This may be getting a little off topic, however, since it is related to this topic, let us continue.

Here is the first reference:

quote:

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Exodus 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

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I think the Lord is telling us to covet that which doesn't belong to us such as our neighbour's house, as well as our neighbour's wife, and anything else belonging to our neighbour.

Now for the other text:

quote:

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Corinthians I 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet show I unto you a more excellent way.

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Covet what? Not somebody else's gifts but the best gifts God offers both you and I.

A big difference between the two texts.

In this last text, we are being asked to covet the best of all the gifts that God has to offer.

Nothing wrong with that!

God chooses the delusions for people who refuse to love the truths of Scripture & SOP.

Isaiah 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

Psalms 76:10 Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain.

While the Scripture in 1 Kings 22:22 doesn't come right out and say so, it's evident that the 'spirit' who said "I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets" was Satan himself. Sister White attributes a similar saying to Satan in TM 409. And Satan had been known to appear before God previously; as in Job 1:6-12.

As Ed pointed out earlier, Jesus said of Satan that "he is a liar, and the father of it." John 8:44. If God could lie, then God would be the father of lies, since He existed before Satan/Lucifer did. But God "cannot lie", as Ed also pointed out; Titus 1:2.

Many times Bible language, especially in the Old Testament, ascribes an action to God, when in reality He has allowed Satan to do an evil thing, or the influence of the Holy Spirit on people's hearts and minds causes them to make a decision. Sometimes those people make the wrong decision, but still it's their free will in action.

Thus we read in Exodus 7:3 -- "I will harden Pharaoh's heart."

Compared to 2 Peter 3:9 -- "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Isaiah 45:7 -- "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

Compared to James 1:13,17 -- "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth He any man....Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."

[ May 18, 2002: Message edited by: John ]

When God does something we don't like or don't understand, I believe it is disingenuous of us to blame His actions on the devil. There is no evidence whatever in I Kings 22 or II Chron 18 that anyone was present in the Lord's council that day except His own angels. I Kings 22:23 and II Chron 18:22 both specifically state: "So now the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouths of [all] these prophets of yours" (NIV).

One might argue about who is meant by "the Lord," but again, there is no evidence that anyone but the God of heaven is intended in these references.

As for coveting, I admit I used inverse examples. Your analysis agrees with my thinking. The commandment only tells us not to covet that which belongs to someone else. Also, in the second commandment, the emphasis is on making objects for WORSHIP, not in making ordinary statues, pictures, or other representations. My point is that we should not try to apply the commandments (specifically including the ninth) to situations they were not intended to cover.

Bob Lee

Let us look at the whole text:

quote:

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1 Kings 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
24 But Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah went near, and smote Micaiah on the cheek, and said, Which way went the spirit of the LORD from me to speak unto thee?
25 And Micaiah said, Behold, thou shalt see in that day, when thou shalt go into an inner chamber to hide thyself.
26 And the king of Israel said, Take Micaiah, and carry him back unto Amon the governor of the city, and to Joash the king's son;
27 And say, Thus saith the king, Put this fellow in the prison, and feed him with bread of affliction and with water of affliction, until I come in peace.
28 And Micaiah said, If thou return at all in peace, the LORD hath not spoken by me. And he said, Hearken, O people, every one of you.

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This is an interesting text about what went on in heaven spoken by Micaiah, a true prophet of God, to King Ahab of Israel. To better understand these particular verses, I strongly suggest you read from the beginning of the chapter to the end of verse 18 focusing particularly verses 6,11, 12 as spoken by the false prophets, and verses 13-18 regarding the response by the true prophet of God. Take note that what had been spoken by the about 400 false prophets had taken place as stated by the true prophet to the king of Israel in verses 19-22 as a warning to the king of Israel that instead of being victorious, he would be killed and Israel would be defeated.

If God lied to the king through about 400 prophets, then why did God then tell the king differently through one prophet?

We need to be careful to attribute something to God that goes contrary to His character in which it says in Titus 1:2 that God "cannot lie."

quote:

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Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

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If God cannot lie, then who is this "a spirit" in verse 21 that is also referred to as "a lying spirit" of verse 22?

SOP search - “a lying spirit” = 3 hits.

1. Unsanctified ministers are arraying themselves against God. They are praising Christ and the god of this world in the same breath. While professedly they receive Christ, they embrace Barabbas, and by their actions say, "Not this Man, but Barabbas." Let all who read these lines, take heed. Satan has made his boast of what he can do. He thinks to dissolve the unity which Christ prayed might exist in His church. He says, "I will go forth and be a lying spirit to deceive those that I can, to criticize, and condemn, and falsify." Let the son of deceit and false witness be entertained by a church that has had great light, great evidence, and that church will discard the message the Lord has sent, and receive the most unreasonable assertions and false suppositions and false theories. Satan laughs at their folly, for he knows what truth is. {TM 409.2}

Many will stand in our pulpits with the torch of false prophecy in their hands, kindled from the hellish torch of Satan. If doubts and unbelief are cherished, the faithful ministers will be removed from the people who think they know so much. "If thou hadst known," said Christ, "even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes." {TM 409.3}

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(repeat - but with more context)
2. All should bear in mind that Satan's special efforts are directed against the ministry. He knows that it is but a human instrumentality, possessing no grace or holiness of its own. He knows that it is an agent that God has ordained to be a powerful means for the salvation of souls, and is efficacious only as God, the eternal Spirit, makes it so. He knows that the treasure of the gospel is in earthen vessels, that it is God's power alone that can make them vessels of honor. They may cultivate the vineyard; a Paul may plant and an Apollos water; but God alone can give the increase. {SpTA11 2.2}

God has never left his church without a witness. In all the scenes of trial and proving, of opposition and persecution amidst moral darkness, through which the church has passed, God has had men of opportunity who have been prepared to take up his work at different stages, and carry it forward and upward. Through patriarchs and prophets he revealed his truth to his people. Christ was the teacher of his ancient people as verily as he was when he came to the world clothed in the garments of humanity. Hiding his glory in human form, he often appeared to his people, and talked with them "face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend." He, their invisible Leader, was enshrouded in the pillar of fire and of cloud, and spoke to his people through Moses. The voice of God was heard by the prophets whom he had appointed to a special work and to bear a special message. He sent them to repeat the same words over and over again. He had a message prepared for them that was not after the ways and will of men, and this he put in their mouths and had them proclaim. He assured them the Holy Spirit would give them language and utterance. He who knew the heart would give them words with which to reach the people. {SpTA11 2.3}

The message might not please those to whom it was sent. They might not wish for anything new, but desire to go right on as they had been doing; but the Lord stirred them up with reproofs; he rebuked their course of action. He infused new life in those who were sleeping at their post of duty, who were not faithful sentinels. He showed them their responsibility, and that they would be held accountable for the safety of the people. They were watchmen who were not to sleep day nor night. They were to discern the enemy, and give the alarm to the people, that every one might be at his post, that the watching foe might not obtain the least advantage. {SpTA11 3.1}

And today the Lord declares to his watchmen that if they are unfaithful, and do not warn the people who are in peril, they will be taken away in their sins. "His blood," he says, "will I require at thine hand." But if his messengers lift up their voices in reproof and warning, to turn men from their wicked ways, and those souls who will not hear, then the watchman is clear; the offender against God will be taken in his sins; his blood will be upon his own soul. {SpTA11 3.2}

These solemn matters are set before me in clear lines. God has appointed apostles, pastors, evangelists, and teachers, for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith. God declares to his people, "Ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building." There must be a continual advancement. Step by step his followers must make straight paths for their feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way. Those who would labor for God must work intelligently to replenish the deficiencies in themselves and glorify the Lord God of Israel by standing in the light, working in the light of the Sun of Righteousness. Thus they will carry the church forward and upward and heavenward, making its separation from the world more and more distinct. As they assimilate their character to the Divine Pattern, men will not guard their own personal dignity. With jealous, sleepless, loving, devoted interest, they will guard the sacred interest of the church from the evil which threatens to dim and cloud the glory that God intends shall shine forth through her. They will see that Satan's devices have no place or countenance in her by encouraging fault-finding, gossiping, evil-speaking, and accusing of the brethren; for those things would weaken and overthrow her. {SpTA11 4.1}

There never will be a time in the history of the church when God's worker can fold his hands and be at ease, saying, "All is peace and safety." Then it is that sudden destruction cometh. Everything may move forward amid apparent prosperity; but Satan is wide awake, and is studying and counseling with his evil angels another mode of attack where he can be successful. The contest will wax more and more fierce on the part of Satan; for he is moved by a power from beneath. As the work of God's people moves forward with sanctified, resistless energy, planting the standard of Christ's righteousness in the church, moved by a power from the throne of God, the great controversy will wax stronger and stronger, and will become more and more determined. Mind will be arrayed against mind, plans against plans, principles of heavenly origin against principles of Satan. Truth in its varied phases will be in conflict with error in its ever-varying, increasing forms, and which, if possible, will deceive the very elect. {SpTA11 5.1}

Our work must be an earnest one. We are not to fight as those that beat the air. The ministry, the pulpit, and the press demand men like Caleb, who will do and dare, men whose eyes are single to detect the truth from error, whose ears are consecrated to catch the words from the faithful Watcher. And the Spirit from the throne of God will make itself felt upon a degenerate Christianity, a corrupt world, ready to be consumed by the long-deferred judgments of an offended God. {SpTA11 5.2}

There is danger now of men losing sight of the important truths applicable for this period of time, and seeking for those things that are new and strange and entrancing. Many, if reproved by the Spirit of God through his appointed agencies, refuse to receive correction, and a root of bitterness is planted in their hearts against the Lord's servants who carry heavy, disagreeable burdens. There are men who teach the truth, but who are not perfecting their ways before God, who are trying to conceal their defections, and encourage an estrangement from God. They have not the moral courage to do the things that it is for their special benefit to do. They see no necessity for reform, and so they reject the words of the Lord, and hate him who reproveth at the gate. {SpTA11 5.3}

This very refusal to heed the admonitions which the Lord sends, gives Satan every advantage to make of them the bitterest enemies of those who have told them the truth. They become falsifiers of those who have borne to them the message from the Lord. {SpTA11 6.1}
The man who rejects the word of the Lord, who endeavors to establish his own way and will, tears to pieces the messenger and message which God sends in order to discover to him his sin. His own inclinations have influenced his conduct, and he has built himself up in a wrong way. The divine rule is, "Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God." But he would not do this. As a man thinketh, so is he. From within, out of the heart, proceed evil thoughts inspired by Satan. He begins to quibble at technicalities and manners. The spirit of Satan links him up with the enemy to bear a word of criticism on less important themes. The truth becomes of less and still less value to him. He becomes an accuser of his brethren, etc., and changes leaders. The outside world has a greater weight with him than has the flood of light that God has poured in upon the world in messages that he has given, and which he once rejoiced in. {SpTA11 6.2}

O, how many things have developed since he become so full of hatred against God, because his dangers and wrongs were brought before him! He has allowed wicked thoughts to strengthen and prevail because, day by day, he has not eaten of the flesh and drunk of the blood of the Son of God, because he has not become a partaker of the divine nature. The things which come from within defile the man. How corrupt then must be the source from which these evils have taken their rise! {SpTA11 7.1}

Unsanctified ministers are arraying themselves against God. They are praising Christ and the god of this world in the same breath. While professedly they receive Christ, they embrace Barabbas, and by their actions say, "Not this man, but Barabbas." Let all who read these lines, take heed. Satan has made his boast of what he can do. He thinks to dissolve the unity which Christ prayed might exist in his church. He says, "I will go forth and be a lying spirit to deceive those that I can, to criticize, and condemn, and falsify." Let the son of deceit and false witness be entertained by a church that has had great light, great evidence, and that church will discard the message the Lord has sent, and receive the most unreasonable assertions and false suppositions and false theories. Satan laughs at their folly; for he knows what truth is. {SpTA11 7.2}

Many will stand in our pulpits with the torch of false prophecy in their hands, kindled from the hellish torch of Satan. If doubts and unbelief are cherished, the faithful ministers will be removed from the people who think they know so much. "If thou hadst known," said Christ, "even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes." {SpTA11 8.1}

Nevertheless, the foundation of God standeth sure. The Lord knoweth them that are his. The sanctified minister must have no guile in his mouth. He must be open as the day, free from every taint of evil. A sanctified ministry and press will be a power in flashing the light of truth on this untoward generation. Light, brethren, more light we need. Blow the trumpet in Zion; sound an alarm in the holy mountain. Gather the host of the Lord, with sanctified hearts, to hear what the Lord will say unto his people; for he has increased light for all who will hear. Let them be armed and equipped, and come up to the battle,--to the help of the Lord against the mighty. God himself will work for Israel. Every lying tongue will be silenced. Angels' hands will overthrow the deceptive schemes that are being formed. The bulwarks of Satan will never triumph. Victory will attend the third angel's message. As the Captain of the Lord's host tore down the walls of Jericho, so will the Lord's commandment-keeping people triumph, and all opposing elements be defeated. Let no soul complain of the servants of God who have come to them with a heaven-sent message. Do not any longer pick flaws in them, saying, "They are too positive; they talk too strongly." They may talk strongly; but is it not needed? God will make the ears of the hearers tingle if they will not heed his voice or his message. He will denounce those who resist the word of God. {SpTA11 8.2}

Satan has laid every measure possible that nothing shall come among us as a people to reprove and rebuke us, and exhort us to put away our errors. But there is a people who will bear the ark of God. Some will go out from among us who will bear the ark no longer. But these can not make walls to obstruct the truth; for it will go onward and upward to the end. In the past God has raised up men, and he still has men of opportunity waiting, prepared to do his bidding,-- men who will go through restrictions which are only as walls daubed with untempered mortar. When God puts his Spirit upon men, they will work. They will proclaim the word of the Lord; they will lift up their voice like a trumpet. The truth will not be diminished or lose its power in their hands. They will show the people their transgressions, and the house of Jacob their sins. {SpTA11 9.1}

The conflict is to wax fiercer and fiercer. Satan will take the field and personate Christ. He will misrepresent, misapply, and pervert everything he possibly can, to deceive, if possible, the very elect. Even in our day there has been and will continue to be entire families who have once rejoiced in the truth, but who will lose faith because of calumnies and falsehoods brought to them in regard to those whom they have loved and with whom they have had sweet counsel. They opened their hearts to the sowing of tares; the tares sprang up among the wheat; they strengthened; the crop of wheat became less and less; and the precious truth lost its power to them. For time a false zeal accompanied their new theories, which hardened their hearts against the advocates of truth as did the Jews against Christ. {SpTA11 9.2}

Under the zeal of Satan, some have for a time the appearance of men in a flourishing condition; but it is only for a season. Satan carried them so far that they do despite to the Spirit of God. They spread themselves like a green bay tree. The Lord suffers them for a time. He allows them to manifest their envy and hatred against the people of God, as he has allowed Satan to develop his character, that he might stand before the heavenly universe, before the world unfallen, and the fallen world, in his true attributes, as a deceiver, an accuser of the brethren, a murderer at heart. {SpTA11 10.1}

Many who now claim to believe the truth, but who have no anchor, will be bound up with Satan's party. Those who have not worked on God's side of the question will be left to prove a stumbling-block to those who have gained a living experience for themselves. Let every minister, in the place of standing to criticize and question, to doubt and oppose, if there is the semblance of a chance to do so, be now employed in erecting barriers against the wily foes. Rather than fight against those whom the Lord has sent to save these, let his people pray fervently and continually for the power of God's grace, and that the Captain of the Lord's Host will take the field. Rather than sit in judgment upon men whom God has accepted to do him service, let the burden of their prayer be, night and day, that the Lord may send forth more laborers into his vineyard. Ministers, do not dishonor your God and grieve his Holy Spirit, by casting reflections on the ways and manners of the men he would choose. God knows the character. He sees the temperament of the men he has chosen. He knows that none but earnest, firm, determined, strong-feeling men will view this work in its vital importance, and will put such firmness and decision into their testimonies that they will make a break against the barriers of Satan. {SpTA11 10.2}

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3. repeat - {SpTA11 7.2}

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SOP search - “ lying spirit” = 5 hits

1. (Col. 2:8; 1 Tim. 6:20.) Human Reason vs. God's Wisdom.--Many exalt human reason, idolize human wisdom, and set the opinions of men above the revealed wisdom of God. This affords opportunity for the working of Satan, and the spirit of Antichrist is far more widespread than any of us imagine. . . . {7BC 950.2}

The maxims of the world, that know not God, have been worked into the theories of the church. In the eyes of men, vain philosophy and science, falsely so-called, are of more value than the Word of God. The sentiment prevails to a large extent that the divine Mediator is not essential to the salvation of man. A variety of theories advanced by the so-called worldly-wise men for man's elevation, are believed and trusted in more than is the truth of God, as taught by Christ and His apostles. {7BC 950.3}

The lying spirit that enticed Eve in Eden, finds acceptance with the majority of earth's inhabitants today. Even the Christian world refuses to be converted by the Spirit of God, but listens to the prince of darkness, as he comes to them in the garb of an angel of light. The spirit of Antichrist is prevailing in the world to a far greater extent than it has ever prevailed before. {7BC 950.4}

The day of test and purification is just upon us. Signs of a most startling character appear, in floods, in hurricanes, in tornadoes, in cloudbursts, in casualties by land and by sea, that proclaim the approach of the end of all things. The judgments of God are falling on the world, that men may be awakened to the fact that Christ will come speedily (RH Nov. 8, 1892). {7BC 950.5}

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2. Repeat from {TM 409.3}

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3. The truth as it is in Jesus is regarded as an old-fashioned doctrine. The maxims of the world, that know not God, have been worked into the theories of the church. In the eyes of men, vain philosophy and science, falsely so-called, is of more value than the word of God. The sentiment prevails to a large extent that the divine Mediator is not essential to the salvation of man. A variety of theories advanced by the so-called worldly-wise men for man's elevation, are believed and trusted in more than is the truth of God, as taught by Christ and his apostles. The lying spirit that enticed Eve in Eden, finds acceptance with the majority of earth's inhabitants today. Even the Christian world refuses to be converted by the Spirit of God, but listen to the prince of darkness, as he comes to them in the garb of an angel of light. The spirit of antichrist is prevailing in the world to a far greater extent than it has ever prevailed before. The day of test and purification is just upon us. Signs of a most startling character appear, in floods, in hurricanes, in tornadoes, in cloud-bursts, in casualties by land and by sea, that proclaim the approach of the end of all things. The judgments of God are falling on the world, that men may be awakened to the fact that Christ will come speedily. The Lord is about to reveal the difference between the righteous and the wicked; for his "fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." {RH, November 8, 1892 par. 6}

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4. Repeat from - {SpTA11 7.2}

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5. Repeat from - {1888 1646.6}

It's interesting to see how hard we struggle to avoid accepting that which the Bible plainly says.
Instead of denying that part of scripture which disagrees with our biases and preconceived ideas, why don't we make an effort to find ways to meld contrary concepts. In physics, such a pair of incompatible concepts was encountered at the turn of the last century. There were numerous experiments which proved without a doubt that light was a wave motion. It could not consist of little "particles." However, Compton devised an experiment in which he proved beyond any doubt that light had to be a particle motion, it could not be a wave motion. This dilemma was resolved by the development of quantum mechanics which showed that light actually consisted of bundles of waves. Further experiments showed that what were thought to be particles (electrons, for instance) also had wave properties which we now utilize to make the electron microscope.

So when we find one passage of scripture which states God sent a spirit to deceive Ahab and another which says God cannot lie, maybe it's time to look beyond the surface for a more general principle which envelops both concepts. Just as in the case of the nature of light, the exercise may yield new understanding of both God's character and His ways of dealing with the sin problem in which He is embroiled.

I will be absent from this computer for the next week. It will be interesting to see if any of you can develop some new understanding from this dilemma.

Bob Lee

No dilemma here; there's plenty of evidence that shows the proper way to view this.

Paul uses similar language about God and lies in 2 Thessalonians 2:11 -- "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie..."

Does God actually send the delusion? Does God directly cause people to believe a lie? Is that what He wants people to do?

Bear in mind James' statement, "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth He any man." James 1:13. And Peter's statement that God is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9. And Jesus' statement that "God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved." John 3:17. How can these things be so, if God makes people believe a lie?

Using Paul's language of 2 Thess. 2, Ellen White wrote, "They rejected the truth, and the enemy has had power to bring strong delusions upon them that they should believe a lie." 1T 73.

Also, "There are but two parties. Satan works with his crooked, deceiving power, and through strong delusions he catches all who do not abide in the truth, who have turned away their ears from the truth and have turned unto fables. Satan himself abode not in the truth; he is the mystery of iniquity." TM 365.

So Satan causes people to believe a lie, not God. Though the Bible language appears to say that God does it.

It seems that 'melding concepts' is not the thing to do here; proper understanding of language idiom is the better thing to attempt. When some things are stated clearly and plainly, and other things which seem to put forth contradictory ideas are stated in more nebulous terms, it's certainly wise to take the clear statement on its face, and see what is really meant by the nebulous statement.

We have crystal-clear statements that God "cannot lie" (Titus 1:2), and that Satan "is a liar, and the father of it" (John 8:44).

More plain evidences from the Bible:

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me." John 14:6.

"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, He shall testify of Me." John 15:26.

"Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; but have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God." 2 Corinthians 4:1,2.

"For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth." 2 Corinthians 13:8.

"For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth..." Ephesians 5:9.

"Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity." 1 Timothy 2:7.

"But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth." 1 Timothy 3:15.

"I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth." 1 John 2:21.

"This is He that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth." 1 John 5:6.

"And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth..." Exodus 34:6.

"He is the Rock, His work is perfect: for all His ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is He." Deuteronomy 32:4.

"For the word of the Lord is right; and all His works are done in truth." Psalm 33:4.

"But Thou, O Lord, art a God full of compassion, and gracious, longsuffering, and plenteous in mercy and truth." Psalm 86:15.

And finally this --

Revelation 21:8 says that "all liars...have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." If God could lie, or cause or command others to lie (which is basically the same thing) then His rightful place would be in that lake too, wouldn't it?

I agree that suggesting that God could do anything of the sort is exceedingly dangerous, because it calls His very character into question. That's what Satan did at the beginning of his rebellion.

[ May 20, 2002: Message edited by: John ]

As I suggested last week, there may be deeper insights in subjects where conflicting information is presented in scripture. As John says above, it is clear that God does not lie. But what is a lie? Do we define it or does God? Is hyperbole (I told you a million times to pick up those toys) a lie? Or exaggeration (I'll be ready in a minute)? How about sarcasm (a nuclear explosion could ruin your whole day) or flattery (She: how do I look? He: beautiful [while muttering under his breath, "I wish she'd get rid of that stupid belt, or shoes, or hat])? Does the use of idioms constitute lying ("God's wrath" and "in the spirit" both seem to be idiomatic expressions in scripture)? How about slight-of-hand (commonly called magic)? Is an ambush or a trap or a sting operation a lie? That would seem to be the situation described in I Kings 22 though Micaiah also seems to have used a bit of sarcasm in verse 15!

In another field, how about common descriptions of phenomena that are inaccurate such as "the sun goes around the Earth"? You can see that one. The sun comes up in the east, goes across the sky and sets in the west. It's not unreasonable to assume that during the night, it goes under us (the other side of the world) during the night. In fact, with modern communications, we can call someone on the other side of the world and confirm that the sun is over there at night. Yet we know that in reality, the Earth goes around the sun, not the other way around.

Still farther out is the situation where someone changes their mind. Do they lie? God Himself has done that many times (see Exodus 33, II Kings 20, and Ezekiel 4 for examples). Was God lying when He told Adam he would die on the day he ate the "apple" (he didn't) or when He told David his kingdom would last forever (it didn't). Was Jonah lying when he said Nineveh would be destroyed in forty days (it wasn't).

Maybe it's time to go back to the definition God stated on which we base our condemnation of lying. Exodus 20:16 and Deut. 5:20 both state, "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor" (NIV). There are several buzz words in this oracle. The first one is "false." That means it is not true. But "false" is modified by the word "testimony." That's a legal term that eliminates most of the conditions I outlined above. Then comes the word "against." I would assume that means testimony which harms or hurts or destroys. Finally, comes the word "neighbor." It's not quite so clear, but I presume those who are trying to harm or destroy you are not really what God would call your neighbor. Or His neighbor, for that matter, which brings us back to the situation with Ahab who was trying to destroy God's people and His program. It seems to me that God was within His rights to set up an ambush for Ahab just as He told Joshua to do earlier at Ai (Joshua 8). By His own definition, then, God does not lie. But that does not prevent Him from defending Himself and His people by using methods we humans have trouble understanding.

Bob Lee

[ May 30, 2002, 03:25 AM: Message edited by: Boblee ]

I think we should never lie. This doens't mean we have to give information to everybody that asks. If during the holocaust someobody was hiding Jews and the Gestopo asked it they where they were hiding Jews they could just not tell.

I don't know if any of you have read The Hiding Place, but it tells a story about a Dutch family who was hiding Jews. There is one family in this true story who would NEVER lie, every single one of the family members came out of the war alive, while others that weren't living in the house didn't always do so well, and they were hiding Jews too. I'm pretty sure none of the Jews they were hiding were captured either.

After all, Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord, but they that deal truly are His delight. Prov. 12:22

One last thing, I really apriciate how polite everybody is, I think it is wonderful, and it isn't like this everywere!
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