I opened this new topic only for posting my answers to Ikan’s very long post that I could not find anymore in the "Search for the truth" forum. My post is also long enough, so I will divide it in 7 parts for a good and deep reading and study.

I hope, since this forum is called “Bible study”, then after reading my post here, the Administrator will not close or lock or erase this topic. If so is the case, they may as well close this forum.

If this is a forum to study the bible, then let’s us share out idea about truth and error and gives Forum readers something worthy for they to read of. The church doctrines has stand many years against many attacks, so why afraid to just a single post from a person who never took any theology courses or seminary, who was a person of nothing in the Church organization and just a mere member with his weird idea that never had given the chance to preach on the aisle.

Common’, give me your best theological defense to uphold your doctrines and teachings. And let’s the Forum readers find the truth themselves.

In His love.

James S.

PART ONE.

Quote:

Now there are those who teach that they are saved and yet do not have to keep the law. This is a very strange theology indeed. If a person is not keeping the law of God, then he is breaking it. The breaking of it is sin, as it is plainly written, “Sin is the transgression of the law” – 1 John 3:4.

Unquote.

This statement “If a person is not keeping the law of God, then he is breaking it” is true but not right and could not be applied to those who believe that the law of God (The ten Commandments) is no longer a law that they must keep and obey, a law that has an authority over them and that stands as a standard of judgment. And I am one of them who believe so!

The person (me) is not keeping the law of God because the law is no longer needed and has no more authority over me, so, how could I break the law and sinned? I will only break the law if I accept it authority and existence and obey it. In other word, I break the law and sinned when I am under the law, which means I am under it authority to keep and obey and that will stand for me as a standard of judgment.

But if I’m not under it authority since I believe the law was nailed to the cross and ended in Christ, then I could not be considered sinning if I didn’t keep it, let say I break it. How could I break a law that didn’t exist or that I’m not under it authority?

“Because the law worketh wrath; for where no law is, there is no transgression” – Romans 4:15, and “for until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law” – Romans 5:13.

Simply said; without the law, there is no transgression, and sin, which is in the world since the beginning will not be imputed!

So, if I sin without the law, my sins is not imputed, because I didn’t break any law that might legally judge and condemn me. But it doesn’t mean that I may go on sinning and still will be in heaven. The bible said, “For as many as have sinned without the law shall also perish without the law, ……” Romans 2:12, and, “What then? Shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid! – Romans 6:15.

But the important thing is that by not keeping the law doesn’t mean that I automatically breaks the law or have the right to break it as thought the law still exist.

In His love

James S.

PART TWO.

Then how can I live righteous without the law?

By living with faith in Christ and according to the Spirit.

Do you believe when a person lives by faith and according to the Spirit will break the law as if the law still exists? If he does, then he is not living by faith and according to the Spirit but he lives for the flesh according to it desires. Only those who lives by faith and according to the Spirit might have the “fruit of the Spirit” that fulfill the righteous demands of the law, a righteous life that conforms to the law demands.

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, etc…………, against such there is no law”-Galatians 5:22,23.

“”That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit” – Romans 8:4.

So, we knew now that without the law a believer who lives by faith and according to the Spirit might still have a righteous life that conforms to the law demands, because his righteous deeds are fruits of the Spirit.

Why did the verse say, “might be”?

This is clarified in another Paul’s statement, “This I say then, walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusted lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to the one to the other; so that ye cannot do the things that you would. But if ye be led by the Spirit, ye are not under the law” – Galatians 5:16-118.

Here Paul clarify, although a believer is led by the Spirit, but since he has a sinful nature that conflicts with what the Spirit desires, he still might do the things he doesn’t want to do (things that he knew is against God’s principle). This is the evidence of Paul theology that he never taught a sinless perfect life is possible and is a must for justification to enter heaven and live eternally.

But the most important point of this conflict situation is as Paul said, “But if ye be led by the Spirit, ye are not under the law.”

In His love

James S.

PART THREE.

But the most important point of this conflict situation is as Paul said, “But if ye be led by the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

What does this mean?

This means, that a believer who lives by faith and led by the Spirit, is not under the law judgment and condemnation! Why not, he did sin all right as he did the things of the flesh?

Not because of as many as of you believes, that “in Christ there is no condemnation” (Romans 8:1), but because THE LAW HAS NO AUTHORITY OVER HIM where the law may legally JUDGE and CONDEMN him. This is what is meant with being “not under the law.”

Remember! When there is no law, there is no transgression, and sin will not be imputed! He did sin but why is his sin not imputed? Because this sin is not a sin of breaking the law where the law can judge and condemn him. Beside, his sin is not imputed because he is not under the law, but under grace (Romans 6:14), where God will remember his sins and iniquities no more (Hebrew 10:17).

On the other hand, those who believe that the law has a full authority and legality over men where they must keep and obey the law as God’s law for a standard of judgment and righteousness, will be under the law condemnation when they break it. This is what is mean by “not the hearers of the law that will be justified but the doers of the law” Romans 2:13.

And who are the doers of the law so that they might be justified by the law and got their eternal life? Or who might escape from the law condemnation when they were found guilty and could not be justified? Not any one!!!

Because the bible said, “the law can justify no one” (Romans 3:19,20; Galatians 2:16; 3:11), since no one could keep the law perfectly and continuously and fulfils it righteous demands.

In His love

James S.

PART FOUR.

There are no believers that could keep a sinless perfect life in this side of the world in their sinful nature that just will be perfected in a holy body at Christ second coming (1 Corinthians 15:52-54). And if anyone claims they can perform a perfect sinless life, in them there is no truth. “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his world is not in us” 1 John 1:8,10.

Paul said, “For as many as are of the works of the law are under curse; for it is written, cursed is everyone that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them” Galatians 3:10. Then, tell me, who of you could keep the law perfectly and continuously and fulfill it righteous demands so that you might be freed from the curse of the law? Who of you could perform a perfect sinless life?

Thus, according to the Scripture, all law keepers were under the curse of the law and will die permanently and Christ could not help them. Why not? Because firstly, they are not in Christ yet and secondly, it is not as what they believed that being ‘in Christ” the law could not touch them.

Firstly, why did I say that law keeper’s believers are not in Christ yet (but they believe they were)?

The bible said, “Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster, to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus” Galatians 3:24-26. “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth” Romans 10:4.

Clearly we read that the law served as a guide or a schoolmaster to bring its law keepers to Christ. For what? For righteousness! What righteousness? Righteousness by faith! Why not righteousness by the law? Because the law could justify no one, since no one could perform a perfect righteous life that fulfills the demands of the law (Romans 3:28; Galatians 2:16; 3:11). That’s why all law keepers were under the curse of the law (Galatians 3:10; Romans 3:19), under eternal condemnation, and only through the redemption made by Christ Jesus they may have their salvation. Thus, the law while condemning it law keepers brought them also to Christ for redemption and salvation. When they believe him and admit their faith in him, they didn’t need the serving of the law any longer. The law ministration comes to an end in Christ, to be replaced with a better and glorious ministry, which is of the Spirit. If the ministration of the law leads only to condemnation and death (for that we need Christ), then the ministration of the Spirit gives life eternal (since we are in Christ) – 2 Corinthians 3:6-10.

In His love

James Saptenno

PART FIVE.

From the verses above, we can simply said: “Christ is the end of the law observance (to keep and obey that will only lead to condemnation and death) because through our faith in him we may have the righteousness of the law (that we could not gain through obedience) as fruit of the Spirit fulfilled in us, and justify us for eternal life.”

In Christ through faith, a believer must live by faith according to the Spirit for a justification by faith. If he continue again in the ministration of the law by keeping and observing it, he steps out from faith ‘in Christ” and walk again in the road of the law that will only condemn him to death, and again he need Christ for his redemption. Walking in the road of the law means a law keeper is not in Christ yet, since Christ is the end of the law, he must arrive first “in Christ” and to continue his life in the way of the Spirit through faith.

Christ is the end of the law but the beginning of a faith relationship with God.

Those who keep the law with faith in Christ (as they believe so) were in fact an unbeliever and have no faith at all, they were still in the way of the law as their schoolmaster that will lead them to Christ.

That’s why the law was only made for the Jews (Romans 3:27-30) and not for the Gentiles. The law was designated only for a specific time span and not eternally, since it ends in Christ and nailed to the cross (Luke 16:16; Ephesians 2:15; Colossians 2:14,16).

Secondly, why did I say that law keepers misinterpreting Romans 8:1, as it is not as what they believe, that in Christ the law could not touch them with it curse and condemnation?

According to Romans 8:1-4, a believer “in Christ” is not under condemnation, not because the curse of the law could not touch him, but because he was led by the Spirit that sets him free from the power of sin so that he might have a righteous life that fulfils the demands of the law.

How could a Spirit led believer lives against God’s principles? If he does, he did not live by faith and is not led by the Spirit, but he lives for him self according to the flesh and satisfies it desires.

In His love

James S.

PART SIX.

To think and believe that “in Christ” the law (curse) could not touch a believer and so he is not under condemnation of the law is a wrong perception of what is written in Romans 8:1-4.

What is said there is, that because a believer is led by the Spirit, he was set free from the power of sin that enable him to have a righteous life that fulfill the demands of the law. But even so, since he still has a sinful nature he might do the things he did not wants to do as according to Galatians 5:16-18 and sins against the principle of God. Only as long as he lives by the Spirit, he is not under the law, not under it judgment and condemnation, but under grace where God will remember his sins and iniquities no more.

This is in accordance with what is stated earlier in Romans 6:14, “For sin shall not have dominion over you; for ye are not under the law, but under grace.”

This verse simply said, that being under the law (where a person is under the authority of the law which require his obedience and that the law has the legal right to judge and condemn him when he breaks the law) a believer is under dominion of sin and makes sin as his master. In other word, a law keeper believer lives in sin. He did not make God as his master (even though he believes so), but sin is his master. This sin is his self-love nature that is against God’s nature of agape love. We may say, that a law keeper believer makes him self (the “I”) as his master and lives for the flesh.

How could that be?

The bible answer that with, “The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law” 1 Corinthians 15:56.

Keeping the law strengthen our sinful nature to dominate us and satisfy it desires. Keeping the law empowers sin to dominate us! This sin is our sinful nature, a nature of “love for self” invented by Lucifer that is against God’s nature of agape love. The desire to keep and obey the law is the desire of self, motivated by self-love, to be righteous, to be sinless, to gain heaven, etc.

Thus a law keeper believer did not live by faith and not led by the Spirit, but a sinful life as according to the flesh.

This truth correspond with what is written in Galatians 3:12 “The law is not of faith; but, the man that doeth them will live in them”, and “whatsoever is not of faith is sin” Romans 14:23.

In His love

James S.

PART SEVEN.

Keeping and obeying the law for Christ’s believers is not an evidence of faith but rather it is an evidence of the absence of faith. Keeping the law is an act of the sinful nature, a desire of the flesh and so it is the acts of the flesh. “The man who doeth it” is the sign that who did it, did it by the flesh, an act of obedience that comes from “self”, from a desire of the flesh, it did not come from faith. And whatsoever is not of faith is sin, a sin against God’s principle.

Unless it is fruit of the Spirit that comes from faith, all other deeds are acts of the flesh.

No wonder that Paul tried his best in all of his letters to explain that the law has no longer authority over Christ believers (Romans 6:14,15; 7:6; Galatians 3:23-25; 4:1-7, 21-31), that the law was nailed at the cross (Ephesians 2:14-16; Colossians 2:14,16,17), sets aside and useless (Hebrew 7:18,19; 8:7,13) and comes to an end in Christ (Romans 10:4). That keeping the law only leads to condemnation and death (2 Corinthians 3:6-9), because the law empowers sin to dominate us (1 Corinthians 15:56, Romans 6:14; 7:1-13) and through the law kill us.

And since the ministry to the law was ended in Christ, those who believe this and live by faith are not law-breakers but instead the righteous demands of the law was fulfilled in them by the Spirit. Although there is no law for them, but being in Christ through faith and he in us through his Spirit, we will have many good fruits that conforms the righteous demands of the law, that conforms God’s principle, and by the leading of the Spirit, we will enter the gate of heaven and live eternally with God.

Those who choose the way of the law by continue in keeping the law in fact were law-breakers, because their obedience were deeds of the flesh and could not fulfill the law righteous demands. They have no faith in Christ and rely on observing the law for a righteous life, a healthy life, a wealthy life, and eternal life. But on the other hand, condemnation and death is their reward.

I have given everything I knew, be glad and grateful because at least there is some one who could tell you another way of thinking about the word of God and not just what the church told you.

END.

In His love

James S.

After reading these post, I will be really grateful if Forum Administrator didn’t close or lock this thread. Anyway, it is just a bible study and everybody can write what he thinks of, but the readers must choose, check and edit themselves whether it told the truth or error. If it is an error, then please advice where the error lays giving a biblical evaluations, not just closed this thread or lock it.

I love you all brothers and sisters and really want to share what I thought is the truth of the gospel of Christ. Something that is alien and weird for you but it conforms the bible teaching unless somebody could clarify it is not.

Happy study and happy Sabbath.

In His love

James S.