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Re: Can someone please explain to me about Progressive Adventism? [Re: Garywk] #196619
09/22/23 07:41 PM
09/22/23 07:41 PM
Rick H  Offline

Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,114
Florida, USA
Originally Posted by Garywk
Originally Posted by Kevin H
Our pioneers came from many different churches. Many were kicked out of their churches for believing ideas beyond their narrow creeds. They came together and formed a church that only had a handful of "Landmark" or "Pillars" and as long as they were not fanatical they had the freedom to study and follow the dictates of their conscience.

To clarify some we would from time to time have a list of beliefs, but they differed from creeds by a creed being a definition of what was believed. Our list of beliefs were more of a generalized neighborhood where most of us basically hung around. And traditionally the list of beliefs would be written in fairly vague language to include as many as possible.

As we were approaching 1888 we had a conservative publishing house (The Review and Herald) and a more progressive publishing house (the Pacific Press). This upset many members and many wanted the Review to take over the Pacific Press and to bring it into an orthodox line. Mrs. White stopped this and said that we need both views and listed the landmarks and said that the complaint of the progressives removing the landmarks is not true.

In the late 1800s Fundamentalism became popular in Christian churches. Our church has struggled with this. (See books such as Knight's "The Afterlife of Ellen G. White" the biographies on W. W. Prescott and A. G. Daniels, the two books by Campbell on the 1919 Bible Conference and on the 1922 General Conference.)

Now, much of what was originally called Progressive Adventism was the post 1888 writings of Mrs. White, as well as the approach to Adventism as held by people like Willie, Prescott and Daniels. On the other hand people like Elder Holmes, Washburn and Wilkinson felt that these others have gone too far. When I was at Andrews I read many, many letters between those of the school represented by Holmes and Washburn and Mrs. White and/or Willie. Now, while I did not read this accusation in the letters they wrote to Mrs. White, I did find some handbills from their followers. These handbills accused Mrs. White of apostacy in her saying that her writings were not infallible, in teaching the trinity, and in being critical of these "faithful" pastors. They recommended only reading her through those pastors, especially her post 1888 writings, since these pastors knew what she wrote that came from God and what came from her apostasy. Some suggested that a Jesuit had worked his way into her inner circle and was controlling her. One even suggested that she had become a Jesuit and her assignment was to destroy the church where she used to be a true prophet of God to lead the church into following her apostasy.

Elder Andresen developed a way of taking the views of people like Washburn but adding the trinity to it, and his view became popular.

After Mrs. White died, and later with the deaths of Willie, Daniels and Prescott, they somehow changed from being the enemy bringing a progressive view of Adventism to cause apostacy in the church, to making them saints and blaming the ideas they did not like on others.

Now, people such as Holmes and Washburn etc. were faithful Adventists. These were all vialed and useful voices in Adventism, but different threads in the tapestry of Adventism. At the better points in our history our different threads respected each other and learned how to work together. At our lower points we have one subgroup or another decide that they are the ONLY true version of Adventism and that the rest of us are nominal Adventists.

In the 1950s there was a book written. I wish that it wasn't. It is not a very good book, but not a horrible book either. The book was "Questions on Doctrine". But some of our members, especially those of the Washburn and Andresen thread of Adventism, have filtered their beliefs through that book and removed anything that sounds like that book. There was a spirit of "Questions on Doctrine said it, I don't believe it, and that settles it for me."

Justification and Sanctification are two sides of the same coin. Justification is our moment by moment trust in Jesus, and it results in Sanctification. Now, some on the more so called "conservative" side ended up focusing more on Sanctification and this became popular in Adventism in the time between 1922 and the 1940s.

Now, in the 1970s we had the issues of Desmond Ford's who went to the other extreme and had a Justification being the big thing and sanctification only being secondary. Now the one group made things such as the investigative judgment sound very scary, and the needing to do this and that and the other thing. Ford gave peace to those who were struggling with the stress of trying to do just what is right. The truth has pretty much been ripped in about half, but with very, very gagged edges, but between the two schools of Washburn/Andresen on the one side and Ford on the other. They both tend to use their approximately half the truth against the other half. Unfortunately those who are on the Washburn/Andresen side does not respect that there is a strong tapestry of Adventism. They want to picture everything as faithful them (with a Fundamentalist view of their favorite Ellen White quotes, which she and Willie were very unhappy with) and that if you are not fully on their side then the only other option is the Fordites.

It's late and I need to go, but this is a start. You can see more of the history in those books I recommended. Oh, also, there are things that have been discovered in better understanding of the Hebrew, Greek and historical context that show more in the Bible, but which does not always hold on to traditions. Today's decedents of the Washburn/Andresen school (I pick these two names since they are the same idea but Washburn was very anti-trinitarian, while Andresen found a way to include the trinity in this generalized school of thought). want to hold on to church history and not look at what we have learned in the languages and culture, which I do not believe that Washburn or Andresen would pass off so quickly. So there is a mixture of both Adventism and wanting to hold on to all the traditions of conservative Christianity.

A couple of other resources. This may be difficult to find but in the 1980s a couple from Union College Ralph and Betrice Neal (or Neil?) would travel and give a wonderful presentation on how the two sides have divided Bible truth in half and how to unify the truth. Also, the books by A. LeRoy Moore such as "Theology in Crisis" or "The Theology Crisis" and he had two other books, one on "Questions on Doctrine" gives a good history and balance. And if you can get a hold of the original printing of the book "Sanctuary and the Atonement" by the Biblical Resource Committee of the General Conference, sadly not in the reprints (although you can find much of the same information in the book on where Mrs. White's critics are wrong) but the three chapters "The Mighty Opposites: The Atonement in the writings of Ellen G. White" parts 1 and 2, and "We Must All Appear: The Investigative Judgement in the writings of Ellen G. White".

We are trying to be fair to our understanding of what the Bible teaches, and how we understand Mrs. White to wish her writings to be used. Any and all of these views can be considered progressive adventism, and not just be limited to the extremes of Fordism. I'll try to come back to write more.


This debate didn't start due to Washburn/Andresen differences. This debate started in 1888 when the church rejected the righteousness by faith message. The best argument I know of for that pov is that we are still here rather than in heaven as Ellen White told us Jesus could have come in her day not once but twice. I see some movement back to that message, but also see large swaths of the church off in what can only be seen as heresy from the SDA perspective.


The Devil saw the failure and used it to split the church, but Ellen White gently pointed them in the right direction, and took years but the church finally got on track.

Re: Can someone please explain to me about Progressive Adventism? [Re: Rick H] #196626
09/23/23 07:53 AM
09/23/23 07:53 AM
G
Garywk  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

Veteran Member
Joined: Jul 2023
Posts: 982
Colville, Wa
Originally Posted by Rick H
Originally Posted by Garywk
Originally Posted by Kevin H
Our pioneers came from many different churches. Many were kicked out of their churches for believing ideas beyond their narrow creeds. They came together and formed a church that only had a handful of "Landmark" or "Pillars" and as long as they were not fanatical they had the freedom to study and follow the dictates of their conscience.

To clarify some we would from time to time have a list of beliefs, but they differed from creeds by a creed being a definition of what was believed. Our list of beliefs were more of a generalized neighborhood where most of us basically hung around. And traditionally the list of beliefs would be written in fairly vague language to include as many as possible.

As we were approaching 1888 we had a conservative publishing house (The Review and Herald) and a more progressive publishing house (the Pacific Press). This upset many members and many wanted the Review to take over the Pacific Press and to bring it into an orthodox line. Mrs. White stopped this and said that we need both views and listed the landmarks and said that the complaint of the progressives removing the landmarks is not true.

In the late 1800s Fundamentalism became popular in Christian churches. Our church has struggled with this. (See books such as Knight's "The Afterlife of Ellen G. White" the biographies on W. W. Prescott and A. G. Daniels, the two books by Campbell on the 1919 Bible Conference and on the 1922 General Conference.)

Now, much of what was originally called Progressive Adventism was the post 1888 writings of Mrs. White, as well as the approach to Adventism as held by people like Willie, Prescott and Daniels. On the other hand people like Elder Holmes, Washburn and Wilkinson felt that these others have gone too far. When I was at Andrews I read many, many letters between those of the school represented by Holmes and Washburn and Mrs. White and/or Willie. Now, while I did not read this accusation in the letters they wrote to Mrs. White, I did find some handbills from their followers. These handbills accused Mrs. White of apostacy in her saying that her writings were not infallible, in teaching the trinity, and in being critical of these "faithful" pastors. They recommended only reading her through those pastors, especially her post 1888 writings, since these pastors knew what she wrote that came from God and what came from her apostasy. Some suggested that a Jesuit had worked his way into her inner circle and was controlling her. One even suggested that she had become a Jesuit and her assignment was to destroy the church where she used to be a true prophet of God to lead the church into following her apostasy.

Elder Andresen developed a way of taking the views of people like Washburn but adding the trinity to it, and his view became popular.

After Mrs. White died, and later with the deaths of Willie, Daniels and Prescott, they somehow changed from being the enemy bringing a progressive view of Adventism to cause apostacy in the church, to making them saints and blaming the ideas they did not like on others.

Now, people such as Holmes and Washburn etc. were faithful Adventists. These were all vialed and useful voices in Adventism, but different threads in the tapestry of Adventism. At the better points in our history our different threads respected each other and learned how to work together. At our lower points we have one subgroup or another decide that they are the ONLY true version of Adventism and that the rest of us are nominal Adventists.

In the 1950s there was a book written. I wish that it wasn't. It is not a very good book, but not a horrible book either. The book was "Questions on Doctrine". But some of our members, especially those of the Washburn and Andresen thread of Adventism, have filtered their beliefs through that book and removed anything that sounds like that book. There was a spirit of "Questions on Doctrine said it, I don't believe it, and that settles it for me."

Justification and Sanctification are two sides of the same coin. Justification is our moment by moment trust in Jesus, and it results in Sanctification. Now, some on the more so called "conservative" side ended up focusing more on Sanctification and this became popular in Adventism in the time between 1922 and the 1940s.

Now, in the 1970s we had the issues of Desmond Ford's who went to the other extreme and had a Justification being the big thing and sanctification only being secondary. Now the one group made things such as the investigative judgment sound very scary, and the needing to do this and that and the other thing. Ford gave peace to those who were struggling with the stress of trying to do just what is right. The truth has pretty much been ripped in about half, but with very, very gagged edges, but between the two schools of Washburn/Andresen on the one side and Ford on the other. They both tend to use their approximately half the truth against the other half. Unfortunately those who are on the Washburn/Andresen side does not respect that there is a strong tapestry of Adventism. They want to picture everything as faithful them (with a Fundamentalist view of their favorite Ellen White quotes, which she and Willie were very unhappy with) and that if you are not fully on their side then the only other option is the Fordites.

It's late and I need to go, but this is a start. You can see more of the history in those books I recommended. Oh, also, there are things that have been discovered in better understanding of the Hebrew, Greek and historical context that show more in the Bible, but which does not always hold on to traditions. Today's decedents of the Washburn/Andresen school (I pick these two names since they are the same idea but Washburn was very anti-trinitarian, while Andresen found a way to include the trinity in this generalized school of thought). want to hold on to church history and not look at what we have learned in the languages and culture, which I do not believe that Washburn or Andresen would pass off so quickly. So there is a mixture of both Adventism and wanting to hold on to all the traditions of conservative Christianity.

A couple of other resources. This may be difficult to find but in the 1980s a couple from Union College Ralph and Betrice Neal (or Neil?) would travel and give a wonderful presentation on how the two sides have divided Bible truth in half and how to unify the truth. Also, the books by A. LeRoy Moore such as "Theology in Crisis" or "The Theology Crisis" and he had two other books, one on "Questions on Doctrine" gives a good history and balance. And if you can get a hold of the original printing of the book "Sanctuary and the Atonement" by the Biblical Resource Committee of the General Conference, sadly not in the reprints (although you can find much of the same information in the book on where Mrs. White's critics are wrong) but the three chapters "The Mighty Opposites: The Atonement in the writings of Ellen G. White" parts 1 and 2, and "We Must All Appear: The Investigative Judgement in the writings of Ellen G. White".

We are trying to be fair to our understanding of what the Bible teaches, and how we understand Mrs. White to wish her writings to be used. Any and all of these views can be considered progressive adventism, and not just be limited to the extremes of Fordism. I'll try to come back to write more.


This debate didn't start due to Washburn/Andresen differences. This debate started in 1888 when the church rejected the righteousness by faith message. The best argument I know of for that pov is that we are still here rather than in heaven as Ellen White told us Jesus could have come in her day not once but twice. I see some movement back to that message, but also see large swaths of the church off in what can only be seen as heresy from the SDA perspective.


The Devil saw the failure and used it to split the church, but Ellen White gently pointed them in the right direction, and took years but the church finally got on track.


I wouldn't say the devil saw the failure. He caused it, just like he has the 100+ year delay since then. When we walked away from the third angels message, the message for the end time, that wasn't God's doing nor desire. We SDAs are responsible for more than 100 million war deaths since Ellen White died and untold misery and suffering just because we wouldn't give up our sins.

Re: Can someone please explain to me about Progressive Adventism? [Re: TheophilusOne] #196744
10/09/23 09:44 PM
10/09/23 09:44 PM
Kevin H  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 628
New York
I've been trying to think of clearer ways to help understand this. I've been wanting to type when home then cut and paste when I came online. But things have been busy.

A couple of things that came to mind is that on the one hand Seventh-day Adventism is a denomination, but on the other hand we are also a movement that Transends denominations and at times even religions. Our pioneers were from a wide range of denominations. They were kicked out of their beloved churches for their belief in Miller's message. They tried to form a church that had room for different understandings. They had only a handful of landmarks, and beyond these they were free to think and discuss. From time to time we form what we call lists of fundamental beliefs, which looks a lot like a creed. However, they are different from creeds. Creeds define what a denomination believes. To be a member you have to be with in the creed. They are like a walled city. However, our different lists of fundamental beliefs differ from creeds in at least two ways: The first, until 2015, they have always been written in a deliberate vague language that members could understand in different ways. In 2015 there were a few lines that our leadership felt needed to be more precise. Of course there were mixed emotions fearful that this action was trying to change from a list of fundamental beliefs to a creed. Second is while creeds are like a walled city that the members live within. Our fundamental belief lists are more like a generalized neighborhood where most of us live in one way or another. And we are more willing to update and modify the list as we learn more.

Now when we last updated the list with our 27 (later adding one more to make it 28) there was a book published with it. The 27 was our official list of fundamental beliefs, however the book gave to the list ways how some of our church leaders wanted the 27 to be understood and applied.

All of this already makes Seventh-day Adventism more of a tapestry of beliefs.

A second part is that, as some of my professors used to say "For some reason Seventh-day Adventist have a neurotic need to prove to the world that we are good Baptists."

In addition to our wanting to prove to the world that we are good Baptists, there is also the influence from reformation theology and Methodism. These two approaches have also colored how we apply what we understand from the Bible. With in the more reformation theology influence we have those who add the investigative judgment to their beliefs and those who feel that the investigative judgement pulls away from the reformation theology and thus encourages the church to give this doctrine up. Among the more Methodist, we seem to have no problem with the investigative judgement. Our big split are those who believe that last generation perfection is of a different quality than any other generation in history. This is often built on John Wesley's theory about a stage of sanctification that he never saw but felt existed. And those of us who understand the Bible and Mrs. White to teach that last generation perfection is not of a different quality, but a different quantity. That every generation has those who have come to trust God so completely that nothing could shake their faith, and that every generation has those who have so closed off to God and salvation so completely that nothing can cause them to give up their unbelief. Then that most of us are in between these extremes, some who have not accepted the Lord into their lives, but may, and those who had accepted the Lord into our lives, but have not yet reached the deep unshakable trust.

Another issue is tradition vs. evidence. Both the more reformation theology Adventists vs. the more Methodist theology Adventists, with in these two camps you have different reactions to as we learn more evidence about the world of the Bible and Church history, and how we have traditionally understood these ideas.

I hope this helps.

Re: Can someone please explain to me about Progressive Adventism? [Re: Kevin H] #196749
10/10/23 09:14 AM
10/10/23 09:14 AM
G
Garywk  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

Veteran Member
Joined: Jul 2023
Posts: 982
Colville, Wa
Originally Posted by Kevin H
I've been trying to think of clearer ways to help understand this. I've been wanting to type when home then cut and paste when I came online. But things have been busy.

A couple of things that came to mind is that on the one hand Seventh-day Adventism is a denomination, but on the other hand we are also a movement that Transends denominations and at times even religions. Our pioneers were from a wide range of denominations. They were kicked out of their beloved churches for their belief in Miller's message. They tried to form a church that had room for different understandings. They had only a handful of landmarks, and beyond these they were free to think and discuss. From time to time we form what we call lists of fundamental beliefs, which looks a lot like a creed. However, they are different from creeds. Creeds define what a denomination believes. To be a member you have to be with in the creed. They are like a walled city. However, our different lists of fundamental beliefs differ from creeds in at least two ways: The first, until 2015, they have always been written in a deliberate vague language that members could understand in different ways. In 2015 there were a few lines that our leadership felt needed to be more precise. Of course there were mixed emotions fearful that this action was trying to change from a list of fundamental beliefs to a creed. Second is while creeds are like a walled city that the members live within. Our fundamental belief lists are more like a generalized neighborhood where most of us live in one way or another. And we are more willing to update and modify the list as we learn more.

Now when we last updated the list with our 27 (later adding one more to make it 28) there was a book published with it. The 27 was our official list of fundamental beliefs, however the book gave to the list ways how some of our church leaders wanted the 27 to be understood and applied.

All of this already makes Seventh-day Adventism more of a tapestry of beliefs.

A second part is that, as some of my professors used to say "For some reason Seventh-day Adventist have a neurotic need to prove to the world that we are good Baptists."

In addition to our wanting to prove to the world that we are good Baptists, there is also the influence from reformation theology and Methodism. These two approaches have also colored how we apply what we understand from the Bible. With in the more reformation theology influence we have those who add the investigative judgment to their beliefs and those who feel that the investigative judgement pulls away from the reformation theology and thus encourages the church to give this doctrine up. Among the more Methodist, we seem to have no problem with the investigative judgement. Our big split are those who believe that last generation perfection is of a different quality than any other generation in history. This is often built on John Wesley's theory about a stage of sanctification that he never saw but felt existed. And those of us who understand the Bible and Mrs. White to teach that last generation perfection is not of a different quality, but a different quantity. That every generation has those who have come to trust God so completely that nothing could shake their faith, and that every generation has those who have so closed off to God and salvation so completely that nothing can cause them to give up their unbelief. Then that most of us are in between these extremes, some who have not accepted the Lord into their lives, but may, and those who had accepted the Lord into our lives, but have not yet reached the deep unshakable trust.

Another issue is tradition vs. evidence. Both the more reformation theology Adventists vs. the more Methodist theology Adventists, with in these two camps you have different reactions to as we learn more evidence about the world of the Bible and Church history, and how we have traditionally understood these ideas.

I hope this helps.



How does RxF have anything to do with Methodism or Baptists beliefs?

Re: Can someone please explain to me about Progressive Adventism? [Re: TheophilusOne] #196782
10/14/23 01:27 AM
10/14/23 01:27 AM
Kevin H  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 628
New York
Because there are people, myself included, who tend to approach religion from say a Methodist, or Baptist, or Evangelical direction; and even these can be broken down into further sub groups. These affect our understanding of Rightlessness by faith. for example among the evangelicals, we have those who limit the Bible to the issues that the reformers were dealing with in the 16 century. Some of these are just focused on our legal standing, focused on how we have sins of commission and of omission that we are guilty of; therefore Jesus needed the nature of Adam before the fall to balance everything out legally, and many with in this group scratch their head unable to make sense out of the investigative judgment and therefore want us to throw this doctrine away.

And we have, say our friends at Fulcrum7 and similar groups, among which has one foot in the anti-Jones and Wager group of 1888 and one foot with Jones and Wagner in some form or another. The pre-trinitarian view of Christ looked towards Christ as more our example, and has a view of last generation perfection where it is a different quality of religious experience than any generation before; and (while they do not necessary need this), they want Jesus to have the nature of Adam after the fall. and focused on perfect performance of our Adventist traditions. Also, we often find here people who like to preach the good news of the church going to hell in a handbasket. We also find here people who gives lip service to the ministry of Mrs. White, but want to force her into their views of how inspiration should work, with rejecting her guidance on what visions did and did not do for her.(by the way, with in the first group mentioned here, many have the same mentality towards inspiration, only applied to the reformer's understanding of Paul instead of Mrs. White). And even some who limit their Bible study to Mrs. White's quotes on Bible texts, and that the gospel is to be spread in attacking anything "liberal" and focusing on the pope, the pope, the pope, and willing to accept the methods and problems of the traditional papacy as long as it comes from someplace else besides Rome.

These seem to be the two extremes; frequently about half the truth being used against the rest of the truth, although both are wrong on the nature of Christ. (As we became more trinitarian, the church argued for centuries over this point and finally came to the understanding that Jesus had his own unique nature. Mrs. White would quote some of the best quotes of a theologian who explained this very well. But the two extremes want to either read their view into her words, or if they can't do that to simply throw her out.)

Sadly, these two sides want to ignore the tapestry that is Adventism, and wants to picture the church into either of these two views, and only these two views, and why their view is the one faithful to God and the Bible and the other is demonic. They are either stuck in the understanding of righteousness by faith that the Reformers held, or they want to impose the hypothetical theory of a sanctification experience that Wesley theorized about, but he never reached and never met someone who reached it. The Pentecostals apply this to speaking in tongues, and this thread of Adventism applies it to the reaching .some ideal Adventist tradition goal. (Different people have noted that while she does not name his name, her description of members in the last day generation perfection sounds a lot like different descriptions of John Wesley.)

Last edited by Kevin H; 10/14/23 01:32 AM.
Re: Can someone please explain to me about Progressive Adventism? [Re: Kevin H] #196783
10/14/23 06:16 AM
10/14/23 06:16 AM
G
Garywk  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

Veteran Member
Joined: Jul 2023
Posts: 982
Colville, Wa
Originally Posted by Kevin H
Because there are people, myself included, who tend to approach religion from say a Methodist, or Baptist, or Evangelical direction; and even these can be broken down into further sub groups. These affect our understanding of Rightlessness by faith. for example among the evangelicals, we have those who limit the Bible to the issues that the reformers were dealing with in the 16 century. Some of these are just focused on our legal standing, focused on how we have sins of commission and of omission that we are guilty of; therefore Jesus needed the nature of Adam before the fall to balance everything out legally, and many with in this group scratch their head unable to make sense out of the investigative judgment and therefore want us to throw this doctrine away.

And we have, say our friends at Fulcrum7 and similar groups, among which has one foot in the anti-Jones and Wager group of 1888 and one foot with Jones and Wagner in some form or another. The pre-trinitarian view of Christ looked towards Christ as more our example, and has a view of last generation perfection where it is a different quality of religious experience than any generation before; and (while they do not necessary need this), they want Jesus to have the nature of Adam after the fall. and focused on perfect performance of our Adventist traditions. Also, we often find here people who like to preach the good news of the church going to hell in a handbasket. We also find here people who gives lip service to the ministry of Mrs. White, but want to force her into their views of how inspiration should work, with rejecting her guidance on what visions did and did not do for her.(by the way, with in the first group mentioned here, many have the same mentality towards inspiration, only applied to the reformer's understanding of Paul instead of Mrs. White). And even some who limit their Bible study to Mrs. White's quotes on Bible texts, and that the gospel is to be spread in attacking anything "liberal" and focusing on the pope, the pope, the pope, and willing to accept the methods and problems of the traditional papacy as long as it comes from someplace else besides Rome.

These seem to be the two extremes; frequently about half the truth being used against the rest of the truth, although both are wrong on the nature of Christ. (As we became more trinitarian, the church argued for centuries over this point and finally came to the understanding that Jesus had his own unique nature. Mrs. White would quote some of the best quotes of a theologian who explained this very well. But the two extremes want to either read their view into her words, or if they can't do that to simply throw her out.)

Sadly, these two sides want to ignore the tapestry that is Adventism, and wants to picture the church into either of these two views, and only these two views, and why their view is the one faithful to God and the Bible and the other is demonic. They are either stuck in the understanding of righteousness by faith that the Reformers held, or they want to impose the hypothetical theory of a sanctification experience that Wesley theorized about, but he never reached and never met someone who reached it. The Pentecostals apply this to speaking in tongues, and this thread of Adventism applies it to the reaching .some ideal Adventist tradition goal. (Different people have noted that while she does not name his name, her description of members in the last day generation perfection sounds a lot like different descriptions of John Wesley.)


We know from scripture and Ellen White that none of the evangelicals, Baptists, or Methodists have all truth. So why would any SDA want to approach scripture from their perspectives? It makes no sense to me. To read scripture from their perspectives means we will eventually walk away from truth. I don't see how there can be any other result from doing that as our perspective then becomes a mixture of truth and error and no matter how sincerely we believe error it will lead us to no place good.

It's why I never read theologians. Never have, and never will. Jesus promised us the Comforter who will lead us into all truth. I'll stick with that at all times plus asking for the guidance of the HS every day and when I open scripture or Ellen White's writings. I know of no other way to overcome my own biases and be sure I'm being led in the right direction. That is a guarantee from Jesus Himself and that's more than good enough for me.

Last edited by Garywk; 10/14/23 06:21 AM.
Re: Can someone please explain to me about Progressive Adventism? [Re: TheophilusOne] #196788
10/14/23 01:37 PM
10/14/23 01:37 PM
G
Garywk  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

Veteran Member
Joined: Jul 2023
Posts: 982
Colville, Wa
More on our need of RxF from Faith and Works p. 52.

Quote
God requires at this time just what He required of the holy pair
in Eden?perfect obedience to His requirements. His law remains
the same in all ages. The great standard of righteousness presented
in the Old Testament is not lowered in the New. It is not the work of
the gospel to weaken the claims of God?s holy law but to bring men
up where they can keep its precepts.
The faith in Christ that saves the soul is not what it is represented
to be by many. ?Believe, believe,? is their cry; ?only believe in
Christ, and you will be saved. It is all you have to do.? While true
faith trusts wholly in Christ for salvation, it will lead to perfect
conformity to the law of God. Faith is manifested by works. And
the apostle John declares, ?He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth
not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him? (1 John
2:4).
It is unsafe to trust to feelings or impressions; these are unreliable
guides. God?s law is the only correct standard of holiness. It is by
this law that character is to be judged. If an inquirer after salvation
were to ask, ?What shall I do to inherit eternal life?? the modern
teachers of sanctification would answer, ?Only believe that Jesus
saves you.? But when Christ was asked this question He said, ?What
is written in the law? how readest thou?? And when the questioner
replied, ?Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, ...and
thy neighbour as thyself,? Jesus said, ?Thou hast answered right:
this do, and thou shalt live? (Luke 10:25-29).

Re: Can someone please explain to me about Progressive Adventism? [Re: TheophilusOne] #196796
10/15/23 11:11 PM
10/15/23 11:11 PM
Kevin H  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 628
New York
In many ways pretty much all of Adventism is progressive. Since the deciphering of the Rosetta Stone in the 1820s and Edward Robinson's trips to the Middle East (late 1830s and book out early 1840s) we have lived in an age of increased understanding of the Bible as well as the ancient world in general and ancient languages. As archaeologists find more ancient writings we get better and deeper understandings of possible translations of the Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic words. We learn more about historical events or when things were being done.

Seventh-day Adventism has been up to date and involved in this research. And we have formed quite a tapestry of growth. The problem lies as I see it as we have three subgroups that are entrenched within traditions that limit their willingness to grow, and who, instead of sharing what they understand and allow the rest of us to evaluate and apply or not apply as we see useful from our study of the Bible and Mrs. White, these tend to want to force their views onto the rest of the church.

One subgroup is so stuck in the 1500s and the issues that the reformers were facing, that they have a hard time grasping the further development starting with Wesley. These people frequently have a hard time with seeing how the investigative judgment fits in (they tend to be focused on the question "How do I get God to let me into heaven instead of sending me to hell" and focus on the legal status and apply Jesus' substitutionary death to the balancing out the legal status, and with their focus on the balanced legal status, they tend to minimize a victorious life.

A second seems to be at the opposite extreme, and holding views that were held by those who rejected Jones and Wagner in 1888, but then worked out some sort of coming to terms with Jones and Wagner. These tend to be focused on traditions and while they see victory over sin, it seems to me that they limit the victory to the traditions they seem attracted to.

A third is not as intense as the second group, but there are some who have grown out of some of our leaders who said that they understand the mission of the church is to reject anything that they see as "liberal" and were upset that the church developed a full seminary and a Bible Commentary and what was in the 1950s a recognized by scholars of many faiths, a world class Bible Dictionary. They made some comments that seem to indicate that if you want to know what a verse means to read what Mrs. White said about it and that's the final word on the topic, and that we just need to convert as many as we can in our basic Bible Study and Evangelistic meetings.

Each of these, in their own way, seem to want their version of Adventism to be the definitive form of Adventism and to be come THE Adventist creed. We are to be God's witnesses, not his attorney. Read Acts 18 then read Acts 19. Both stories repeat a story with the geography and ending changed. In Acts 18 Paul was teaching in the synagogue in Corinth. Eventually some came who opposed Paul's teaching, and he left with some very sharp words and vowed to only go to the gentiles. He found someplace else to teach, but several from that synagogue, including the rabbi, wanted to continue to study with Paul. We find Paul devastated and God had to give him a dream to continue his ministry. In Acts 19 Paul is in Ephesus. and broke his vow as he is again teaching in the synagogue. Once again he was opposed, but this time instead of leaving in a huff, his attitude was that if people were uncomfortable with him teaching in the synagogue, he will teach elsewhere and anyone who wants to continue to study with him was welcome. We later find a riot by those making the image of Aramis, and it was pointed out that Paul did not rob from her temple, and that he never even blasphemy her name. In Acts 19, instead of attacking, Paul would only share what he loved and if others could benefit good.

I understand Acts 19 to also be the spirit of the original organization of the Seventh-day Adventist church. Our pioneers came from a wide denominational background. They were kicked out of their beloved churches because their churches were too narrow to allow the additional thought of the Advent movement. They did not suddenly throw out all they used to believe and set up a new uniform set of beliefs. They agreed on a handful of landmarks/pillars, and a desire to have no creed save their conscience based on their understanding of the Bible. A willingness to discuss and listen. From time to time we would give out a general list of where we more or less were in our study and growth. Many (maybe most) of our pioneers questioned the trinity and were willing to preach against it; yet they did not make their views a test of fellowship. People were free to join if they were trinitarian or not. People would share and allow the hearers to evaluate and make up their own mind.

Re: Can someone please explain to me about Progressive Adventism? [Re: Kevin H] #196798
10/16/23 02:07 AM
10/16/23 02:07 AM
G
Garywk  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

Veteran Member
Joined: Jul 2023
Posts: 982
Colville, Wa
Originally Posted by Kevin H
In many ways pretty much all of Adventism is progressive. Since the deciphering of the Rosetta Stone in the 1820s and Edward Robinson's trips to the Middle East (late 1830s and book out early 1840s) we have lived in an age of increased understanding of the Bible as well as the ancient world in general and ancient languages. As archaeologists find more ancient writings we get better and deeper understandings of possible translations of the Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic words. We learn more about historical events or when things were being done.

Seventh-day Adventism has been up to date and involved in this research. And we have formed quite a tapestry of growth. The problem lies as I see it as we have three subgroups that are entrenched within traditions that limit their willingness to grow, and who, instead of sharing what they understand and allow the rest of us to evaluate and apply or not apply as we see useful from our study of the Bible and Mrs. White, these tend to want to force their views onto the rest of the church.

One subgroup is so stuck in the 1500s and the issues that the reformers were facing, that they have a hard time grasping the further development starting with Wesley. These people frequently have a hard time with seeing how the investigative judgment fits in (they tend to be focused on the question "How do I get God to let me into heaven instead of sending me to hell" and focus on the legal status and apply Jesus' substitutionary death to the balancing out the legal status, and with their focus on the balanced legal status, they tend to minimize a victorious life.

A second seems to be at the opposite extreme, and holding views that were held by those who rejected Jones and Wagner in 1888, but then worked out some sort of coming to terms with Jones and Wagner. These tend to be focused on traditions and while they see victory over sin, it seems to me that they limit the victory to the traditions they seem attracted to.

A third is not as intense as the second group, but there are some who have grown out of some of our leaders who said that they understand the mission of the church is to reject anything that they see as "liberal" and were upset that the church developed a full seminary and a Bible Commentary and what was in the 1950s a recognized by scholars of many faiths, a world class Bible Dictionary. They made some comments that seem to indicate that if you want to know what a verse means to read what Mrs. White said about it and that's the final word on the topic, and that we just need to convert as many as we can in our basic Bible Study and Evangelistic meetings.

Each of these, in their own way, seem to want their version of Adventism to be the definitive form of Adventism and to be come THE Adventist creed. We are to be God's witnesses, not his attorney. Read Acts 18 then read Acts 19. Both stories repeat a story with the geography and ending changed. In Acts 18 Paul was teaching in the synagogue in Corinth. Eventually some came who opposed Paul's teaching, and he left with some very sharp words and vowed to only go to the gentiles. He found someplace else to teach, but several from that synagogue, including the rabbi, wanted to continue to study with Paul. We find Paul devastated and God had to give him a dream to continue his ministry. In Acts 19 Paul is in Ephesus. and broke his vow as he is again teaching in the synagogue. Once again he was opposed, but this time instead of leaving in a huff, his attitude was that if people were uncomfortable with him teaching in the synagogue, he will teach elsewhere and anyone who wants to continue to study with him was welcome. We later find a riot by those making the image of Aramis, and it was pointed out that Paul did not rob from her temple, and that he never even blasphemy her name. In Acts 19, instead of attacking, Paul would only share what he loved and if others could benefit good.

I understand Acts 19 to also be the spirit of the original organization of the Seventh-day Adventist church. Our pioneers came from a wide denominational background. They were kicked out of their beloved churches because their churches were too narrow to allow the additional thought of the Advent movement. They did not suddenly throw out all they used to believe and set up a new uniform set of beliefs. They agreed on a handful of landmarks/pillars, and a desire to have no creed save their conscience based on their understanding of the Bible. A willingness to discuss and listen. From time to time we would give out a general list of where we more or less were in our study and growth. Many (maybe most) of our pioneers questioned the trinity and were willing to preach against it; yet they did not make their views a test of fellowship. People were free to join if they were trinitarian or not. People would share and allow the hearers to evaluate and make up their own mind.


Sorry, but the more I read what you have to say the less I like it. Everyone is still free to chooser to believe anything they want to believe.Look at all the winds of doctrine blowing throughout the church and tell me that's not true. The shaking is self selecting those who will leave the church.

Re: Can someone please explain to me about Progressive Adventism? [Re: TheophilusOne] #196811
10/17/23 03:30 PM
10/17/23 03:30 PM
Kevin H  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 628
New York
It does have to be based on our landmarks and on sound Biblical studies and not merely tradition I'm not talking about minority views that cannot be sub stained by just a small group. I've already pointed out two or three subgroups of Adventism who worry me. Those outside the tapestry of Adventism worry me even more so. And even with these two or three groups I like much of what they say. What bothers me about them is the righteousness by fear that they tend to use, the preaching that the church is going to hell in a hand basket, and insisting that their particulars, such as one or the other of the two misconceptions of the nature of Christ be forced upon the entire church, or the one groups insistence that we give up the investigative judgment .and to limit our knowledge of the Bible to what the Reformers taught.

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