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"Fire from Heaven or God" #197415
02/12/24 04:58 AM
02/12/24 04:58 AM
teresaq  Offline OP
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Who did it and by what means? As an aside I am by no means a KJV only person. It's just easier to look up and quote from it. Use whatever version makes you happy.

There was a time I accepted without question the literal (superficial) reading. Over time as I learned more, the same as all you others, I came to wonder and think deeper about any particular subject.

As a starter here are some texts. These first seem to be rather clear so I will leave them for the moment.

Leviticus 9:24 And there came a fire out from before the LORD, and consumed upon the altar the burnt offering and the fat: which when all the people saw, they shouted, and fell on their faces.

Numbers 11:1 And when the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard it; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp.

Numbers 16:35 And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.


This fire would seem to clearly come from God. My question is by what means.
1 Kings 18:38 Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.

These two texts now make me wonder if the fire literally came from God, or if they had reached the point that God gave them up to Satan for destruction, which does happen. In other words that Satan claimed them and God agreed. The next captain that came came with respect. The first two maybe came all cocky and pompous with ill intent which is why they had no protection from God?
2 Kings 1:10 And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I be a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.

2 Kings 1:12 And Elijah answered and said unto them, If I be a man of God, let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And the fire of God came down from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: "Fire from Heaven or God" [Re: teresaq] #197418
02/13/24 02:44 AM
02/13/24 02:44 AM
teresaq  Offline OP
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There seem to be different kinds of fire, or is there?

Here are a couple of instances of the fire that does not consume. More are mentioned further on in the bible.

Exodus 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

Deuteronomy 4:11 And ye came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire unto the midst of heaven, with darkness, clouds, and thick darkness.

Deuteronomy 9:15 So I turned and came down from the mount, and the mount burned with fire: and the two tables of the covenant were in my two hands.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: "Fire from Heaven or God" [Re: teresaq] #197419
02/13/24 07:52 PM
02/13/24 07:52 PM
dedication  Online Content
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God IS FIRE --


Heb. 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Deut 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire,
Deut 4:33 Did ever people hear the voice of God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as you heard, and live?


Israel realized the fire was the glory of God, they realized it was a consuming fire!

5:24 Behold, the LORD our God has shown us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that God does talk with man, and we are still alive. 5:25 Now why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the LORD our God any more, then we shall die.
5:26 For who all flesh, that hath heard the voice of the living God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as we [have], and lived?

Duet 4:36 Out of the heavens He let you hear His voice to discipline you; and on earth He let you see His great fire, and you heard His words from the midst of the fire.
Exodus 24:17
And to the eyes of the sons of Israel the appearance of the glory of the Lord was like a consuming fire on the mountain top
?

So Israel begged Moses to talk to God and then tell them what God said, as they were sure they would be consumed if they were that close to the fire of God.
Even Moses could not see God's face and live, God placed him in the cleft of the rock and shielded him, letting him see only as much of his glory as he could endure (See Ex. 33)

And the Israelites were right! No man can endure the full glory of God and live, because no sin can live in the fiery, full glory of God. It is only when God veils His glory and shields people that they can get a glimpse of Him.

1 Tim 6:16 dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen,


God's throne is fiery

Read the description of God upon His throne in Daniel 7
Daniel 7:9=10 his throne like the fiery flame, his wheels like burning fire.
A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him:
Rev. 4:5 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings.


Even the area around His throne has fire.

Talking about Lucifer before his fall into sin:
Ez 28:14 You were the anointed cherub that covers; and I set you thus: you were upon the holy mountain of God; you walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Look at the fire surrounding the redeemed in heaven!

Rev.15 :2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, [and] over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

When God (Christ) reveals Himself in all His glory, that fiery glory will consume all sin and all who were not washed clean of sin by the "blood of the Lamb".


Those who despise the cleansing work of Christ have only
Heb. 10:27 a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

In Exodus two priests entered the temple in defiled condition, they entered into the holy place where God's shekinah glory shown over the curtain from the Most Holy Place. What happened next is what will happen to all who meet God, in their sinful state, when He comes in all His glory.

The conclusion is --
No sin can abide in the full fiery glory of God. It will be consumed.
God will not veil His glory forever.

How can anyone stand and live in the fiery glories of heaven?

Start thinking of Christ's robe of righteousness as a fire proof garment provided for all the redeemed who will live happily in the place of fiery glory, with Christ.

Isaiah 33:14 Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
33:15 He that walks righteously, and speaks uprightly; he that despises the gain of oppressions, that refuses holding of bribes, that stops his ears from hearing of blood, and shuts his eyes from seeing evil;

Re: "Fire from Heaven or God" [Re: teresaq] #197420
02/14/24 03:49 AM
02/14/24 03:49 AM
teresaq  Offline OP
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Thank you so much for the additional texts!

When it comes to God's glory I'm more in keeping with Ellen White. Moses saw the burning bush yet it didn't prostrate him. The burning mount prostrated no one. scared them yes!. Daniel was prostrated by what he saw. God declared His glory to be His character when Moses asked to see God's glory. Moses was not able to see God's face, not because God was fire, but because seeing God would show us all our deformity of character and we couldn't deal with it. We can't deal with it now which is why so many of us run from soul-searching, heart-searching, instead of letting the Holy Spirit search our every crevice and reveal our defects to us AS WE ARE ABLE.
Quote

Exodus 33:18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. 19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.


We aren't changed from fire to fire. We are changed from character to character. Sanctification, a work of a lifetime. IF...
Quote
. 2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.


Quote
PP 328.3
God did not rebuke his request as presumptuous; but the gracious words were spoken, ?I will make all My goodness pass before thee.? The unveiled glory of God, no man in this mortal state can look upon and live; but Moses was assured that he should behold as much of the divine glory as he could endure. Again he was summoned to the mountain summit; then the hand that made the world, that hand that ?removeth the mountains, and they know not? (Job 9:5), took this creature of the dust, this mighty man of faith, and placed him in a cleft of the rock, while the glory of God and all His goodness passed before him.

PP330.2
By this brightness God designed to impress upon Israel the sacred, exalted character of His law, and the glory of the gospel revealed through Christ. While Moses was in the mount, God presented to him, not only the tables of the law, but also the plan of salvation. He saw that the sacrifice of Christ was prefigured by all the types and symbols of the Jewish age; and it was the heavenly light streaming from Calvary, no less than the glory of the law of God, that shed such a radiance upon the face of Moses. That divine illumination symbolized the glory of the dispensation of which Moses was the visible mediator, a representative of the one true Intercessor.
PP330.3
The glory reflected in the countenance of Moses illustrates the blessings to be received by God's commandment-keeping people through the mediation of Christ. It testifies that the closer our communion with God, and the clearer our knowledge of His requirements, the more fully shall we be conformed to the divine image, and the more readily do we become partakers of the divine nature.


It wasn't fire that Jesus had to veil in the incarnation but His holy character. It had to be veiled by our human nature.
Quote
PP330.4
Moses was a type of Christ. As Israel's intercessor veiled his countenance, because the people could not endure to look upon its glory, so Christ, the divine Mediator, veiled His divinity with humanity when He came to earth. Had He come clothed with the brightness of heaven, He could not have found access to men in their sinful state. They could not have endured the glory of His presence. Therefore He humbled Himself, and was made ?in the likeness of sinful flesh? (Romans 8:3), that He might reach the fallen race, and lift them up.


As to the end, according to scripture and The Great Controversy the lost are destroyed by each other and the plagues, which we have created.
Quote

GC 655.4
The people see that they have been deluded. They accuse one another of having led them to destruction; but all unite in heaping their bitterest condemnation upon the ministers. Unfaithful pastors have prophesied smooth things; they have led their hearers to make void the law of God and to persecute those who would keep it holy. Now, in their despair, these teachers confess before the world their work of deception. The multitudes are filled with fury. ?We are lost!? they cry, ?and you are the cause of our ruin;? and they turn upon the false shepherds. The very ones that once admired them most will pronounce the most dreadful curses upon them. The very hands that once crowned them with laurels will be raised for their destruction. The swords which were to slay God's people are now employed to destroy their enemies. Everywhere there is strife and bloodshed.

GC656.1
?A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the Lord hath a controversy with the nations, He will plead with all flesh; He will give them that are wicked to the sword.? Jeremiah 25:31. For six thousand years the great controversy has been in progress; the Son of God and His heavenly messengers have been in conflict with the power of the evil one, to warn, enlighten, and save the children of men. Now all have made their decisions; the wicked have fully united with Satan in his warfare against God. The time has come for God to vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. Now the controversy is not alone with Satan, but with men. ?The Lord hath a controversy with the nations;? ?He will give them that are wicked to the sword.?


Figuratively speaking as clearly seen in the texts and comments just above:
Quote

The world see the very class whom they have mocked and derided, and desired to exterminate, pass unharmed through pestilence, tempest, and earthquake.
He who is to the transgressors of His law a devouring fire,
is to His people a safe pavilion.



Last edited by teresaq; 02/14/24 03:52 AM.

Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: "Fire from Heaven or God" [Re: teresaq] #197422
02/14/24 09:40 AM
02/14/24 09:40 AM
dedication  Online Content
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In so many cases the truth is found not by pitting one text or quote against other texts, it's not one or the other, it is BOTH.
It has to be both for scripture and inspiration do not contradict each other.
We must not ignore some texts to prove another.

The Bible is clear that the absolute Holy Character of God is a consuming fire that WILL consume all evil.
The Bible makes it clear that this is not just an emotional reaction, it is literal.
And yes, when the righteous see Christ in His glorified body, in His full glorious righteous Character, they will be like Him. With glorified new bodies they will reflect the brightness of holiness. A literal intense brightness. Just like Moses face shone with a glory after being with God in the mountain, with a brightness he had to veil because the people could not bear to look upon it. But that was only a little reflection of the brightness of God's glorious fiery, holiness, God's brightness far exceeds in burning intensity more intense than the burning sun, and is hugely awesomely, far brighter than Moses shining face ever reflected.

At Sinai God revealed just as much of his fiery glory that the people could stand and not be consumed. Just because God's full glory was NOT revealed to the people at Sinai and they were not consumed, does not mean they would not have been consumed had God revealed His full glory. They would have been consumed!

Again the bible (as well as the quote you presented) is clear that NO HUMAN has seen God in the brightness of His glory. "The unveiled glory of God, no man in this mortal state can look upon and live;"
God always veils His full glory when dealing with humanity. As mentioned earlier, even for Moses, that glory was not fully revealed, only as much as Moses could stand.

Christ, in His humanity, did not veil his holy character, He came to show us true holiness in character in the flesh. But He completely veiled the intense brightness of that holy character, deity and perfect holiness which shines forth with burning intensity when unveiled.
"Had He come clothed with the brightness of heaven, He could not have found access to men in their sinful state."
When some of that brightness burst forth (John 18:6) his captors fell like dead men at his feet for a few moments -- "As one glorified He stood in the midst of that hardened band, now prostrate and helpless at His feet."
They will again see that glory at His coming and again fall, dead.

Also, just because it's recorded that people turn on each other with awful violence when they realize they are lost, this is not the end. That takes place just before the second coming, when God revealed His law in the heavens. At the second coming an end is made of all the mad strife,
You quoted page 656 from the book Great Controversy , keep reading to page 657
Quote

" At the coming of Christ the wicked are blotted from the face of the whole earth--consumed with the spirit of His mouth and destroyed by the brightness of His glory. Christ takes His people to the City of God, and the earth is emptied of its inhabitants. "Behold, the Lord maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof."


"Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before Him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about Him. He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that He may judge His people." Psalm 50:3,4

Re: "Fire from Heaven or God" [Re: teresaq] #197423
02/14/24 10:27 AM
02/14/24 10:27 AM
teresaq  Offline OP
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OK. smile

Now to get back to the study.

Last edited by teresaq; 02/14/24 10:28 AM.

Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: "Fire from Heaven or God" [Re: teresaq] #197433
02/15/24 01:34 PM
02/15/24 01:34 PM
teresaq  Offline OP
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God can dwell in fire, or the appearance of fire, or a cloud.
Exodus 13:21 And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:
Exodus 14:24 And it came to pass, that in the morning watch the LORD looked unto the host of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of the cloud, and troubled the host of the Egyptians,

Exodus 19:18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.
Numbers 9:15 And on the day that the tabernacle was reared up the cloud covered the tabernacle, namely, the tent of the testimony: and at even there was upon the tabernacle as it were the appearance of fire, until the morning. Numbers 9:16 So it was alway: the cloud covered it by day, and the appearance of fire by night.

God also dwells in thick darkness
Deuteronomy 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

Apparently intended as future dependent on...
Isaiah 4:5 And the LORD will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence.


Are the angels the flaming fire, or another instance of the appearance of fire?
Psalms 50:3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.
Psalms 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

2 Kings 6:17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.

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