So Darius what is it that you feel we are forcing the issue on? Do you feel the SDA doctrine is wrong? A straight concrete, non evasive answer would be much appreciated.

Redfog

Redfog, can we first deal with the text before us? Is it not obvious that the angel recognized a group as being His People BEFORE anything happened to them? Don't you see a difference between "He shall save people," and "He shall save His people?"

Darius I have no idea what you are getting at. I've asked you questions you refuse to answer, I've answered your questions and you act like you've not read them. Again as in other threads vagueness seems to be your MO. You are hard to pin down on anything. Why not just tell us what you believe in concrete black and white terms so we can discuss whatever it is you are trying to get across. Communication should not be this hard or complicated. I've been trying to discus the text with you but you refuse to acknowledge that fact.

Redfog

Darius, once again you are advocating, contrary to forum rules, your non-SDA views and labeling the SDA view as blasphemy. Please stop violating forum rules, please do the honorable thing and stop attacking SDA beliefs on this forum. Thank you.

Salvation is conditional upon faith and obedience - faith that works by love and purifies the soul.

FW 94
He who is trying to reach heaven by his own works in keeping the law is attempting an impossibility. Man cannot be saved without obedience, but his works should not be of himself; Christ should work in him to will and to do of His good pleasure. If a man could save himself by his own works, he might have something in himself in which to rejoice. The effort that man makes in his own strength to obtain salvation is represented by the offering of Cain. All that man can do without Christ is polluted with selfishness and sin; but that which is wrought through faith is acceptable to God. When we seek to gain heaven through the merits of Christ, the soul makes progress. "Looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith," we may go on from strength to strength, from victory to victory; for through Christ the grace of God has worked out our complete salvation. {FW 94.1}

AG 138
The most striking feature of this covenant of peace is the exceeding richness of the pardoning mercy expressed to the sinner if he repents and turns from his sin. The Holy Spirit describes the gospel as salvation through the tender mercies of our God. "I will be merciful to their unrighteousness," the Lord declares of those who repent, "and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more" (Heb. 8:12). Does God turn from justice in showing mercy to the sinner? No; God cannot dishonor His law by suffering it to be transgressed with impunity. Under the new covenant, perfect obedience is the condition of life. If the sinner repents and confesses his sins, he will find pardon. By Christ's sacrifice in his behalf, forgiveness is secured for him. Christ has satisfied the demands of the law for every repentant, believing sinner. . . . {AG 138.4}

1SM 366, 367
Without the grace of Christ, the sinner is in a hopeless condition; nothing can be done for him; but through divine grace, supernatural power is imparted to the man, and works in mind and heart and character. It is through the impartation of the grace of Christ that sin is discerned in its hateful nature, and finally driven from the soul temple. It is through grace that we are brought into fellowship with Christ, to be associated with Him in the work of salvation. Faith is the condition upon which God has seen fit to promise pardon to sinners; not that there is any virtue in faith whereby salvation is merited, but because faith can lay hold of the merits of Christ, the remedy provided for sin. Faith can present Christ's perfect obedience instead of the sinner's transgression and defection. When the sinner believes that Christ is his personal Saviour, then, according to His unfailing promises, God pardons his sin, and justifies him freely. The repentant soul realizes that his justification comes because Christ, as his substitute and surety, has died for him, is his atonement and righteousness. {1SM 366.3}

Redfog, if your beliefs determine how you will interpret a text you are being driven by your beliefs. Unlike you, I prefer to go where the text leads instead of being more willing to twist it to fit my beliefs.

MM, we are discussing what the angel meant by what is recorded in Matt. 1:21. Please stay on topic.

Actually, Darius, Richard (redfog) HAS answered the question AND MM HAS stayed on topic. What I understood from your original post, the passage quoted from Matthew, is that Jesus came to save us from our sins. Yes, ALL people were CREATED by Him. However, there are those who have not accepted/will not accept the gift He gave to us. His people are in all churches, but that doesn't mean that ALL people are His. By that I mean if someone did not accept Him as his/her Lord and Savior, then the person died, he/she would NOT be resurrected as one of God's people. See Matt. 22:14.

Now, you suggest that the previous posters are not staying on topic, when, in fact, they ARE. It is you who is ignoring what they have to say. Redfog gave a specific answer to the question, but you act as though he did not. MM gave quotes to BACK UP the part about SALVATION in the original text. Again, you say we are off topic. You gave a blanket statement in the original post. When questioned about it, you evade the question. Please, give a straight, decisive answer? And don't say "there is plenty of time for that" It's a cop out, pure and simple. We gave our thoughts on the text. We told what we believe. You have refused....or, should I say, you are evasive?

Daryl, if you feel I am attacking Darius, do what you will with this post. Edit it as you see fit to keep it from sounding like i am attacking him, but, please, keep the basic information in it?

SS, then I must conclude that you do not accept Matt. 1:21 for what it says. You do not believe it was a guarantee and you do not believe that identification of "his people" did not depend on completion of His mission. I want to know how you feel about what the Bible teaches. It is obvious you know what modern men believe. I say, "let God be true and every man a liar."

Darius I do not have to twist any text to fit my beliefs since my beliefs are backed by the Bible, the whole Bible, not just a text here and there. At least I have the courage to state my beliefs in terms that can be understood. Whereas you are both vague and evasive about what you believe. This is in no way an attack on you it's just truth. Why do you even post on here if you are not willing to have sensible dialog? (Of course maybe the more logical question is why am I wasting my time trying to communicate with someone unwilling to do the same?) For some odd reason you expect others to answer your questions but won't extend the same courtesy to them. Well unless you have something concrete to offer this thread I'm done. I've answered your questions more than once but you ignore the answers so what's the use of trying any more?

Redfog

Thanks, Stephanie, for putting in your tuppence, since they are staying at more than armslength and aren't seeing eye to eye...You didn't appear out of order, really, but didn't they all deserve it?

MM and Regfrog haven't touched on Darius' point about Jesus' guarantee to save his people: they've only insisted that he doesn't have his own people until they agree to be his saved people - saying nothing about the "guarantee".

But then they're known for upholding the salvation conditions of conditional faith at all times that the unconditional grace of God is mentioned (that I've seen). They totally avoid a proper discussion of God's uncondtional grace in action, instead insisting that conditional faith renders any notion of unconditional grace irrelevant(?) - I don't know what they do with God's unconditional grace, in discussion: do they evade it? I mean it's in the text when it's brought up, like here, but just insisting that salvation is conditional because of conditional faith doesn't address unconditional grace....That's not terribly conversational, is it?

Darius wrote

quote:

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because he will save

This is where we first go off the track. This is a guarantee. He will save! Yet, all of theologians have changed the word of the angel from a guarantee to a possibility. Now, Jesus is promised as a provision of salvation rather than as a guarantee. It is not surprise that we have the Babylonic confusion of atonement models developed by men who are convinced they have more information than the angel. It is even more troubling that today we continue to give these views credence.

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Another word for unconditional grace is God's sovereignty: we all understand "sovereignty", don't we? It means the Godhead has absolute freedom to do what they like within their sphere (pretty big sphere ) and nobody can gainsay them or prevent them from doing it. Did God in Christ save the world, his created people, by sovereign action of his incarnation (Matt 1:21), life, death and resurrection (indirectly Matt 1:21; see below), so that by grace's reality the world is in a different status because of Christ? - this is not the world's status by faith (it has none, of course), but its status of grace, in Christ (which we have in him by being humans). Is Christ anything to the world before anybody believes in him?

This isn't just trying to confuse you, on my part: there are texts where Jesus is called "Saviour of the world" (Jn 4:42), "Saviour of all men" (1 Tim 4:10), even that his righteousness brought justification and life for all men (paraphrasing Rom 5:18). For anyone to believe in Jesus as a personal Saviour, what must Jesus have done - completely finished, and be for us all in order to be believed in?