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Re: It has been done!
#20503
02/28/06 01:09 PM
02/28/06 01:09 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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Tom, it is theological mumbo-jumbo that Eve believed a lie about God's character. Those who say so have not read the story. From the beginning Eve defended God's character. Discard the theological commentary and read Gen. 3 afresh. You will also note that the serpent told no lies.
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Re: It has been done!
#20504
02/28/06 01:25 PM
02/28/06 01:25 PM
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Quote: posted by Darius| You will also note that the serpent told no lies. |
Darius, please explain how the serpent told no lies AND YET deceived Eve.
Jeff
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Re: It has been done!
#20505
02/28/06 01:54 PM
02/28/06 01:54 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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Misdirection is more effective than lies. Moses was not joking when he said that the serpent was more subtle. He actually got Eve to deceive herself. Self-deception is dangerous. Today we continue to witness it in the church.
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Re: It has been done!
#20506
02/28/06 03:53 PM
02/28/06 03:53 PM
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So......when the serpent said, and I quote, "YOU WILL NOT DIE" he was misdirecting, not lying? How so?
And I am not basing this on "theological commentary"..........I read the words of Genesis 3 as they are written. Nothing else. The serpent started out with a half truth, to try to catch Eve, she replied with exactly what God told them. The serpent said "you will not die"......that's a lile. Sure, she was not struck down, dead right at that second...However, she DID start to die.
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Re: It has been done!
#20507
02/28/06 06:20 PM
02/28/06 06:20 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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quote:
Originally posted by Darius:
This is where the church has ignored God. God does not view the race as individuals. As in Adam so in Christ. It is amazing how much effort we make to ignore this clear statement.
It is a clear statement you are making. However, is it true? It would be helpful if you would elaborate your point a bit and maybe even back your statement with scripture. There are times when God adresses individuals, when He adresses nations and some when He speaks to the enitre humanity. On what grounds do you disregard the first (and perhaps the secound) in favour for the third?
In an earlier post you wrote that participating in rebellion makes a person ineligible for salvation. If salvation means to have access to Gods throne, you would have been right if it had not been for grace. Unmerited forgiveness. Or perhaps pardon. Even humans forgive betrayal sometimes. Do you expect less from God? quote:
Romans 3 21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
quote:
Hebrews 4 14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
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Re: It has been done!
#20508
02/28/06 06:24 PM
02/28/06 06:24 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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quote:
Originally posted by Darius:
Misdirection is more effective than lies. Moses was not joking when he said that the serpent was more subtle. He actually got Eve to deceive herself. Self-deception is dangerous. Today we continue to witness it in the church.
Though self deception is indeed both dangerous and popular, the serpent/devil has a reputation as a liar.. quote:
John 8:44
You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
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Re: It has been done!
#20509
02/28/06 06:30 PM
02/28/06 06:30 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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Stephanie, your response implies that the serpent was working in collaboration with the Creator and knew that "thou shalt surely die," meant "You shall start to die." Surely you can't believe that, but it is the kind of argument that we will find in sermons that are aimed at presenting a doctrine instead of interpreting the text.
You also misstated the facts when you said that Eve replied with exactly what God had said. God had saidn nothing about not touching it. This addition by Eve further supports what the Bible clearly teaches; that God only spoke to Adam, then Eve got her account from Adam. Somehow Christians continue to disregard this part of the account.
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Re: It has been done!
#20510
02/28/06 06:33 PM
02/28/06 06:33 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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Vaster, salvation is never an act of grace. John 3:16 is correct that it is an act of love. You should be concerned by the implication in your response that God would withhold grace from the being who used to be his covering cherub.
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Re: It has been done!
#20511
02/28/06 06:58 PM
02/28/06 06:58 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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quote:
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
I find it less of a problem when I remember that to accept grace/amnesty, the rebell has to give up his arms and accept having done wrong. Thats why not every offer of grace is accepted. If someone is convinced they have done nothing wrong, that someone would be offended if given an offer of grace.
Isnt loving someone who has done nothing to deserve it and everything not to deserve it a definition of grace?
/Thomas
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Re: It has been done!
#20512
02/28/06 07:26 PM
02/28/06 07:26 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Darius:
Stephanie, your response implies that the serpent was working in collaboration with the Creator and knew that "thou shalt surely die," meant "You shall start to die." Surely you can't believe that, but it is the kind of argument that we will find in sermons that are aimed at presenting a doctrine instead of interpreting the text.
You also misstated the facts when you said that Eve replied with exactly what God had said. God had saidn nothing about not touching it. This addition by Eve further supports what the Bible clearly teaches; that God only spoke to Adam, then Eve got her account from Adam. Somehow Christians continue to disregard this part of the account.
How does my response imply that God and Satan (the serpent) were working together????????? It in NO way implies that! Now, when God told ADAM (since you corrected me) not to eat the fruit, do you believe the serpent was not there? Do you not think it POSSIBLE that he HEARD what God said?? True, Eve elaborated and said God told them neither to eat the fruit, nor to touch it.
Anyway, I think I am done with this thread. I am tired of the discussions going in circles.
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