I had a long disussion with a Baptist beliver and co-worker yesturday mainly concerning the Sabbath. He held fast that it was bondage...but from the discussion we had questions arose that I tried my best to answer. Below is my response to him (many of the text came from the amazing facts site).

Did I leave anything out?

--Ren

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Here are some questions that arose from the discussion Brent and I had yesterday:

(1)When did Jesus arise? If we count from Friday to Sunday, we don't get 3 days in the earth as prophesied.
(2)We don't know if Saturday is the 7th day because of calendar change.
(3)When is the Sabbath? Is it Holy? Who is it for?


(1) http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com

In the Bible, the season of light (Gen. i. 5), lasting "from dawn [lit. "the rising of the morning"] to the coming forth of the stars" (Neh. iv. 15, 17). The term "day" is used also to denote a period of twenty-four hours (Ex. xxi. 21). In Jewish communal life part of a day is at times reckoned as one day; e.g., the day of the funeral, even when the latter takes place late in the afternoon, is counted as the first of the seven days of mourning; a short time in the morning of the seventh day is counted as the seventh day; circumcision takes place on the eighth day, even though of the first day only a few minutes remained after the birth of the child, these being counted as one day.

This is the Hebrew method of computing time, any small part of a day was counted as the entire twenty-four hour period.

In Genesis 7:4 God said to Noah, "For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth." But in verse 10 we read, "And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth." So...when did the flood come? In seven days? On the seventh day? Or after seven days? Even if God spoke just ten minutes before the end of that first day, it was still counted as one of the seven. And if it started raining at noon on the last day, it was also counted one of the seven. The same principle is revealed in the circumcision of babies. Genesis 17:12 specifies "he that is eight days old." But Luke 1:59 reads "on the eighth day."

"And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus is behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day." Luke 24:46.

Jesus explained of how to locate the third day. "Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected. Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following." Luke 13:32, 33. The first day is counted in its entirety, the whole of the second day, and the third day in its entirety. The third day will always be the day after "to morrow" from any certain event.

He said, "To day (crucifixion) and to morrow (in tomb), and the third day I shall be perfected (resurrection)." Even though He died in the late afternoon, the entire day would be counted as the first day. The second day would span the Sabbath when He slept in the tomb. He was resurrected in the early hours on the third day making it one of the three days.

(2) The calendar has not been changed so as to confuse the days of the week. We can be positive that our seventh day is the same day Jesus observed when He was here. Pope Gregory XIII did make a calendar change in 1582, but it did not interfere with the weekly cycle. Our present Gregorian calendar was named after him when he made that small change in 1582.

What did Pope Gregory do to the calendar? Before 1582 the Julian calendar had been in effect, instituted by Julius Ceasar about 46 B.C. and named after him. But the Julian calendar had calculated the length of the year as 365 1/4 days, and the year is actually eleven minutes less than 365 1/4 days. Those eleven minutes accumulated, and by 1582 the numbering of the calendar was ten days out of harmony with the solar system. Gregory simply dropped those ten days out of the numbering of the calendar. It was Thursday, October 4, 1582, and the next day, Friday, should have been October 5. But Gregory made it October 15 instead, dropping exactly ten days to bring the calendar back into harmony with the heavenly bodies.

Were the days of the week confused? No. Friday still followed Thursday, and Saturday still followed Friday. The same seventh day remained, and the weekly cycle was not disturbed in the least. When we keep the seventh day on Saturday, we are observing the same day Jesus kept, and He did it every week according to Luke 4:16.

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2003-27,GGLD:en&q=did+the+calendar+change

(3)

When is the Sabbath?

Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made. ... And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made." Genesis 2:1-3.

Which day did God bless and sanctify? The seventh day. (Exodus 20:11)

How was it to be kept holy? By resting. "If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thane own pleasure, nor speaking thane own words:

Then salt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it." Isaiah 58:13-14

Could any of the other six be kept holy? No. The seventh day is different from all the other six days, because it has God's blessing. "The Sabbath, my holy day." (Isaiah 58:13).

Why? Because God commanded not to rest those days but to work.

Can the Sabbath memorial be changed? Never. July 10th is our Bahamian Independence Day...not the 9th or the 11th. The same way that no other day is your birthday than the day in which you were born.

Did God ever give man the privilege of choosing his own day of rest? He did not. For 40 years God worked three miracles every week to show Israel which day was holy. (1) No manna fell on the seventh day. (2) They could not keep it overnight without spoilage, but (3) when they kept it over the Sabbath, it remained sweet and fresh.

Was it only made for the Jews? It is called "the Sabbath of the Lord," but never "the Sabbath of the Jews." Exodus 20:10. Luke often made reference to things which were Jewish. He spoke of the "nation of the Jews," "the people of the Jews," "the land of the Jews," and the "synagogue of the Jews." Acts 10:22; 12:11; 10:39; 14:1. Luke never referred to the "Sabbath of the Jews," although he mentioned the Sabbath repeatedly.

Christ clearly taught that "the Sabbath was made for man." Mark 2:27. Adam was the only man in existence at the time God made the Sabbath...Adam was not a Jew.

Did Christ change the day? No. In His 30+ years of ministry, He never indicated a change in His Law. He had sufficient time to do it...His decipiles had sufficient time to do it. But none of them did. So how is it that we now take upon ourselves the authority to make such a change? Is it not the same situation as Cain and Able? God said to worship me this way...bring this sacrifice. But man says no, I have a better way...my way.

I'll close this email with a quote from John 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments."

They are not grevious, but were given by the same loving God who died for our sins.

More to come? Maybe...

Sent in love...

What a blessing to have the opportunity to witness to someone that way. It was very clearly and well covered, the Lord was with you.

Thank you for the encouraging words Jan. I woke up 3am this morning and starting the research my answers.

I prayed and asked the Lord for His guidance... and thank Him for His guidance. All glory and honor is His.

--\Ren

Here is my resonse to his recent reply....


1). The question to consider was not when did JESUS come up, but rather how long was HE down. Matt.12 vs 40 three days and three nights.
Lets work it out.

[Ren] Brent please re-read my first explanation. I used history to show how people in the time of Christ viewed the days, I also used scripture to support this. If you have scripture and historical record to refute this then we will reopen the issue.

2).The question was not if Saturday was the Sabbath. But rather show where GOD assigned Saturday as the Sabbath, or the 7th day of our week as the Sabbath. Ex 20 vs 9 - 10.
The reference to the change in the colander was merely to point out there have been numerous changes to the recording of time as we now know it. This was to a totally different
comment.

[Ren] And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made." Genesis 2:1-3 + Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

There is not discrepancy here.


3). The LORD said 6 days to work and the 7th to rest. Not worship so to say that those who don't worship on "the Sabbath" are wrong is a mans thing not GOD. The bible said that GOD hollowed it so there is not question. But the question that did arise was, because the WORD did not say that GOD hollowed any other day was that to say HE did not?


[Ren] Hmmm... Good question Brent! I like that one! Let me try my best. ..... We cannot speculate as to whether or not God blessed or hallowed any other day. Remember, we are talking about a Trinity that existed before a beginning or an existence. But with regards to His merciful dealing with man we know for a FACT which day He blessed. We know for a FACT which day He hallowed and we know for a FACT which day He lovingly COMMANDED us to do the same.

So lets apply the same logic to our lives. Is it ok if you tell your son to clean the kitchen BEFORE 5pm and he decided that 10am the next morning is ok simply because you did not say not 10am the next morning? Is it ok if the dinner guests you were expecting find a dirty kitchen and an overflowing garbage simply because your son says that he loves you and will clean it at another time? But it will still be clean? If disobedience is not ok for neither the Bowe or Ferguson kids then why is it ok for us? Is He not our heavenly Farther? Are we not called to obey His commands?

The Bible is filled with example after example of those who choose to walk their own way and the terrible result thereof. It started with Satan, then our Adam and Eve and lets not forget Cain. Seems like a pattern to me.

Now lets look at the Christian world. How many books, tapes, prayers, seminars, crusades, etc, etc have come out about ways to get a blessing from God? Every Sunday I was reminded that if I don't pay my tithes I would NOT be blessed! But Christ say's to us that if we keep His Sabbath we will be blessed and that blessing will extent thoughout eternity. That sounds like a VERY good deal to me.

Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it." Isaiah 58:13-14

One final quote....
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

They are not grievous.

On another subject...your question as to whether the person who thinks about work on the Sabbath is also guilty of breaking the Law was an excellent question and one that is still running around in my mind. Without any study on the matter I would say yes they are. Because it all comes back to the desires of the heart. But, this requires further study.


With love,

My third and perhaps final response....

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Under every items that I have replied...I had supported it with 1 or more scriptures.

Do you realize what you are saying / asking? You are implying that from Adam to the days of Ren and Brent we don't know what day of the week is that Sabbath?? This argument does not have a leg to stand on Brent. If nothing else, we have the example of the religious Jew's who have not lost any of their customs or identity and follow the teachings of the Old Testament. But some how we cannot determine which day out of seven is the Sabbath?

Can I ask if you are truly in limbo as to which day is the Sabbath or are you simply posing the question as some theological basis to hopefully prove Sabbath keepers wrong?

My answers are below.

Can you please answer three questions for me...

(1) Did Christ or His disciples ever instruct a change to the Sabbath? Or abolish the Sabbath? Or abolish the Law? If so, please show this with scripture.
(2) Is the above above are no. Then please provide a scriptural foundation for keeping Sunday as a Sabbath.
(3) Who created the Law? Who gave the Law?



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[Brent] Whereas you may have a lot of words, Nothing is biblically concert with respect to the issues raised. Was the day of preparation Thursday or Friday?

[Ren] Preparation day was Friday. Genesis 2: tells us that God blessed the seventh day...we know from this text and others on the seventh day we are to cease our work.

Exo 16:25 And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field.

Exo 16:26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.

Exo 16:27 And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none.

Exo 16:28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

Exo 16:29 See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.
Exo 16:30 So the people rested on the seventh day.
Exo 34:21 Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest: in earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest.

Mar 15:42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,

Luk 23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.


[Brent] Careful. Secondly, Which six? Please give answer according to the Word of GOD.
[Ren] Certainly...as ALL of my answers has been from the Word. And since my previous email shows that no change has ever been made to the weekly cycle we then know that the same Tuesday today was the same Tuesday when Christ walked the earth, etc, etc. And the same Saturday Sabbath today the the Jews still keep is the same Sabbath they and Christians and Christ have always kept.

If the weekly cycle never changed then the six days you should work are the same six days man should always have worked...and these days are the days prior to the Sabbath.

Exo 34:21 Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest

It never changed.


[Brent] Lastly, never apply logic to the word of GOD else
[Ren] I agree and here is my exact quote as below "So lets apply the same logic to our lives."

[Ren] , JESUS would be wrong as HE would have violated the LAW of the Sabbath.
[Ren] But He NEVER violated the Law and the Sabbath

Luk 4:14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.
Luk 4:15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.
Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

[Brent] what does it mean to rest from your labor?
[Ren] This is a long explanation and if you don't mind I'd like to answer it tomorrow. I have to finish some work before I leave. But I will answer.

Here is a little something you might find useful.
This was an answer to someone I wrote. This was a Sunday or Sabbath question.

I must say that the book by Riggle is a tremendous effort, however rather misdirected. I agree that many have erroneous views on the Sabbath, but that does not make the error of Sunday right. The fact that a book of such a size needed to be written to justify Sunday is a clear realization that there is no thus saith the Lord.

First I would like to state that the issue of the Sabbath is not Law but Blessing.

All of the arguments will never change the fact that God blessed the Sabbath day, sanctified it and made it holy. He did that to the seventh day, and he never undid it. He never did that to any other day. So as far as a day goes, the Sabbath day is blessed sanctified and made holy. It is so regardless of who recognizes or remembers it. It is so because God blessed it, sanctified it, and made it holy. It is not that because men regard it so or not regard it so. It is that regardless of the memories men associate with it, or like to associate with it. It is that because God made it so, and he made it so for man. He did not make man for the Sabbath but he made the Sabbath for man.

He made the Sabbath for man (all mankind) not just for the Jews only. The blessing is for all. The argument that the Sabbath was not established at creation is a fabulous and desperate effort. The seven-day week is incontrovertible testimony to its reality. The scripture plainly tells us how the seven-day week came into existence. If not so, then it could not exist, for what would have made the seventh day, and why did that establish the week? If the Sabbath was not made at creation then we should have a six-day week or why were the days not just numbered successively, like 7,8,9,10…120…1009…6037? It is God himself who created the week and its recurring cycle by the blessing of the Sabbath. The Sabbath is what makes the week repeat, while the other days of the week were creation days, which ended on the sixth day, and the activity of those days is not repeated.

All of the arguments for Sunday observance are based on what men (Jews, believers, church) did or did not do. Some of these arguments like to involve something that God or Christ did on the first day, in order to justify their own regard of it. Regardless of what God did on a day, it does not change that day into anything unless he did something to that day. As far as a day goes men sanctifying a day and making it holy has no creative or redemptive power, and can easily be an action of competition and/or rebellion. To base the sanctifying of a day on the memories or associations which man has or makes would only make it man's holiday. While man may make himself a holiday for whatever reason he considers meaningful, that does not make it God's holy day. If man makes a holiday in competition and contempt of God's holy day, then there is a wrong spirit regardless of the justification and reasons given and the religious implications man would like to propose.

Most of the reasons given against the Sabbath tend to be negative or contemptuous; that is 'not to be like the Jews', or not to be 'under the law'. This again is based on the works of men (what and how the Jews related to God). Does their disobedience and rebellion make 'Christian' contempt of what God did, holy? Does the fact that they would not enter into his rest (by making their own rest) justify men today to make their own rest (in the name of entering into his rest)? Is that not making the same error? Some say that they do not want to give God the last day of the week, but they put him first by giving him the first day of the week. Man was created on the sixth day; the seventh day (Sabbath) was the first day for man, which he spent with God. So we see that man began with the Sabbath (the seventh day) and it is repeated every week. Sunday is the second day for man.

To enter into his rest means to cease from our own works. To enter into his rest is certainly much more than the Sabbath day, just as it is much more than not stealing, or not killing, or not coveting, or not having idols, or not using his name in vain. To enter into his rest is to cease from our own works, so that God's work can be accomplished in us. Every child of God is God's dwelling place, where God dwells by his spirit. In him the work of God is accomplished. He is the outworking of God's work, and the outworking of God's rest. What is holy in God's eyes is holy to him and what is common in God's eyes is common to him.

There is certainly much more to salvation than the Sabbath, and to approach salvation from the point of view of keeping the Sabbath is just as incomplete as it is to approach it from the view of not being covetous, or not stealing, or any other 'deeds'. For we are not saved by deeds but by faith; believing God, and allowing his thoughts, his judgements, his works, his righteousness, his spirit to be ours. Thus we are saved unto good works, the works of God in and through us.

It is my prayer that all may know that rest and enter into his rest, and know the mystery of what it means for Christ to be in them.

If you would like to have any further considerations on this subject or other, I would be very happy to discuss with you.
May God bless you and keep you and yours.

Here are some more thoughts.

What is the virtue of "not keeping" the Sabbath today? Is it to prove that one is "not under the Law"? What is the need to prove that? Why the Sabbath?

The issue of the Sabbath seems to be a sore spot in "Christianity" today. The prevalent view of the Sabbath is Law oriented, and the prevalent view of the Law is that its purpose is to find fault and condemn. This in itself is evidence that there is lack of grace.

To be "under the Law" is the position of the unregenerate man. His position of seeking to avoid condemnation and attain to approval of "conscience" (God), by trying to follow the rules. He lives unto himself and tries to please "God" at the same time. This he finds unattainable. And many come to conclusions that God is exacting, or otherwise that Christ has done away with the Law so there are no more things to condemn. So man creates a religion allowing him to live unto himself and still be free from the condemnation of "his own conscience".

So in this way man has assumed an untrue picture of God and his Righteousness. Thus the purpose of God's word, which is unto life, is taken as a savour of death. Thus man thinks that God's Righteousness is satisfied through the exaction of death, and in order to save us Christ had to die in our stead to satisfy God's righteous requirements and pay the penalty. Now this is farthest from the truth, and most unlike God's righteousness.

The above is not the case with all. There are many honest Christians living to do God's will, that have been misled by the tradition of man, and have been taught things contrary to God's word. This is most evident in the Sabbath question. In this matter there are many assumptions/presumptions. It is most sad to see so many satisfied to justify their position by pointing to what other "Christians" did. The traditions passed down through the fathers, etc. This is entirely unacceptable to the regenerate life, which lives by 'every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God'.

Now, there are many concepts on the Sunday consideration, which range from believing that it is "the Sabbath". That it has been changed from Sabbath to Sunday. That Sunday is meaningful because; ... Christ resurrected; disciples broke bread; Pentecost; not under the Law; not keeping any day but convenience of established practice; etc.

Now all should know that Sunday is not the Sabbath. All should know that God never changed it from Sabbath to Sunday. All should know that none of the other reasons are any reasons at all. Certainly man may make himself a holiday for whatsoever reason he wishes and finds meaningful, but that has nothing to do with "living by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God".

From my acquaintance with the Gospel Hall People (and I love them very much) it is evident that most regard/keep/treat Sunday as different from other days and would normally not engage in secular activity on that day. I do not blame them for that, but it does rule out the concept of "not keeping any day" as such. So to most it holds a position that has some meaning, such as "not being under the Law", or similar.

But is that what not being under the law is about?

As David mentioned in an earlier post, Sabbath was "created" by God at creation. God blessed it, set it apart (sanctified it), and made it holy. Now it is obvious that it is special and meaningful to God. It is amazing that so many have been taught to discard and disregard it because there is no record of "man keeping it". Now that it was meaningful to God is evident, but that it should be meaningful to man is likewise evident.

The Saviour said that the "Sabbath was made for man" and "not man for the Sabbath". (Mark 2:28) Here Christ specifically attested that "the Sabbath was made for man", not Jew, not Greek, but man. And he also revealed how it was made for man "not under the Law", that is, man was not made for the Sabbath, but the Sabbath was made for man. So what is the difference between those two concepts?

The one concept is a blessing, sanctified, and holy; while the other is "under the Law", a curse, and burden. It is sad that so many Christians, who ought to be free from the curse of the Law and be rejoicing in God's blessings, still have the concept of the Sabbath under the Law, which the Saviour said was not what it was made for. And as such they are correct; that type of Sabbath they should not keep. But the Sabbath was made for man.

Should the Sabbath be meaningful to a born-again Christian? From the above revelation of Christ, it is evident that it can only be meaningful to a born-again Christian. One that is not born-again is under the law and thus has an unsanctified concept of the Sabbath. The concept of "being made for the Sabbath". Christ is telling us what the true concept of the Sabbath is.

The position that one who has ceased from his own works has the Sabbath-rest everyday is true, but that thus the Sabbath is no longer valid or was only a shadow is ill conceived. That type of view is still only looking through the eyes of one under the law. The view must be changed to see as God sees. The perspective given us on the value of the Sabbath is not in perspective of Sin but in Righteousness. In Hebrews 4, the sinners are called to depart from sin/their own righteousness, and enter into God's rest by faith. Many have taken that concept to mean only ceasing from "sin", but Hebrews goes much farther than that. It talks about us having the mind of God by faith. It talks about a rest for "the children of God" not just about a rest for sinners from sin.

For the Scriptures say, There remaineth therefore a rest for the "children of God" (these have already ceased from sin). It says that he who has entered into God's rest has ceased from his works "as God did from his". Now God's rest from works was not one from sin, yet it was special and meaningful to him. Is it meaningful to us as it is to Him? The fact is that the Sabbath rest is God's blessing to his children. The children of this world can never enjoy it.

The question remains, does the "Christian" of today, the child of God value and hold meaning as God does? Or is his perspective still tainted by sin and works of law? Has the child of God acquired by faith the mind of Christ? Does he rest as God does? Then he should find meaning in the Sabbath as God does.

It is my prayer that we all may come to the knowledge and riches, to the glory and fullness of the stature of Christ.

I do believe the Lord places us right where He wants His Word to go. The Lord has really blessed you. You may not see results immediately, but the Lord knows what is in everyone's heart. It took my husband 10 years to accept the truths his brother presented to him, even though in his heart he really believed. His brother and wife never gave up, they prayed for us, and I am so thankful the Lord used them.

We will pray for Brent.

Ren, another good resource dealing with the "three days and three nights" question, Hebrew inclusive time reckoning, the timing of the events of the crucifixion week, etc. is Joe Crews' "3 Days and 3 Nights" booklet, online at the Amazing Facts site and at

http://www.nisbett.com/library/3days.html

As for the notion of Fourth Commandment-style seventh-day sabbathkeeping being "bondage"; ask your friend if it constitutes "bondage" when we obey the other nine Commandments!

The psalmist wrote,

"I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts." Psalm 119:45.

He was talking about the Ten Commandments there; the whole of Psalm 119 is about them.