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Re: Who are the twenty four elders of Revelation? [Re: Rick H] #195351
01/14/23 11:02 PM
01/14/23 11:02 PM
Kevin H  Online Content
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"
On the other hand, the 24 elders are far more personal. They explain things to John, they interact with him on a personal level. They react and interact with things happening in heaven.
They are NOT just symbols, they are beings going about their work.
I'm not comfortable in spiritualizing them away, even if we don't understand everything about them."

As you said, they explain things to John and interact with him on a personal level. How are things in heaven explained to us? Is it not through the testimony of the 12 tribes and the 12 apostles? Who gives us "Present Truth" when it is time for us to know it? Is is not the Holy Spirit communicating through the testimony of the 12 tribes and the 12 apostles?

Re: Who are the twenty four elders of Revelation? [Re: Rick H] #195352
01/14/23 11:04 PM
01/14/23 11:04 PM
Kevin H  Online Content
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The 24 Elders in Revelation

The setting of Revelation 4 and 5, the 24 elders:
In Ezekiel chapter we find God?s people sent to exile in Babylon. But we don?t find God saying ?Good Riddance? but that God leaves to go into exile with his people. We find a movable throne of God were we find the 4 beasts representing angels. In Revelation we read about the angels of the churches, and Prophets talk about mighty angels that work with them. In Daniel 10: 12-13, we are told how the angel was working on the heart of the prince of Persia, who resisted him for 21 days, thus delaying his coming to Daniel with the answer Daniel was concerned about.

As the Hebrews marched from Egypt to the promised land they camped as a square with the sanctuary in the middle, the Levites, including the priests, who taught the people messages from God camped in a square around the tabernacle, living between the Sanctuary and the other tribes which were camped again as a square. The middle tribe on each of the four sides of this square had animals that represented them. Ephraim the ox, Dan the Eagle, Judah the lion, and Ruben the man. These symbols also represented all the tribes on that side of the tabernacle. The stones on the high priest?s breastplate was not in the tic-tac-toe shape we have it in our pictures, but they were laid out around the heart of the high priest. The high priest?s heart was where the sanctuary was, and an open square and the 12 stones were a square around the heart as the Hebrews camped around the sanctuary. This symbolized the high priest carrying God?s people on his heart. This symbolized Jesus carrying us on his heart.








Naphtali Eagle
Dan Asher
Manasseh Levites/Priests Zeblum
Ox
Ephraim Levites/Priests Tabernacle Levites/Priests Lion
Judah
Benjaman Levites/Priests Issachar
Simeon Rubin
Man Gad


This is the structure of Revelation 4 and 5, the picture of the Hebrews, God?s people traveling in the exodus from Egypt to the promised land. We have in the middle were the sanctuary was, in Revelation we find God?s throne with phrases referring God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. Then you have 24 elders who has replaces the Levites/priests, and we naturally find the 4 beasts, just as the camp of the exodus had these 4 beasts representing the 4 sides of God?s people traveling from Egypt to the promised land, and is symbolized in Ezekiel that God?s people in exile are not abandoned. Just as each church in Revelation has it?s angel, so each side of God?s people in exodus from Egypt but not yet in the promised land, and as the angels for these four sides of God?s people out of the promised land during the Babylonian exile.

Eagle
24 Elders



Ox


24 Elders God?s throne, symbols of the trinity: 7 Spirits (or perfect Spirit, the Holy Spirit) the lamb


24 Elders


Lion
24 Elders
Man


The gospels has 24 Sadduceen Elders giving a false testimony about Jesus. In Revelation we find the heavenly counterpart of these 24 men. Instead of the 24 false witnesses telling lies about Jesus, in Revelation we find 24 Elders who gives the true witness of Jesus, and just as the Levites/priests brought the message from the sanctuary to the 4 creatures, God?s people in exodus, freed from Egypt but not yet in the promised land, so the 24 elders communicate what is happening in heaven to the 4 creatures who again represent both the angels for the 4 sides and the people these angels minister to of God?s people either in exodus or exile.

The job of the 24 Sadducee elders, 24 priests, was to present the truth about God to the people, but instead of doing their job they instead gave a false testimony about Jesus. In Revelation we find a their heavenly counter parts, 24 elders camped between God?s throne and the 4 beasts who represent God?s people in exodus between Egypt and the promised land. but these 24 elders are giving God?s people in the exodus the true testimony about Jesus. We thus see one significant reason for there to be 24 elders If the John of Revelation is the same John of the gospel, these 24 elders would have a special significance as he saw the 24 elders giving the false witness of Jesus. Just as the 7 churches have their angel, and the 4 sides of God?s people when they were either in transit from Egypt to the promised land, or outside of the promised land in exile, so we see a oneness of 24 mighty angels who worked with prophets throughout history, especially the prophets who wrote the Bible. But we also see these 24 mighty angels trying to work with the hearts of the 24 Sadducees to proclaim the truth about Jesus instead of telling the lies about Jesus that they choose to let come out of their lips.

We have two sets of 12 in the Bible, the one is the witness of the 12 tribes and second, the witness of the 12 Apostles. We have saved the record of their witness in the Old and New Testaments, and through the Bible we get the truth about Jesus and how heaven communicates with us on earth. We thus have in Revelation 4 and 5 God?s throne, the 24 elders replacing the Levites and priests, the testimony of the 12 tribes and 12 apostles, the word of God, to the 4 living creatures which is God?s people who have been delivered from sin but on our way to the promised land. The 24 elders is simply God communicating to his church through the scriptures.

There is sadness in heaven because no one can open the scroll. But then one of the elders tells John what is happening. When all looks hopeless, the Bible tells us what Jesus has done and is doing. The Bible teaches that all is not lost, the elder tells John that the lion of Judah, is able to open the scroll. When John looks up to see this great powerful hero, what greets his eyes is the lamb that was slain by violence. The false elder cried ?Crucify him!? the true witness tells us the implications of Jesus? crucifixion. The true elder points John to the true lion hero, a lamb killed by violence, only he is able to open the seals and the scroll. The scroll appears to be history. Had Jesus not died for us there would be no more history, but Jesus is able to open the scrolls and history continues. If Jesus did not die, it would have shown that God had some selfishness in him and was unworthy of our love and worship. His life giving relationship would have been worthless. If he had not died, in heaven Enoch, Moses and Elijah would not have faced a firing squad of angels and the rest of the universe just move on as earth is destroyed. If selfishness, sin, was found in God it would have destroyed the entire universe. But the lamb killed by violence has won the victory! Because of him and this event, history can continue. The great lion hero, the lamb killed by violence is worthy to break open the seals and unroll the scroll.

Now just because history goes on, does not mean that what follows would be peaceful. Like the Hebrews in the wilderness, and the exile, we are delivered from sin and death, but not yet home. Different commentaries can teach different aspects and applications of the seals. Some apply the seals as a description of the church through history, others point out that it can also apply to hardships in general, as we go through cycles of warfare, bloodshed, famine and death. We can learn from both. The 4 living creatures say ?Come? because it is God?s people who are going through these things, including martyrdom. Sides will be chosen as to whether we will follow God or not. But also, our knowledge of truth is progressive. At different times in history there is present truth. We learn the truth from the Bible, the 24 elders. Even if there is a message from prophets, they are to base their authority and message from the Bible. The Bible is not like, say the story of Goldilocks and the 3 bears where we read the story and know the story and it ends there. The Bible is the living word of God, who brings to the church what God actually wants the church to know at that time in history. Thus we always need to study the Bible as we will always be learning more. When it is time for heaven to send us a new message, the Holy Spirit will point it out to different people here and there who are studying the pages of scripture.

Re: Who are the twenty four elders of Revelation? [Re: Rick H] #195353
01/14/23 11:31 PM
01/14/23 11:31 PM
Kevin H  Online Content
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Sadly the two charts I put in to show how the Hebrews camped around the tabernacle and how Revelation 4 and 5 are set did not work and you only have the words. So please let me picture in words:

When the Hebrews camped in the wilderness there was the sanctuary in the middle. In a squire on all four sides the Levites, including the priests camped. Then as a larger square around them was everyone else by their tribes. The four sides were represented by the Lion, the Man, the Ox and the Eagle.

In Ezekiel, as God's people went into exile, we find God traveling into exile with his people on a throne with angels with these same faces. In Revelation we are told of the angels unto the churches. This indicates that Ezekiel's angels were representing the 4 sides of the camp in the wilderness; and that ultimately the 4 living creatures are a representative of God's people either delivered from Egypt but not yet in Canaan, and God's people away from Canaan in exile.

Thus, the 4 living creatures are us, God's church delivered through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, but we are traveling through this sinful world, we are not yet in heaven.

Revelation 4 and 5 is a repeat of how the Hebrews camped in the wilderness and symbolic of when in exile. Only in Revelation 4 and 5 we don't have the Tabernacle in clear sight for us to camp around. Revelation 4 and 5 had God's throne, and the Trinity sitting in the true Tabernacle in heaven..

Thus God's in heaven. We the 4 living creatures are in exile on earth traveling to our true home. The square of the Levites including the Priests has been replaced with the 24 Elders. It was the job of the Levites, especially the Priests to bring messages from God in His Tabernacle to the people, the 4 living creatures. In Revelation 4 and 5 it is the 24 Elders doing the job of the priests in letting God's people know what God wants them to know.

I don't have the time to share the evidence now; but looking at the history of Judaism in Jesus' day, the evidence indicates that Jesus inquiry of the Sanhedrin was only before 23 Sadducee priests and the high priest for a total of 24 elders. These 24 elders were to teach the truth about Jesus. Instead of doing their job of giving the truth about Jesus, they brought Jesus to Pilate and told lies about Jesus.

John saw these 24 elders lie about Jesus. If this is the same John who wrote Revelation, he gets to see the heavenly counterparts of these 24 elders who were supposed to tell the truth about Jesus but ended up telling lies about Jesus. Thus we have the heavenly 24 Elders who constantly praise God, constantly tells the truth about Jesus, and this truth about Jesus causes the 4 living creatures/the church in exodus towards heaven to sing praises to God.

Re: Who are the twenty four elders of Revelation? [Re: Rick H] #195355
01/15/23 08:16 PM
01/15/23 08:16 PM
Daryl  Online Canadian

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Regarding the charts problem, did you try to use HTML code, or some other type of code?


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Who are the twenty four elders of Revelation? [Re: Rick H] #195367
01/20/23 11:52 PM
01/20/23 11:52 PM
Kevin H  Online Content
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Joined: Nov 2004
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No, not that computer literate. I only did a table on my word processing program that did not cut and paste here. Thank you.

Re: Who are the twenty four elders of Revelation? [Re: Rick H] #195447
02/10/23 05:44 PM
02/10/23 05:44 PM
dedication  Online Content
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Just a question:
Are the four living creatures and the 24 elders symbolic or literal?

The Lamb is symbolic of Christ and His sacrifice.
The Lion is symbolic of Christ taking the throne Judah, winning back mankinds lost inheritance.
The scroll is symbolic (I highly doubt all the councils, commands and history of earth could be contained in a literal scroll)

It seems the 24 elders are there as the symbolic leaders and representatives of the saints. It's easy to think of them as literal resurrect saints, ascending to heaven with Jesus when He returned 2000 years ago.
Yet the 4 living creatures sing the same song of Christ having redeemed "us" by His blood.
Could their strange appearance by symbolic?

Face of an eagle, an ox, a lion, also a figure of a man, designated as having "dominion" over the living creatures of the earth in Genesis ch1 v28. Some have suggested their symbolism is that they represent the future glorification of man along with all the living creatures of the world.

Any thoughts

Re: Who are the twenty four elders of Revelation? [Re: Rick H] #195453
02/12/23 08:47 PM
02/12/23 08:47 PM
Kevin H  Online Content
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Mrs. White writes a lot about the portrayals and symbols through out Revelation. We tend to be inconsistent, if it is something that we do not see in the natural world we then say it is symbolic, but if it is something we have seen or could in the right conditions see, then we make it literal.

The idea that the 24 elders are those who rose with Jesus seems to me to be speculation. I like what was presented to me in school about how the 4 living creatures were the four sides of the camp of Israel as they traveled from Egypt to Canaan. Then angels representing the four sides became a symbol in Ezekiel of God going into exile with His people. In both cases the 4 living creatures represent God's people not yet home. Thus in Revelation I understand the 4 living creatures to continue these two Old Testament symbols of God's people not yet home, and thus we are traveling through history heading towards home when Jesus will come to take us back.

As we compare the camp of Israel in the Sinai to the description of Revelation 4 and 5, we find in the Exodus the sanctuary was among the people, showing God's physical presence. In Revelation 4 and 5 God is physically present in heaven. But the 4 living creatures are in exodus heading home but not yet home. In the Exodus you had the Levites, including the Priests between the Sanctuary and the people, and who brought messages from God in the sanctuary to the people. In Revelation 4 and 5 the Levites are replaced by the 24 elders, and thus their job is to bring direct messages from God in His temple in heaven to His people traveling through history on earth.

The number 24 also stands for a quorum of the 70 elders. The Greek word for the court of Jewish elders was "Sanhedrin". What history tells us about the Sadducee courts during the second temple and what the Gospels tell us about Jesus before the Sanhedrin match, indicating that Jesus was only before 23 Sadducees and the Hight Priest for 24 elders. Their job was to teach the truth about Jesus, but they rejected their job and told lies about Jesus. Just as Ezekiel had 4 angels representing God's literal people in exile, so the 4 continue to represent God's people not being home. And the 24 elders are the heavenly counterpart to the 24 Sadducees, and they give the truth about Jesus. And also the 24 comes from two groups of 12: the testimony of the 12 tribes (the Old Testament) and the 12 apostles (the New Testament). And the message of Revelation 4 and 5 is that God does not leave us as orphans here, Heaven directly communicates with His people on earth through the 24 elders.

Re: Who are the twenty four elders of Revelation? [Re: Rick H] #195455
02/13/23 07:49 AM
02/13/23 07:49 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Interesting concepts, Kevin.
The four living creatures in Revelation 4 & 5 do seem to have connections with the four living creatures in Ezekiel 1 & 10, as well as with the ensigns on the four sides of Israel's wilderness camp
The man, eagle, ox, and lion, are a part of each depiction.

In each depiction, those creatures surround the throne of God.
In Ezekiel 1 & 10 the four living creatures are carrying a platform of sapphire stone, upon which was the likeness of a throne.

Rev. 4:6-7, ?and before the throne [is] a sea of glass like to crystal, and in the midst of the throne, and round the throne, are four living creatures, full of eyes before and behind; 7 and the first living creature like a lion, and the second living creature like a calf, and the third living creature has the face as a man, and the fourth living creature like an eagle flying.? (YLT)


Compare with Ezekiel?s description:

Ez. 1:5, 10; ?And out of its midst is a likeness of four living creatures, and this is their appearance; a likeness of man to them,? ?.. ?10 As to the likeness of their faces, the face of a man, and the face of a lion, toward the right [are] to them four, and the face of an ox on the left [are] to them four, and the face of an eagle [are] to them four.? (YLT)
Ezekiel identifies them as the cherubim Ez. 1:15, 20:

Cherubim are represented in the wilderness tabernacle over the mercy seat in the holy of holies (Ex. 25: 18-20), which is a representation of the throne of God.

Ex. 25:22, ?And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.? (KJV)

And yes, the Israelites camped in four sections surrounding the four sides of the wilderness sanctuary, three tribes on one side had the ensign of a lion, another three tribes on another side had the ensign of an ox, another three tribes on a 3rd side had the ensign of an eagle, and another three tribes on fourth side and had the ensign of a man.

The Levites, the priestly tribe (who were a 13th tribe since Joseph's descendants had two tribes), camped around the tabernacle as a buffer ring of protection between the sanctuary and the Israelites.

Numbers 1:53
But the Levites shall pitch round about the tabernacle of testimony, that there be no wrath upon the congregation of the children of Israel: and the Levites shall keep the charge of the tabernacle of testimony.


They were travelling to the promised land. Their camp an illustration of later realities in heaven.

In Ezekiel we see another illustration prefiguring the heavenly sanctuary.

In Ezekiel however, the priesthood is no longer doing their duty, they are not standing between (as priests) the people and a holy God, as intercessors. The priests have corrupted themselves with other gods and magical arts (see Ez.8). As have the majority of people.

The whole depiction here is that wrath is about to fall on Israel.


10:6 And it came to pass, that when he had commanded the man clothed with linen, saying, Take fire from between the wheels, from between the cherubims; then he went in, and stood beside the wheels.
10:7 And one cherub stretched forth his hand from between the cherubims unto the fire that [was] between the cherubims, and took [thereof], and put [it] into the hands of him that was clothed with linen: who took it, and went out.


Comparisons with Rev. 8:2-5 are evident.

A sealing work was taking place:

Ezekiel 9:3 And he called to the man clothed with linen, which [had] the writer's inkhorn by his side;
9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.


When he was finished, terrible destruction came upon the city.

But yes, God followed those who escaped the destruction and now lived in exile.

Ezek. 11:16 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come.
11:17 Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
11:18 And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.
11:19-20 And I will give them a new heart and put a new spirit within them, and take away the stony heart of flesh...that they may walk in my statues, and I will be their God and they shall be my people.





Re: Who are the twenty four elders of Revelation? [Re: Rick H] #195461
02/14/23 06:48 PM
02/14/23 06:48 PM
dedication  Online Content
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Might be interesting to see how these elders and living creatures connect with the rest of Revelation.

ELDERS
5:5 one of the elders comforts John
5:8 worship God and the Lamb
7:11 worship God when they see multitude of saved
7:13 one of the elders asks & answers question about white robed saints
11:17 worship God when Jesus receives His kingdom after the seventh trumpet
14:3 they listen, but don't sing, the song of the 144,000
19:4 worship God when Babylon is judged

FOUR LIVING CREATURES
4:8 Constantly saying "Holy, Holy,Holy Lord God Almighty"
4:9 Lead out in praising God
5:8 Worship the Lamb
6:1 Each beast introduces one of the four seals dealing with four horses, but not the other three seals.
7:11 Worship God when they see multitude of saved.
14:3 they listen, but don't sing, the song of the 144,000
15:7 One of the beasts gives the seven angels their bowls of plagues.
19:4 worship God when Babylon is judged

Re: Who are the twenty four elders of Revelation? [Re: Rick H] #195483
02/19/23 10:07 PM
02/19/23 10:07 PM
Kevin H  Online Content
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 630
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dedication, WOW!!!! Excellent study. I'll be using these posts. Listening to the professors at AUC helped me to see this, and Fleming's lecture about the death of Jesus and the Jews, giving the historical context of the Sadducee courts within the Sanhedrin, and it's connection to the 24 Elders even made it clearer.

Other suggestions I hear some may be held as well as the above, but most of what I hear seems to be speculation.

The 4 living beasts is God's church in exodus/exile. God actively communicates with with His church on earth through the testimony of the 12 tribes (the TANAK) and the testimony of the 12 apostles. As we consistently study the Bible, the Holy Spirit will point out things that we will need to know at the time we need to know it. And we will learn it from the pages of scripture.

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