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Secondary or Dual fulfillment of Prophecy #195321
01/10/23 04:06 PM
01/10/23 04:06 PM
Rick H  Offline
Group: Admin Team
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,086
Florida, USA
We see in Joel 2:23-27 what seems to be a direct reference to the children of Israel of prophecy to happen to them...

23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the Lord your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.

24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the vats shall overflow with wine and oil.

25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.

26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the Lord your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.

27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the Lord your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

and it includes the following in verses 28-32..

28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

And we see in Acts 2:14-21 that Peter applies this prophecy to the day of Pentecost.

14. But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15. For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17. And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18. And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19. And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Its clear that the Spirit being poured was being applied to the people before Peter, but its clear from the phrase "before that great and notable day of the Lord come:", that it would happen again at the end of time. I would see this as a dual fulfillment of the Prophecy, what is everyone's thoughts on this?

Last edited by Rick H; 01/10/23 04:07 PM.
Re: Secondary or Dual fulfillment of Prophecy [Re: Rick H] #195328
01/11/23 12:31 PM
01/11/23 12:31 PM
dedication  Offline
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Most of the classical prophecies which were directed primarily to the people living at that time, were, or could have been fulfilled to them depending on the conditions.
Like all the prophecies of a paradise kingdom in Isaiah, which still includes death and other elements that don't fit the later NT prophecies of heaven, were all what God intendent for Israel, as a nation, if they surrendered self to God and lived according to His commands and leading.
Also the curses -- directed at Israel, are still applicable, for those who refuse God's grace and ways will eventual if not immediately suffer them.

We see these conditions spelled out in the blessings and cursing in Deuteronomy.
They have dual applications, for God's people, as do many of the classical prophecies The fullness of their promises will be fulfilled to God's people in Christ, pointing to the second coming and the restoration of all things. Matthew 24 being a prime example, where Christ spoke of the fall of Jerusalem but added a lot of information for the endtimes.

Where we get into trouble with dual applications is when we take the prophetic timelines that span time from the prophets day to the final end. The 2300 years, the 70 years, the 1260 years are set in earth time marking the path of earth's journey through history. They are not to be seen as dual prophecies.

Yet, the trouble, and the forces that were at play during those prophetic periods, will rise again, HISTORY but now not linked to time frames, not the prophecy itself, will repeat.

Re: Secondary or Dual fulfillment of Prophecy [Re: Rick H] #195330
01/11/23 09:23 PM
01/11/23 09:23 PM
Kevin H  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 620
New York
Good information!!! Now, I know that this bother's you, but the same principle fits with the 2300 evening-mornings, the 70 years and the 1260 days (I know how we use the text, but there are conservative Adventist scholars who are noting that the 1260 days might be related to the 70 weeks of years, which already has the day-year application, and thus we might be doubling the day-year principle. We will have to wait to see how they conclude this issue. But we are definitely correct on the 2300 evenings-mornings and 70 weeks of years.)

Anyway, the day-year principle was re-discovered by Joachim of Flor when he was in the Middle East. This is correct, however what Joachim did not learn is that the day-year is NOT the ONLY option. The entire truth, that Joachim only learned in part is found in Leviticus 23, 25 and here and there throughout Deuteronomy. Now, the 70 weeks of years is very clear that it is the day-year application. If we are using the 1260 correctly we would be wise of the options, which may lead to any future clarification that the Holy Spirit will only reveal IF needed. For now we need to be faithful to thus far has the Lord lead us, and hold to what we currently understand and teach. Now the 2300 is specifically 2300 evenings-mornings, which is a specific reference to the cycles. In specifically Daniel 8, the prophecy is set in a year that includes 2300 literal days to the end of Babylon, Belshazzar's feast, and the early days of Medio-Persia. Daniel 9 reapplies it to connect it, not to the fall of Babylon, but to connect the 2300 cycles to the 70 weeks of years. 1844 was without a doubt the 2300 cycles with the day/year option that Leviticus and Deuteronomy give us. But that does not mean that if the conditions were met that God could not have used some of the shorter options.

I agree with you completely about the prophecies at the end of Isaiah which sounds a lot like heaven, but not quite heaven. These are what God wanted to do through the Hebrews over the 70 weeks of years in preparation of the world for the coming redeemer.

Re: Secondary or Dual fulfillment of Prophecy [Re: Rick H] #195378
01/24/23 06:22 AM
01/24/23 06:22 AM
dedication  Offline
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Nice to agree on understanding the classical prophesies, but yes, thinking of the timelines as having several applications does bother me, for it makes them relative to circumstances, not reliable waymarks of history.

True, different people have interpreted them differently.
Both the preterists and the futurists think of them as literal, except for the seventy sevens, they may see them as 490 years, but only because the "sevens" can be interpreted as weeks of years, or weeks of days. But most, instead of seeing this as a key to understanding the "day for a year" principle in Daniel's prophecies, treat it as only applying to the 70 weeks of years.

Since preterists and futurists with their literal day is day interpretation of prophecy, now far outnumber the remaining historicists, the day for a year principle is loosing it's importance in the minds of many. If these prophecies are only depicting events that take place in a very short time (three and a half to six years) it's easy to think they could have many applications.

Thus Adventists, who hold to the historicist school of thought (which fueled the reformation) now find themselves in a position different from most other interpreters of Daniel and Revelation (which shifted and accepted and enlarged the counter-reformations explanation for preterism and futurism)
The problem is that quite a few Adventist scholars go to non-Adventist institutions to get their doctorate degrees and then come back with "new ways of looking at the prophecies" that are in conflict with more than just timelines.

But the context of these prophecies favor the historicist view.
For example, in Daniel 8 the question is asked "how long the vision" ? OK, the vision covers time from Media Persia, through Greek history, and on to the horn that grows exceedingly great. Can't contain all that in 2300 literal days (just over six literal years). I realize some attribute the 2300 days to their understanding of the time the daily is removed and the abomination is set up, but Daniel 12:11 tells us that lasted 1290 days not 2300. The 2300 days cover the WHOLE vision.

Or Daniel 7, there's a whole series of symbolic beasts, so shouldn't the three and a half times period in which the symbolic horn persecutes the saints also be symbolic? Didn't the Roman papal horn persecute MUCH longer than three and a half literal years?

OK -- what's coming in now is saying, yes the day for a year principle does apply to the long years spanning the past, leading up to 1844, but now we need new time lines, let's turn all those long time lines into literal day for a day timelines so we can map out the future.
But Christ Himself , the mighty messenger speaking like the roar of a lion, announced in Rev. 10:6 that time shall be no longer. Time was no longer even though there was more to be done, it wasn't the end yet. The time lines have ended.
We are in the waiting period that is not based on any time.

Since 1844, which marks the end of earth's timelines, those who take the timelines as literal time, or reapply them to literal time yet to be fulfilled have used them to set new dates for Christ's return. Every few years we hear of a new date! It makes a mockery of prophecy, and undermines that they are SURE standing as huge monuments of God's perfect omniscience.

But the Bible itself indicates those timelines are symbolic by wording them in different ways to speak of the same event and time
When understood symbolically
42 symbolic months are the same as 1260 symbolic days, and three and half times.
Because a symbolic month has exactly 30 days and 30 X 42 = 1260
A symbolic time (year) has 360 days. So 360 X 3.5 = 1260
So the symbolic reckoning is the same for each.

But change that to literal time -- They aren't the same any more.

The woman of Rev. 12 -- flees to the wilderness for 1260 days. That period is repeated as time, times, half time, (three and a half years) which is more like 1278 days if we take it literally. 1260 doesn't match.
The two witnesses in Rev. 11 -- the sackcloth period is both 1260 days, as well as 42 months.
Again, in literal time they don't match; 42 literal months is about 1277 days, not 1260.

In both these cases the definition of 1260 is given to verify these timelines need to be understood as symbolic.

Re: Secondary or Dual fulfillment of Prophecy [Re: Rick H] #195405
01/30/23 08:17 PM
01/30/23 08:17 PM
Kevin H  Offline
Active Member 2024

Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 620
New York
The idea of "Dual Fulfillment" bothers me. It is a point where I strongly dissagree with Desmond Ford. Technically what we have can be called "exegesis" how it could have been directly fulfilled if faithful, and seeing analogies where we can apply the principle from the exegesis.

Another way of looking at this which is not perfect but close enough to the truth to freely use was developed by a Catholic Theologian in the dark ages but saw something in the Bible that he called "Type" and "Antitype". We can look at the exegesis as the type and how it ended up being fulfilled, or how it will end up being fulfilled, as the antitype.

It is NOT dual fulfillments. Daniel did not have on his mind besides the events of his day and what he was looking for for God's kingdom but also had on mind Antiochus, New Testament events, Reformation events and Adventist events. Daniel saw the issues of his day and how God could restore the kingdom and the son of David. Not the other stuff. Some of which we can draw analogies, others which is simply garbage. We understand the correct analogies as we understand the exegesis. But these analogies are NOT a dual fulfillment. They are simply us saying "Hey, we can apply the principles from that time to the situation we are finding in this time." I hope this helps!!!

Re: Secondary or Dual fulfillment of Prophecy [Re: Rick H] #195414
02/02/23 03:09 PM
02/02/23 03:09 PM
dedication  Offline
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I agree that we apply the principles from each fulfilment of Daniel's prophecies to our time. For HISTORY is repeated, not the prophecy itself. We are to learn and take warning, these situations will rebound they haven't gone away.

When it comes to Daniel and Revelation I don't believe it's about what Daniel or John were thinking nor is it about trying to fit the visions into their present situations. I fully believe those visions were God Himself revealing to these prophets things far beyond their capability of thinking, God revealed to them in prophetic revelation the broad picture covering all time from their day to the full restoration of God's kingdom at the end of the world.

Even Daniel nine, is NOT JUST about "what might have been" for the Jews. Yes, it reveals that Israel was given another 490 years to embrace the covenant so they could have experienced "what might have been". God gave them that extended time period, for God always gives full opportunity to reach the promises given in the classical prophecies.
Yet Daniel nine already indicates they will NOT receive those promises for they would choose the wrong prince. There is the interplay of two different princes in Daniel nine. Messiah the Prince that came to save, and the prince that comes to destroy.

God's foreknowledge includes not only what will happen, it also includes what might have been.
So we see here in Daniel 9 something that could have gone two different ways, 490 years and the Messiah would come to establish their kingdom in righteousness, but if they are on a different agenda, and reject Him (which they did) the prince they chose, when they shouted "we have no king but Caesar, " would destroy their city and their sanctuary.
Messiah the Prince would be "cut off" crucified, in the midst of the final week of grace, and they would reap the fruits of their choice.

Daniel 7 and 8's primary focus is NOT on the Jewish nation.
Interestingly Daniel 8 has the kingdoms, Persia and Greece, pictured as sacrificial animals, a ram and a goat, as they ruled while Israel's temple was still there offering pardon and hope during the 69 weeks (483 years). But the horn that came up after them, and ruled, was not attached to any sacrificial animal. It came up out of west and conquered. The earthly temple was left desolate, its sacrificial system had ended. It was also destroyed for the Jewish nation had rejected the Lamb of God!

Notice -- Daniel does NOT speak of any sacrificing in connection with the horn in Daniel eight. The translators of the Bible ADDED the word, "sacrifice", to the daily. The DAILY is a noun, not an adjective.
Daniel told us in Daniel 9:27 that Messiah the Prince would cause sacrifices and oblations to cease in the midst of the last week of the 490 years.
After that the "daily" ministration was carried on in the heavenly sanctuary, where Christ had entered having fulfilled the sacrifice on the cross.
The earthly sanctuary would be desolate till the end of time.

Daniel eight focuses on the attack on the Sanctuary where Christ is ministering.
Daniel, himself, did NOT understand, yes, Daniel was concerned about the situation of the Jewish people, and this vision in chapter eight trouble him so much he fainted and was sick for several days. He could not understand it. This wasn't something he came up with, it was God revealing something that reached far beyond Daniel's thinking or understanding.
So in Daniel 9 the angel returns to show where the Jewish nation fit into the picture of this long vision, but that covered only 490 of 2300 years.

Re: Secondary or Dual fulfillment of Prophecy [Re: Rick H] #195421
02/04/23 01:07 AM
02/04/23 01:07 AM
dedication  Offline
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Rereading Rick's OP post On Joel 2:23-32

Here's how I understand that passage.

I see the verses 23-27 as being literal promises of literal rain in the spring and fall, which farmers depended on to grow bountiful crops. Their return to God would end the drought and insect damage, and God would enable them to fill their barns with wheat and other produce.

Secondly, in Joel 2:28-32, the literal spring and fall rains are an example of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. That includes the two rains, the early rain and the latter rain.

In Acts 2 Peter claims the promise in Joel 2.
The Pentecostal outpouring of the Holy Spirit is considered the "spring" or early rain.
The outpouring that caused the church to take root and grow.

But that's just the early rain, Joel's predictions includes things that did not happen at Penticost.

The latter rain will come to empower God's people to give the last "loud cry" and prepare them to stand in the time of trouble (which is touched on in Joel 2)

So it's not actually a dual fulfillment.
There was the early "rain" at Pentecost
The latter rain comes shortly before the final events wrap up.
Two different parts of the same prophecy.

Under the figure of the early and the latter rain, that falls in Eastern lands at seedtime and harvest, the Hebrew prophets foretold the bestowal of spiritual grace in extraordinary measure upon God's church. The outpouring of the Spirit in the days of the apostles was the beginning of the early, or former, rain, and glorious was the result. . . . But near the close of earth's harvest, a special bestowal of spiritual grace is promised to prepare the church for the coming of the Son of man. This outpouring of the Spirit is likened to the falling of the latter rain. {FLB 333.2}
The latter rain, ripening earth's harvest, represents the spiritual grace that prepares the church for the coming of the Son of man.

There is however, another personal application: each person needs the "early rain" in their experience, to prepare them to receive the latter rain'

But unless the former rain has fallen, there will be no life; the green blade will not spring up. Unless the early showers have done their work, the latter rain can bring no seed to perfection. . . . {FLB 333.3}

Moderator  dedication, Rick H 

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