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Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? #191372
12/20/19 08:20 PM
12/20/19 08:20 PM
Rick H  Offline
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2500+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,756
Florida, USA

Many people know about God, but less actually are converted and follow God. As Christ did at Gethsemane we must set aside all and follow Gods will. Jesus came across someone who asked this same question:
Matthew 19:16-17
"16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.'

This young ruler obviously lived ?a good life.? He?d convinced himself that he had ?made it? in both before others and in his spiritual life. Yet, for all that, he sensed something was missing.

Was Jesus telling the rich young ruler to do something meritorious when He told him to keep the commandments? Obviously not, for salvation is "not of works, lest any man should boast." But was Jesus telling this man plainly what the condition of salvation was? If we will enter into eternal life, what is necessary?

What was Christ saying to the rich young ruler. Was obedience a condition or a requirement that we must meet before God can save us? If we look, Christ wanted more than obedience, Christ was showing that true obedience includes our outward deeds, but it is not just our outward deeds. True obedience is both the outward deed and the inner motive that prompts the deed.

We see Christ get to this with the rich young ruler:
Matthew 19:20-22
"20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions."

In order to be saved a person must be converted, and conversion is what makes true obedience possible. Unconverted people cannot truly obey God, they can "talk" about God, but not fully "walk" with Him. The condition or the basis for our salvation is faith. The result of our salvation is obedience. Unconverted people can?t obey. Converted people will obey.

Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? [Re: Rick H] #191394
12/23/19 08:48 AM
12/23/19 08:48 AM
Daryl  Offline

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23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 24,870
Nova Scotia, Canada
I don't see obedience as a condition of salvation, but I do see obedience as a result of salvation.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? [Re: Rick H] #191396
12/23/19 07:38 PM
12/23/19 07:38 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Faith without works is dead. It is not faith. It is vain presumption. If the condition of life is faith, then works are necessarily a good part of that condition. And Mrs. White agrees.

Originally Posted by Ellen White
The covenant of grace was first made with man in Eden, when after the Fall, there was given a divine promise that the seed of the woman should bruise the serpent's head. To all men this covenant offered pardon, and the assisting grace of God for future obedience through faith in Christ. It also promised them eternal life on condition of fidelity to God's law. Thus the patriarchs received the hope of salvation. {FLB 77.2}


"...fidelity to God's law" is the equivalent of obedience, don't you think? Then obedience is indeed the condition of our salvation.

Originally Posted by Ellen White
The most striking feature of this covenant of peace is the exceeding richness of the pardoning mercy expressed to the sinner if he repents and turns from his sin. The Holy Spirit describes the gospel as salvation through the tender mercies of our God. "I will be merciful to their unrighteousness," the Lord declares of those who repent, "and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more" (Hebrews 8:12). Does God turn from justice in showing mercy to the sinner? No; God cannot dishonor His law by suffering it to be transgressed with impunity. Under the new covenant, perfect obedience is the condition of life. If the sinner repents and confesses his sins, he will find pardon. By Christ's sacrifice in his behalf, forgiveness is secured for him. Christ has satisfied the demands of the law for every repentant, believing sinner. . . . {AG 138.4}


God helps us to attain perfect obedience.

Originally Posted by Ellen White
Before the believer is held out the wonderful possibility of being like Christ, obedient to all the principles of the law. But of himself man is utterly unable to reach this condition. The holiness that God's Word declares he must have before he can be saved is the result of the working of divine grace as he bows in submission to the discipline and restraining influences of the Spirit of truth. Man's obedience can be made perfect only by the incense of Christ's righteousness, which fills with divine fragrance every act of obedience. The part of the Christian is to persevere in overcoming every fault. Constantly he is to pray to the Saviour to heal the disorders of his sin-sick soul. He has not the wisdom or the strength to overcome; these belong to the Lord, and He bestows them on those who in humiliation and contrition seek Him for help. {AG 217.3}


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? [Re: Rick H] #191397
12/23/19 08:48 PM
12/23/19 08:48 PM
Daryl  Offline

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 24,870
Nova Scotia, Canada
If obedience is a condition of our salvation, then how do you understand Ephesians 2:8-9???

Ephesians 2:8 AKJV For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? [Re: Daryl] #191399
12/23/19 11:09 PM
12/23/19 11:09 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted by Daryl
If obedience is a condition of our salvation, then how do you understand Ephesians 2:8-9???

Ephesians 2:8 AKJV For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

All we like sheep have gone astray. All have sinned. Because God's law has been broken, no amount of future obedience can remove the penalty of transgression from us--which penalty is death. The gift of God saves us from the penalty we have already incurred by our past record. That gift cannot be merited by any special work on our part; but it must be received "through faith" which means by obedience to God's commandments. "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15). "And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments." (Exodus 20:6). We will not be saved without loving Jesus, and we do not love Him if we are not obeying Him. "But without faith it is impossible to please [God]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." (Hebrews 11:6). And "even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17). "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Therefore shall ye keep my commandments, and do them: I am the LORD." (Leviticus 22:31)

As the will of man co-operates with the will of God, it becomes omnipotent. Whatever is to be done at His command may be accomplished in His strength. All His biddings are enablings. {COL 333.1}

God doesn't command us to do the impossible; that would hardly be fair. Therefore, when God commands, we must believe in faith that it is possible to carry out His orders; and, like the paralytic at the pool, make the choice to stand up and walk, without saying to ourselves in disbelief that it is not possible to do so.

That said, this is my "knowledge" and not my experience. I struggle with the application myself. I see myself as too weak and sinful to ever reach Heaven. I walk in faith in terms of my financial situation and my work for God, and I have seen miracles as He has led in those areas, but see myself, personally, as entirely unworthy with respect to my personal spiritual relationship to God. I always desire to serve Him, and I do my best to that end, but feel my own sinfulness mars the work, never reaching even the standard I would set for myself, much less the one God would have me to reach. My life's goal, it seems, has always been to help others reach Heaven insofar as possible, whilst for myself, I have little hope of reaching that fair shore. I feel totally polluted and filthy, and the more I try to be like Christ, the more I seem to be just the opposite. To keep from utter despair, I busy myself with doing as much as I can to support God's work where I am.

I have exceptional abilities, and am privileged to understand and know the Bible and the writings of Mrs. White as virtually no other in my field of work could compare. I do not say this in pride, for sometimes I wish to be as one of them--feeling that the greater responsibilities and the greater accountability for them rest heavily on me. I know that I am a ten-talent man, and it is so difficult to put them all to proper use. I get tired. I get discouraged. I feel lazy when not doing something productive for God, like I'm hiding my talents in the ground; yet I feel I don't have the energy to push much harder than I already do. More than anything in the world, I just wish I could know and feel that God accepts me, and that my service will not have been in vain with respect to the salvation of others.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? [Re: Daryl] #191419
12/27/19 03:20 PM
12/27/19 03:20 PM
J
jackson  Offline
Posting New Member
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 19
Oregon, USA
Obedience is the fruit of faith- not of salvation.

Paul in Hebrews 5:9 shows clearly that obedience is the fruit of faith by proclaiming that Jesus grants eternal salvation to them that obey him. If obedience were the fruit of salvation, then it would not be a requirement for salvation, but Paul clearly states that it is a requirement

The faith that justifies always produces first true repentance, and then good works, which are the fruit of that faith. There is no saving faith that does not produce good fruit. .. {3SM 195.2}


There is no greater deception than for man to suppose that in any difficulty he can find a better guide than God, a wiser counselor in any emergency, a stronger defense under any circumstance.... Ellen White
Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? [Re: jackson] #191424
12/28/19 12:29 PM
12/28/19 12:29 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted by jackson
Obedience is the fruit of faith- not of salvation.

Paul in Hebrews 5:9 shows clearly that obedience is the fruit of faith by proclaiming that Jesus grants eternal salvation to them that obey him. If obedience were the fruit of salvation, then it would not be a requirement for salvation, but Paul clearly states that it is a requirement

The faith that justifies always produces first true repentance, and then good works, which are the fruit of that faith. There is no saving faith that does not produce good fruit. .. {3SM 195.2}

welcome to Maritime! I hope to hear your perspectives more often here!

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? [Re: Green Cochoa] #191428
12/30/19 04:27 AM
12/30/19 04:27 AM
His child  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020
Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,673
TN, USA
Originally Posted by Daryl
I don't see obedience as a condition of salvation, but I do see obedience as a result of salvation.


Daryl,

How does your statement compare to Adam and Eve's situation?
They were saved while they were obedient.
When they choose to disobey they were lost.
Is the condition of obedience different now than it was before the sin of disobedience?


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? [Re: His child] #191511
01/17/20 11:14 PM
01/17/20 11:14 PM
dedication  Offline

Global Moderator
5000+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 5,485
Canada
Originally Posted by His child
Originally Posted by Daryl
I don't see obedience as a condition of salvation, but I do see obedience as a result of salvation.

Daryl,
How does your statement compare to Adam and Eve's situation?
They were saved while they were obedient.
When they choose to disobey they were lost.
Is the condition of obedience different now than it was before the sin of disobedience?


Yes, it is very different.
They were created perfect, sinless, in harmony with God and righteousness.
They didn't NEED salvation. They didn't NEED reconciliation. Their obedience was part of their harmony with God.

As for us -- we were born with a carnal nature that manifested itself and developed patterns of disharmony with God's ways before we even reached the age where we could think logically about it. Without Christ we are "dead in trespasses and sin". And a "dead" (spiritually dead) person can't bring himself into life and obedience no matter how hard they try.

So yes, it is DIFFERENT.

First God has to bring us back into reconciliation with Himself.
We cannot earn that reconciliation. We NEED salvation and reconciliation desperately, and until we realize that, we are just doing "dead works" by going through strict forms of obedience hoping to become good enough so God will accept us.

Yet God draws us, and we are to cast our helpless souls upon Christ, casting all our self righteousness, self polished obedience and pride upon Jesus and plead with Him to save the poor, blind, wretched sinner that we are.
These God will never cast out!
He not only forgives, and places Christ's merits and righteousness on their record, but also gives them His Spirit.
Ezekiel tells us 36:26-27 "new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them]."

FAITH
When you get off your knees, do you have FAITH to believe you are a new creature in Christ? Forgiven, clothed in Christ's righteousness, a Son or daughter of the heavenly king?
Do you have the FAITH to believe you are Christ's ambassador here on earth?
Do you have FAITH to believe you are saved?
Do you have FAITH to believe that God will change the "inner" (heart and mind) to cause you to walk in His will, when you sincerely pray giving your life completely to Him.?

The battle really isn't so much against sin.
The battle is to keep ourselves in the keeping of the Lord -- abiding in Him, tuned in to His voice, really getting to know Him (yes we need to diligently seek Him in the pages of scripture, but don't be content to just know about Him, though that is necessary in order to know Him) but to really KNOW He is "there all the time" To realize He is speaking to through those scriptures.
If we have that FAITH that we are His, saved by His grace, and have FAITH that He is always right there, His Spirit leading us, how will we live?

Our obedience is a SIGN that we are walking with Christ, listening to His Spirit. It's a sign that we've been with Jesus, and are with Jesus, and becoming more and more like Him.
It's by Christ that we are saved.
And it is with Christ that we live.
As His ambassadors we long to portray His character through our lives.
When we sin we are dismayed that we misrepresented Him, the One Who saved us.

Re: Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation? [Re: Rick H] #191594
01/24/20 11:34 PM
01/24/20 11:34 PM
J
jackson  Offline
Posting New Member
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 19
Oregon, USA
, Yes, obedience is a condition for salvation.

Jesus said ; " Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Matt 7:21


..... God has set forth in His word the conditions upon which every soul will be elected to eternal life--obedience to His commandments, through faith in Christ.... {PP 207.4}


There is no greater deception than for man to suppose that in any difficulty he can find a better guide than God, a wiser counselor in any emergency, a stronger defense under any circumstance.... Ellen White
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