That seems to set a reason for the saved to be good and not err again. But what would be the purpose for punishing those who are lost?

It will be to show that God is fair. How fair would it be, after all, for a man to have gotten away with the cruel abuse and murder of 85 women, but never have been caught and punished for it--and having then died peacefully in his sleep? Not only would the victims include those whom he had murdered, but also it would include large numbers beyond that who were the victims' family members and friends. The amount of pain caused would be tremendous--and, yet God would do nothing about it?

Let's just imagine, for a moment, that your sister were violently violated and murdered, and the man was apprehended and brought before the judge. The judge says to you "You are a Christian. You should love all people and forgive. I, therefore, declare that this man is forgiven and may walk free without punishment." What would you think of such a judge?

Likewise, the Universe is watching the Judge of all. Is He fair? We will know that He is fair by His handling of the judgment of the wicked.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Sin causes death, not God. The pagan idea that God has to inflict suffering to be just is just that, not God way of acting but Satan's. welcome to the Great Controversy.

In the beginning of the Great Controversy, if Satan had been left to reap the INEVITABLE results of his sin, He would have perished. But the on looking universe would not have understood this was the natural consequences of sin, and would have served God from fear. Read Desire of Ages chapter 79. It is clear.

Green - you want a god of fear. You can have it. That is not the God I worship.

According to your view of sin and punishment, there is no need at all of a judgment. Therefore, if the judgment be real, your view be false.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Then you worship a foreign and fake god.

Of the True and Living Almighty, it is written: "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, 'Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,' says the Lord. And again, 'The Lord will judge His people.' It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." Heb. 10:26-32

Water is good but when it rises up in a rage, how devastating it is for those caught in its path. Only a fool would walk carelessly beside a gentle river overflowing its banks when the earth below it shakes mightily, saying, "I know this river. It is a Lamb."




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Still a good question. But I do not understand it. Here is what Jesus said about it:


To what purpose does Jesus punish them? Why not leave them dead? Isn't being dead and missing out on eternal life in Paradise punishment enough? I suspect allowing them to suffer in duration and in intensity proportionate to their sinfulness has more to do with securing peace for eternity than it has to do with the unsaved getting what they deserve. In the same way Jesus had to suffer and die for the sins of the saved (sin cannot simply be overlooked) so too the unsaved must suffer and die for their sins. The first death doesn't count. It doesn't pay our sin debt of death. To pay their sin debt the unsaved must be resurrected. ". . . for death must come in consequence of man's sin." CON 21.3

That is where SDA deviate from the Bible. The second death, according to the Scriptures, is the second DEATH. And is the death of the soul. Jesus said, "Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Mat. 10:28

• The first death is the death of the body, the soul continuing in deep unconscious sleep.
• But the second death is the death of the soul, eternally destroyed.

The resurrection therefore is the resurrection of the continuing soul, to which is granted either eternal life or destroyed forever. Jesus said, "No one takes [My Life] from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again." John 10:18. For us, we can paraphrase his words this way: "No one takes my life from me, but I live or die according to the will of God. He has THE SOLE power to lay me down to sleep and raise me up again, to grant me eternal life or cast me off that I perish and am no more forever and ever."

There is ABSOLUTELY no one to one correspondence between various sins and length of time burning and begging and screaming your head off. God has no interest whatsoever in teaching you a lesson when you are already condemned to vanish into nothing as though you were never born.

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Sounds like wise words to me.

MM, What do you think of Jame's statement? Do you think "punish" may not be the correct word here as there would be no point to it?

Could the word "punishment" mean something more or different than what we would mean by it? Maybe penalty or judgment or result/reward?

I believe that was referring to Jesus' death.


In reference from the saved, do you think by that time in history, the saved won't need any additional demonstration for future obedience?

Kland, Jesus said - "Thou shalt surely die." This death, no doubt, refers to the second death. It cannot refer to the first death (sleep) because the plan of salvation protects us from suffering the natural consequences of sinning the instant we sin. The first death is, as it were, an unnatural death made possible when Jesus became the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." "The wages of sin is death." Not sleep. Unsaved sinners must pay their sin debt of death. They rejected Jesus' Substitutional death. Since "death must come in consequence" of sin, it stands to reason they must be awakened to pay this debt. Rejecting Jesus deserves punishment. In so doing they crucify Him afresh. Being born into this world is not a choice. We should not have to suffer because of it. However, rejecting Jesus and His offer to make it out alive is on them. Resurrecting them so they can experience their accumulated sins is right and righteous. Jesus will remove the protection His salvation affords and they will suffer the natural consequences of sinning and rejecting Jesus. Jesus had to die to save the saved. In a similar way, the unsaved must suffer the second death because it is right and natural.

Yes, I agree sinners will die. But the question I have is to do with the word "punish", if that's the correct word as we use it.

Suppose you had a daughter who did something wrong. Would you punish her and why?