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What does Jesus mean when He speaks of judgment, reward, and punishment? #189065
04/10/19 12:22 AM
04/10/19 12:22 AM
N
Nadi  Offline OP
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Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 288
Canada
Mountain Man, I created a new topic so we could discuss this question without leaping around in the thread of the other discussion.

My first response would be to ask for clarification regarding a few points.

1. Could you clarify the term "Jesus" when you ask "What does Jesus mean..." I ask this because you appear to emphasis the person of Jesus to the exclusion of God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. Does "Jesus" include the God-head collectively, or are you only concerned with the statements that are attributed to Jesus himself?

2. Are the terms "Judgement, reward, and punishment" understood to refer collectively to an idea, or as three separate ideas?


"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
Re: What does Jesus mean when He speaks of judgment, reward, and punishment? [Re: Nadi] #189071
04/10/19 02:38 AM
04/10/19 02:38 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
1. Jesus speaks for the Heavenly Trio.
2. See the passages posted below:

Matthew 12
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

John 8
16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

Matthew 16
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Matthew 25
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

2 Thessalonians
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Last edited by Mountain Man; 04/10/19 02:39 AM.
Re: What does Jesus mean when He speaks of judgment, reward, and punishment? [Re: Nadi] #189176
04/22/19 09:07 PM
04/22/19 09:07 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Canada
Originally Posted By: Nadi
Mountain Man, I created a new topic so we could discuss this question without leaping around in the thread of the other discussion.

My first response would be to ask for clarification regarding a few points.

1. Could you clarify the term "Jesus" when you ask "What does Jesus mean..." I ask this because you appear to emphasis the person of Jesus to the exclusion of God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. Does "Jesus" include the God-head collectively, or are you only concerned with the statements that are attributed to Jesus himself?

2. Are the terms "Judgement, reward, and punishment" understood to refer collectively to an idea, or as three separate ideas?

John 5:24 says, "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."

For an example of this, see the parable of the prodigal son who went away in profligate living; but who, when he had spent all that he had, repented and returned. His father didn't sit him down and enumerate all his sins, asking him at every turn how he pleaded. Instead his father, seeing him afar off on the way home, ran to him and brought him through the gates, had him clothed anew, prepared a feast for him and treated him like a long lost son who had returned home --- forever and ever. Amen.

Luke 15:11-32

///

Re: What does Jesus mean when He speaks of judgment, reward, and punishment? [Re: Nadi] #189182
04/23/19 06:05 PM
04/23/19 06:05 PM
dedication  Online Content
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John 5:24
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
"

Context is key to understanding.

The word used above which that Bible version translated as Judgment is -- krisis – G2920
Other versions translate it as "condemnation" in this verse.

Those in Christ do not come into "condemnation".
A concept that fits Paul's words:
Roman's 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

However, we need to go back to John 5 to see the context

The word krisis – G2920 is used FIVE times in that chapter--
The KJV translates it as "condemnation" 1X, "damnation" 1X and "judgement" 3X.

Originally Posted By: John 5

5.21 For as the Father raises up the dead, and quickens them; even so the Son quickens whom he will.
5.22 For the Father judges no man, but hath committed all judgment G2920 unto the Son:
5.23 That all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honors not the Son honors not the Father which hath sent him.
5.24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that hears my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation G2920; but is passed from death unto life.
5.25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
5.26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
5.27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment G2920 also, because he is the Son of man.
5.28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
5.29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation G2920.
5.30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment G2920is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


The chapter begins with a story of Christ's restorative power when He "made whole" the man by the pool of Bethesda. "Behold, you are made whole: sin no more," (5:14) he is told by Jesus.

This links to our need of the spiritual resurrection. (A whole great Bible study on its own) Those who partake of the spiritual resurrection, are no longer "dead in sin" but "alive in Christ", led by His Spirit. They will not come into condemnation when the judgment sits and the books are opened, for they have been made whole, Spiritually made alive to live for Christ.


Now we reach Christ's dialogue on the judgment.

5:21 -The Father and the Son will give life to whom they will.

An arbitrary decision or a fair judgement first?

So who makes the decisions?

5:22--The Father gives judgment to Christ

Yes, Christ is our judge. Other verses say the same thing. (Acts 10:42; 17:31, Romans 2:16; 2 Timothy 4:2; 4:8) Yet the Father and Son work together in this. For the verse before this says "The Son does nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do." (5:19) Further in the chapter Jesus says, "My judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
And of course, Daniel 7 shows Christ, "the Son of Man" brought before the ancient of days in the heavenly court where Christ, as the representative of humanity is given the dominion of the earth, and through Him the saints then inherit the earth.



5.23 That all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father.
The call is given to honour Christ (how do we honour Christ?)

Honouring God is more than just words.

We honour and love Him by following Him with heartfelt obedience to His law. "If we love Him, we will keep His commands".

5:24-- He that hears my word, and believeth

(compare with Matt. 7:21,24,26; Luke 6:47,49) Where Jesus tells us that he who hears His sayings and does them, will be like a house that stands through the storm, and he who hears and does not do them, will be like a house that crashes in the storm. "For not everyone that says Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom, but he that does the will of God in heaven."

5:24 ---He that hears Christ's word and believes will not come into condemnation
in the judgment.
When we are IN CHRIST, we do not fear the judgment, for the judgment has two sides-- (see Rev. 3:5) Those who overcome by the blood of the Lamb will have their names presented before the Father and His angels. But sadly others will have their names removed from the book of life.

That is the investigative judgment
Now comes the executive judgment
Notice the word "ALSO" which has a cumulative force; and, also, even, so then, too, etc. in addition to...

5:27-- The Father...has given him (CHRIST) authority to execute judgment ALSO.

in addition to the former "judgment" that determines to
whom the Father and Son will give eternal life
Christ is also given authority to execute judgment.

5:29-- They that have done good will be raised in the resurrection of life.

Compare with
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that takes part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power.



5:29-- They that have done evil will be raised in the resurrection of damnation.

Revelation 20 says the rest of the dead live not until the 1000 years are over their names are not found in the book of life and they face second death.

Re: What does Jesus mean when He speaks of judgment, reward, and punishment? [Re: Mountain Man] #189183
04/23/19 06:55 PM
04/23/19 06:55 PM
N
Nadi  Offline OP
NON-SDA
Active Member 2020
Full Member
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 288
Canada
IMO,
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
1. Jesus speaks for the Heavenly Trio.
is an idea not strongly supported by Scripture. None of the verses supplied
Originally Posted By: MM

2. See the passages posted below:
Matthew 12
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

John 8
16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

Matthew 16
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Matthew 25
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

2 Thessalonians
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
spoke to that question.


"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl

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