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Re: The King of the North [Re: dedication] #195449
02/12/23 08:09 AM
02/12/23 08:09 AM
ProdigalOne  Offline
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Originally Posted by dedication
The thing that struck me while studying some of this is that the battle to re-establish the semi-feudal regime is not just history, it is coming back in full force. And with it the "wound" will be healed, control will be re-established.

The feudal system that brought the dark ages and held that darkness over the people for many centuries, was based on people existing in mainly three levels. Ecclesiastical, the Nobles, and the common peasants.
There were the warrior nobility who were given land when they fulfilled certain military obligations. There was also a whole network of dioceses ruled by arch bishops, bishops and abbots . Then there were the commoners who became the vassals, these were people who were given responsibility for a piece of land, under the control of the nobility or lord. The land was known as a fief. In exchange for the use of the fief and protection by the lord, the vassal would provide some sort of services to the lord. It was a system where the more elite nobility had considerable control over the lower classes, and often exploited them.

When the elite get the ownership of the land and all resources, the rest become servants and vassals, at the mercy of the controlling elite. It was part of the system during the middle ages, and many are the warnings that things are being contrived to move the population into that mode again.

I definitely agree, dedication! Efforts to return humanity to neo-feudalism have been underway for some time:

?You'll Own Nothing and Be Happy (originally You'll Own Nothing and You'll Be Happy) is a catchphrase originating from a 2016 essay by Danish MP Ida Auken which was included in the video "8 Predictions for the World in 2030" by the World Economic Forum. While the prediction was originally explained as "all products will become services," in has since been increasingly regarded as a harbinger of dystopian times when the human right to property would be abolished for the benefit of the few.? https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/youll-own-nothing-and-be-happy

The head of the WEF repeated this message more blatantly in July 2021

?You Will Own Nothing and Be Happy,? said Klaus Schwab, Founder and Executive Chairman of the World Economic Forum. As Anthony P. Mueller, a professor of economics, warns, ?The main thrust of the forum is global control. Free markets and individual choice do not stand as the top values, but state interventionism and collectivism. Individual liberty and private property are to disappear from this planet by 2030.? https://www.americaoutloud.com/you-will-own-nothing-and-be-happy-klaus-schwab/

One of the chief strategies for barring ?commoners? from land ownership is well underway. How can the middle class own land if there is no land for sale? The papal controlled investment firm Blackstone, the most powerful corporation on earth with more than $730 billion in assets under management, is a leader in the BTR juggernaut gaining momentum around the globe.

?If you?re not familiar with the concept of the build-to-rent (BTR) (rather than build-to-sell (BTS)) sector ? you should be.

Over the last couple of years, BTR has been tipped as one of the biggest commercial asset hits, and its growth in the Australian market over recent years has been rapid, to say the least.

Put simply, build-to-rent is the corporatisation of the rental market.

Properties that are designed and constructed to be used exclusively for rental accommodation.

The developments are owned by large institutional landlords who manage and control the tenancies.?

"...I will not forget you.
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."

Isaiah 49:15-16
Re: The King of the North [Re: dedication] #195468
02/17/23 05:34 PM
02/17/23 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by dedication
Daniel 11:40 At the time of the end the king of the South shall attack him; and the king of the North shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter the countries, overwhelm them, and pass through.

The Christian countries stretched across the northern coast of the Mediterranean from England to Turkey. While things shifted some, back and forth especially in the middle east. The north and south overall picture remained, Christians powers (Roman and Orthodox) to the north. Muslims powers generally to the south of the Christian powers.
It's hard to accept that a very short stint of Napoleon in Egypt, would over ride what has been the big picture of who's in the north and who's in the south for centuries.

Is Islam the king of the South?

Is Islam the king of the South?
We discussed this probability already in previous posts, but this time I'd like to look at it from a religious aspect.

It seems, as I visit various religious websites and it even appeared here in the past, that there is a strong (often hostile) movement urging people to deny the full Deity of Christ.

What about the Muslims, what do they believe on this matter concerning Jesus?

The big question -- Jesus asks of all? "Who do you say that I am?" We spend time figuring out who the king of the north is, and who the king of the south is, but the real question in all this is "Who do we say Jesus Christ Is".

According to "aboutislam.net" Muslims believe Jesus is coming again. Is it the same Jesus we believe is coming again?
Muslims hold the following beliefs about the second coming of Jesus:

  • *Jesus was a real historical person|
    * He was a great and blessed prophet of God, living in Israel two thousand years ago, preaching to his people..
    *He was the son of Mary, miraculously born, but not the Son of God.
    * His existence beginning at birth.
    *He was the Messiah (Masih) prophesied by the earlier Israelite prophets.
    *He did not die on a cross. It was made to appear as if He was crucified, but they did not kill Him, He ascended to Allah (4:157-158 Quran)
    *For them any concept of blood sacrifice by the Son of God to save sinful Man is abhorrent to reason, justice, and the very idea of an All-Merciful God.
    * They believe Jesus is alive and is coming again.
    *The return of Jesus is a sign of the end times.
    *When He comes, He will clear all the confusion prevailing in the world regarding his life and mission|
    *He will defeat the antichrist..
    *He will follow the law of God (Sharia law) as perfected by the final Prophet, Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).

Islam denies the most central doctrines of Christianity, namely the divinity and eternal existence of Jesus, the incarnation of God, the Word, in the flesh, and the substitutionary death, as well as the resurrection of Jesus on the Cross.
They deny that at the second coming Christ appears as King of kings. Instead they believe Jesus will come again a great and noble prophet come from heaven to set the records straight .
Basically their belief is that Jesus coming is to establish Islam on earth.

According to their teachings, He comes again to disprove that He is God with the Father, or that He is the Son of God, for both concepts are considered terrible blasphemy that must be extinguished.

Finally, an Islamic historian says that when Jesus returns, he will descend at the white minaret in Damascus, marry, have children, and die after forty years (Field Guide on the Islamic Apocalypse).

When people say Muslims believe in Jesus and his second coming.
It is not what that phrase sounds like and means at all.


https://aboutislam.net/counseling/ask-about-islam/second-coming-jesus https://www.zwemercenter.com/guide/jesus-in-islam/


Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195469
02/18/23 05:30 AM
02/18/23 05:30 AM
ProdigalOne  Offline
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?When Islam speaks of Jesus coming to ?break the crosses? it means to destroy the idea that Jesus died on the cross and rose again from the dead before ascending into heaven. The Islamic Jesus will also destroy all those who believe this and send them to hell.?

?Radical Islamists believe when Jesus comes again, he will kill all the Christians (except those who believe him to be merely God?s servant or messenger rather than the Son of God). There is also this notorious hadith:?

?Narrated ?Abdullah bin ?Umar: Allah?s Apostle said, ?You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, ?O ?Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.? ? So killing Jews and Christians becomes a way to prepare for the second coming of Jesus.?


"...I will not forget you.
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."

Isaiah 49:15-16
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195476
02/18/23 11:32 PM
02/18/23 11:32 PM
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Yes, there is animosity against the cross in Islam. The cross symbolizes the Son of God dying to redeem mankind from their sin. Animosity for the what took place at the cross, as well as against the symbol itself, begins with Muhammad. He ?had such a repugnance to the form of the cross that he broke everything brought into his house with its figure upon it"

As Sidney Griffith, author of The Church in the Shadow of the Mosque, put it:
?The cross and the icons publicly declared those very points of Christian faith which the Koran, in the Muslim view, explicitly denied: that Christ was the Son of God and that he died on the cross.? Thus ?the Christian practice of venerating the cross and the icons of Christ and the saints aroused the disdain of Muslims,? so that there was an ongoing ?campaign to erase the public symbols of Christianity, especially the previously ubiquitous sign of the cross.?
We hear reports every so often of attacks on churches and buildings in France, Italy, Germany as well as further east where the Christian religious icons are destroyed.

Now lets take this a step further.
In the earlier accounts of the king of the North and King of the South depiction, God's people were in the middle.
Where do we as a church stand on this issue?

But first what is the position of the king of the North concerning the cross and religious icons?
KN They believe Christ died on the cross and rose again.
KN The symbol of the cross is worn as a necklace and carried in other ways, and is rather highly venerated almost like a good luck charm. The churches in Catholicism and other denominations that follow Catholic traditions are filled with symbol replica's of Biblical things, statutes, crosses, etc. These things decorate their churches and church supplies, their homes, their schools.
KN Took the 2nd commandment right out of the Bible.

Where do Adventists stand on this issue?
While standing in awe and reverence at the thought of what happened at the cross, and worshipping the One Who died upon the cross, Adventists are not into wearing crosses or having crosses and statutes decorating their walls everywhere. Though we are seeing a bit more of this than was evident in years past.

Yes, Christians fought over this issue.

In the early church, the making and veneration of portraits of Christ, the saints, and relics, were consistently opposed. The use of icons nevertheless steadily gained in popularity, especially in the Roman Empire. In the 700's and 800's we read of emperors in the Byzantine Empire condemning them, then others encouraged them, then again they would be condemned. Rome, on the other hand encouraged them and basically won. Icons, statutes, crosses and other icons were everywhere, and they were venerated.

Reformers preached against icons. That nearly undid Luther, when the peasant revolt went about invading churches and smashing all the icons, Luther was blamed for the revolt, but he denounced the peasants as fanatical and supported the ruthless destruction of the peasants,
Early Puritans had no icons whatsoever in their worship buildings, or homes.

What would happen IF Muslims in all these countries they now have a sizable representation, got a message the time had come to "break the cross" and bring the world into Islamic control? and they believed it was to literally break crosses, in churches, in buildings, in all public places.
Atheists would probably support them in this, as they too are "offended" by Christian symbols.

In the past, Rome fought to promote and push iconoclasm. Would they do less now?
Would all Christendom support them, to defend Christendom? Could it unite with other conflicts and snowball

Remember we are still looking for the trigger. What is the king of the south going to do that will give the king of the north the excuse to go to war and over run many countries.
(I have a feeling many things will fit into the picture, a lot of things will snowball to escalate into final crises, but the above could well be a key

Re: The King of the North [Re: dedication] #195533
03/04/23 09:55 AM
03/04/23 09:55 AM
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Salvation --
Scripture tells us
Acts 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him does this man stand here before you whole.
4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

So, a religion that fights against the cross of Christ (whose aim to "break the cross") and which denies the Divinity of Christ, denies His death on the cross for our salvation, and denies that only in Jesus Christ can salvation be found, is fighting against the only means of Salvation.

I think we have shown that the Muslim religion has that agenda.
They have a belief in their version of a historical "Jesus" who is seriously against and opposed to the Savior Jesus Christ.

The people who have taken over the realms of the Old Testament king of the South (Arabia, Egypt, Northern Africa) are Islamic (Muslims). The fact that they spread far further than that, only makes them more powerful.

KING OF THE SOUTH = Islamic (Muslims)
King of the South denies Christ's divinity and denies Him as the only means of salvation.

KING OF THE NORTH = Papal Led Christianity
King of the north has set himself in the place of Christ, and claims to offer salvation through their sacraments, which imitate (counterfeit) the work of Christ

The battle in the end, is over Salvation in Christ Alone and God's people are caught in the middle of these two opposing forces.

Some have likened this battle to the Exodus of Israel from Egypt.
Egypt of course would symbolize the King of the South and his territories.

The DECEPTIVE issue here is that the King of the North, comes in the disguise of the Lord.
He comes in the disguise of the great liberator.

The king of the north is revealed in Revelation.
There we see Babylon. We concluded from Biblical information that the king takes upon himself the role of God, for in Revelation 13:4,8 it says everyone, except those in the book of life, will be worshipping at Babylon's shrine. (And 2 Thess.2:4 tells us he exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.)

In Revelation the unholy trinity formed by the dragon, the beast from the sea, and the beast from the earth constitute Babylon and attempt to usurp the role of God on earth (Rev. 12-14). Babylon, like the king of the north, unifies the kings of the earth (Rev. 16:13).
Daniel already told us this king of the north usurped Christ's "daily" ministry, and tried to throw the place of the heavenly sanctuary, where Christ's "daily ministry" was taking place, down to this earth (where he set up his own counterfeit priestly ministry) . (Daniel 8:11, 11:31)

The King of the South: In early verses of Daniel 11 it refers to the king of the south as Egypt. The symbol of Egypt is a predominantly negative biblical symbol. They often used the serpent as a symbol. It is a land whose king has no respect for the Lord and openly challenges Him (Ex. 5:2). Yet Egypt was not really atheistic, they worshipped their counterfeit gods. The king of Egypt challenged the true God.
Remember it is Jesus Christ, that Lucifer challenged in Heaven. It was the Divine prerogatives of the Son of God, Michael, Who commanded all the angels as the Captain of the Hosts, that roused the unreasonable and disastrous jealousy in Lucifer, which led to the war in the first place. (Rev. 12:7)

While the king of the north is interested in occupying the place of God, by usurping Christ's role in salvation, the king of the south simply denies Christ's role in salvation altogether. It could easily include people for whom the biblical concept of salvation is unnecessary as well. People who still believe in what they call the "Force" but sense no need for salvation nor the cross.

The king of the north will overcome them when the wound inflicted on the beast from the sea is healed (Rev. 13:3). The serious deception here, is that what appears to be good will turn out to be what it really is: an attempt to usurp God?s power on earth.

We can find further parallels for Daniel 11:40-45 and the king of the north in Revelation under the symbol of Babylon.

The good news in all this for us, is that in both Daniel and Revelation God and His people are victorious.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195545
03/08/23 09:27 AM
03/08/23 09:27 AM
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Where is the "Glorious Land" ?

Daniel 11:41 He shall enter also into the glorious land
11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain;

Other references to this glorious land:

Daniel 8:9 "And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land." (KJV)

Daniel 11:16 " But he who comes against him shall do as he wills, and none shall stand before him. And he shall stand in the glorious land, with destruction in his hand.

Ez. 20:6,15 On that day I swore to them that I would bring them out of the land of Egypt into a land that I had searched out for them, a land flowing with milk and honey, the most glorious of all lands.

In all the other references the "glorious land" and "glorious holy mountain" depict Jerusalem and the land around it.
Israelites would definitely have understood it as such.

Some commentators, however, switch in these last verses 11:41,45 to a spiritual symbolic meaning of "glorious land" as being the church.
The king of the north being identified as the combined papal led Christian armies, it doesn't really make sense to say the Glorious land is the church. Of course some say the "glorious land" is Sabbath keepers all over the world.

However, since we identify the glorious land in both Daniel 8:9. and 11:16 as the literal place over there in Palestine, it seems logical to identify it as such in these last verses of Daniel 11, as Jerusalem or Palestine as well.

Now consider what one of the greatest last day deception is going to be.

" In the last days he (Satan) will appear in such a manner as to make men believe him to be Christ come the second time into the world. He will indeed transform himself into an angel of light. But while he will bear the appearance of Christ in every particular, so far as mere appearance goes, it will deceive none but those who, like Pharaoh, are seeking to resist the truth. Testimonies for the Church 5:698 (1889).
The glory that surrounds him is unsurpassed by anything that mortal eyes have yet beheld. The shout of triumph rings out upon the air: ?Christ has come! Christ has come!? LDE 163

People (Christians, Muslims, Jews and others)
Are all expecting Messiah to appear and set up in Jerusalem.

Yet it is the king of the north who enters the glorious land in verse 41. The king of the North is seeking world control and works to achieve that in the next verses. It's not till verse 45 that he sets up his tents in Jerusalem (the tabernacles of his palace). In Exodus the tabernacle is seen as a tented palace for Israel?s divine king, with a special "most holy place" where the shekinah glory appeared. But here in Daniel we see the king of the north, the counterfeit setting up the tabernacle of his palace, and a glorious, supernatural bright shining being, who claims to be Jesus joins them. And all the people shout "Christ has Come". People's own senses will tell them that this is Christ, confirmed by miracles. BUT Remember in the very next verse, it will come to their end.

For the REAL Christ stands up!

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195550
03/11/23 07:28 PM
03/11/23 07:28 PM
ProdigalOne  Offline
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I just finished watching a Q&A panel from the Daniel 11 Conference at Village SDA Church - March 9th-11th 2023, that may have some pertinent points for this thread. So much knowledge and wisdom shared with an amazingly humble spirit. Differing views were presented and amicably discussed, and some minds were even changed. https://www.youtube.com/live/kP5sGFeJa8c?feature=share

"...I will not forget you.
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."

Isaiah 49:15-16
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195551
03/11/23 07:44 PM
03/11/23 07:44 PM
ProdigalOne  Offline
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I found Pastor Tim Roosenberg?s presentation concerning the possibility that the King of the South, Daniel 11:40, is actually a coalition of Islamic and Atheistic powers to be enlightening.

Pastor Roosenberg?s presentation begins at the 2:05 mark. https://www.youtube.com/live/Lr6wLJBt9n8?feature=share

"...I will not forget you.
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."

Isaiah 49:15-16
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195552
03/11/23 07:55 PM
03/11/23 07:55 PM
ProdigalOne  Offline
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Are we witnessing the coalescence of the King of the South alliance: Islamic nations/Russia/China, that will face off against the King of the North: Papacy/USA/NATO?

?Saudi Arabia, long a US partner, appears to be shaking off its commitment to a unipolar US world. It says a lot about how Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman conducts foreign policy as the kingdom brings China and Iran closer, in pursuit of security outside traditional Western allies. ?MBS has a preference for an alternative world order that is dominated by the likes of Xi and [Russian President Vladimir] Putin,? says Khalid Al-Jabri, a Saudi entrepreneur and physician. ?Take away the grievances between the Saudi and the Iranian regimes, and they are actually more alike than they?re different.? https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/3/10/23634464/deal-saudi-arabia-iran-china-explained

"...I will not forget you.
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."

Isaiah 49:15-16
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195554
03/12/23 01:23 PM
03/12/23 01:23 PM
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Very interesting information, Prodigal. Spend several hours listening yesterday to the various presentations, yes they were amicably, presenting DIFFERING views, but it was interesting to hear the differing logic they used to support their views.

Yes, this one especially was interesting
Pastor Roosenberg's presentation beginning at the 2:05:38 mark. https://www.youtube.com/live/Lr6wLJBt9n8?feature=share

His view puts a lot more meaning showing a bigger picture of the battle being fought throughout history, while most of the others were more interested in identifying every detail. (Though the details need to fit the picture)

The biggest challenge is how to relate this vision to understanding more about the great battle being fought against Jesus Christ, and His redemption plan for the inhabitants of the earth.

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