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Re: Sabbath activities - nonessential
#33639
04/22/01 03:05 AM
04/22/01 03:05 AM
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With great pleassure and relish, I do absolutely nothing on the Sabbath.
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| quote: me again |
If my fellow man needs help on the Lord's day, I will be the first to help. I also read the Bible, enjoy quiet time and occasionally socialize with others. For six days a week, I run non-stop. I work 40+ hours a week AND I'm a full time college student. Sometimes I suffer from exhaustion and when the Friday evening sunset arrives, I feel like collapsing.In reference to my above quote, DenBorg, in your opinion, should I repent? |
| quote: me again |
There was a story about a young man who had caught a bird. He decided to try to trick a wise man; so he went to the wise man and holding the bird in his hand asked him, "Wise man, this bird I am holding in my hands, is it dead or alive?" Of course the wise man knew what he had planned. If he said the bird was dead, he would open his hands and let the bird fly away. But if he said the bird was alive, he would break the bird's neck and let it drop to the ground. So the wise man answered him, "The answer lies in your hands."So the question for you, Me Again, do you truly do absolutely nothing, as you depicted in your first post? Or do you actually spend time with the Lord in witnessing to others by your help, and spending quiet time with Him, and reading your Bible, and fellowshipping with fellow believers? For these are two very different pictures which you have painted. I think you can answer this question for yourself. Just in case you get the mistaken impression that I do not know what your schedule is like, just let me assure you I do know. For I have that very same experience from high school and college. Since my parents could not afford to send me to the academy (grades 9 - 12), and since that is where I wanted to go, I worked and paid my own way. I did the same with college; going to school while working three jobs, one of which I'd work until 1am or 2am and still have to go to school that morning. I just wanted you to know that I know what you are facing with a schedule like that. -Dennis Borg [This message has been edited by DenBorg (edited April 22, 2001).]
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Re: Sabbath activities - nonessential
#33640
04/22/01 03:49 AM
04/22/01 03:49 AM
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Picture the experience Christ paints for us in the 25th Chapter of Matthew. Christ is coming in His glory. He is separating people one from another. He is saying to those on His right hand, "Come into my kingdom, for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, and you took me in: I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me. Those on His right hand say "when did we do those things." And He will answer, "Insomuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brothern, you did it to Me, as long as you did not do it on Sabbath.And He will turn to those on His left hand and they will say "we did those things Lord." "I know," is His response, "but you did them on Sabbath!" A little ridiculous, huh?
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| quote: DrD |
If that is what you understood my comments to be suggesting, then you haven't understood what I said.Another thing to keep in mind is that the needs of others and the wants of others are two different things.
It appears that what is important is not what we are doing, but who are we doing it for, and if we are doing it for His brothern, we are spending time with Him, what a blessing that will bring to the Sabbath.
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| quote: DrD |
Personally, I don't believe for a second that what we do is not important.Think of Paul before his conversion, killing Christians. He believed what he did was right, until he travelled down the road to Damascus that one day. That day, his actions were changed. I believe both actions and motives are important. I really appreciate Edward Sutton's comments; especially the last two posts of his from Page 1. This thread has been very interesting reading; and I've appreciated everyone's comments and am glad to have been able to participate. And I have some new things to ponder, as I commune with the Lord. He will guide me with His truth and wisdom. Thank you all for your comments.
-Dennis Borg
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Re: Sabbath activities - nonessential
#33641
04/22/01 02:16 PM
04/22/01 02:16 PM
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Charter Member
Veteran Member
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 881
Michigan, USA
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quote:
If my fellow man needs help on the Lord's day, I will be the first to help. I also read the Bible, enjoy quiet time and occasionally socialize with others.
That does not sound like doing absolutely nothing to me! ------------------
The Lord is the strength of my life and my portion forever.
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Re: Sabbath activities - nonessential
#33642
04/22/01 02:27 PM
04/22/01 02:27 PM
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Posting New Member
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 44
USA
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If you compare it to my schedule on the other six days, then it's doing nothing (at least in a physical sense e.g. physical activity).
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Re: Sabbath activities - nonessential
#33643
04/22/01 06:53 PM
04/22/01 06:53 PM
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OP
Full Member
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 132
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You are right, I don't understand what you are saying. It now appears that it is OK in your opinion to provide needs of others, but not their wants on Sabbath. Therefore, the man with the withered hand NEEDED to have it healed. And I would further understand your current post to mean that you would be the one to determine what is needed and what is wanted by Christ's brothern. I would suggest that one of my best friends with a "withered" hand does not need it healed, but he would sure like it healed. Could you help me understand your position and what made the healing of this person a need? I suggest that healing is never needed, but is always wanted. I would suggest that scooping snow on Sabbath is never needed, but always wanted. I would suggest that food on Sabbath is never needed, but always wanted. (At least in virtually all cases, waiting until sundown to eat would not be terminal.) Define with more precision your definition of want and your definition of need. We need Christ. So is telling of Christ the only activity appropriate on Sabbath? As has been stated, if we do it for others, we do it for Christ. Sabbath is for spending time with Christ. If my activity is for Christ, I am spending time with Him.
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Re: Sabbath activities - nonessential
#33644
04/22/01 10:06 PM
04/22/01 10:06 PM
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Are we not asked to worship Him on the Sabbath day in a special way that is different from the other six days of the week? __________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace Daryl 
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Re: Sabbath activities - nonessential
#33645
04/23/01 04:29 PM
04/23/01 04:29 PM
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OP
Full Member
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 132
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Daryl I would agree that we spend time and worship Him differently on Sabbath than on other days of the week. We put aside OUR OWN needs and focus on the needs of our and His brothern. Maybe you could help me a bit to understand the lesson you have learned from the experience and teaching Christ presented. And how the questions raised on this thread in limiting the "helping" activities on Sabbath are different from the questions raised by the theologians of Christ's day. This has been an interesting discussion. I must confess, however, in answer to a question posed, it is a focus of mine to de-emphasise rules and regulations and focus the minds of Christians on the needs of Christ's brothern. It is troubling to me that it is OK to sit around on Sabbath, accomplishing little, and not serving others, but it is not OK to show concern and follow up on that concern for others with activity that I would not do for myself on Sabbath. I agree that many of the activities that I would do for others on Sabbath, I would NOT do for myself on Sabbath. Perhaps therein lies the difference in how Sabbath is observed, and how our Lord is glorified on that day.
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Re: Sabbath activities - nonessential
#33646
04/23/01 06:13 PM
04/23/01 06:13 PM
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Daryl, It seems to me that one of the things that Jesus was trying to teach us about the Sabbath was how we are to worship God. For me a very good place to look for the answer to that is in the familiar passage from Isaiah 58. I find it interesting that Isaiah 58:13 is at the end of a discourse on fasting in the context of Israel seeking God and their efforts to worship Him. Notice the introduction in verses 1-2. Isaiah is instructed to point out the sins of the people and goes on to describe their diligent efforts in seeking God. They seem to be doing the worshipful things of seeking after God and fasting with all humility. But their efforts to impress God with their piety are not the worship and fasting that God desires. Notice in verses 6-12 which God introduces with the question, "Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen..." freeing the oppressed and burdened, righting injustice, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, providing shelter for the homeless. Notice God's response to this form of worship. The passage then concludes with a distinctly parallel message about the Sabbath.
As we have all struggled over the "seeking your own pleasure" phrase it is useful to pay particular attention to how that phrase is used in the earlier discourse on fasting in verses 3-4. In that context the Lord describes that "doing as you please" means exploiting ones workers, quarrelling and fighting, etc. Also notice the contrasting acceptable "fasting" and worship that is then described. Now use that to understand what seems in context almost an aside reference to Sabbath keeping. "Doing as you please" has far less to do with doing what we enjoy, having fun and seeking pleasurable activities on the Sabbath, but is following our sinful desires to the detriment of our fellow humans or ignoring their needs caused by the conditions of this sinful world. To swim, throw frisbee or whatever on the Sabbath seems to miss the point entirely.
I am impressed that Jesus kept the Sabbath by reaching out to people by addressing their needs in a real and practical sense. After all, this was His message to the children of Israel through the prophet Isaiah. Our worship and praise to God which is most pleasing to Him is ministering to the needs of our fellow humans. It seems that faithfully attending Church, singing, praying and all the forms of modern "fasting" we practice on Sabbath to honor and worship God today really have little to do with true Sabbath keeping that is pleasing to God. (Indeed, they may rather help us ignore and avoid doing real good by taking up our Sabbath hours and keeping us away from those who have real needs.) Rather we ought to hit the streets and help those in need and leave the world a better place because the followers of Christ reached out and touched the unclean and brought healing and help to our neighbors. (See Luke 10:29-37) True worship that is acceptable to God is all about how we relate to our fellow humans. (If you are going swimming on the Sabbath, how about taking a bunch of inner city kids with you and go to the beach?) My vote is for the good plummer who understood Jesus' command to love God by loving people and that showing God's love to people by doing good to them on the Sabbath is excellent Sabbath worship! I want you all to know that this study of Isaiah 58 a few months ago helped me to come to a decision about something I had been considering for some time. My good friend and cycling buddy had been trying to encourage me to do the AIDS Ride with him this summer on June 21-24. He is organizing an Adventist group of riders from Sligo Church a group which I have now joined. It is a fund raising ride and the leg we will participate in will be 330 miles from Raleigh, NC to Washington, DC. The money raised by the riders will go to help AIDS victims in a variety of ways. Each rider must get sponsors to raise a minimum of $2400. You notice that the ride goes from Thursday through Sunday. That Sabbath I will keep that Sabbath holy by getting on my bicycle and riding 100 miles or so to help raise some money to help in some way those suffering with AIDS. I will call that Sabbath a delight!
Tom
PS Anyone intersted in sponsoring me should feel free to send me an e-mail. I will be delighted to send you a pledge form and include you in my Sabbath do-gooders club!
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Re: Sabbath activities - nonessential
#33647
04/23/01 09:04 PM
04/23/01 09:04 PM
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Perhaps it would be a good idea to do a complete Bible Study on Sabbath activities and their respective consequences by looking at both sides of the coin where some resulted in punishment and others didn't. Here is one that comes to my mind with disasterous consequences: quote:
Numbers 15:32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.
The Bible doesn't tell us why he was gathering sticks on the Sabbath, however, we do see the results of this particular one. The LORD said that the man shall be surely put to death. Obviously, this man's activity on the Sabbath wasn't approved by the LORD. Are you saying, however, that it wasn't necessarily the activity but the reason for the activity that resulted in this man's death by stoning? __________________________
Psalms 119:165 "Great peace
have they which love thy law:
and nothing shall offend them." Daryl
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Re: Sabbath activities - nonessential
#33648
04/23/01 11:21 PM
04/23/01 11:21 PM
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OP
Full Member
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 132
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Your reference, Daryl, would lead me to be affirmed in my belief that why we do things is more important than the things we do. Christ referred to this type of thing when He asked the theologians about the occurrence when David and his "men" ate the holy bread. This was as much violating a command as the man violated the command not to gather sticks. Why was one killed and the other not? Was it because of motive? I don't know, and I don't know that we are given any definitive insight. But I cannot see any other difference, other than motive. Were future Kings above the law? If not, why did Christ "excuse" David's violation of the law?
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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