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Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195611
03/31/23 09:07 PM
03/31/23 09:07 PM
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If the king of the south is composed of Islam, Russia, China and Atheism combined.
If the king of the north is composed of the the papacy, linked with the western pseudo Christian nations
what would that mean?

If that erupted into full fledged war, the earth would be decimated .

How much of this is a spiritual battle (which I believe plays a huge part) The king of the north is the papacy working with the transformed into his image lamb like beast America, and the ten horns of Europe.
How much is actual war? (the whirlwind, horsemen, chariots and ships sound like actual war)
How much is diplomacy and deception? (power over treasures, nations falling into step, sounds like diplomacy and coercion)

We've always kind of dismissed Russia and China as players in this prophecy. Yet, we are told in spirit of prophecy that the last battle will involve the whole world.

So a possible idea (and it's just an idea, nothing more)
Just my own imagination putting things together that may, or may not fit.

The Islamic powers (like Saudi Arabia and others) ease away from their links with America and Europe and start looking to China and Russia instead.
We've had a couple wars already where America bombs eastern countries, and keeping control of oil was a factor in those wars. So this issue is something in the news now, could trigger something big.

CNN reports just a week ago
China?s growing role in the Middle East of late has alarmed Washington. This month alone, Beijing mediated a landmark agreement between archfoes Iran and Saudi Arabia that could help significantly ease Middle East tensions. Saudi Arabia also significantly strengthened its energy ties with China by announcing on Monday a $3.6 billion deal to buy 10% of China?s Rongsheng Petrochemical, which would see it supply 480,000 barrels per day of crude oil to the company....

Europe and America are losing their grip on oil rich middle east countries. And what with Green Climate lobbying shutting down so much of Canadian, USA and European oil production, just one hard winter will show how much the whole economy is built on oil, and they find themselves woe fully short. Sunday laws, which are already suggested, will come in to limit travel and shopping, and the use of gas and oil, They will be enforced with penalties and fines. But all those laws don't solve the oil crises, civilization is crashing without access to oil.

How can the western countries who sided with the king of the North get any oil when the middle east (Islamic countries) have moved their trade to deal with China and Russia, not so much with America and Europe. It won't take too much for an excuse to attack the middle east to bring those countries back and gain control of the "treasured" oil and riches of the middle east, Egypt and others. There will be the initial "whirlwind". A quick war. Next the papacy, as the big peace maker uses diplomacy to bring them all around. While some surrendered during the whirlwind war, many of the Islamic countries in the area will be won over by diplomacy .

But China and Russia, though busy with their own affairs during the initial whirl wind take over, now rise to revenge the King of the North and defend, (try to liberate) their new allies in the middle east.

Are they the NEWS FROM THE EAST those big countries, with their MWD sending their armies --
At this point all hell breaks out on earth. If Russia or China send out a few nukes. The king of the North will go out to destroy many. We can count on that! The king of the north wins, BUT the after math is terrible. Whole cities were laid flat. People are in terrible physical shape. In times of extreme trouble people turn to religion. Sunday laws at this point are no longer just to stop producing carbon dioxide, now they are enforced in an attempt to appease God and ask God to stop the terror. The papacy and the evangelicals, and Jews implement the whole Jerusalem idea. And things get under way, preparing for the coming Messiah as they believe he will appear in Jerusalem, and a great shining, supernatural being appears claiming to be Jesus, sounding like Jesus. People think it is Jesus. He even manages to heal some of the physical health issues. But then tells them it's only when they all start worshipping on Sunday will the problem be solved.
Persecution begins in deadly earnest. When some refuse, the answer is to eliminate them.
But then Jesus stands up to deliver His people.

Could it come about like that???

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195612
04/01/23 08:58 AM
04/01/23 08:58 AM
daylily  Offline
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Well....according to the Bible, the king of the South was Egypt and is still Egypt. I see no place in the Bible that it was ever changed to some "ism".

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195613
04/02/23 08:45 AM
04/02/23 08:45 AM
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Hi Daylily, good to see you posting!

Actually I don't see the Bible saying the King of the South is Egypt.
What it is saying is the King of the South is the ruler of the lands south of Jerusalem.

Daniel 11 starts with the kings of Persian Empire, then moves to the great king, which most scholars agree is Alexander the Great from Greece, who conquered lands from Greece all the way to India and down into northern Africa. But he died young, and his kingdom was divided into four parts. These four Grecian parts fought with each other each trying to get control of the whole empire.

In history one of these divisions were the Ptolemies, and their leader is called the ?king of the South?, the rulers of this kingdom based their headquarters in a city built by Alexander in the Egyptian delta, so yes, Egypt was under their domain.
The division of Alexander's empire that was to the north of Jerusalem was Syria, whose kings were called the Seleucids. The Seleucid leader was called the ?king of the North?.
Yet both of these "kings" or kingdoms covered more territory than their headquarters.

Ptolemy (the king of the south) was a Macedonian, not an Egyptian. He was a close friend of Alexander the Great, who build the city of Alexandria, which became the Ptolemaic capital. The Ptolemaic kingdom was a Hellenistic, Greek kingdom and a center of Hellenistic culture and learning, which adopted some outward trappings of Egyptian culture. The rulers were of Greek linage, the natives could only hold lower positions. Alexandria was a huge trade center and held the key to Mediterranean trade and held control of coastal Arabian and eastern north Africa coastal centers. Greek was the main language of this kingdom, even after Rome conquered them. Greek remained the language of the upper classes right up to the time of the Muslim conquest in 641 AD.

The king of the south was not Egypt, the king of the South was a foreign ruler over Egypt and coastal areas both to the east and west of Egypt.

So who rules Egypt and controls the trade in those areas now?
Islamic Arabs conquered Egypt, and while Egyptians claim their ancestry is Egyptian, they speak the Arabian language and support the Islamic religion.

That too me means the ruling power is the Islamic powers in the middle east. -- they cover all the area the Ptolemies (king of the south) covered back in 300 BC. (and a whole lot more)

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195617
04/02/23 08:17 PM
04/02/23 08:17 PM
daylily  Offline
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Dan 11:7-8 tells us where the king of the South was from.

The king of the South was whoever was ruling Egypt. thatś what made him the king of the South. It wasn't the particular individual, it was the fact that he was ruling the south, Egypt. The thing that remained constant was that the person was ruling the south, not where he was from. If in the last days, the king of the south doesn't have to be a king or be from the south, then the two defining characteristic don't matter. Those are the only two defining characteristics. If we can substitute some religion for the king of the south and substitute no particular location at all for the south, the we can make the king of the south anything we want. Of course, the ruler of Egypt is now a Muslim. So is the king of the North, from Turkey.

The Seleucids were also Hellenistic.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195618
04/03/23 05:00 PM
04/03/23 05:00 PM
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I think we are pretty much in agreement here.

I agree the King of the South is the ruling power over the lands south of Jerusalem.
Possible a disagreement is that I see this as more than just Egypt, though Egypt (Alexandra) was the Ptolemies headquarters, their domain extended over more than just Egypt.
But yes in the first part of Daniel 11 -- the king of the south's domain was SOUTH of Jerusalem (even including Jerusalem for most of those years)

And yes, it's not the country itself -- it's the ruling power over the south., that is the king of the south.

And yes, the Seleucids were another powerful division of the Hellenistic Greek empire.
Their headquarters were in Syria, Antioch being their main capital, and they also controlled what used to be Babylon, their domain reaching to the river Indus. Babylon is mentioned in scripture as being "from the north" . (Ezekiel 26:7)
Media Persia is also mentioned in scripture as being "from the north" (Jeremiah 50:9) Scripture is full of warnings that destruction was coming upon God's people from the north.
Seleucid rulers were described as kings in Babylonia in history.
They Seleucids also had dominion over Jerusalem for a few years when Antiochus III wrested it away from the Ptolemies. This lasted until his son Antiochus Epiphanies lost Judea to the Jewish Maccabees, who in turn lost their brief independence to Rome..
The term "Babylon" we find in Revelation as describing the last papal led religious/political power.

History -- the Ptolemies were overthrown by Rome, who held control of the area for more than seven centuries. (There was no king of the south during that time, as the area was under the control of the north)
Around 639 to 646 AD Muslim armies under the Rashidun Caliphate conquered the whole area which once belonged to the Ptolemies. The Arabs founded the capital of Egypt called Fustat, which was later burned down during the Crusades. Cairo was later built in the year 986 AD to grow to become the largest and richest city in the Arab caliphate. Though there were revolts and battles, Egypt remained under the control of a Muslim Caliphate for centuries. During the 1800's there was a struggle to get some political independence from the Ulama. There has also been European interventions.
However, the influence of high ranking Muslims is still in control in Egypt, and Egypt has been moving back under the control of the Ulama, who, though more moderate than some other Islamic countries are still updating national laws to reflect Islamic teachings. Church and state are not separate. Islam is the state religion.
And if one looks at the map depicting countries where Islamic teachings highly influence their political laws and culture, we find the regions are heavily into the lands of the south. That's where they originated, (in Saudi Arabia, south of Jerusalem) and that's where they spread. Though they have also spread into territories of the north, yet the king of the north, though temporarily has only limited influence in the eastern territories is still alive and ambitious and considers enlarging his influence in those lands that were his

That's all part of Daniel 11 -- The king of the north's last almost successful campaign to get control, after all, Rome once ruled the world, and that is their aim (and the aim of the south as well) . And which ever one gets that control will impose their religion,

Last edited by dedication; 04/04/23 03:13 PM.
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195619
04/03/23 05:55 PM
04/03/23 05:55 PM
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Daylily wrote: "The Seleucids were also Hellenistic."

That's a very important point!
The king of the north and south had some pretty strong similarities!
So often people insist they have to be total opposites.

While both the Seleucids and Ptolemies were Greek Hellenist kingdoms, one difference between the two, was that even though they both embraced the Greek pantheistic religion, the Ptolemies added Egyptian concepts to their religious ideas
The Seleucids, on the other hand added Babylonian concepts.

Today, both the king of the north and south embrace a monotheistic religion.
The king of the south follows the line of Hagar the Egyptian slave and her son Ishmael.
The king of the north follows the early Christian line in Syria (Antioch), but added Babylonian religious ideas.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195627
04/07/23 07:40 AM
04/07/23 07:40 AM
daylily  Offline
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I'm not ignoring you! Just very, very busy getting ready for a Cantata Sabbath. I'm in the choir and that last week before the event is very hectic. I will reply soon. smile

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195628
04/07/23 02:22 PM
04/07/23 02:22 PM
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Enjoy the cantata! I was once choir director and with all the practicing and then presenting the April Cantata, the scenes of Christ's last week, death and resurrection were so vividly implanted in my mind. It's a great ministry that reaches people, some of whom rarely hear this message at any other time.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195664
04/13/23 09:43 AM
04/13/23 09:43 AM
daylily  Offline
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The Cantata turned out well. Our little church was packed . Our average weekly attendance is around 45 and we had over 100 Sabbath, with at least 18 non-SDAs. This was our third cantata, having previously done one last Easter and one at Christmas.

It does cover more that just Egypt but it has to be specifically Egypt so as to be recognizable as an important end time event. If it involves more than Egypt, how much more? On the one hand it does involve more than Egypt because it has allies and on the other hand if the KOS is not specific and identifiable, we won't know when it happens. We need to know when this prophecy has been fulfilled.

I think we might not agree on the KON. I believe that the Papacy is the he and him in this prophecy. The northern Seulucid empire was huge but it ended up shrinking over time to mainly cover what is now Turkey because Turkey controls the area of Antioch, which was the former capital of that Empire. I believe that is the KON.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195665
04/13/23 08:29 PM
04/13/23 08:29 PM
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Glad the Cantata went well. Yes, it does draw in a lot of people that often don't attend church except on these occasions! like

As to the KOS and KON, from your comments I assume you basically follow the direction of Uriah Smith's interpretation as being the correct one.
There are a number of Adventists that see it that way.

Of course not all agree. Even James White, contemporary to Uriah, had problems with it.

So the main point here sort revolves around this phrase:
11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him

The idea here is that there are actually three players involved.
According to Uriah -- the "he or him" is somehow France, the KON is a power from the former Seleucid territory, (Turkey) and the KOS is Egypt.

Now, you do believe the "HE" or him, is the papacy, not France.
So here we do have agreement. As I too believe the "HIM" is the papal power system.

So the whole end really doesn't change that much.
You would just have the KON as the military force in verse 40. With both the KOS (Moslem Egypt) and KON (Muslim Syria/Turkey) rising up against the HIM (Papal Christian coalition)

Now this "HE" which Daniel does not identify by name (which we recognize as the Papal powers) has been the active power all the way through from vs. 16 to right up to vs. 40.

As a pronoun the "he" in all those should refer back to the last identified power, but obviously the Seleucid king of the north, is not the "he" in all these verses.

So the "He, or HIM" would not be just a pronoun but the "identifying label" of another power, not referring back to any identified precedent. For it is only and just the "he" that was in operation from verse 16 to verse 40.
In verse 16 we first read of this "HE" who comes and who "will do as HE wills" and this HE takes the Promised land (vs 16), consumes it and then destroys it like a flood, and even kills the Prince of Covenant, Jesus in (vs 21). So the "he" here is Rome, As we move on through Daniel 11 it becomes pretty convincing that this "HE" is papal Rome.

And in the end it's still the HE that over runs the countries, sets his tabernacles in the holy mountain and comes to his end.

If the HE is NOT a pronoun for the Seleucid King of the North in verses 16 -21, why would anyone think HE is a pronoun for the king of the North in verses 41-45?

So it seems logical to still read the verse like this, now assuming the KON is the resurrection of a Seleucid king in the form of Turkey.

11:39 Thus shall he (papal powers) do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he (papal power) shall acknowledge [and] increase with glory: and he (papal power) shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.

11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south
(Egypt) push at him (irritate the papal coalition): and the king of the north (Seleucids from Turkey) shall come against him (the papal powers) like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; (the papal Christian coalition is attacked by Muslims from the north and the south) and he (the Papal Christian coalition) shall enter into the countries, (subdue them both) and shall overflow and pass over.

11:41 He
(the papal power) shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, [even] Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. (Moab, Ammon, and Edom, located in Jordan, will probably make a peace treaty with the papal powers)

11:42 He (the papal Christian Coalition) shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.

11:43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians [shall be] at his steps.

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