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Re: When Michael Stands Up [Re: His child] #189127
04/14/19 03:57 PM
04/14/19 03:57 PM
C
Charity  Offline OP
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
Originally Posted By: His child

And if a word study is done of Daniel 12:1 (looking up each word in the text) it can be read as follows

Quote:
When Michael holds his ground, this mighty ruler takes his stand against the children of thy people.

The idea is that Michael takes a stand for the purpose of defending and delivering His people imo.

Re: When Michael Stands Up [Re: Charity] #189131
04/15/19 05:11 AM
04/15/19 05:11 AM
His child  Offline
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Posts: 1,673
TN, USA
Originally Posted By: Charity
Originally Posted By: His child

And if a word study is done of Daniel 12:1 (looking up each word in the text) it can be read as follows

Quote:
When Michael holds his ground, this mighty ruler takes his stand against the children of thy people.

The idea is that Michael takes a stand for the purpose of defending and delivering His people imo.



That is obvious when all of the added words by the translators are accepted as if they are really in the text.


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: When Michael Stands Up [Re: His child] #189133
04/15/19 10:25 AM
04/15/19 10:25 AM
C
Charity  Offline OP
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
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Originally Posted By: His child
Originally Posted By: Charity
Originally Posted By: His child

And if a word study is done of Daniel 12:1 (looking up each word in the text) it can be read as follows

Quote:
When Michael holds his ground, this mighty ruler takes his stand against the children of thy people.

The idea is that Michael takes a stand for the purpose of defending and delivering His people imo.



That is obvious when all of the added words by the translators are accepted as if they are really in the text.


The additional words are used to give the meaning in our language that are intended but unnecessary in the original language. So before a person rejects the words supplied by the translators he ought to have some proficiency in the original or some clear justification for rejecting words supplied by those who are fluent. One less reliable way of checking supplied words for those who have no knowledge of Hebrew and Greek is to look at a literal translation. I looked at two of these, Young's and the LITV and both agree with the KJV, ASV, RV, Websters, ISV, ESV, JPS and MKJV.

Re: When Michael Stands Up [Re: Charity] #189138
04/15/19 07:28 PM
04/15/19 07:28 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2008
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Midland
Charity, that sounds like good advice.

Re: When Michael Stands Up [Re: Charity] #189144
04/17/19 08:51 AM
04/17/19 08:51 AM
His child  Offline
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TN, USA
Originally Posted By: Charity
The additional words are used to give the meaning in our language that are intended but unnecessary in the original language. So before a person rejects the words supplied by the translators he ought to have some proficiency in the original or some clear justification for rejecting words supplied by those who are fluent. One less reliable way of checking supplied words for those who have no knowledge of Hebrew and Greek is to look at a literal translation. I looked at two of these, Young's and the LITV and both agree with the KJV, ASV, RV, Websters, ISV, ESV, JPS and MKJV.


Rejecting is a strong word. Consider the alternatives is a better choice.

Consider Daniel 8:12 in the versions that you checked. Then consider Ellen Whites comment on that verse.

Quote:
And the host is given up, with the continual [sacrifice], through transgression, and it throweth down truth to the earth, and it hath worked, and prospered. YLT


Quote:
And a host was given with the regular sacrifice because of transgression. And it threw the truth down to the ground, and it worked and prospered. LITV


Quote:
And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. KJV


Quote:
And [a]the host was given over to it together with the continual burnt-offering through transgression; and it cast down truth to the ground, and it did its pleasure and prospered. ASV


Quote:
And the host was given over to it together with the continual burnt offering through transgression;[a] and truth was cast down to the ground, and the horn acted and prospered. RSV


Quote:
And a host was given [him] against the daily [sacrifice] by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practiced, and prospered. WEBSTERS


Quote:
Because of the transgression, the Heavenly Army will be given over, along with the regular burnt offering, and in that rebellion truth will be cast to the ground, while he continues to prosper and to act. ISV


Quote:
And a host will be given over to it together with the regular burnt offering because of transgression,[a] and it will throw truth to the ground, and it will act and prosper. ESV


Quote:
And the host was given over to it together with the continual burnt-offering through transgression; and it cast down truth to the ground, and it wrought, and prospered. JPS


Quote:
And an army was given to him against the daily sacrifice because of transgression, and it cast the truth to the ground. And it worked and succeeded. MJKV


Quote:
Then I saw in relation to the "daily" (Daniel 8:12) that the word "sacrifice" was supplied by man's wisdom, and does not belong to the text, and that the Lord gave the correct view of it to those who gave the judgment hour cry. {EW 74.2}


The word Sacrifice does not belong to the text. Many of the versions you checked put it into the text. Some note that it is an added word while others do not. And others on your list replace sacrifice with burnt offering or some other words that do not belong in the text.

Faulty reasoning, as shown in this example, allows a traditional understanding of the translators to be written into a text: Something that does not belong there.

Turning to Daniel 12:1 This is what Daniel wrote

time <06256> Michael <04317> take one’s stand <05975> (8799), great <01419> prince <08269> take one’s stand <05975> (8802) son <01121> people <05971>: brought about <01961> (8738) time <06256> trouble <06869> nation <01471> time <06256>: time <06256> people <05971> to be delivered <04422> (8735) to be found <04672> (8737) written <03789> (8803) book <05612>.

With the numbers removed...This is what Daniel wrote:

Quote:
time Michael take one’s stand great prince take one’s stand son people brought about time trouble nation time time people to be delivered to be found written book.


Many Bible translators read it like the KJV with all those added words that ate not in the text.

Daniel does not say stand for his people their people or our people. Though the KJV rendition might be correct from one perspective, that is no reason to assume that this text cannot be read differently.

From the words that Daniel actually wrote in conjunction with my study of Daniel and Revelation, I believe that this is the warning that we all need to consider:

Quote:
When Michael holds his ground, this mighty ruler takes his stand against the children of thy people: He brings about a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: When thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book (Daniel 12:1, alternate reading).


Quote:
The perils of the last days are upon us, and in our work we are to warn the people of the danger they are in. Let not the solemn scenes which prophecy has revealed, be left untouched. If our people were half awake, if they realized the nearness of the events portrayed by John in the Revelation, such a reformation would be made in our churches that many more from all churches would believe our message. We have no time to lose; God calls upon us to watch for souls as they that must give an account. Advance new principles, and crowd in the clear cut truth. It will be as a sword cutting both ways. But be not too ready to take a controversial attitude. There will be times when we must stand still and see the salvation of God. Let Daniel speak, let the Revelation speak, and tell what is truth. But whatever phase of the subject is presented, uplift Jesus as the centre of all hope, "The Root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning Star." {PH130 33.2}


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: When Michael Stands Up [Re: His child] #189145
04/17/19 11:33 AM
04/17/19 11:33 AM
C
Charity  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2020

4500+ Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA

Originally Posted By: His child

Quote:
The perils of the last days are upon us, and in our work we are to warn the people of the danger they are in. Let not the solemn scenes which prophecy has revealed, be left untouched. If our people were half awake, if they realized the nearness of the events portrayed by John in the Revelation, such a reformation would be made in our churches that many more from all churches would believe our message. We have no time to lose; God calls upon us to watch for souls as they that must give an account. Advance new principles, and crowd in the clear cut truth. It will be as a sword cutting both ways. But be not too ready to take a controversial attitude. There will be times when we must stand still and see the salvation of God. Let Daniel speak, let the Revelation speak, and tell what is truth. But whatever phase of the subject is presented, uplift Jesus as the centre of all hope, "The Root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning Star." {PH130 33.2}


Excellent quote. I'll do my diligence to take it to heart. About your interpretation of Daniel 12:1, your view doesn't detract from what we know is true. It could actually be helpful.

About Notre Dame, did you notice it burned on the 10th of the first Hebrew month, the day the lamb is examined and set aside and the day Christ cleansed the temple, the day Israel's conquest of Canaan began? Given that, I'd say let's stay tuned this weekend and in the coming weeks. You may remember that in October 2018 David Gates predicted a spring of trouble this year. The burning of Notre Dame, like the flooding of the Midwest which was classed as the greatest agricultural disaster in American history, is a harbinger of what's in store for for the church, for France, for the USA, and for the world. God in love is trying to get our attention off of the world, to wean us from our own selfish ambitions and help us prepare for the return of Christ.

Re: When Michael Stands Up [Re: Charity] #189147
04/17/19 07:41 PM
04/17/19 07:41 PM
Daryl  Offline

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,132
Nova Scotia, Canada
That was an interesting quote by Ellen White on Daniel 8:12 but you only quoted a portion of that quote.

Here is the whole quote:
Quote:
Then I saw in relation to the "daily" (Daniel 8:12) that the word "sacrifice" was supplied by man's wisdom, and does not belong to the text, and that the Lord gave the correct view of it to those who gave the judgment hour cry. When union existed, before 1844, nearly all were united on the correct view of the "daily"; but in the confusion since 1844, other views have been embraced, and darkness and confusion have followed. Time has not been a test since 1844, and it will never again be a test. {EW 74.2}


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: When Michael Stands Up [Re: Daryl] #189152
04/18/19 08:09 AM
04/18/19 08:09 AM
His child  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020
Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,673
TN, USA
Originally Posted By: Daryl
That was an interesting quote by Ellen White on Daniel 8:12 but you only quoted a portion of that quote.

Here is the whole quote:
Quote:
Then I saw in relation to the "daily" (Daniel 8:12) that the word "sacrifice" was supplied by man's wisdom, and does not belong to the text, and that the Lord gave the correct view of it to those who gave the judgment hour cry. When union existed, before 1844, nearly all were united on the correct view of the "daily"; but in the confusion since 1844, other views have been embraced, and darkness and confusion have followed. Time has not been a test since 1844, and it will never again be a test. {EW 74.2}


Thank you for giving the rest of the quote. It is extremely difficult to sweep away the trash that has entered into the Church since 1844 and to restore a right understanding.

Quote:
The close application of those Hebrew students [Daniel and his companions] under the training of God was richly rewarded. While they made diligent effort to secure knowledge, the Lord gave them heavenly wisdom. The knowledge they gained was of great service to them when brought into strait places. The Lord God of heaven will not supply the deficiencies that result from mental and spiritual indolence. When the human agents shall exercise their faculties to acquire knowledge, to become deep thinking men; when they, as the greatest witnesses for God and the truth, shall have won in the field of investigation of vital doctrines concerning the salvation of the soul, that glory may be given to the God of heaven as supreme, then even judges and kings will be brought to acknowledge, in the courts of justice, in parliaments and councils, that the God who made the heavens and the earth is the only true and living God, the author of Christianity, the author of all truth, who instituted the seventh-day Sabbath when the foundations of the world were laid, when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted together for joy.--FE 374, 375


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: When Michael Stands Up [Re: Charity] #196915
11/01/23 02:36 AM
11/01/23 02:36 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Posts: 6,679
Canada
Quote

When Michael holds his ground, this mighty ruler takes his stand against the children of thy people: He brings about a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: When thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book (Daniel 12:1, alternate reading).

That does make sense!
The idea is that Michael takes a stand for the purpose of defending and delivering His people.
And I do believe that signals the close of probation.

Daniel 11:40-45 outlines the rise of this last power. There may well be physical battles that enable the rise of this "king of the north" which I believe has morphed into the same confederacy we see in Revelation 17. The beast controlled by religious (Papal and apostate protestant) power. Probation is still open during the "rising" period.

43 But he
(this last great power, king of the North) shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: (economic control, regulating buying and selling, no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark,) the Libyans and the Ethiopians at his steps.(nations will join with him)

11:44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. (He will cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. )

11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
12:1 For Michael holds his ground, when this mighty ruler takes his stand against the children of thy people. He will bring about a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: then thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Rev. 7:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.

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