Will, can you please comment on each of the SOP quotes I shared above. Do they agree with your premise that God cannot empower us to live without sinning?

Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, February 7, 1957, paragraph 18
Article Title: The Need of Self-Surrender
"If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: but if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword." These words are true. Exact obedience is required, and those who say that it is not possible to live a perfect life throw upon God the imputation of injustice and untruth.

Mike,
I think you have and are grossly misrepresenting my faith and making false claims that I think God cannot empower us to live without sinning which means that you are passing judgment on me, and falsely accused me of something that has not 1 shred of truth and if what you believe is true then why should I even bother or even attempt to witness to others about the plan of salvation which is what Christ told us to doMark 16:15,and have accepted Christ as my Lord and Savior so I forgive you for falselyaccusing me of being faithless which is absolutely not true so if its not true guess what it is..a Lie..and isn't lying a sin?I have taken your comment personally as an attack on my person. Now with that said I will continue. As I have said before and is clearly written in the bible it is not something that happens overnight it is daily as we walk in His Spirit, and we need to surrender to Him completely. I agree with those things, so what happens when you get mad at someone or make false accusations against them?If you sin you can ask for forgiveness this is biblical, but this is not to say that you should continue sinning because the Holy Spirit will convict you of your sins, and you will come to repentance, and be sanctified daily as The Lord strengthens you. As for the SOP's you have posted I have not had the opportunity to read SOP's because I find myself studying the Word of God than reading SOP's, but I do pick up some literature that assists me on studyng the bible such as Steps to Christ, or Understanding the Trinity (not that we can completely). Anyways I will make a comment for each of your SOP's.

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#1 Yes I agree. Christ is our example and we are to have like minds like Him. He came to serve rather than be served, and be humble and meek with one another.

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#2 I agree with as well.
1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

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#3 I agree with as well because we need to surrender completely to Christ, and he will work in us and build us up.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

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#4 I agree with as well. None can escape the law, but we are not under the Law if we have not sinned, but when we do sin we are under the Law and the Holy Spirit points us to Chrst to come to repentance which is why we have been saved by grace, and not the Law!

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#5 I agree as well. Christ leads us to not sin, and he gives us the strength to do so. An extremely good example of this is your false accusations against me in front of everyone who is reading this Mike. By the grace of God I have not made one railing accusation against you. That my friend is called Fruit of the Spirit, and when you exhibit the Fruit of the Spirit Christ is in you guiding you, so have I achieved a state of sinlessness...

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#6 I agree as well. The Lord hears my prayers and His eye is over me, and He guides me as well.

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#7 I agree as well. The Holy Spirit is working in each of us guiding us and giving us strength.

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#8 I agree as well. We need to acknowledge our sins and ask for repentance. This is what this whole thread is regarding if we can achieve a state of sinlessness. The very SOP you quote in #8 is making reference to not acknowledging your sins even if its a little white lie is a sin. If it is !
Please refer to 1 John 1:8-10 for this.

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#9 I agree. A persons Character is made perfect in Christ. It is the blood of Christ that makes our sins that were red as scarlet to be white as snow. This is biblical
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

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#10
This should actually read "Without Christ we cannot enter into the prearly gates of heaven" Please use biblical sources when making claims upon which our salvation is based and on how we are to enter heaven..

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#11
Shoudnt this read "The law cannot save you but only Chrst can save you. We behold Christ the Son of God for saving us and taking away the sins of the world" the SOP #10 that you have posted my friend is a clear cut case of legalism. A means of justification by following every letter of the law which was the opening of the sentence. Something the Pharisees were guilty of. Below I have provided verses that illustrate otherwise.

Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
1Th 5:9-10
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

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#11
Please refer to my statement in #10. Once again salvation comes by faith in Jesus Christ not anything else. We live through Christ. #11 also states that we must come to Jesus and be clansed of our sins.
Also just in case you plan on telling me "So do you think believe that once saved always saved." If that were the case then my character would have never changed at all, but it has this is called a testimony. A testimony to the power of Christ who saves us, loves us, and guides us by the Holy Spirit. I needed to tell you this incase you were thinking that once you have accepted Chrst that you can go on doing whatever. That is not the case at all because we love the Lord and He guides us in His paths of righteousness.

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#12
I agree
Sin is transgression of the law, and the law that we refer to includes the 10 commandments. Thou shalt not covet etc etc, and we conform to Gods law because we love Him, and He guides us to this. The world has a sin problem and we overcome sin by Christ.

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#13
I agree. Do you give everything to God? I do.. all my thoughts my heart,soul, actions, and words..

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#14
I agree we are victorious through Christ!

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#15 I agree, and this also clearly states that our work is to strive which means to struggle against opposition, to devote serious effort and time, and by definition looks to me as if it is an ongoing process. Look up the word for yourself

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I really hope and pray that you appreciate the time and effort I took to answer each of your 15 SOP quotes. Now I have some questions to ask you which you so conveniently decided to be so elusive about.

#1. Have you sinned since you were born again?
#2. Being a pastor of a church are there any sinners in that church?
#3. Have you achieved a state of sinlessness?
In closing what does this mean to you:

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Galatians 5:22-26
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

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My edit of this post includes your last quote from the advent review just so you know that not one comment or implication passes by me with out notice.

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Advent Review
We do need to surrender to Christ, and not doing so is being rebellious.
Now here is my response to you for using this quote to attempt to prove your point.

Now are you saying that I am rebellious? Are you once again falsely accusing me of not following Christ by using a comment from the advent review? Have I not just placed more than once the very truths and as given in the bible and also given my testimony by sharing some little pieces of issues I encountered and sinned and asked God for forgiveness in order to show you that I am a chrstian since you are telling me and everyone here that I am not. Because what you basically asked for in your request to answer each of the 15 SOP's that are quite lengthy and tedious to read which makes sense as to why I read the bible instead of basing my salvation and biblical interpretation on SOPS?! Is that I am not a chrstian and you were trying to prove to everyone that

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"Here ladies and gentlement is someone who is not saved. Did you see by his own words denying the power of God".

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So I have given and have also suffered by your gross misrepresentation of a chrstians character at maybe not my expense but yours. I my friend have seen enough things in my life and have witnessed the glory and salvation of Christ to the point that He is using me to witness to others. Whether it be at work, at home, on the streets, or in a forums such as this to a pastor and its readers, and it is a joy to have explained all this in detail to you, so perhaps you being a pastor of a church of whom much has been given can possibly get an understanding and perspective from how the bible that tells us we are in need of a savior! . Anyways Galatians 5:22-26, John 3:16 and all the other verses I posted for you above.

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God BLess,
Will

Will, I have offended you. I am sorry. When Daryl asked, "In other words, can a born again Christian actually achieve sinlessness in this life?" You reponded with the following statement, "In a nutshell. I believe the answer is NO. We cannot achieve a state of sinlessness. It says so in the bible. If we do not sin anymore is there any need of repentance?"

Then later on you wrote, "This is the very same nature of claiming to live a life of sinlessness (without sin) No one can do that. Its in the bible its not my own opinion, and the bible interprets itself, and it clearly states that this state is not something we can do. We can go on and sin no more in the sense of not habitually commiting the same sin over and over and over and forgetting about it and live in sin, but through Christ He will help us overcome those sins, but we will not be sinless."

From these remarks I assumed you meant we cannot cease sinning in this lifetime. Now I realize you do believe God can completely deliver us from all sin, that He can truly set us free from all sin sometime during course of our lifetime. Amen! I did not mean to falsely accuse you. My mistake. Please forgive me.

Will wrote:

"I really hope and pray that you appreciate the time and effort I took to answer each of your 15 SOP quotes. Now I have some questions to ask you which you so conveniently decided to be so elusive about.

#1. Have you sinned since you were born again?
#2. Being a pastor of a church are there any sinners in that church?
#3. Have you achieved a state of sinlessness?

In closing what does this mean to you:

Galatians 5:22-26
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another."

The answer to questions 1, 2 and 3 is Yes. Would you like me to elaborate? Galatians 5:22-26 describes the life of a born again believer who is connected to Jesus, who is walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man. So long as they are connected to Jesus they do not and cannot commit a known sin.

Ellen White put it this way:

Those who believe on Christ and obey His commandments are not under bondage to God's law; for to those who believe and obey, His law is not a law of bondage, but of liberty. Everyone who believes on Christ, everyone who relies on the keeping power of a risen Saviour that has suffered the penalty pronounced upon the transgressor, everyone who resists temptation and in the midst of evil copies the pattern given in the Christ life, will through faith in the atoning sacrifice of Christ become a partaker of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. Everyone who by faith obeys God's commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. {HP 146.5}

I already forgave you in my heart a while ago Mike, and even went to the length of praying and asking The Lord to forgive my own remarks if they seemed abit off color and that if I am in the wrong to please guide me and show me The Way, and we know the Way is Jesus Christ! . I do think that if someone does not cease from commiting the same sins over and over again then the truth is not in that person. There are many things that I need work on and there are many things that by the grace of God have been removed from me.
I dont know of anyone who has achieved this state. The Lord loves us as we are and wants to be in our lives, so I think as we grow in Christ He will remove our issues and brake the chains in His way, some may be removed instantly others may be removed as a result of guilt that you experience when you sin which leads you to repentance and you will eventually stop doing it because you love The Lord, but if you sin in someay shape or form we know that we can come to God and ask for forgiveness and He will forgive us, and lead us and strengthen us to not do such things.Anyways Mike thanks for leading by example and God Bless and Happy Sabbath:)

God Bless,
Will

Will, did my last post slip in while you working on your last one?

Hi Mike,
Well your last post most definitely slipped by because I did not see anything else after I had posted:)
There is no need to elaborate on questions #1 & #2, however I am baffled by how you are sinless #3. I think that if you answered yes to #2, then how can you say that a born again Christian can achieve a state of sinlessness if you commited a sin ever since being born again? and how do you know when you get to that state?
Are we talking about the sinlessness that we have in Christ Jesus or the sinlessness physically on our own as a result of lets say"Today I did not even think bad about anyone,didnt lie, didnt covet, didnt commit adultery (mentally and physically), did not disrepect my parents etc etc.."? I believe that we are blameless in Christ Jesus thats a fact if that was not the case then it would be salvation by works.
I would like to know more about this if you don't mind because. I think that the issue of being sinless in Christ vs not sinning are 2 different things. Constantly sinning is habitual and in someones character, and we are not perfect. There is not one night that I do not ask the Lord to forgive my sins because I may have sinned against someone unknowingly, or that I may have sinned by thinking someone was an idiot, or whatever the case may be, but I do not say that I am without sin. So if possible at least elaborate on #3. Also to get to the state that Adam was at that would mean that we would have to live in perfection? This would be before sin entered the world.. I am now confused by this. It seems to be a salvation by works because we live in a world of sin to get to the state Adam was in would mean that everything is perfect and this will not be done until Christ comes again. Until then we are going to be persecuted, lied to, slandered against, manipulated, but we need to stay on point even when these situations may cause you to think ill thoughts towards someone we need to come to Christ and ask for forgiveness and strength. If we are without sin in the sense of perfection is there a need for salvation? Please elaborate with scripture, as I find this teaching of achieving a state of sinlessness to be confusing.
God Bless,
Will

Will, to start off with let's consider Jesus. He was sinless and yet He possessed a 1) sinful nature and lived in a 2) sinful world, the same as you and me. Thus obviously these two things do not prevent us from being sinless.

But I believe you've hit the nail on the head when you mentioned sinful thoughts and feelings. But again let's consider Jesus. He was tempted in every way we are tempted. This includes being tempted by His sinful nature. As you know sinful nature generates and communicates tempting sinful thoughts and feelings which we must recognize and resist in the strength of Jesus.

1. The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. The love of God must reign supreme; Christ must occupy an undivided throne. Our bodies are to be regarded as His purchased possession. The members of the body are to become the instruments of righteousness. {AH 127.2}

It is important that we claim the promises of God. "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Mat 5:48. We are born again morally perfect. "Ye are complete in him... perfect and complete in all the will of God." Col 2:10 and 4:12. "Having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." 2 Peter 1:4. We have "ceased from sin; that he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God." 2 Peter 4:1,2. "Henceforth we should not serve sin... Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." Romans 6:6,18.

When we walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man we do not and cannot commit a known sin. See Gal 5:16, Eph 4:21-24 and 1 John 3:9. However, that does not mean that our sinful nature stops bombarding our minds with sinful tempting thoughts and feelings. Not until Jesus rewards us with a new body and nature will we be free from harassing sinful temptations.

But we must not confuse these sinful tempting thoughts and feelings with our new man mind. We must not own them as if we are guilty of them. Like Jesus, who also suffered being tempted (Heb 2:18), we must recognize and resist these unholy thoughts and feelings as the voice of Satan - and not automatically assume we are guilty of them because we are conscious of them. All temptations begin as unholy thoughts and feelings. But if we trust Jesus to empower us to resist them unto the honor and glory of God our Father we are more than conquerors. Amen.

Does this make sense?

Hi Mike,
Your response clears up alot of things indeed, so by not giving in to temptation not by our own will but by subjecting our minds and hearts to Christ He will deliver us from actually physically carrying out and\or even dwelling on those sinful thoughts correct? A verse comes to mind as I read your last post which clears things up.

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1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

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So we are sinful in nature which is what 1 john 1:8 is referring to correct?

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1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

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And it is now much more clearer that the thoughts that manifest itself all of a sudden that are not according to the will of God are not of good repute as mentioned in Phillipans 4:8 are contrary to Gods will and go against Him and are thus sinful, and this is when we need to ask Christ to wipe away those thoughts and surrender ourselves to His love correct?

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Phi 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things [are] honest, whatsoever things [are] just, whatsoever things [are] pure, whatsoever things [are] lovely, whatsoever things [are] of good report; if [there be] any virtue, and if [there be] any praise, think on these things.

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I think I know what you mean by sinlessness which would mean that a person is not commited and habitually carrying out those sinful,lustful, or worldly deeds, but by surendering to Christ the grace of God will carry us through by a way of escape from the situation correct, but if we do fall into sin due to our lack of faith which was a result of a weakness we can be assurred that we can come to Christ and confess our sins, and He will forgive us. Let me know if this sounds correct as I am trying to understand the magnitude of what is meant by sinlessness and its application by reading what God has to say about it in the bible.

God Bless,
Will

Will, it looks as though we are approaching unity of thought here. Amen! However, I am more inclined to take 1 John 1:8 and 10 to mean we have a history of sinning, rather than we have a sinful nature that craves sinning. And I wouldn't blame our frequent and unfortunate backsliding on our weaknesses because in Christ our weaknesses are made our strongest attributes. See 2 Cor 12:9 and Heb 11:34.

There are legitimate reasons why we slip so easily into sin, back into the mind of the old man, but these reasons do not count as excuses. See 1 Cor 10:13. We may be tired, sick, behind the power curve, had a bad day at work, etc - but although these things drain us of strength it does not rob Jesus of His ability to pull us off more than conquerors. Our ability to resist temptation does not depend upon our strengths or weaknesses - it relies totally upon being connected to Jesus.

Anytime and everytime we resist temptation it is because we were connected to Jesus. Thus there is only one reason why we fail and slide back into the mind of the old man and sin - it is because we took our eyes off Jesus, because we stopped abiding in His love and power. So long as we are connected to Jesus, in fellowship with Him, walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man we are morally perfect, sinless, cleansed from all sin, all unrighteousness - morally and legally.

1 John
1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Jesus didn't say - Become perfect or become sinless. He simply said - Be perfect, be sinless. We do not become perfect after we're born again, rather we are born again perfect. The growth we enjoy in Christ involves maturing in the fruits of the Spirit. Thank you Jesus!

And just because Jesus sets us free from a life of sinning it does not mean that repentance and salvation are no longer needful. Repentance includes the power to live without sin. It's not just for forgiveness. And salvation includes freedom from sins past, present and future. But we cannot sin in the mind of the new man. See 1 John 3:9. We must resurrect, as it were, the mind of the old man in order to commit a known sin.

Are we still in agreement?

[ April 19, 2003, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]