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Who is the beast of Rev. 17 ? #195772
05/05/23 11:28 AM
05/05/23 11:28 AM
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kland  Offline OP
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Re 17:3 So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

But first, who is the woman? Would everyone agree that the woman is not the beast that carries her?

Re: Who is the beast of Rev. 17 ? [Re: kland] #195777
05/06/23 08:16 AM
05/06/23 08:16 AM
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A woman in prophecy, represents God's people. His bride.
A harlot woman represents unfaithfulness, the bride fornicating.

In Revelation 12 the woman is the church fleeing from the dragon, but conquering by the blood of the Lamb.
The woman also represents the children of Israel. Christ was born in Israel.

Jeremiah 6:2 ??I have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate woman.?

2 Corinthians 11:2 ??For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.?

Jeremiah 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Isaiah 1:21 How is the faithful city become an harlot!

Ezekiel 23:4-5 Samaria is Aholah, and Jerusalem Aholibah. And Aholah played the harlot when she was mine...23:11 And when her sister Aholibah saw [this], she was more corrupt in her inordinate love than she, and in her whoredoms more than her sister in [her] whoredoms.


Revelation 17 continues with this same symbolism

I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast,...17:5 And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS... 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city,

Originally Posted by EGW
The sins of Babylon will be laid open. The fearful results of enforcing the observances of the church by civil authority, the inroads of Spiritualism, the stealthy but rapid progress of the papal power,--all will be unmasked. By these solemn warnings the people will be stirred. Thousands upon thousands will listen who have never heard words like these. In amazement they hear the testimony that Babylon is the church, fallen because of her errors and sins, because of her rejection of the truth sent to her from heaven.--The Great Controversy, pp. 606, 607. (1888)

In the seventeenth of Revelation is foretold the destruction of all the churches who corrupt themselves by idolatrous devotion to the service of the papacy, those who have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Thus is represented the papal power, which with all deceivableness of unrighteousness, by outside attraction and gorgeous display, deceives all nations; {7BC 983]

Babylon is said to be ?the mother of harlots.? By her daughters must be symbolized churches that cling to her doctrines and traditions, and follow her example of sacrificing the truth and the approval of God, in order to form an unlawful alliance with the world. The message of Revelation 14 announcing the fall of Babylon, must apply to religious bodies that were once pure and have become corrupt. GC 383


The woman represents religious or spiritual systems and power.

Beasts represent civil, state, "temporal" power -- kings, empires.

Prior to 1798 church and state were one.
The papal church wielded what she called the "two swords".
Originally Posted by Catholic Dictionary
A medieval doctrine on the relation of Church and State, as explained by Pope Boniface VIII (reigned 1294- 1303): "We are taught by the words of the Gospel that in this Church and under her control there are two swords, the spiritual and the temporal . . . both of these, i.e., the spiritual and the temporal swords, are under the control of the Church. The first is wielded by the Church; the second is wielded on behalf of the church. The first is wielded by the hands of the priest, the second by the hands of kings and soldiers, but at the wish and by the permission of the priests. Sword must be subordinate to sword, and it is only fitting that the temporal authority should be subject to the spiritual" (Unam Sanctam, Denzinger 873). this doctrine ... reflected the mentality of the age, when both "priests and kings" were members of the same Catholic Church in whose name Pope Boniface was speaking. (Catholic Dictionary)

Thus in Revelation 13 we see only a "beast" as a complete whole.
But this beast of Rev. 13 was fatally wounded.
The church (spiritual) part survived. The papacy now since 1798 only had one sword, the spiritual.

Revelation 17 is far more complex. Not only the papal religious system, but her daughters along with her, gain control of the state powers, reunite church and state, (ride the beast) and get the state to wield the second sword for them once again.
Fornicating with kings


The ten horns on the beast first support the woman, and then turn savagely against her. Rev. 17:16

Re: Who is the beast of Rev. 17 ? [Re: kland] #195806
05/10/23 12:31 PM
05/10/23 12:31 PM
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kland  Offline OP
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I hear you saying that the beast of Rev 13 comprised both the spiritual and the temporal. And in rev 17, the two are split.
That's an interesting viewpoint.

When I read Revelation 17, I don't see the vision implying the beast carrying the woman as happening only after the deadly wound, but the entire time. Can you consider that and explain how that is?

And how can the temporal power, that was, and is not (at the time of the deadly wound), become the eighth head (king / kingdom)?

Now that I think of it, how do you distinguish between beasts and heads?

Re: Who is the beast of Rev. 17 ? [Re: kland] #195815
05/11/23 05:06 PM
05/11/23 05:06 PM
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Maybe go back to simpler beasts to get the pattern,

We have the Leopard beast of Daniel seven.
He has four heads.
What is this beast and what are the heads?
What's the pattern there?

But then we have the bear in the same chapter, only one head, but it's two humps are given significance.?
What's the pattern there?

Seems the beast represents the whole of a power or kingdom, while the heads, humps, horns are how the power flows either sequentially or contemporarily. As in -- the grecian beast, power moves through four division heads.
As in -- the terrible Roman beast, power moves on through 10 division horns, then centers in the little horn.

THE WOMAN

She is that "great city" Babylon -- as a symbol she is religion.
Rev. 17:18 And the woman which you saw is that great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.
Rev. 17:5 And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARRLOTS



Her "great city" is the counterfeit of the New Jerusalem which is God's people.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Rev. 3:12 the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God



So yes, Babylon has been active all through history, but she was not riding the beast, she was one with the beast.



Babylon is the symbol that in its broadest sense represents the devil's style of apostate religion.
It came from Babel (remember Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon was not the first, Babylon dates back a lot further)

The beast symbolizes the devil's style of civil government during the same time, the seven successive attempts, more or less successful, to control the nations of the world. It is the image seen in Daniel Two.
The beast of Revelation 17 is the civil kingdoms of Babylon, Media Persia, Greece, Rome in both it's forms. And then seems to disappear Rev. 17:8 behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

But beast and woman were torn apart-- separated, the beast being wounded apparently to death.
The people of God have been enjoying a relative rest from governmental persecution for over 200 years. Civil and religious freedom have been dominant. Separation of church and state during the sixth head. For while the beast "is not" one head (the sixth) "IS" Rev. 17:11 when five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

The woman was NOT dead. She just became "a widow".
She's no longer united with state powers.
People lost their fear of her, because apparently the beast part was dead, and she was just what they consider a great spiritual leader among many spiritual leaders.
But behind the pious presentation, things are changing rapidly, the drawing together of ecumenicalism, and the drive to pull down the wall between church and state.

Notice her boastful proclamation in chapter 18. "I sit as queen, I am no widow"

What happened? She got her lovers back! She took control. She has mounted the beast and brought it's revived power under her control.

But notice too, that bond is tentative. Her grip on the beast is rather short lived. The horns only support this for a short time then they turn on Babylon.

The doom of the harlot woman is told in chapter 18. Actually starting already in Rev.17:16. But notice, it's the horns that destroy her. The merchants and others mourn her....
The beast on which she rode ends in Revelation 19:20.
Seems chapters 17-19 deal with more than one power and how each will be dealt with in the last days. It's far more complex than we probably understand. It's a huge confederacy, a universal bond of union that merges and then breaks apart.



Re: Who is the beast of Rev. 17 ? [Re: kland] #195825
05/14/23 09:57 AM
05/14/23 09:57 AM
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When do the ten horns on Revelation 17 beast turn on the woman Babylon?
Rev. 17:16And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.


"When {just before the second coming} the voice of God turns the captivity of his people, there is a terrible awakening of those who have lost all in the great conflict of life. While probation continued, they were blinded by Satan's deceptions, and they justified their course of sin....
The people see that they have been deluded. They accuse one another of having led them to destruction; but all unite in heaping their bitterest condemnation upon the ministers. Unfaithful pastors have prophesied smooth things; they have led their hearers to make void the law of God and to persecute those who would keep it holy. Now, in their despair, these teachers confess before the world their work of deception. The multitudes are filled with fury. ?We are lost!? they cry, ?and you are the cause of our ruin;? and they turn upon the false shepherds. The very ones that once admired them most, will pronounce the most dreadful curses upon them. The very hands that once crowned them with laurels will be raised for their destruction. The swords which were to slay God's people are now employed to destroy their enemies. Everywhere there is strife and bloodshed. {GC88 655.4}

Re: Who is the beast of Rev. 17 ? [Re: dedication] #195837
05/19/23 08:37 PM
05/19/23 08:37 PM
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kland  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by dedication

Seems the beast represents the whole of a power or kingdom, while the heads, humps, horns are how the power flows either sequentially or contemporarily. As in -- the grecian beast, power moves through four division heads.


Re 17:8 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Re 17:10 "There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time.


Could you tell how the beast, if this is not some other beast than in 13, represent the kingdom, and yet be fallen and is not, while at the same time the kings continue?

Re: Who is the beast of Rev. 17 ? [Re: kland] #195840
05/20/23 04:17 AM
05/20/23 04:17 AM
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Differences

The beast of Revelation 13....The beast of Revelation 17
Has body like a leopard
Feet like a bear, mouth like a lion.
.... Is scarlet
Is by itself, no riders ....A woman and her daughters ride this beast
Has ten horns (presumably kings) with crowns....Has ten horns that will receive kingship for one hour,
42 months (1260 years) in power, receives a deadly wound...This one was thought dead but is coming back for a short time
This beast is operating with it's fifth head which receives the deadly wound... This beast has it's sixth revolutionary head, and for a short space it's seventh head.

.

In many ways the beast of Rev. 17 is the same as the beast of Revelation 13, yet also quite different.

It is the civic side of the equation, that gave the religious (papal) side it's ability to force people's religious allegiance.

This beast in Rev. 17, has evolved into something more formidable than it was before

The color suggests it has become more evil. More like the dragon in character.

It's more complex

The church/state relationship is different once we see the beast in Revelation 17, as in Rev. 13 church/state are one, since the state powers were largely of the same religious mind as the religious power.

In Rev. 17, it seems the state powers aren't that religious, the religious power is depicted as a separate identity, not one with the state, but manages to get control of the state and tries to manage this "evolved" more complex beast and regain power to force religion through civic power.

.

A DIFFERENT HEAD

This beast in Rev. 17 is not operating with the same head, as it was in Revelation 13.

The fifth head was the medieval papacy. It ruled during the 1260 years. It received a deadly wound at the end of the 1260 years

The sixth head is athiestic, secular, with the ideas of the French revolution, and it is showing it's colors ideologies in America more and more.

The seventh head turns to the woman and her daughters (the religious side) for answers to its problems, and enforces her mandates, but it doesn't work, as EGW says, when they do this, America plunges into ruin. (See 2SM 373) And the horns actually turn violent against the woman.



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