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Daniel 8 Rome or Antiochus Epiphanes #195001
09/17/22 06:19 AM
09/17/22 06:19 AM
dedication  Online Content
OP
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Back in (2006) there was a Sabbath School lesson guide that has long gone into ARCHIVE but can still be found, which dealt with the horn of Daniel 8 -- Is it symbolic of Rome or is a prophecy of Antiochus Epiphanes IV?

You can find the study guide in PDF form at:
Lesson 10, Rome or Antiochus

And the same study with teacher's comments at:
Rome or Antiochus comments

This is a subject very important to understanding the historicist interpretation, which under pins the key references to the heavenly sanctuary message.

Is this chapter (Daniel 8) speaking of the heavenly sanctuary or is it concerned with the earthly sanctuary?
Why do Adventists reject Antiochus Epiphanes as the little horn?
Dispensationalists cling to the Epiphanes interpretation. Why?

Re: Daniel 8 Rome or Antiochus Epiphanes [Re: dedication] #195002
09/17/22 06:39 AM
09/17/22 06:39 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Why do dispensationalists cling to the Epiphanes interpretation?
From what I can see --

Dispensationalism has a distinct view of the uniqueness of Israel as separate from the Church in God?s program. Israel has their covenant, while Christians are under a new covenant. Dispensationalists hold that the Church (spiritual Israel made up of all who believe in Christ) has not replaced literal Israel in God?s program and that the Old Testament promises to Israel have not been transferred to the Christianity and will all yet be fulfilled to literal Israel. So Epiphanes attack makes more sense to them since, for them, Daniel tends to become a book dealing with the Israelite nation, up to their rejection of the Messiah, and then skipping over the whole Christian era, to a supposed 7th week at the end of time, rather than a book that spans time from Daniel's day and all the way through the Christian era to the end of the world and the restoration under the everlasting gospel.

Re: Daniel 8 Rome or Antiochus Epiphanes [Re: dedication] #195003
09/17/22 07:24 AM
09/17/22 07:24 AM
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Why do Adventists reject Epiphanes?

There are many reasons, several are listed in the study guide; but of most importance (as far as I can see and I believe) is Adventists seeing more and more evidence that the sanctuary message is all through Daniel's messages. The earthly sanctuary pointed to Christ. Christ's death and confirming the covenant is explained. And Christ's (the Prince of host's) continual ministry in the heavenly sanctuary following His resurrection. Repeated several times are references of the antagonists attacks on the covenant and on the sanctuary. The horn grows exceedingly powerful not only on earth, but reaches up trying to gain power over heavenly things.

In Daniel 8, sanctuary language is all the way through! The war is against Christ's work as well as against Christ's people.

We see the pre-Christ, powers (Media/Persia and Greece) depicted as animals of sacrifice.
During their reign, the earthly sanctuary was in operation, offering sacrifices.

Then, as the horn stretches itself against heaven itself, we move into the Christian era. That horn is casting down the PLACE (not the sanctuary itself) but the place of the sanctuary from heaven to earth -- taking upon itself the priestly work that belongs to Christ alone.
The translators started thinking the "continual" or "daily" can't stand alone, so they added a noun (sacrifice). But that was not part of the original writings of Daniel. He does NOT use the word "sacrifice" in Daniel 8. Daniel 9 tells us Christ ended the sacrifices at His death. He is ministering His continuous ministry as our High Priest in heaven, based on the blood of His once and for all sacrifice. A fact the horn succeeds (if only in the minds of the people) to usurp and apply to itself.
Thus at the time of the end, this hijacking has to be dealt with -- a cleansing of the sanctuary. The true High Priest, uplifted and the false shone for what it is. A time of judgment, who are we worshipping and following?

Re: Daniel 8 Rome or Antiochus Epiphanes [Re: dedication] #195004
09/17/22 08:00 AM
09/17/22 08:00 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Some reasons from the lesson Epiphanes is rejected:

1. The Medo-Persian ram became ?great? (vs. 4); the Grecian
goat ?very great? (vs. 8); the little horn became ?exceeding great?
(vs. 9). How does this description and comparison of empires
automatically disqualify Antiochus as the little horn?

2.According to Daniel 8:17, 19, 26, the prophecy dealt with endtime things, and the little horn was the last power presented in the vision. He died in 164 B.C., why can Antiochus not be the
little horn?

3. According to Daniel 8:25, the little horn would be ?broken
without hand,? a phrase we saw earlier that?through parallelism
with Daniel 2:34, 45?depicted a supernatural, cataclysmic
destruction. Why, given what?s written above about his demise,
does Antiochus not fit again?

More thoughts:
4. FROM ONE OF THEM -- out of one of the four winds (direction)
or out of one of the four horns (Grecian kingdoms)

Consider:
The ram came from the east pushing west, north, and south (vs 4)
The goat came from the west (vs 5)

"he great horn (Alexander the founder of Greek empire) was broken; and in his place, came up four notable ones toward the four winds (directions) of heaven.
8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn,
which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant [land].


This is all about "directions" how many directions do you find named in those verses?
-- The little horn came from the west and pushed south and east and toward the pleasant land.

Why insist a horn rose out of a horn --
It came up from a "wind" or direction just like all the others.

5. Rome was already in ascendency and Greek empire in decline when Epiphanes became king.
Antiochus IV Epiphanes, was a hostage in Rome when his father Antiochus III was assassinated, and he managed to take the throne. Epiphanes had no power against Rome, all his life he paid tribute to Rome. Epiphanes did try to take land in Egypt, but the Romans stopped him. Epiphanes did not take Palestine, his father Antiochus III took over Palestine from the Ptolemies. Epiphanes actual lost Palestine.
Yes, he did cause havoc in Jerusalem. And yes the Maccabees took Daniel's writings to refer to their time. But was he the subject of Daniel's writing?

6. Did chapter eight happen and reach it's climax, before Christ was born?
Or is chapter nine's 490 years "cut out" from the 2300 years, and the death of Messiah the Prince mark the end of sacrifices and sacrificial animals? Thus no sacrificial animal represents the time of the horn, nor is the word "sacrifice" actually linked to the "daily"?


Re: Daniel 8 Rome or Antiochus Epiphanes [Re: dedication] #195006
09/17/22 05:30 PM
09/17/22 05:30 PM
Kevin H  Online Content
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Posts: 538
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Thank you for these posts dedication!!!! Indeed Daniel 8 was NOT dealing with Antiochus. As Daniel was "By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion." he was not thinking about Antiochus. (by the way, he was not directly thinking about the Pope either, but the God who controls the cycles of history, we find Daniel's principles applying to Rome and the Pope, and since we are in Daniel 8, yes, 1844)

Daniel was focused on the restoration of the land. Scholars arguing for Antiochus points out historical facts about Daniel that if Daniel really lived in Babylon he would not have made, and some language a bit late for Daniel. However, the language is not much after Daniel's time or may even apply to the end of his life. And Daniel knew facts about Babylon that would have been long forgotten by the time of Antiochus.

Some scholars are suggesting that there was indeed a historical Daniel who lived as the book claims back in Babylon and went through the events. For the historical errors and late language; If the final version of the book was edited by Daniel's students shortly after the historical Daniel's death, that could explain the language and historical errors. There is also a suggestion that as the Hebrews returned to the land, and Zerubbabel did not get the Davidic house restored, that people would have considered Daniel a failed prophecy and put it on the shelf. Then when facing the Antiochus crisis, took Daniel off the shelf, and maybe a few marginal notes from the time of Antiochus eventually made it into the text, but the book itself came from the historical Daniel and his students.

Placing the text in the time of Antiochus it causes scholars to study the text in the WRONG historical context.

Antiochus came from one of the horns and traveled south west. The little horn: The 4 horns are written in the masculine tenses, while the 4 winds are written in the feminine tense, The little horn is also written in the feminine tense, indicating that she comes from one of the 4 winds, and travels south east. Rome came from one of the 4 winds and traveled south east, while as I wrote above, Antiochus came from one of the 4 horns and travels south west.

As to the 2300 evenings-mornings; Scholars who are dead set on Antiochus notice that the 2300 literal days is way to long for Antiochus, and to divide it in half to 1150 days still does not fit, but is a better fit than 2300. They divide it by by changing evenings-mornings to the morning and evening sacrifice; two sacrifices a day, so cut the 2300 into 1150 days.

However the term for the sacrifices are "morning and evening" NOT "evening-morning". I have read commentaries that insist that Daniel had dyslexia: that Daniel really meant to write "morning and evening" but his dyslexia caused him to instead write evenings-mornings.

Others have pointed out that the phrase "evenings-mornings" are ancient cyclic language. If anyone here gets a chance to buy (or borrow on interlibrary loan if your library does not carry it) "Before Philosophy" by Henri Frankfort and others, 1946 University of Chicago Press, you can get a fantastic background to cyclic thought , including the day=year principle. How I wish that Desmond Ford had read that book; his history would have ended up so differently. I'm willing to bet that this book was on the shelf of the PUC library when Ford said that there is no day=year principle. It is a shame that this book was someplace gathering dust on a shelf and everyone heard Ford's statement with an attitude of "Duh, OK" instead of someone standing up and quoting this book.) The Egyptian cycle considered a "day" as both the cycle of the sun and the annual cycle of the flooding of the Nile. If we lived in ancient Egypt and I borrowed some money from you; you would be equally happy if I paid you within the next cycle of the sun, or within the next cycle of the flooding of the Nile.

We find the Hebrew cycles in Leviticus 23 and 25 and here and there in Deuteronomy. Leviticus tells us what the Hebrew week was: 6 days and the Sabbath, The two growing seasons, or 6 months and either Passover or Yom Kippur, 6 years and the Sabbatical year, and 6 Sabbatical years and the Jubilee. Now, Deuteronomy does not have the same view of the Jubilee as Leviticus. Daniel's Bible teacher was Jeremiah, who is very connected to Deuteronimic thought (possibly the Deuteronomic historian who edited the history into the books Joshua through Kings) Thus Daniel probably shared the same lack of focus on the Jubilee that his teacher shared. This means that Daniel would have understood 2300 evenings-mornings to mean either 2300 literal days, 2300 literal months or 2300 literal years; thus ending all time prophecy at the 2300 literal year fulfillment.

Many of the theories of Daniel were formed prior to the birth of scientific study of Biblical Geography that was started with Edward Robinson in the late 1830s and was just published and starting to be read in the mid 1840s, that opened the door to Biblical archaeology and the rediscovery of the ancient world. In those days people did not have evidence that Belshazzar even existed, much less when his third year was. Today we know that Belshazzar did indeed exist, and a fairly good idea when his third year was.

In Daniel class the professor tried an experiment. He took the very likely date of Belshazzar's third year and added 1150 literal days, and it comes to a year of business as usual. Then he added 2300 literal days to the probable third year of Belshazzar, and he came to a year that Babylon had Medio-Persia at her gates, Belshazzar's feast and the fall of Babylon and the early days of Medio-Persia. This gives evidence that Daniel understood Daniel 8:14 to mean the 2300 days, months, and years cycles and not to be divided into 1150 days. And that Daniel was focused on the end of the exile and the restoration of the Davidic king; NOT Antiochus. (The roles of Rome and the Papacy fits in with the principles of Daniel's interests and history leading to the true Son of David to be the literal king of his people.)

Daniel 9 applies the 2300 cycles to the 70 weeks of years prophecy. Following this we find the day=year application of the 2300 cycles would be fulfilled in 1844.

Re: Daniel 8 Rome or Antiochus Epiphanes [Re: dedication] #195009
09/18/22 01:29 AM
09/18/22 01:29 AM
dedication  Online Content
OP
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You are right, Daniel was not thinking about Rome or the Papacy for that had not yet arisen.
Daniel was only a human man.
Daniel, a human man, did not have foreknowledge. I fully believe he was a real man, taken captive to Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar, as were his three friends.

But Daniel served and worshipped a powerful God, who knows the end from the beginning.
God knows the future! God has FOREKNOWLEDGE. It is He Who reveals the future to Daniel. And God knew all about Rome and the Papacy.

Daniel did not make these visions up, these visions came from the supreme, all knowing God.
These visions are not relying on what Daniel may or may not have known or thought. In fact we read that he didn't even fully understand them and God tells him not to worry about it, they would be understood in their time.
(Daniel 8:27, 12:8-10)


These visions and their interpretations didn't come from Daniel himself, they were revelations FROM GOD!
So what Daniel knew in his situation really isn't the issue here.
Nor do I follow the Dispensationalist logic, that everything must deal with literal Israel at that time and come to an end before the new covenant comes into effect, for dispensationalists need to keep literal Israel and Christianity separate.
So these visions are not just about Israel's return to Jerusalem, though God did reveal that to him in Daniel 9.
God revealed, the plan of salvation, Christ's ministry both on earth, His death and covenant and His work as High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary. Then there is the opposition that would arise against God's covenant and Christ's heavenly ministry. These visions cover the whole span of coming history to Daniel! Though they start with Daniel's time, they deal quite extensively with Christian history

And yes, God knew Rome would arise. He knew the papacy would rise out of Rome and dominate the kings for 1260 years and persecute the saints. He knew this tyrannical "king" would recede and then come back in full vengeance at the time of the end.
He knew there would be a pre-Advent judgment to separate the true followers of Christ, and the followers of the pretensions christ figure who would dominate Christian history.

God KNEW all about the papacy, the power behind it, and how the gospel truths of Christianity would descend into darkness for over a thousand years. This is the theme in Daniel 7,8,11.
The theme high lights Christ's ministry, and shows the power that would try to obliterate it from the minds of men.

God knew all this and was revealing it through visions and angelic interpreters to Daniel.

Considering the importance of the book of Daniel, it shouldn?t be surprising that the enemy would hate it and has gone to extraordinary lengths to cast confusion and doubt on it thus to lessen its impact and its message.
For instance, though Daniel himself in various chapters dates his writing, higher critical scholars dismiss those dates as fabrications, and assume someone, a couple hundred years later, simply recounted Jewish history past, focusing on events that are not the concern of the visions in Daniel.
And yes, the Maccabees tampered with the writings to make it appear they were Israel's deliverers, thus gain the people's support not only in the war against Epiphanes, but also in the subsequent years when they ruled Israel
Others continually quibble over supposed "mistakes" as in -- there was no king Belshazzar. But yes, modern archeology is continually discovering evidence that Daniel didn't make up the narratives of his life in Babylon.

But what is the theme of Daniel 8 -- the theme is CHRIST and His ministry, and the opposition to that ministry launched on earth.

Re: Daniel 8 Rome or Antiochus Epiphanes [Re: dedication] #195011
09/20/22 04:02 PM
09/20/22 04:02 PM
Kevin H  Online Content
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 538
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Indeed, Satan has special fear of Daniel so that he wants us to study the book in the context of Antiochus, instead of the context of Babylon, and maybe shortly after Babylon. I know that you worry about that being the heresy of Peterism, but I do see it as the steps of exegesis and analogy.

We find a oneness of God knowing the future; but also offering people the freedom of choice to spread the gospel and thus hasten the coming of the Lord. Ultimately we will see these prophecies fulfilled in a way that "God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."

The other day I heard a Mark Twain quote that really impressed me. Apparently he said "History does not repeat itself, but it does rhyme." Over the dark ages, there was developed a principle that is not exact, but close enough to be incredibly useful. This is the idea of type and antitype. In a fuller sense the principle is exegesis and reapplication to similar situations through historical analogy, and that there will indeed be a final cycle, and we will recognize what we need when it is time as we are faithful to how the Lord has lead us in the past. This knowledge improves as we understand the original historical setting. We can see how Antiochus is TOO different from the principles in Daniel; yet both the Flavian emperors of Rome, and the Papacy fit. As we learn what fits and what does not fit, we will recognize the crisis when it comes. (Thus Satan desperately making people look to the wrong historical setting.)

God sees all the cycles, all the rhymes over history. God sees the final cycle. He sees how his people can make applications to the different times the principles cycle around. The original setting (and the applications over the cycles) we can say are the types that will meet the antitype in the final cycle,; maintaining the principle of God giving his people the chance to finish the work at the times these cycles come around, that the Lord could have come err this' and yet that God sees exactly how the final cycle will be where the work if finished and Jesus comes; and in the perfect timing to fulfill the promise "God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."

Re: Daniel 8 Rome or Antiochus Epiphanes [Re: dedication] #195012
09/21/22 05:07 AM
09/21/22 05:07 AM
dedication  Online Content
OP
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?Christ could have come ere this ?.
That?s what Ellen White said. If I remember correctly she said it a number of times but always in the context of time after 1844 after the 2300 years had ended. Indeed she said there would be no more time prophesies between that date and Christ?s return.
She said it in the context of the splintering of the millerite movement indicating that had the believers in that movement accepted the view of the heavenly sanctuary and Christ's work there and embraced the sabbath to build up the breach in God?s law and all worked together to preach the three angels message , Christ could have come!! She said the same thing about 1888, had the believers embraced the message then So yes, we?ve been in the time of the end for 176 years already, wandering around in this wilderness of sin.

And yes the message has always been that it was ?soon? for no one has ever needed to wait longer than their own lifetime. Once death ends the earthly journey, time for that individual stops and their next conscious reality is the resurrection. Time indeed is short for everyone. No one knows how soon their life will end and their Choice is final

That all said, I do not see biblical support that the Second coming could have happened prior to the ending of the 2300 days. The fullness of time had not yet come. Christs first coming did not take place till the fullness of time had come. Galatian?s 4:4

Re: Daniel 8 Rome or Antiochus Epiphanes [Re: dedication] #195013
09/21/22 06:02 AM
09/21/22 06:02 AM
dedication  Online Content
OP
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 5,703
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Free will is not removed when God reveals his plan of salvation and how He works. The whole Jewish sanctuary was to teach that.plan of salvation But sadly they did not see that. Seems most don?t want to see Christ?s ministry unfolding over time in Daniel 8 & 9. From the earthly sanctuary to the cross and up to the heavenly sanctuary where Christ is our high priest. The prophecy includes the warning of a power that will oppose this work. That doesn?t remove free will. It does give warning so people will have a. Choice. And realize there is a choice to be made

The vision covers 2300 years The question is asked. How long the vision with its assaults on the sanctuary ? The vision started with media Persia included Greece and much more. The vision covers 2300 years.
Daniel 12 :11 gives other time periods for the events which take place within the 2300 years. The desolation is set up 1290 years the daily is usurped for 1260 years.
While the whole vision to the cleansing is 2300 years.
That is not cyclic happenings wih multiple fulfilment. That is a single line through history


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