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1 - The Holy Scriptures #38547
07/22/00 01:12 AM
07/22/00 01:12 AM
Daryl  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,126
Nova Scotia, Canada
1. The Holy Scriptures
The Holy Scriptures, Old and New Testaments, are the written Word of God, given by divine inspiration through holy men of God who spoke and wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

In this Word, God has committed to man the knowledge necessary for salvation.

The Holy Scriptures are the infallible revelation of His will.

They are the standard of character, the test of experience, the authoritative revealer of doctrines, and the trustworthy record of God's acts in history.

(2 Peter 1:20, 21; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17; Ps. 119:105; Prov. 30:5, 6; Isa. 8:20; John 17:17; 1 Thess. 2:13; Heb. 4:12.)


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: 1 - The Holy Scriptures #38548
11/10/02 03:07 PM
11/10/02 03:07 PM
Daryl  Offline
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This tells me that the Bible is infallible.

What does infallible mean? That it doesn't contain any errors whatsoever? Is that what it means?

Re: 1 - The Holy Scriptures #38549
10/30/03 11:23 PM
10/30/03 11:23 PM
Will  Offline
Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
Hi Dary,
Here is what Infallible means, so you were right on track:
quote:

Pronunciation: (")in-'fa-l&-b&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Medieval Latin infallibilis, from Latin in- + Late Latin fallibilis fallible
Date: 15th century
1 : incapable of error : UNERRING
2 : not liable to mislead, deceive, or disappoint : CERTAIN
3 : incapable of error in defining doctrines touching faith or morals

God Bless,
Will

Re: 1 - The Holy Scriptures #38550
04/06/05 10:46 PM
04/06/05 10:46 PM
Davros  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,009
Ohio
I have a rather deep question that I believe belongs here, as I will be discussing the first belief.

Does the church still have this first belief as a belief? There are several things that would lead me to this question. First, I would like to look at some main points contained within this first chapter.

quote:
The Holy Scriptures, Old and New Testaments, are the written Word of God, given by divine inspiration through holy men of God who spoke and wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. In this Word, God has committed to man the knowledge necessary for salvation. The Holy Scriptures are the infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the test of experience, the authoritative revealer of doctrines, and the trustworthy record of God's acts in history.
This is the introduction paragraph. In it, it says "The Holy Scriptures are the infallible revelation of His will." Therefore, the scripture are believed to all be the will of God and not wrong in any way. The part that is most troubling to me is that the Adventist church tends to write things off a custom today. If all scripture is stating the will of God, how can it be culture? Beyond that thought, we must ask, does God's will change? According to Malachi 3:6,

quote:
"I the Lord do not change. So you descendants of Jacob have not been destroyed.
So if it were God's will during the Bible times, it must be God's will now.

Here is another point in the chapter,

quote:
The Biblical assertion that "all scripture is inspired by God" or "God-breathed," profitable and authoritative for moral and spiritual living leaves no question about divine guidance in the selection process. Whether the information cam form personal observation, oral or written sources, or direct revelation, it all came to the writer through the Holy Spirit's guidance. This guarantees the Bible's trustworthiness."
The Adventist belief should be that how the information was obtained is not of importance, it was the spirit that led the authors to write it.

With all this in mind, would we say that the current view of the GC or the NAD is not in line with the true Adventist belief? I received an e-mail today from the ministry department of the GC that stated most of the writings of Paul were based on customs and not relevant for today. Maybe it is that we need to change our beliefs? The last edition of the book was made in 1988; have the Adventist beliefs of the scriptures changed since then?

Re: 1 - The Holy Scriptures #38551
04/07/05 09:31 AM
04/07/05 09:31 AM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Dave, Is this letter private or could you quote appropriete parts of it to this thread as reference?

/Thomas

Re: 1 - The Holy Scriptures #38552
04/07/05 04:30 PM
04/07/05 04:30 PM
Davros  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,009
Ohio
I have no problem with posting it:

quote:
Dear Dave,



Thank you for your question. The debate on how and in what capacity women should be ordained as elders or pastors has been going on for a long time. We referred your question to the ministerial department here at the General Conference. Here is what they said.

“The Biblical principle is clear -- the local churches selected laity leaders under the direction of the Holy Spirit and set them apart for service as elders and deacons. These were both male and female in the Scriptures.

For example, in the original greek language, the titles given to some of these women leaders are the same as the titles for the apostles themselves.

Likewise, in the greek language there are not two words -- deacons or deaconesses. There is only one word - diakonos - used for both genders.

The ordination of women to ministry for the world wide church is an entirely separate issue from the ordination of local church leadership whether male or female. For polity reasons the Adventist church does not ordain women to the gospel ministry. However, we have clearly delineated that this is not a theological issue, but a ecclesiological issue of how we will organize and operate our denomination. Theology does not change; ecclesiology may change. Our prophet, Ellen White, advocated setting women apart for ministry by laying on of hands although when the General Conference voted to ordain her (and issued her "ordained minister credentials" which she carried for many years), she declined not because she didn't believe in the practice, but because she believed that the role of prophet was greater and more significant than the designated position of an ordained minister.

Regarding local church officers -- A local congregation may or may not choose to elect or ordain one gender to the offices of elder or deacon. However, a local congregation may not judge the motives or actions of a sister church who makes a different choice.”

We hope this answers your question. Please visit us again.

God bless,

The Let’s Talk Team

The section I bolded stood out to me. THe oponants of woman's ordination read many texts and EGW quotes at the 1995 GC sesson to support their view.

quote:
In the first of two presentations, Dr. P. Gerard Damsteegt, associate professor of theology, Seventh-day Adventist Theological Seminary, presented the theological case "against" the women's ordination. While affirming women's "equality of nature and worth before God" he suggested that women are "different in functional roles." He suggested that the Bible does not allow "spiritual headship" of women either in
the family or in the Church.

Dr. Damsteegt suggested that those who are "for" female ordination are departing from the traditional Adventist method of Scriptural interpretation. He explained that this proposal conflicts with three basic Bible doctrines, namely; the doctrine of the Church, the doctrine of Holy Scripture, and the doctrine of the unity of the Church.
From the 1995 GC session report

To claim the isse is only ecclesiological is iggnoring one side compleatly. Beyond that, it minimizez the writings of the Bible. This also makes the claim that what God wants is ever changing, and I find that quite troubleing.

quote:
Why can't a woman who feels a call to ministry be ordained?
God calls every believer--whether young or old, male or female--to participate and serve within His church. Scripture includes many stories of God placing women in positions of great authority and responsibility. Think, for instance, of the prophetesses named in the Old Testament: Miriam (Exodus 15:20), Deborah (Judges 4:4-16), and Huldah (2 Kings 22:14-20).
In the New Testament we have examples of women playing significant roles within the newly forming Christian community. Following His resurrection, Jesus chose to appear first to three women, and He gave them the responsibility of sharing this wonderful news with His grieving disciples. (Luke 24:3-10) Later, Paul refers to a woman as a "deacon" of the church in Cenchrea (Rom 16:1).
The extraordinary example of Ellen White’s ministry in the early years of the Adventist Church provides us with yet another example a woman entrusted by God with an important responsibility.
While there is no question about the value of the contribution of women, the issue of women and ordination is more complex. For Seventh-day Adventists, ordination to the gospel ministry means ordination to serve the entire world church anywhere the minister is called. Within many countries and cultures, women are excluded from exercising leadership, whether political, religious, or social.
The Adventist Church has placed a high value on unity and worldwide consensus on this issue, and at the 1990 General Conference in Session it voted that women would not be ordained to the gospel ministry in our denomination. The issue was revisited at the 1995 General Conference session and this approach was confirmed. Again, it was a matter of the global Adventist Church saying, in the interest of unity, "No--at least not now."
Dr. Angel Rodriquez, director of the Biblical Research Institute at the General Conference, writes that “the question of women's ordination is one the church is still discussing and only the work of the Spirit within the church could lead us to some consensus on that most difficult issue.” (Angel Manuel Rodríguez, Women’s Ministries and the Bible, Biblical Research Institute, June 2003.)
Why do some Adventist churches ordain female pastors?
In the few instances where this has happened, both the female pastors and the individual congregations have understood in advance that this is an ordination only for their local area and not ordination to the gospel ministry for the worldwide church organization. The more usual office to which both men and women have been ordained is that of "local church elder."
I understand that some countries have problems with women being ordained as pastors, but what I don't understand is why each country can't act independently on those subjects of ordaining pastors.
The Seventh-day Adventist Church is a worldwide community that embraces hundreds of different cultures, languages and ethnicities. In fact, the Adventist Church is one of the few Protestant organizations with a truly global structure. Many other denominations operate on a congregational basis, perhaps organized under a regional or national conference that provides only limited financial, doctrinal or organizational direction.
One practical advantage of this unified structure is that the Adventist Church is able to make better use of its resources; it can support a worldwide health, education and mission work that would be otherwise impossible. Our church places a high value on unity; we are a worldwide movement, bound together by our common beliefs, our shared mission, and our assurance in the soon return of our Lord.
It follows, then, that for Seventh-day Adventists, ordination to the gospel ministry means ordination to serve the entire world church anywhere the minister is called. For this reason, the church has sought worldwide consensus on the matter of women’s ordination. By vote of the General Conference in Session (1995), the Seventh-day Adventist Church determined that on this particular issue, there should be a global approach and that each division of the church structure would not be permitted to follow its own plan. In the interest of unity, the church said, “No--at least not now.”
What is the interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:12, "a woman must be silent?" Does this mean that women shouldn't preach?
If you want to take an in depth look at all that Paul is saying in 1 Timothy 2:12 it may be worth getting hold of a good commentary study. But let me just touch on some main points. First, the text clearly does not mean that women are forbidden to preach or teach, because we have examples to the contrary from Jesus, Himself, and from the early Christian church as well as our own church history. The situation that is being described by Paul is of behavior within a specific cultural context. In that culture, a woman speaking publicly in a worship setting would cause disgrace within the church, and cause others in the general community to view the church as scandalous.
Let’s look at some examples of women who have been entrusted by God to deliver spiritual messages to their faith communities.
The first public evangelist was the Woman at the Well (John 4)who preached the gospel message to her entire city (Samaria).
The first public proclamation of the resurrection was by Mary Magdalene (Mark 16:9-11) whom Jesus instructed to inform to the other disciples of His resurrection. Later Jesus rebuked the disciples (Mark 16:14) because they had refused to believe the message.
The early church utilized women in positions of teaching, preaching, and church leadership: For example, Phoebe was greeted as a fellow apostle by the Apostle Paul, Priscilla taught the evangelist Apollos and, contrary to custom, she was listed first before her husband Aquilla, Lydia was the leader of the congregation which was established in her own home.
The Seventh-day Adventist Church was co-founded by Ellen G. White who often preached, counseled, and corrected "the brethren."
From the GC Let's Talk wep site


Re: 1 - The Holy Scriptures #38553
04/09/05 07:11 PM
04/09/05 07:11 PM
Daryl  Offline
OP
Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,126
Nova Scotia, Canada
As there are already other topics on women's ordination, I don't want this to develop in yet still another women's ordination topic, therefore, let us let what has been posted serve as an example only. Other different examples will also be acceptable.

The issue isn't whether the Bible is not infallible, but that our interpretations are not infallible. In other words, it is our interpretations that are fallible, whereas the Bible remains infallible in accordance to the #1 of the fundamental beliefs of the SDA Church.

The question then is this: Is the SDA Church infallible in its interpretation of the infallible Bible?

Re: 1 - The Holy Scriptures #38554
04/10/05 12:20 AM
04/10/05 12:20 AM
Davros  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,009
Ohio
As the leadership of the SDA church is made of men, no, they are not infallable.

Re: 1 - The Holy Scriptures #38555
04/10/05 12:30 AM
04/10/05 12:30 AM
Davros  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,009
Ohio
My quoting is not intended to be entierly about WO. It is only one example of how we have stated our beliefe and then make an exeption to it.

Re: 1 - The Holy Scriptures #38556
04/10/05 12:37 AM
04/10/05 12:37 AM
Daryl  Offline
OP
Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,126
Nova Scotia, Canada
Examples are OK. smile

I am only concerned about any disgression from the topic as a result of any of those examples.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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