethren and create differences of ideas...
Speculative ideas should not be agitated, for there are peculiar minds that love to get some point that others do not accept, and argue and attract everything to that one point, urging that point, magnifying that point, when it is really a matter that is not of vital importance and will be understood differently. Twice I have been shown that everything of a character to cause our ministers to be diverted from the very points now essential for this time should be kept in the background.” -Christ Triumphant 330.3,4

The above is echoed in The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, vol. 4, Page 1067
•The year following White repeats his position at the General Conference of 1878 and, following his impressive succession of “if’s,” comes to certain emphatic conclusions. Differing from Smith’s later views on the latter part of Daniel 11, he found a distinct parallel between this chapter and Daniel 2, 7, and 8. White’s position in 1877 and his line of reasoning are as follows:

“Let us take a brief view of the line of prophecy four times spanned in the book of Daniel. It will be admitted that the same ground is passed over in chapters two, seven, eight, and eleven, with this exception that Babylon is left out of chapters eight and eleven. We first pass down the great image of chapter two, where Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome are represented by the gold, the silver, the brass, and the iron. All agree that these feet are not Turkish but Roman. And as we pass down, the lion, the bear, the leopard, and the beast with ten horns, representing the same as the great image, again all will agree that it is not Turkey that is cast into the burning flame, but the Roman beast. So of chapter eight, all agree that the little horn that stood up against the Prince of princes is not Turkey but Rome. In all these three lines thus far Rome is the last form of government mentioned.

“Now comes the point in the argument upon which very much depends. Does the eleventh chapter of the prophecy of Daniel cover the ground measured by chapters two, seven, and eight? If so, then the last power mentioned in that chapter is Rome.”

And again, in a General Conference session sermon almost a year later, he said:

“There is a line of historic prophecy in chapter eleven, where the symbols are thrown off, beginning with the kings of Persia, and reaching down past Grecia and Rome, to the time when that power ‘shall come to his end, and none shall help him.’ If the feet and ten toes of the metallic image are Roman, if the beast with ten horns that was given to the burning flames of the great day be the Roman beast, if the little horn which stood up against the Prince of princes be Rome, and if the same field and distance are covered by these four prophetic chains, then the last power of the eleventh chapter, which is to ‘come to his end and none shall help him,’ is Rome. But if this be Turkey, as some teach, then the toes of the image of the second chapter are Turkish, the beast with ten horns of the seventh chapter represents Turkey, and it was Turkey that stood up against the Prince of princes of the eighth chapter of Daniel. True, Turkey is bad enough off; but its waning power and its end is the subject of the prophecy of John and not of Daniel.” (From sermon on Sabbath preceding General Conference session.) -The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, vol. 4, Page 1067. 1-5

Notice that after James White made this biblical statement regarding the KON that you will not find any statement made by Ellen White correcting or even rebuking him on this prophetic and historic fact once published for all to read at their leisure. This not only confirms the KON is preached and taught to be Rome by James and Ellen White, it also confirms Ellen White never rebuked James White for declaring this truth as a rebuke against Uriah Smith that day as some twist out of context to this day. Her rebuke to her husband was clearly and solely based on the method by which James rebuked Uriah.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188034
12/11/18 06:43 AM
12/11/18 06:43 AM
APL  Offline
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Western, USA
But the same reasoning, EGW never rebuked Uriah Smith's view of the KOTN being Turkey. In fact, she promoted his book on Daniel equally with Desire of Ages, Patriarchs and Prophets, Great Controversy an Daniel and Revelation. Other authors of her time sh also never rebuked on the issue such as Haskell and Jones.

The Lord calls for workers to enter the canvassing field that the books containing the light of present truth may be circulated. The people in the world need to know that the signs of the times are fulfilling. Take to them the books that will enlighten them. Daniel and Revelation, The Great Controversy, Patriarchs and Prophets, and The Desire of Ages should now go to the world. The grand instruction contained in Daniel and Revelation has been eagerly perused by many in Australia. This book has been the means of bringing many precious souls to a knowledge of the truth. Everything that can be done should be done to circulate Thoughts on Daniel and the Revelation. I know of no other book that can take the place of this one. It is God's helping hand. {21MR 444.3}



Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: The King of the North [Re: APL] #188040
12/12/18 12:04 PM
12/12/18 12:04 PM
Rick H  Offline OP
Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,157
Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: APL
But the same reasoning, EGW never rebuked Uriah Smith's view of the KOTN being Turkey. In fact, she promoted his book on Daniel equally with Desire of Ages, Patriarchs and Prophets, Great Controversy an Daniel and Revelation. Other authors of her time sh also never rebuked on the issue such as Haskell and Jones.

The Lord calls for workers to enter the canvassing field that the books containing the light of present truth may be circulated. The people in the world need to know that the signs of the times are fulfilling. Take to them the books that will enlighten them. Daniel and Revelation, The Great Controversy, Patriarchs and Prophets, and The Desire of Ages should now go to the world. The grand instruction contained in Daniel and Revelation has been eagerly perused by many in Australia. This book has been the means of bringing many precious souls to a knowledge of the truth. Everything that can be done should be done to circulate Thoughts on Daniel and the Revelation. I know of no other book that can take the place of this one. It is God's helping hand. {21MR 444.3}





You would then destroy all the good work that Uriah did, undercutting it much like putting down Jones and Waggoner 1888 message for issues which happened unrelated to their message.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188045
12/13/18 02:05 PM
12/13/18 02:05 PM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: rick
You would then destroy all the good work that Uriah did, undercutting it much like putting down Jones and Waggoner 1888 message for issues which happened unrelated to their message.
Smith, Jones, Waggoner, Haskell: their message remains true, and supported by EGW. Who is destroying what?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: The King of the North [Re: APL] #188051
12/15/18 01:03 AM
12/15/18 01:03 AM
Rick H  Offline OP
Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,157
Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: rick
You would then destroy all the good work that Uriah did, undercutting it much like putting down Jones and Waggoner 1888 message for issues which happened unrelated to their message.
Smith, Jones, Waggoner, Haskell: their message remains true, and supported by EGW. Who is destroying what?


By criticizing Uriah openly before the brethren, James White would have done damage. That is what Ellen White was telling him.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #188053
12/15/18 05:07 AM
12/15/18 05:07 AM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: rick
By criticizing Uriah openly before the brethren, James White would have done damage. That is what Ellen White was telling him.
EGW supported Smith and his book and never rebuked him. WHY? EGW did not have a problem rebuking error. Her rebuke of her husband was more that just causing a damage view of the brethren what is was, there was more to the story. You should read the back story sometime.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: The King of the North [Re: APL] #188064
12/15/18 01:43 PM
12/15/18 01:43 PM
Rick H  Offline OP
Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,157
Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: rick
By criticizing Uriah openly before the brethren, James White would have done damage. That is what Ellen White was telling him.
EGW supported Smith and his book and never rebuked him. WHY? EGW did not have a problem rebuking error. Her rebuke of her husband was more that just causing a damage view of the brethren what is was, there was more to the story. You should read the back story sometime.


Why don't you post it so all can be informed?

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