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The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide #189242
05/01/19 08:46 PM
05/01/19 08:46 PM
Daryl  Offline
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The following link is to an interesting Bible Study Guide on "The Lost Sanctuary:

http://www.blueprintgps.com/

Feel free to discuss this here.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: Daryl] #189253
05/03/19 09:16 PM
05/03/19 09:16 PM
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It is a list of Bible studies dealing with a subject that a couple of the members on this forum rather strongly oppose.
But they seem to be good studies on this important subject.


Lesson ONE

The war in heaven: The fall of angels

SCRIPTURES
Ezekiel 28:13–18 Subject: the cherub (angel) created prefect, anointed as the covering cherub in God's Holy Mountain
Who is this referring to?
| Hebrews 8:1–5 Earthly sanctuary a shadow of the true heavenly sanctuary
| Exodus 24:12 Earthly sanctuary contained God’s law, given by God Himself.
| Exodus 25:17–21 Ark in the Most Holy has two cherubs, their wings covering the mercy seat, with God’s law in the ark under the mercy seat.

Old Testament Scripture tells us a covering cherub stood at each end of the ark, covering the mercy set.
| 1 Chronicles 28:2 The ark of the covenant in the sanctuary is God’s footstool.
| Psalm 99:1 God dwells between the cherubim
| Psalm 99:5 Exalt the Lord, worship at His footstool
| Psalm 132:7 Go to His tabernacle, worship at His footstool.
Exodus 24:12,10 God called Moses up the mountain, God gave him two tablets of stone containing His commands which He had written.
| Romans13:10 Love fulfills the law
| Song of Solomon 8:6-7 Love as a seal, stronger than death
| Deuteronomy33:2 The Lord came from Sinai with His law for them.
| Isaiah 14:12–14 Lucifer seeks to exalt His throne above God, but is fallen.
| 1 John 3:4 Sin is the transgression of God’s law.
| Psalm 103:20 Angels who do God’s will, excel in strength
Proverbs 28:4 The wicked praise those who forsake God’s law.
| Revelation 12:7–9 There was war in heaven, Satan and his angels were cast out.
| Isaiah 59:1-2 Your iniquities separated you from God.
| Romans 6:23 Sin brings death, but the gift of God is eternal life.

Sin began with Lucifer, who exalted himself, separated himself from God, broke God’s law of love, went out to deceive
first – other angels
secondly – mankind.

Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: dedication] #189254
05/03/19 11:00 PM
05/03/19 11:00 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
It is a list of Bible studies dealing with a subject that a couple of the members on this forum rather strongly oppose.
But which show the reason of this earthly journey through a life and why there is so much evil.
And what salvation is really all about.

Lesson ONE

The war in heaven: The fall of angels

SCRIPTURES
Ezekiel 28:13–18 Subject: the cherub (angel) created prefect, anointed as the covering cherub in God's Holy Mountain
Who is this referring to?

| Hebrews 8:1–5 Earthly sanctuary a shadow of the true heavenly sanctuary
| Exodus 24:12 Earthly sanctuary contained God’s law, given by God Himself.
| Exodus 25:17–21 Ark in the Most Holy has two cherubs, their wings covering the mercy seat, with God’s law in the ark under the mercy seat.

Old Testament Scripture tells us a covering cherub stood at each end of the ark, covering the mercy set.
| 1 Chronicles 28:2 The ark of the covenant in the sanctuary is God’s footstool.
| Psalm 99:1 God dwells between the cherubim
| Psalm 99:5 Exalt the Lord, worship at His footstool
| Psalm 132:7 Go to His tabernacle, worship at His footstool.
Exodus 24:12,10 God called Moses up the mountain, God gave him two tablets of stone containing His commands which He had written.
| Romans13:10 Love fulfills the law
| Song of Solomon 8:6-7 Love as a seal, stronger than death
| Deuteronomy33:2 The Lord came from Sinai with His law for them.
| Isaiah 14:12–14 Lucifer seeks to exalt His throne above God, but is fallen.
| 1 John 3:4 Sin is the transgression of God’s law.
| Psalm 103:20 Angels who do God’s will, excel in strength
Proverbs 28:4 The wicked praise those who forsake God’s law.
| Revelation 12:7–9 There was war in heaven, Satan and his angels were cast out.
| Isaiah 59:1-2 Your iniquities separated you from God.
| Romans 6:23 Sin brings death, but the gift of God is eternal life.

Sin began with Lucifer, who exalted himself, separated himself from God, broke God’s law of love, went out to deceive
first – other angels
secondly – mankind.

Thank you, dedication, for making the site more accessible for the rest of us on this forum.

The question was asked, "Who is this referring to?"

Well, you needn't have gone flying off to the ends of the earth to find out, searching diligently in the depths of the sea or looking intently up to the clouds.

The answer is right there, staring you in the face: THE KING OF TYRE.

Ezekiel 26:12b-19 is a lamentation that was to be taken up when God would have judged the King and he would have been no more. The place of his residence was like the Garden of Eden for beauty and he was like Adam, a glorious being and the first, in it; and so when all would have been said and done and he had been overthrown, this was going to be the dirge:

  • You were the seal of perfection,
    Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
    You were in Eden, the garden of God;
    Every precious stone was your covering:
    The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
    Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
    Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
    The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
    Was prepared for you on the day you were created.

    You were the anointed cherub who covers;
    I established you;
    You were on the holy mountain of God;
    You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
    You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
    Till iniquity was found in you.

    By the abundance of your trading
    You became filled with violence within,
    And you sinned;
    Therefore I cast you as a profane thing
    Out of the mountain of God;
    And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,
    From the midst of the fiery stones.

    Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
    You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;
    I cast you to the ground,
    I laid you before kings,
    That they might gaze at you.

    You defiled your sanctuaries
    By the multitude of your iniquities,
    By the iniquity of your trading;
    Therefore I brought fire from your midst;
    It devoured you,
    And I turned you to ashes upon the earth
    In the sight of all who saw you.
    All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you;
    You have become a horror,
    And shall be no more forever.

The use of the word "sanctuaries" was a reference to his places of rest or royal residences like the US President has "sanctuaries" in the White House, the Trump Tower, Mar-o-Lago, and Martha's Vineyard. The King of Tyre was using those places to plan and have executed all kinds of ruthless designs on others, imagining himself to be like God, holding life and death over them in his hands.

///

Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: Daryl] #189255
05/04/19 12:58 AM
05/04/19 12:58 AM
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Not surprised by your response. I realize the king of Tyre is given as a "type" of Lucifer, exhibiting his attributes.

But consider -
Is the king of Tyre a CHERUB?
Was the king of Tyre created PREFECT?
Was the king of Tyre in EDEN?
The situation, goes far beyond the situations of the literal king of Tyre.

The Bible often uses types to explain more ultimate realities.


The king of Tyre, showed the characteristics of Lucifer.
A cherub in the Biblical view, is a created angel , he is not God. Yet this king of Tyre (a created human) was claiming Divine status, just as Lucifer (a created cherub) wanted Divine status "to set his throne above the throne of God" (Is. 14). and just as the king of Tyre with his kingdom ended, so Lucifer/Satan will come to an utter end.

But what is interesting.
Do you know the NAME of the king of Tyre who ruled during Ezekiel time? The name BAAL !!!

Baal I 680 - 660 BC
Ethbaal III 591 -573 BC
Baal II 573 -564 BC
Yakinbaal 564 BC

Israelites were worshipping Baal when they were taken into Babylonian captivity.
They were worshipping Baal many years earlier as well.
Jezebel (Ahab's infamous queen) was the daughter of Ethbaal 1, king of Tyre, an ardent worshiper of Baal.
Baal is the demon god of Phoenicia, (Tyre is a Phoenician port city). Baal was the chief "god" in direct conflict for worship with the God of heaven.

The Ugarit tablets (14th cent. BC) show Baal as the chief of the Canaanite pantheon -- the source of life and fertility, mighty hero, lord of war.

The worship of Baal was propagated by real people who took his name -- like the kings of Tyre -- claiming a status of divine godhood, in the realm of Baal/Satan their chosen "god".

So yes, the ultimate figure in Ezekiel's prophecy, is Baal, the "fallen angel god" to whom the divinity aspiring kings of Tyre, Baals gave their worship and allegiance, and exhibited his attributes.


Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: dedication] #189257
05/04/19 04:08 AM
05/04/19 04:08 AM
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James Peterson  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
Not surprised by your response. I realize the king of Tyre is given as a "type" of Lucifer, exhibiting his attributes.

But consider -
Is the king of Tyre a CHERUB?
Was the king of Tyre created PREFECT?
Was the king of Tyre in EDEN?
The situation, goes far beyond the situations of the literal king of Tyre.

The Bible often uses types to explain more ultimate realities.


The king of Tyre, showed the characteristics of Lucifer.
A cherub in the Biblical view, is a created angel , he is not God. Yet this king of Tyre (a created human) was claiming Divine status, just as Lucifer (a created cherub) wanted Divine status "to set his throne above the throne of God" (Is. 14). and just as the king of Tyre with his kingdom ended, so Lucifer/Satan will come to an utter end.

But what is interesting.
Do you know the NAME of the king of Tyre who ruled during Ezekiel time? The name BAAL !!!

Baal I 680 - 660 BC
Ethbaal III 591 -573 BC
Baal II 573 -564 BC
Yakinbaal 564 BC

Israelites were worshipping Baal when they were taken into Babylonian captivity.
They were worshipping Baal many years earlier as well.
Jezebel (Ahab's infamous queen) was the daughter of Ethbaal 1, king of Tyre, an ardent worshiper of Baal.
Baal is the demon god of Phoenicia, (Tyre is a Phoenician port city). Baal was the chief "god" in direct conflict for worship with the God of heaven.

The Ugarit tablets (14th cent. BC) show Baal as the chief of the Canaanite pantheon -- the source of life and fertility, mighty hero, lord of war.

The worship of Baal was propagated by real people who took his name -- like the kings of Tyre -- claiming a status of divine godhood, in the realm of Baal/Satan their chosen "god".

So yes, the ultimate figure in Ezekiel's prophecy, is Baal, the "fallen angel god" to whom the divinity aspiring kings of Tyre, Baals gave their worship and allegiance, and exhibited his attributes.


Why did you run off into the desert, shouting "Baal! Baal! Baal!" Does the name mean anything at all? Does Donald Trump mean he is a musician? Or that he one of the seven trumpets of the Apocalypse? Of course not! What significance is there in the name King David, or King Nebuchadnezzar? It is nothing at all.

The King of Tyre was not the only one said to have been in the Garden of Eden. Here, (just 3 chapters later in Ezekiel 31) in the following quote, the Pharaoh of Egypt was said to be the VERY Tree of Life itself.

  • Son of man, say to Pharaoh king of Egypt and to his multitude:

    Whom are you like in your greatness?

    .
    .

    Indeed Assyria was a cedar in Lebanon,
    With fine branches that shaded the forest,
    And of high stature;
    And its top was among the thick boughs.
    The waters made it grow;
    Underground waters gave it height,
    With their rivers running around the place where it was planted,
    And sent out rivulets to all the trees of the field.

    Therefore its height was exalted above all the trees of the field;
    Its boughs were multiplied,
    And its branches became long because of the abundance of water,
    As it sent them out.
    All the birds of the heavens made their nests in its boughs;
    Under its branches all the beasts of the field brought forth their young;
    And in its shadow all great nations made their home.

    Thus it was beautiful in greatness and in the length of its branches,
    Because its roots reached to abundant waters.
    The cedars in the garden of God could not hide it;
    The fir trees were not like its boughs,
    And the chestnut trees were not like its branches;

    No tree in the garden of God was like it in beauty.
    I made it beautiful with a multitude of branches,
    So that all the trees of Eden envied it,
    That were in the garden of God.

    .
    .

    To which of the trees in Eden will you then be likened in glory and greatness?

READ! READ! READ! READ THE BIBLE FOR YOURSELF!

///

Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: Daryl] #189258
05/04/19 05:43 AM
05/04/19 05:43 AM
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Those "trees in Eden" are analogies or metaphors.

It's a different form of literary expression.
Ezekiel in chapter 28 is describing characteristics of Baal, the king of Tyre who has taken on both the attributes and the name of the chief pagan "god" representing Satan. Thus he is a type of the greater rebel.

This ultimate rebel WAS in Eden
He WAS created perfect till iniquity was found in him
He was the anointed cherub who covers;
He was in the Holy Mountain of God
He walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
etc.

He is not being likened to a tree in Eden.


Likening a flourishing nation or people to a TREE
is a metaphoric expression.

-
Daniel 4 Nebuchadnezzar has a dream in which he is represented as a tree --
"The leaves thereof were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was meat for all: the beasts of the field had shadow under it, and the fowls of the heaven dwelt in the boughs thereof, and all flesh was fed of it."
The tree is cut down but the stump is left --
What is the lesson being taught?
" the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will,"

And yes, these nations owe everything to the God of heaven.

Genesis 2:9
Out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree


And guess WHO was in the garden of Eden already luring mankind to rebel against their Creator and pretend they could be "gods"?

Gen. 3:4=5 "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods."

There was an intelligent being there in the garden of Eden, that was already in rebellion against God his Creator before mankind sinned.
He is clearly identified in Revelation 12:9 "that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world"


So the whole "war" unfolds.
God created mankind, and gave him dominion over the earth. Gen. 1:27
But that old serpent the devil was already there IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN. His heart was already set to place his throne above the throne of God. (Is. 14) He was cast down from heaven, so his ambition turned to setting up his throne over humanity, imbue them with his rebellion and fill them with selfish ambition. It all started in Eden.

So we have the metaphors of the beautiful trees (human beings) who were granted the favors of God and given intelligent, creative minds. But nation after nation gave their allegiance to the wrong "god". Following the pattern of Lucifer.

The nations are likened to trees -- their talents and all their abilities came from God, they were given opportunity to show righteousness and goodness, but they gave their allegiance to Baal, to the serpent, and bought his lies that they could be their own gods, if they obeyed him.

So
Ezkiel 31:14 To the end that none of all the trees by the waters exalt themselves for their height, neither shoot up their top among the thick boughs, neither their trees stand up in their height, all that drink water: for they are all delivered unto death, to the nether parts of the earth, in the midst of the children of men, with them that go down to the pit.

Following Lucifer, exalting self, deifying self, playing god, does not offer what it seems to offer -- it ends in destruction.

But those who follow Christ --

Isaiah 60: 2, 13 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee...
The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious.










Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: Daryl] #189259
05/04/19 06:30 AM
05/04/19 06:30 AM
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The covering cherub

The position of covering cherub is revealed in the sanctuary.

Exodus 25:17–21 Shows the ark of the covenant with the shekinah glory (the presence of God) in the Most Holy as having two cherubs, their wings covering the mercy seat, with God’s law in the ark under the mercy seat.

The covering cherub's place was by the throne of God.

Ex 25:19 And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: [even] of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof.
25:20 And the cherubims shall stretch forth [their] wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings,

Ezek 28:14,16 You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones....
I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: dedication] #189269
05/05/19 08:39 AM
05/05/19 08:39 AM
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James Peterson  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
The covering cherub

The position of covering cherub is revealed in the sanctuary.

Exodus 25:17–21 Shows the ark of the covenant with the shekinah glory (the presence of God) in the Most Holy as having two cherubs, their wings covering the mercy seat, with God’s law in the ark under the mercy seat.

The covering cherub's place was by the throne of God.

Ex 25:19 And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: [even] of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof.
25:20 And the cherubims shall stretch forth [their] wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings,

Ezek 28:14,16 You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones....
I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

So who were the TWO (not one but TWO) cherubim that were depicted over the Mercy Seat?

///

Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: Daryl] #189277
05/06/19 05:13 AM
05/06/19 05:13 AM
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Yes, on the ark of the covenant stood two covering cherubim, there were two. Who was the second one? Another cherubim -- probably one that did not fall for Lucifer's lies. Scripture doesn't give us a definite answer on that question.
So any answer is just speculation.

There are ideas --
that it is Gabriel, that he was the second and was promoted to first, after Lucifer defected.

Scripture shows that Gabriel occupies a high place in heaven.
In Luke 1:19 we read: " "I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God," So he holds a position of high honor close to God's throne.

So it is possible,

In Solomon's temple, he had two huge golden cherubim standing over the ark. Plus of course, the two that were already on the ark.

So it's likely there are actually four cherubim by God's throne.
That's what we see in Ezekiel -- chapter 1 and chapter 10.
Are these the same as the four living creatures in Revelation 4?
They don't look like the common artist's conception of angels.

Scripture gives us only glimpses into heavenly things, not a full "who is who" description of the thousand times ten thousand, thousands of thousands that stand before His throne.

Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: Daryl] #189278
05/06/19 02:45 PM
05/06/19 02:45 PM
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What about the Scriptures that New Testament writers apply to Jesus? Could it be said that they do not refer to Jesus?

Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: Daryl] #189300
05/07/19 04:06 PM
05/07/19 04:06 PM
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Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

When considered in the larger context of Isaiah 9 why do we choose to believe verse 6 is referring to Jesus?

Isaiah 8:18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.

Isaiah 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.

Is it possible God uses people, places, and things to symbolize past, present, and future people, places, and events? For example, the King of Tyre. Or, the sons of Isaiah.

Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: Daryl] #189315
05/08/19 05:33 AM
05/08/19 05:33 AM
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Very true -- so many of the Messianic prophecies are embedded in a context that deals with events and prophecies of more local things.

Isaiah especially is rich in prophecies pointing beyond their more localized settings.

Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: Daryl] #189316
05/08/19 05:47 AM
05/08/19 05:47 AM
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Well the first lesson in those Bible Study Guides was on
The war in heaven, the fall of Lucifer and angels that followed him.

Lesson 2 shows the war coming to this planet.

The war on earth -the fall of mankind

It deals with some important questions
--Why didn’t God immediately destroy Satan and his angels when they sinned?

--Why would God want a fair demonstration of the claims made? Why?

-- Who will be the jury?

-- Why was Satan so set on winning over the first human beings?

== How is God's character revealed

Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: James Peterson] #189330
05/09/19 02:27 PM
05/09/19 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted By: James Peterson
+6`
So who were the TWO (not one but TWO) cherubim that were depicted over the Mercy Seat?

///


I do not have a Scripture in mind that will answer your question James, but I suspect that Christ was manifest as one of the original covering Cherubim. He manifested Himself as an angel in Heaven before Lucifer was cast out and the fact that He would enter into the secret counsels of God while Lucifer was not permitted to do so go along with that scenario.


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: Daryl] #189331
05/10/19 04:11 AM
05/10/19 04:11 AM
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HC, You could probably appeal to the scriptures that speak of Christ as Michael the Archangel -- or the commander of the heavenly hosts. (Joshua 5:14, Revelation 12:7)

Yet, I believe Christ's place was ON the throne, with the Father, thus receiving the honor of the angels, not holding the position of "covering cherub"

Yes, His
"goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting" (Micah 5:2) That is -- He did mingle with the created, He created them, He was their leader, but He was also God, with the Father, (John 1:1) and He went forth from God, (John 8:42)that is from His place ON the throne of God to mingle with the created.


Also scripture says we were created in God's image --
Cherubim have a rather different "image", Artists paint Lucifer looking like a man with wings, but read Ezekiel 1 and 10 -- cherubim don't look at all like us.

Bottom line, of course, James' question cannot be answered with an affirmative Biblical answer, because the answer was not revealed. Everyone can have an opinion, but no proof. We do know there are more cherubim in heaven, so not knowing who the other cherub was/is presents no problem.

Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: Daryl] #189332
05/10/19 04:39 AM
05/10/19 04:39 AM
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Looking at lesson two.

It raises a question that is often asked by suffering humanity.
Why, didn't God stop Lucifer dead in his tracks and save the world from 6000 years of trouble, sickness, and all the other terrors that satan and sin have stirred up during those years.

Why did God allow Satan to be at that forbidden tree?


Why didn’t God immediately remove His life giving power from Satan and his angels when they sinned? Separated from the source of life, they would have died immediately. So why does God continue to supply life power to them?

Because He is bound by justice in all that He does. Had God instantly stopped "life energy" to reach Lucifer, the one who was accusing Him of being unjust, Lucifer’s argument could have been strengthened in the eyes of the other angels. Suspicion would have run rampant had this beloved and highest of angels suddenly dropped dead. Was there something he knew that God was trying to cover up? No, God would allow fairness to dictate His actions.

Everyone would be allowed to see what the fruits of Lucifer's "improved government" led to.

Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: Daryl] #189333
05/10/19 04:50 AM
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Sin kills, not God. Sinners cut themselves off from life, not God. The inevitable results of sin is death, not God cutting someone off, or executing them. God does not say, love Me, or I'll kill you. NO. Sin destroys the sinner.

The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Ephesians 4:18; Proverbs 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}
 
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. {DA 764.2}
 
But not so when the great controversy shall be ended. Then, the plan of redemption having been completed, the character of God is revealed to all created intelligences. The precepts of His law are seen to be perfect and immutable. Then sin has made manifest its nature, Satan his character. Then the extermination of sin will vindicate God's love and establish His honor before a universe of beings who delight to do His will, and in whose heart is His law. {DA 764.3}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: Daryl] #189337
05/10/19 06:03 PM
05/10/19 06:03 PM
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Bible answers???

The question -- why was Lucifer allowed to live?

Yes, Satan was allowed to live, God (Who is the source of life) continued to give that life to Lucifer, He didn't cut him off, Lucifer didn't suffer the "result of his sin" which is the loss of life, at that point.

And yes, we believe:

" God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles."


I agree -- no one would have understood, if Satan and his angels had dropped dead.

The lesson explores WHY sin was allowed to enter the world, and why they continued to receive life from God even though they rebelled against the Life Giver and sinned.

Who are these who would not have "understood"?

Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: APL] #189338
05/10/19 07:15 PM
05/10/19 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted By: APL
Sin kills, not God. Sinners cut themselves off from life, not God. The inevitable results of sin is death, not God cutting someone off, or executing them. God does not say, love Me, or I'll kill you. NO. Sin destroys the sinner.

The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Ephesians 4:18; Proverbs 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}
 
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. {DA 764.2}
 
But not so when the great controversy shall be ended. Then, the plan of redemption having been completed, the character of God is revealed to all created intelligences. The precepts of His law are seen to be perfect and immutable. Then sin has made manifest its nature, Satan his character. Then the extermination of sin will vindicate God's love and establish His honor before a universe of beings who delight to do His will, and in whose heart is His law. {DA 764.3}

APL,

You continue to compel all and sundry to hear your incorrect interpretations of Scripture; yet the truth still stands. God can, does, and will mete justice to sinners. The Bible says it. Ellen White says it. Jesus Himself said it. These truths are recorded for us not once nor twice. Why will you not believe it?

APL, your view stands opposed to the heart of the Gospel. It opposes the Third Angel's message, by making of none effect the law of God.

Whether you choose to accept inspiration or not on this point, you have no right to infuse every topic here on this forum with your private interpretations, taking them from the subject of discussion to your own special fetish.

You clearly have some problems with understanding both God and the Bible. Many texts of Scripture show plainly that your pet view cannot be correct--and I think you know it, which is what has made you so defensive here on this point, to the point of almost belligerence on the topic.

Consider Exodus 4:24: "And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him."

Why would God seek to do something that God cannot do? He wouldn't. God can and will--else Balaam's donkey feared God in vain.

Now, lest you take to wresting as is your usual course, let's break down the text here a little more. In this verse, the Hebrew verb translated to English as "to kill" is NOT of the Qatal variety: rather, it is Hiphil. In Hebrew, Hiphil verbs show that the subject of the verb causes the verb's object to do a specified action or to be in a specified state. In this case, the subject is "LORD," the object is Moses (the antecedent of the pronoun "him"; cf. vs. 21), and the state is death. The KJV has correctly translated the verb, stating that the LORD (capitals are to indicate Jehovah God, i.e. Yahweh) would kill him.

Satan is not Yahweh. Sin is not Yahweh. The one said to cause this state of death is Yahweh.

Hebrew is a fascinating language, APL. If you want to understand the Bible better, I recommend you learn some.

Now, does Ellen White agree that God kills? Yes. Consider the following, in which Ellen White speaks within the context of "the fear of God."

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Here, according to the light that has been given me, there has been a manifest neglect among our people. Ministers sometimes stand in the desk with their hair in disorder, looking as if it had been untouched by comb and brush for a week. God is dishonored when those who engage in His sacred service are so neglectful of their appearance. Anciently the priests were required to have their garments in a particular style to do service in the holy place and minister in the priest's office. They were to have garments in accordance with their work, and God distinctly specified what these should be. The laver was placed between the altar and the congregation, that before they came into the presence of God, in the sight of the congregation, they might wash their hands and their feet. What impression was this to make upon the people? It was to show them that every particle of dust must be put away before they could go into the presence of God; for He was so high and holy that unless they did comply with these conditions, death would follow. {2T 613.2}


Now, is a particle of dust "sin"? No. The One who would cause the death of the priest if he came into the holy sanctuary with the dust was not "sin." The dust itself had no power to cause the death of the priest. Nor could Satan abide the presence of the Almighty and Holy God so as to cause the priest to die within the Holy or Most Holy Place where God's presence was.

As you quoted, APL, Ellen White says "Then the extermination of sin will vindicate God's love and establish His honor before a universe of beings who delight to do His will, and in whose heart is His law" {DA 764.3}.

If sin could or would "exterminate" itself, Jesus need not to have died. What a waste of the life of the Son of God! Why would He have allowed Himself to suffer such cruelty if sin would self-destruct? He would never have made such a great sacrifice in vain; No, no. The cruel death of the Lamb of God upon the cross of Calvary demonstrates plainly that sin requires the death penalty, and cannot be cured without the shedding of blood. Jesus' sacrifice tells us in no uncertain terms that God's law, the same law that requires death for the transgressor, the law that is a transcript of God's character, cannot be changed nor trifled with. God means what He says.

Originally Posted By: dedication
Who are these who would not have "understood"?
Tom, APL, kland, and some others stand at the head of the line of all of us and all of the created universe.

Had God then destroyed Lucifer, when the first seeds of sin were sown, God would have been misunderstood by all. We would all have served Him from fear, and not of love. But when God does at last make a final end to both sin and sinners, it will be seen that He is righteous, fair, and just in doing so.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: Daryl] #189339
05/10/19 08:08 PM
05/10/19 08:08 PM
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Green - Desire of Ages tells clearly, the inevitable results of sin is death, not execution. Sin kills, not God. And the ONLY perfect photograph of the character of God we have is Jesus Christ, which you should believe. The truth about IS THE GOSPEL. It is Good News. Sinner die, but not because God executes them. Satan is the author sin AND ALL ITS RESULTS.

Mark 1:14-15 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, (15) And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent you, and believe the gospel.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: APL] #189340
05/10/19 08:33 PM
05/10/19 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted By: APL
Green - Desire of Ages tells clearly, the inevitable results of sin is death, not execution. Sin kills, not God. And the ONLY perfect photograph of the character of God we have is Jesus Christ, which you should believe. The truth about IS THE GOSPEL. It is Good News. Sinner die, but not because God executes them. Satan is the author sin AND ALL ITS RESULTS.

Mark 1:14-15 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, (15) And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent you, and believe the gospel.


Originally Posted By: Ellen White
My ministering brethren, talk faith; live the truth. We are bought with a price. We need to present the Word of truth as the sin-destroyer. Maintain simplicity. Talk the faith that works by love and purifies the soul. Love as brethren. Be kind, pitiful, courteous. These words of instruction I have been commissioned to give to you, that you may give them to others.--Letter 188, 1906.

Who is "the Word"?

The Word is the sin-destroyer.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: Daryl] #189345
05/10/19 09:59 PM
05/10/19 09:59 PM
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All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. {8T 286.1}

We have only one perfect photograph of God, and this is Jesus Christ. In entering into any line of service we need to ask, “Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? By taking heed thereto according to thy word. With my whole heart have I sought thee; O let me not wander from thy commandments. Thy word have I hid in my heart, that I might not sin against thee.” {Ms70-1899}

Christ came to represent the Father. We behold in him the image of the invisible God. He clothed his divinity with humanity, and came to the world that the erroneous ideas Satan had been the means of creating in the minds of men, in regard to the character of God, might be removed. We could not behold the glory of God unveiled in Christ and live; but as he came in the garb of humanity, we may draw nigh to our Redeemer. We are called upon to behold the Lord our Father in the person of his Son. Christ came in the robe of the flesh, with his glory subdued in humanity, that lost man might communicate with him and live. Through Christ we may comprehend something of him who is glorious in holiness. Jesus is the mystic ladder by which we may mount to behold the glory of the infinite God. By faith we behold Christ standing between humanity and divinity, connecting God and man, and earth and heaven. {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 5}

Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer. {MH 113.1}

In the words, "They shall be all taught of God," Jesus referred to the prophecy of Isaiah: "All thy children shall be taught of the Lord; and great shall be the peace of thy children." Isaiah 54:13. This scripture the Jews appropriated to themselves. It was their boast that God was their teacher. But Jesus showed how vain is this claim; for He said, "Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto Me." Only through Christ could they receive a knowledge of the Father. Humanity could not endure the vision of His glory. Those who had learned of God had been listening to the voice of His Son, and in Jesus of Nazareth they would recognize Him who through nature and revelation has declared the Father. {DA 387.5}

"I am come in My Father's name, and ye receive Me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive." Jesus came by the authority of God, bearing His image, fulfilling His word, and seeking His glory; yet He was not accepted by the leaders in Israel; but when others should come, assuming the character of Christ, but actuated by their own will and seeking their own glory, they would be received. And why? Because he who is seeking his own glory appeals to the desire for self-exaltation in others. To such appeals the Jews could respond. They would receive the false teacher because he flattered their pride by sanctioning their cherished opinions and traditions. But the teaching of Christ did not coincide with their ideas. It was spiritual, and demanded the sacrifice of self; therefore they would not receive it. They were not acquainted with God, and to them His voice through Christ was the voice of a stranger. {DA 212.4}

Jesus came to this earth to represent the character of the Father to the world. He said, "He that hath seen me, hath seen the Father." Satan had misrepresented the character of God, and placed him in a false light. But Jesus came to reveal the Father's love and compassion toward the fallen children of men. When those who profess to be the servants of God draw down their countenances in gloom, and are ever complaining, they misrepresent their heavenly Father. They are confirming the impression that Satan has made concerning his character. They say to the world, "The service of God is a hard service. It is bondage to keep the law of God." This is all false. What is it that puts the shackles on men's wrists? Is it obedience to law? No, indeed. Those who keep the laws walk at liberty. It is the transgressor that is in bondage. The curse of the law is not upon those who are striving to fulfill God's holy precepts through faith in the Redeemer. They are covered with his righteousness. They are at peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. {ST, September 30, 1889 par. 7}

We don't have to repeat Israel's failure to understand the character of God.

Sin kills, not God. God is not the executioner. Repeat (change your mind) and believe the Good News. (Mark 1)


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: Daryl] #189346
05/10/19 10:12 PM
05/10/19 10:12 PM
dedication  Online Content
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PLEASE DO NOT TURN THIS THREAD INTO A DIFFERENT TOPIC

The topic is a BIBLICAL discussion on the lessons of the "Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide.

OFF TOPIC

Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: Daryl] #189347
05/10/19 11:13 PM
05/10/19 11:13 PM
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Lesson two, The War on Earth, the Fall of Man

What were the issues of the rebellion? What is sin?

Why didn't Satan reap the results of sin right away?
Can you give Biblical reasons?

Why did God continue to give Lucifer and his fallen angels life and even allow him access to the tree of good and evil, so he could deceive the human race?
Why was the tree put in the garden in the first place?

What does this have to do WITH THE SANCTUARY
and the truths we believe in-- the sanctuary doctrine?

Why introduce a carrier of a "deadly disease" (to use APL's interpretation) into the garden to infect a newly created race?

Or maybe it he wasn't "carrying a disease" but was waging a battle for the MIND and allegiance and worship?

These are questions that bother a lot of people.


As we've seen --
some simply deny the fact that there was a Lucifer,
or that there was a rebellion PRIOR to the six days of creation -- or even after creation --

That's what the lessons are trying to address ---


Can you give some BIBLICAL answers.
That's what the lessons are trying to do.


And yes, embedded in the last posts are some answers, but they are kind of buried in "an agenda?" Let's try not to turn this into the agenda that has dominated so many threads in the past.


Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: dedication] #189348
05/11/19 01:06 AM
05/11/19 01:06 AM
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Originally Posted By: dedication
PLEASE DO NOT TURN THIS THREAD INTO A DIFFERENT TOPIC

The topic is a BIBLICAL discussion on the lessons of the "Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide.

OFF TOPIC


My first reply was a direct comment on what you wrote, and Desire of Ages (any many other places in the Conflict of the AGes) specifically address you "why" question. The answer stands. If Satan had been left to the inevitable consequence of his sin, he would have perished, but the on looking universe would not have understood, they would have thought that it was God executing him. That answer still stands, and again a direct reply to what you stated. Perhaps it is Green you are concerned about taking off on a tangent for he sure did with his accusations, which are techniques of the opposition. I'm not ashamed of the Gospel.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: APL] #189349
05/11/19 01:33 AM
05/11/19 01:33 AM
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Originally Posted By: APL



My first reply was a direct comment
... specifically address your "why" question. The answer stands. If Satan had been left to the inevitable consequence of his sin, he would have perished, but the on looking universe would not have understood, they would have thought that it was God executing him.

Yes, I agree with that part, and the quotes you shared in that first post. By rebelling against God, Satan cut his connection with the Life Giver and would have died. The onlookers would have thought God was vindictive, they didn't know what sin was, or what effect it had (not only that it results in death) but also how it affects life, bringing all manner pain, damage, and trouble.

The problem was, the quotes were prefaced by comments that baited -- and the bait was taken, and we want this thread to try to stay more or less on topic.

Also -- it's easy and comfortable to quote EGW.
But the Christian world in general don't look to her.
We need to have answers from the Bible for the many people who don't see the "great controversy" picture.

Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: Daryl] #189351
05/11/19 03:21 AM
05/11/19 03:21 AM
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Originally Posted By: dedication
Also -- it's easy and comfortable to quote EGW.
But the Christian world in general don't look to her.
We need to have answers from the Bible for the many people who don't see the "great controversy" picture.
Ah - this is and SDA online forum, correct? But then, John 14:9 comes back in frame, as Jesus is the ONLY perfect picture we have of God, not Balaam's donkey.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: Daryl] #189352
05/11/19 03:41 AM
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The lesson itself focuses on judgment.

That subject is very much a part of the sanctuary message.
Originally Posted By: Bible John
5.21 For as the Father raises up the dead, and quickens them; even so the Son quickens whom he will.
5.22 For the Father judges no man, but hath committed all judgment G2920 unto the Son:
5.23 That all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honors not the Son honors not the Father which hath sent him.
5.24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that hears my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation G2920; but is passed from death unto life.
5.25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
5.26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
5.27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment G2920 also, because he is the Son of man.
5.28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
5.29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation G2920.
5.30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment G2920is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


So, in the above verses we see that --
a decision will be made.
"the Son quickens (gives life) to whom he will."
This decision is based on a judgment
"all judgment is given to the Son (to Christ)
This judgment is based on whether a person "hears and believes on God" they have passed from death onto life.

The passage continues say an hour is coming when the dead shall rise -- some in the resurrection of life to eternal life
-- some to the resurrection of damnation --

So the judgment also has something to do with "doing good" or "doing evil".

The passage takes us back to the judgment every few verses--
Christ was given the power to execute the judgment also, and his judgment is just and in perfect harmony with the Father's will.

Thoughts from "Lesson Two"
You can study the lessons at the links


Satan had been accusing God of being unfair.
His arguments are mirrored in arguments of people since then --
Like Korah telling the God appointed leaders there in the wilderness saying -- we are all holy, you take too much upon yourself telling us what we can and can't do. (See Numbers 16)
Lesson 1 explained Lucifer’s rebellion against God's law of love, for sin is the transgression of God's law, (1 John 3:4) thus his rebellious “sin,” that ultimately led to his downfall was an undermining of God's law. (Ez. 24:15)

In rebelling against the law of love, the result could only lead to hate. Lucifer argued that the government of God needed to be reformed and began a campaign to unseat God.

Lucifer's life was entirely in God's control. God had a choice to make -- continue giving life to this angel, or allow the separation that his rebellion had made to cut the life line. God CHOSE to continue to give life to the rebellious angels.

There is one thing that comes through strongly -- God doesn't ONLY work perfect justice, He wants us to be convinced that everything He does is out of love and justice.

Justice must be recognized as entirely fair. The Bible illustrates this in a vivid way. If a witness came to testify against someone, both the defendant and the accuser had to stand before the Lord, before the priests and the judges (Deuteronomy 19:16, 17).
The judges were to make careful inquiry (Deuteronomy 19:18).

In other words, the accused could not sit as judge over the accuser; neither could the accuser sit as judge over the accused. There must be a third party, a jury, to decide the dispute between both parties.

Using this principle, we can see that had God, being the accused, judged and not sustained life in Lucifer, it would have appeared suspect to the other angels. God was being accused by a greatly beloved and dazzling angel. There must be a third party, a jury, bound by the laws of righteousness, to serve in this case. And who would God select to make up that jury? We are told that the “saints will the world” and “will judge angels.
” (1 Corinthians 6:1–3).


And that is an interesting thought --

Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: APL] #189355
05/12/19 01:05 AM
05/12/19 01:05 AM
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Originally Posted By: APL
Sin kills, not God. God is not the executioner. Repeat (change your mind) and believe the Good News. (Mark 1)

You are greatly mistaken, not knowing the scriptures nor God.

Jesus said, "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved." John 3:17. And so in his ministry, He was continually and earnestly tending to the vine of humanity.

He spoke this parable: "A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, 'Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?' But he answered and said to him, 'Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it. And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.'" Luke 13:6-9

See? But after that, "cut it down!"

And so we read that at the end of time, Satan will throw himself in the Lake of Fire. Yes, God will try to save him but he would not allow God to save him, but would personally plunge into the Lake to destroy himself forever. Before that however, Satan will take all the people on his side and drive them into the Lake. Yes, and then he would grab Death and Hades by the collar bones and throw them into the fiery furnace. ONLY after he would have made certain that everything evil had been destroyed, would he THEN destroy himself forever by taking the plunge -- and so cleanse the universe of all sin. Far be it from God to lift even a pinky against that serpent! See Rev. 20:15.

Something is wrong with my head. Please, would someone kindly help me? The convolution hurts! Should I praise Satan for the good that he would do at the end of time?

///

Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: Daryl] #189357
05/12/19 02:48 AM
05/12/19 02:48 AM
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What happens to the rebellious angels and their followers at the end of this great controversy, is covered in
Lesson 16
.

Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: Daryl] #189360
05/12/19 06:51 AM
05/12/19 06:51 AM
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In the sanctuary service, who killed the lamb?

In the death of Christ, did He die the sinners death? Who and/or what killed Christ?

The plan of salvation is to save us from what?

Here in is the answer.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: Daryl] #189369
05/13/19 02:31 PM
05/13/19 02:31 PM
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Lesson 16: "God’s goal was to make man fireproof again. "

What would that mean if you didn't want to be fireproofed?

Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: Mountain Man] #189372
05/13/19 07:43 PM
05/13/19 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

When considered in the larger context of Isaiah 9 why do we choose to believe verse 6 is referring to Jesus?

Isaiah 8:18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.

Isaiah 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.

Is it possible God uses people, places, and things to symbolize past, present, and future people, places, and events? For example, the King of Tyre. Or, the sons of Isaiah.

That is true.

And so the King of Tyre was like Adam in the Garden of Eden. The entire prophecy begins from chapter 26 of Ezekiel. This is how God speaks of him. "Thus says the Lord God: O Tyre, YOU have said, 'I am perfect in beauty.' Your borders are in the midst of the seas. Your builders have perfected your beauty." Ezekiel 27:3-4

BECAUSE of Tyre's own claim of perfect beauty, God returns the saying in kind and uses it.

Because your heart is lifted up,
And YOU say, 'I am a god,
I sit in the seat of gods,
In the midst of the seas,'
Yet you are a man, and not a god,
Though you set your heart as the heart of a god
(Behold, you are wiser than Daniel!
There is no secret that can be hidden from you!
With your wisdom and your understanding
You have gained riches for yourself,
And gathered gold and silver into your treasuries;
By your great wisdom in trade you have increased your riches,
And your heart is lifted up because of your riches) ...”


Notice the line, "Yet you are a man, and not a god!" This was A MAN who was imagining himself to be greater than he was; hence the comparison to Adam in the Garden of Eden.

Thus says the Lord God:

You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.

You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;

You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.


This was Adam, son of God, brought INTO the Garden of Eden, the House of God, given all things on earth and made father of every human being, messenger of the Most High ... until iniquity was found in him. Then he was cast out of Eden, as it is written, "... for dust you are; and to dust you shall return!" Gen. 3:19

AND what, pray tell, was Adam's sin? He followed his wife. He believed the promise of the serpent, "You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." Gen. 3:4-5

///

Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: dedication] #189373
05/14/19 12:41 AM
05/14/19 12:41 AM
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Originally Posted By: dedication
HC, You could probably appeal to the scriptures that speak of Christ as Michael the Archangel -- or the commander of the heavenly hosts. (Joshua 5:14, Revelation 12:7)

Yet, I believe Christ's place was ON the throne, with the Father, thus receiving the honor of the angels, not holding the position of "covering cherub"

Yes, His
"goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting" (Micah 5:2) That is -- He did mingle with the created, He created them, He was their leader, but He was also God, with the Father, (John 1:1) and He went forth from God, (John 8:42)that is from His place ON the throne of God to mingle with the created.


Also scripture says we were created in God's image --
Cherubim have a rather different "image", Artists paint Lucifer looking like a man with wings, but read Ezekiel 1 and 10 -- cherubim don't look at all like us.

Bottom line, of course, James' question cannot be answered with an affirmative Biblical answer, because the answer was not revealed. Everyone can have an opinion, but no proof. We do know there are more cherubim in heaven, so not knowing who the other cherub was/is presents no problem.


And since it is not a salvation issue, it does not merit much brain power.


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: Daryl] #189374
05/14/19 12:47 AM
05/14/19 12:47 AM
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When the word Tyre is studied: it means: A rock

King of a Rock... Satan wanted Jesus (the Rock) to worship him.

Thus, Satan wanted to be king over Jesus, i.e., to exalt Satan's throne above Jesus.

Food for thought


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: His child] #189376
05/14/19 02:39 AM
05/14/19 02:39 AM
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Originally Posted By: His Child
And since it is not a salvation issue, it does not merit much brain power.

It becomes important in understanding the rejection of man, and why the curse was so severe: "You shall surely die!"

There is New Testament equivalent to the King of Tyre in King Herod (Agrippa).

"Now Herod had been very angry with the people of Tyre and Sidon; but they came to him with one accord, and having made Blastus the king’s personal aide their friend, they asked for peace, because their country was supplied with food by the king’s country. So on a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat on his throne and gave an oration to them. And the people kept shouting, 'The voice of a god and not of a man!' Then immediately an angel of the Lord struck him, because he did not give glory to God. And he was eaten by worms and died." Acts. 12:20-23

Notice the repetition of the same pattern: a man exalting himself above his own state without reason, making himself out to be like God ... and suffering death in the end. I can show you numerous examples of such men, all bearing the legacy of ADAM, the one who was brought into the House of God, even into the council of the Most High ... but being carried away with the dizzying heights to which he was brought, imagined himself to have arrived, only to fall spectacularly.

There is a very similar relationship that exists between parents and children for which reason Jesus solemnly warned, "But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea." Mat. 18:6.

YOU ARE A HUMAN BEING AND NOT GOD. PERIOD. NEVER WAS AND NEVER WILL BE. THEREFORE TO YOUR OWN SELF BE TRUE. WERE A DOG TO CLIMB INTO ITS MASTER'S BED, VICIOUSLY SNAP AT HIM AND SLEEP WITH HIS MASTER'S WIFE, WOULD THAT DOG NOT SURELY DIE?

///

Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: Daryl] #189378
05/14/19 05:10 AM
05/14/19 05:10 AM
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Quote:
Notice the repetition of the same pattern: a man exalting himself above his own state without reason, making himself out to be like God


That is exactly the pattern set by Lucifer, and yes, it has been repeated countless times by humans who live in the world in which Satan/Lucifer wields huge influence. King Herod is a good example of a created being pretending to be god.

But no, Adam was NOT the "covering cherub" that Ezekiel 24 is referring to. There was another right there in the Garden of Eden whose aim and purpose was to turn the newly created pair away from their allegiance to God, and have them under his own domain.

Gen. 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman,
You shall not surely die: For God knows that in the day you eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as gods,


The deceiving serpent was there in the garden

" that great dragon that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole world: (Rev. 12:8)

He is the one the Christ came to "crush"
Gen. 3 And the LORD God said unto the serpent,
..the woman's seed shall bruise thy head, and you shalt bruise his heel."


He is also the one that wanted Christ to worship him.
Talk about a created being trying to exalt himself above God!
Asking Christ, the Son of God to worship him!||

Matt. 4:8 Again, the devil took him up into an exceeding high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And said unto him, All these things will I give you if you will fall down and worship me.


Also Ezekiel gives us a picture of what a cherubim is.

See Ezekiel chapter one and ten. That's where the fallen identity of Ezekiel 24 fits in -- he was once close to God, just like those other cherubs.

Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: Daryl] #189382
05/14/19 06:21 PM
05/14/19 06:21 PM
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James, thank you for replying to my post. I often wonder why God didn't simply spell things out in plain language (instead of using symbols, allegories, prophecies, etc). Any thoughts?

Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: Daryl] #192000
03/08/20 03:25 AM
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So far in the studies this thread was trying to follow, we had:
Lesson One -- the fall of Lucifer
Lesson Two -- the fall of man

Those two lessons showed WHY a plan was made. A plan to deal with the condition of sin that sprung up and was marring God's creation.

http://www.blueprintgps.com/lesson-3

Lesson Three addresses the Sanctuary as a blue print of Salvation.


This sanctuary would contain a symbolic message of the plan of salvation, of the history of the rebellion in heaven, and of the future of mankind. It was to serve as a divine ?GPS,? a blueprint, showing humanity how they could be reconciled to God?how to be saved and how to bridge the separation that sin caused. It would be later said of this sanctuary, or tabernacle, ?Your way, O God, is in the sanctuary. ? (Psalm 77:13).

The lesson then goes on to discuss that the wilderness sanctuary was a miniature replica of God's heavenly sanctuary and how surprised Lucifer would have been to see this being built.
"Being very familiar with the structure, Satan knew that God was giving man the very plan that would deliver them from his oppressive rule."

MY COMMENT

I find this interesting --
I think Lucifer KNEW the heavenly sanctuary (having been there before his fall) and probably knew a bit as to what it stood for.

So -- he had his counterfeits ready.
We were touring in the Mediterranean area and visited several ancient ruins. It was surprising to see that Pagan temples were often built according to the same plan. They had altars for sacrifices in the front. In the temple itself, there was a 1st room, and then in the special back room they would have an huge image of their "god".
Some critics claim this proves Israel copied their pagan neighbors.
But no -- rather it shows that Lucifer (satan) tried to copy the things of God and use them for his own perverted purposes.

The sanctuary that was built under the leadership of Moses, was indeed a replica of heavenly things.
And in its symbols we find the plan of salvation.

Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: Daryl] #192002
03/08/20 11:36 PM
03/08/20 11:36 PM
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Sanctuary -- furniture -- what do they signify?

1. Altar of Sacrifice

2. Laver

3. Table of Showbread

4. Altar of Incense

5. Candlestick

6. Ark of the Covenant



Many studies can be done on this.

I found this one very meaningful (given in Lesson 4)

The Sanctuary illustrates Christ's condescension from the highest heaven to the lowest terrible point He met to save us.

6. (Ark) The throne of heaven (Christ left the throne of heaven to dwell with humanity)

5. (Candlestick) He is the light (John 1:4-5; 3:19 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness;... light is come into the world,

4. (Incense) Jesus lived a life of prayer. He prays for US!!! Like he prayed for Peter, in Luke 22:32

3. (Table of shewbread) (John 6:35 Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger.. 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever:

2. (The laver) The laver stood between the holy sanctuary and the altar of sacrifice. Before the priests entered the sanctuary they washed -- a reminder that cleansing is necessary before entering the holy places. For Christ in His condescension for our redemption the movement was REVERSED.
He Who was absolutely holy, became sin (took our sin). Gethsemane was Christ's baptism in the laver, His holiness absorbing all humanities sin -- being covered by our UNHOLINESS -- a thing so terrible He almost died right there in Gethsemane.

1. (The alter) The cross. Jesus, the Lamb of God, gave Himself a sacrifice, dying our death. That we might live.

Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: Daryl] #192004
03/09/20 01:22 AM
03/09/20 01:22 AM
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If man had kept the law of God, as given to Adam after his fall, preserved by Noah, and observed by Abraham, there would have been no necessity for the ordinance of circumcision. And if the descendants of Abraham had kept the covenant, of which circumcision was a sign, they would never have been seduced into idolatry, nor would it have been necessary for them to suffer a life of bondage in Egypt; they would have kept God's law in mind, and there would have been no necessity for it to be proclaimed from Sinai or engraved upon the tables of stone. And had the people practiced the principles of the Ten Commandments, there would have been no need of the additional directions given to Moses. {PP 364.2}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: Daryl] #192006
03/09/20 02:22 AM
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The truth of the matter is this --
The human race FELL --
They are lost and no amount of commandment keeping and sinners trying to lift themselves up out of sin would have achieved anything.

Why even at Sinai when they had just HEARD the law spoken in awful grandeur, they completely messed up.

The human race NEEDS a Savior.

The sanctuary is a lesson about our Savior, and God's ways are shown in the sanctuary.

Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: Daryl] #192014
03/09/20 07:01 PM
03/09/20 07:01 PM
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Dedication, are you saying that God expected too much of humans even after they fell? That he waited until Abraham to give circumcision, "just because"? And waited to give them the sanctuary?
While there was the plan of a savior, was there always the plan of circumcision and the sanctuary services?

Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: Daryl] #192026
03/11/20 03:40 AM
03/11/20 03:40 AM
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Are you saying the sanctuary should be done away with -- it has no meaning for us today???????????

Are you opposed to the study of the sanctuary? Why would the posts above even be made following my post . I don't see any connection.

No, I am NOT saying God was expecting too much --
The truth is that mankind THINKS they can pull themselves up and do it themselves.
The law cannot save. It has no power or grace to save anyone. No sinner can save themselves, not even the most disciplined and most determined. And we are all sinners, in need of grace.

Mankind needs a Savior, and praise God -- we have a wonderful Savior!

God has made every provision for our salvation!!!
All heaven was poured out to save us.
It's the most wonderful study -- God loves us, He wants us to be saved!!!!
But if His provisions are cast aside -- then of course salvation is impossible without our Savior.

And as soon as sin entered back there in Genesis -- the Savior was promised. The symbolic lamb pointed to the cross.

Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: Daryl] #192027
03/11/20 03:42 AM
03/11/20 03:42 AM
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The sanctuary is to help us understand more about our wonderful Savior.

Originally Posted by dedication
Sanctuary -- furniture -- what do they signify?
Many studies can be done on this.

I found this perspective very meaningful (given in Lesson 4)

The Sanctuary illustrates Christ's condescension from the highest heaven to the lowest terrible point He met to save us.

6. (Ark) The throne of heaven (Christ left the throne of heaven to dwell with humanity)

5. (Candlestick) He is the light (John 1:4-5; 3:19 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness;... light is come into the world,

4. (Incense) Jesus lived a life of prayer. He prays for US!!! Like he prayed for Peter, in Luke 22:32

3. (Table of shewbread) (John 6:35 Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger.. 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever:

2. (The laver) The laver stood between the holy sanctuary and the altar of sacrifice. Before the priests entered the sanctuary they washed -- a reminder that cleansing is necessary before entering the holy places. For Christ in His condescension for our redemption the movement was REVERSED.
He Who was absolutely holy, became sin (took our sin). Gethsemane was Christ's baptism in the laver, His holiness absorbing all humanities sin -- being covered by our UNHOLINESS -- a thing so terrible He almost died right there in Gethsemane.

1. (The alter) The cross. Jesus, the Lamb of God, gave Himself a sacrifice, dying our death. That we might live.


Thus Christ came down to the lowest level -- death, our death, upon the cross. And that's where we must start.


1. (The alter) At the cross of Christ.

Romans 6:6-8 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
(vs 11) Consider (account, reckon) yourself dead to sin.


Why?
Because Christ took your sins, and died the death you deserve, so you can account yourself, consider yourself free from sin!!!!

Romans 5:9-10 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


Justification and reconciliation to God, is found at the cross --
Jesus paid it all, all to Him I owe. Could my tears forever flow, could I doggedly fulfill every law -- NONE of that could EVER atone for a single sin, let alone for the MANY sins of my life. Jesus paid it all.

Isaiah 53:5-6 He was wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

As we, by faith, stand at the cross, our sins are rolled away and we can reckon (consider) ourselves freed !

2) The laver
The laver is for cleansing. Cleansing by the Word is for the sinner who has come to the cross and who desires to serve and walk in the light of Christ's righteousness -- to walk and talk with Him. To follow the Lamb where ever He leads.

3) The Table of Shewbread -- Jesus the living Bread of Life which came down from heaven.
Daily we communion with Him. "eating" partaking of the Word and learning more and more of Him.

4) The Altar of Incense -- prayer! Even our prayers need the grace of God, rising with the merits of Christ. And the Holy Spirit takes our prayers for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Yet our prayers are like a key opening the storehouse of heaven, for all heaven is desirous for our salvation!

5) Candle stick -- the light of Christ. If we walk with Him -- in the light -- we will reflect the light. Reflect His character to the glory of God.

6) Ark -- the judgement.
We have nothing to fear, if we have walked with Christ in the light, through the sanctuary experience.

John 3:19-21 This is the judgement, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doe evil hates the light, and refuses to come to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
But he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.


Come to the light as it is revealed through the sanctuary, that light is Christ, it is eternal life!
And yes, those who come to the light will DO true deeds that are wrought in God -- not in self, but because they are walking with Christ our Saviour.

Last edited by dedication; 03/11/20 04:36 AM.
Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: Daryl] #192028
03/11/20 04:16 AM
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From Patriarchs and Prophets chapter four "The Plan of Redemption"

"The plan by which alone man's salvation could be secured, involved all heaven in its infinite sacrifice....
the Son of God would leave His high position as the Majesty of heaven, appear upon earth and humble Himself as a man, and by His own experience become acquainted with the sorrows and temptations which man would have to endure. ....He must die the cruelest of deaths, lifted up between the heavens and the earth as a guilty sinner. ... He must endure anguish of soul, the hiding of His Father's face, while the guilt of transgression--the weight of the sins of the whole world--should be upon Him." {PP 64}

The first intimidation of redemption was given to Adam and Eve in Genesis 3:15

"Heavenly angels more fully opened to our first parents the plan that had been devised for their salvation. Adam and his companion were assured that notwithstanding their great sin, they were not to be abandoned to the control of Satan. The Son of God had offered to atone, with His own life, for their transgression.....

"Thus were revealed to Adam important events in the history of mankind, from the time when the divine sentence was pronounced in Eden, to the Flood, and onward to the first advent of the Son of God. He was shown that while the sacrifice of Christ would be of sufficient value to save the whole world, many would choose a life of sin rather than of repentance and obedience.

"The sacrificial offerings were ordained by God to be to man a perpetual reminder and a penitential acknowledgment of his sin and a confession of his faith in the promised Redeemer....

"To Adam, the offering of the first sacrifice was a most painful ceremony. His hand must be raised to take life, which only God could give. It was the first time he had ever witnessed death, and he knew that had he been obedient to God, there would have been no death of man or beast. As he slew the innocent victim, he trembled at the thought that his sin must shed the blood of the spotless Lamb of God. This scene gave him a deeper and more vivid sense of the greatness of his transgression, which nothing but the death of God's dear Son could expiate. PP 68



So you see -- the plan was given to mankind as soon as sin entered.
The sacrificial system was in place immediately -- we see Adam. Abel, Noah, Job, Abraham, Jacob -- all participated in the sacrificial system. The Patriarch of the family unit usually preforming the work "priest".
But people forget. Time goes on, the truth the angels shared with Adam, dimmed and even got lost.
They needed reminders, they needed it spelled out, as word of mouth was not reliable.. The sanctuary was a detailed reminder.

Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: APL] #192032
03/11/20 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by dedication
Are you saying the sanctuary should be done away with -- it has no meaning for us today???????????

If man had kept the law of God, as given to Adam after his fall, preserved by Noah, and observed by Abraham, there would have been no necessity for the ordinance of circumcision. And if the descendants of Abraham had kept the covenant, of which circumcision was a sign, they would never have been seduced into idolatry, nor would it have been necessary for them to suffer a life of bondage in Egypt; they would have kept God's law in mind, and there would have been no necessity for it to be proclaimed from Sinai or engraved upon the tables of stone. And had the people practiced the principles of the Ten Commandments, there would have been no need of the additional directions given to Moses. {PP 364.2}
If man had kept the law of God... would there be any need for us to study the sanctuary, at least for having the literal example of the sanctuary?

Re: The Lost Sanctuary Bible Study Guide [Re: Daryl] #192059
03/14/20 09:59 PM
03/14/20 09:59 PM
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To Adam and Eve angel's more fully revealed the plan of salvation. "the Son of God would leave His high position as the Majesty of heaven...die the cruelest of deaths, lifted up between the heavens and the earth as a guilty sinner...He must endure anguish of soul, the hiding of His Father's face, while the guilt of transgression--the weight of the sins of the whole world--should be upon Him." {PP 64}
To Adam, the offering of the first sacrifice was a most painful ceremony. His hand must be raised to take life, which only God could give. It was the first time he had ever witnessed death, and he knew that had he been obedient to God, there would have been no death of man or beast. As he slew the innocent victim, he trembled at the thought that his sin must shed the blood of the spotless Lamb of God. This scene gave him a deeper and more vivid sense of the greatness of his transgression, which nothing but the death of God's dear Son could expiate. PP 68


Yes, had Adam and Eve AND ALL their descendants continued with this "vivid sense of the greatness of transgression" and kept their focus on the Son of God Who alone could expiate their sin and reconcile them to God, history would have been different. IF the human race had been like Enoch -- walking and talking with God it would have been very different.

BUT the human race largely forgot God. SO YES we NEED to study the sanctuary, for the literal example is a pattern for truths unseen and unrecognized without it.

Before the flood EVIL pretty much took over, and though the earth was cleansed by a flood, and Noah had knowledge of the plan of salvation, it wasn't long after that the human race again turned to IDOLATRY with it's fertility rites and sexual veneration. So God gave His people circumcision. Had they grasped the meaning, that it was a mark of separation from the idolatrous practices, signifying their commitment to follow God, they would NEVER have been seduced into idolatry. But they didn't grasp it's meaning and participated in the practices of idolatry with all it's fertility excitement.

The beautiful truths revealed to Adam and passed on to those of his descendants that were receptive, were almost completely lost?

The sanctuary was not a "new salvation plan" it was instituted to be a VISUAL of Christ's work of redemption. To keep in people's minds the very truths first revealed to Adam outside the garden gate.
But human beings (and we are no exception) again lost the meaning. They separated the services from the ONE to Whom those services pointed.

Yet they all pointed to CHRIST and His work of salvation.

When Christ died upon the cross, the earthly sanctuary ceased, BUT now people tend to FORGET in the opposite side of things. We can't really understand the cross and Christ's priestly ministry until we understand the sanctuary which pointed to these events.

Even the meaning of the cross is not understood outside of the sanctuary. The cleansing blood is explained in the sanctuary. Without the sanctuary people really don't see Christ's death as meaning any more than simply someone dying because there is sin in the world.

Also, the glorious work of Christ, our high Priest in the heavenly sanctuary, isn't understood when the earthly illustrations are removed and counted as irrelevant.

These things were given to us as examples for our learning and understanding.
Though we no longer practice the sacrificial system, for Christ is the Lamb of God slain for us, and is alive as our High Priest, yet the examples, the teaching object lessons, STILL are necessary to UNDERSTAND His work in the plan for our salvation.

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Moderator  dedication, Rick H 

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