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19 - The Sabbath #38797
10/09/00 10:00 PM
10/09/00 10:00 PM
Daryl  Offline
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19. The Sabbath

The beneficent Creator, after the six days of Creation, rested on the seventh day and instituted the Sabbath for all people as a memorial of Creation.

The fourth commandment of God's unchangeable law requires the observance of this Seventh-day Sabbath as the day of rest, worship, and ministry in harmony with the teaching and practice of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath.

The Sabbath is a day of delightful communion with God and one another. It is a symbol of our redemption in Christ, a sign of our sanctification, a token of our allegiance, and a foretaste of our eternal future in God's kingdom.

The Sabbath is God's perpetual sign of His eternal covenant between Him and His people.
Joyful observance of this holy time from evening to evening, sunset to sunset, is a celebration of God's creative and redemptive acts.

(Gen. 2:13; Ex. 20:811; Luke 4:16; Isa. 56:5, 6; 58:13, 14; Matt. 12:112; Ex. 31:1317; Eze. 20:12, 20; Deut. 5:1215; Heb. 4:111; Lev. 23:32; Mark 1:32.)


Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Daryl] #131400
03/04/11 01:02 AM
03/04/11 01:02 AM
cephalopod  Offline
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Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: cephalopod] #131431
03/04/11 10:28 PM
03/04/11 10:28 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Ceph, do you observe a different 7th day Sabbath than the rest of us?

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Mountain Man] #131441
03/05/11 01:37 AM
03/05/11 01:37 AM
Daryl  Offline
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Intro
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TW5EakBwq4c&feature=player_embedded#at=528

There isn't any doubt in my mind that the Sabbath is the 7th day of the week, which is what the English language refers to as Saturday. In many other languages, that same day is called Sabbath in their respective languages.

Here are some examples below:

Saturday in English is Sábado in both Spanish and Portuguese and Sabato in Italian.

The same word in Greek is Σάββατο for both Saturday and Sabbath.
The same word in Hebrew is שבת for both Saturday and Sabbath.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Mountain Man] #131442
03/05/11 01:59 AM
03/05/11 01:59 AM
Daryl  Offline
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I would also be interested in his answer to your question.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Ceph, do you observe a different 7th day Sabbath than the rest of us?


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Daryl] #131443
03/05/11 02:03 AM
03/05/11 02:03 AM
Daryl  Offline
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I watched and listened to parts 1 and 2.

As the Julian calendar was being used in the time of Christ, if Christ's chosen people of Israel were observing the Sabbath on the wrong day, He would have said something, or wouldn't have observed that day with them. Surely His disciples would have known about it too.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Daryl] #131444
03/05/11 02:04 AM
03/05/11 02:04 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The weekly cycle of seven literal days, six for labor, and the seventh for rest, which has been preserved and brought down through Bible history, originated in the great facts of the first seven days. {LHU 52.2}
When God spake His law with an audible voice from Sinai, He introduced the Sabbath by saying, "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy." He then declares definitely what shall be done on the six days, and what shall not be done on the seventh. He then, in giving the reason for thus observing the week, points them back to His example on the first seven days of time. "For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it." {LHU 52.3}

Weeks are not based on the moon. They are not based on the sun. They are not based on any of the planets, despite the fact that the days are named after them in modern language. The week is not based on anything except the Creation tradition itself.
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
(Exodus 20:8-11). Seven Literal Days.--The weekly cycle of seven literal days, six for labor, and the seventh for rest, which has been preserved and brought down through Bible history, originated in the great fact of the first seven days (3SG 90). {1BC 1081.5}

The first week, in which God performed the work of creation in six days and rested on the seventh day, was just like every other week. The great God, in his days of creation and day of rest, measured off the first cycle as a sample for successive weeks till the close of time.... The weekly cycle of seven literal days, six for labor and the seventh for rest, which has been preserved and brought down through Bible history, originated in the great facts of the first seven days. {ST, March 20, 1879 par. 1}

If one believes Mrs. White, the weekly cycle has been preserved. If one believes the Bible, the Sabbath has always been the seventh day of the week. There was never an association between the weekly Sabbath and the moon, for the moon has no connection to the week.

There were other sabbaths given in the Levitical system apart from the weekly Sabbath. This is why we have the term "high sabbath," for though the weekly Sabbath never changed in its regular occurrence of once every seven days, the other sabbaths were based on times that included the moon, the harvest, etc. Occasionally, one of these festival sabbaths would land on a weekly Sabbath, and this was called a "high Sabbath." It is my understanding that it was just such a Sabbath at the Passover when Christ died. (See John 19:31 and {DA 774.2}.)

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Green Cochoa] #131457
03/05/11 07:40 PM
03/05/11 07:40 PM
cephalopod  Offline
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It is impossible to have the crucifixion coincide with a Gregorian Friday at the Jewish Passover in 31 A.D.
...Using the Gregorian Calendar.

100% not possible Green Cochoa.

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Daryl] #131458
03/05/11 07:42 PM
03/05/11 07:42 PM
cephalopod  Offline
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The Julian Calendar was not universal in Rome, it was the primary calendar of the Senate ONLY.

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Green Cochoa] #131459
03/05/11 07:50 PM
03/05/11 07:50 PM
cephalopod  Offline
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True, the weekly cycle is 7 days - it has always been 7 days...
...6 days for work to be done followed by the 7th day Sabbath.
...I'm in full agreement with that.

What's not supported in Scripture is a "continous cycle" of 7 day weeks...
...That's what I'm saying.
...And the Sanctuary Truth confirms that as obviously as night follows the day.

Originally Posted By: Eze 46:1

Thus saith the Lord GOD; The gate of the inner court that looketh toward the east shall be shut the six working days; but on the sabbath it shall be opened, and in the day of the new moon it shall be opened.

And the prince shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate without, and shall stand by the post of the gate, and the priests shall prepare his burnt offering and his peace offerings, and he shall worship at the threshold of the gate: then he shall go forth; but the gate shall not be shut until the evening.

Likewise the people of the land shall worship at the door of this gate before the LORD in the sabbaths and in the new moons


The six working days do not include a "Sabbath" OR "New Moon day"...
...Simply because the gates of the inner court would NEVER be open on one of the 6 working days.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVrk-PpKIEA&feature=related



Last edited by cephalopod; 03/05/11 08:54 PM.
Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Daryl] #131460
03/05/11 08:03 PM
03/05/11 08:03 PM
cephalopod  Offline
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Many SDA's have accepted the present truth of the Lunisolar Sabbath...
...The facts of our Sanctuary Truth confirmed by Sister White.
...Leave zero doubt as to this calendation.
...It is the ONLY way possible for Jesus to have died on the Cross at the Jewish Passover in 31 A.D.

I would urge watching the series of videos up to at least part 5 with your Bible open and follow along...
...It's impossible to duplicate what's in the Bible with the Gregorian.

Last edited by cephalopod; 03/05/11 08:05 PM.
Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: cephalopod] #131465
03/06/11 02:46 AM
03/06/11 02:46 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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I've been studying this a bit, and it does appear from some people's reckoning that the Sabbath coincided with Passover (e.g. a "high Sabbath") in the years 30 and 33 AD. Having begun looking at the evidence, I'm beginning to wonder if our traditional reckoning of AD 31 is slightly off, and it should be AD 30 instead. I have tried searching for any mention of the year AD 31 in Mrs. White's writings, and so far have come up empty.

However, the weekly Sabbath was never changed in the Gregorian calendar. It has always been the seventh day of the week.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Green Cochoa] #131469
03/06/11 05:31 AM
03/06/11 05:31 AM
cephalopod  Offline
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Sister White confirmed that Jesus died in 31 A.D. on page 327 of the Great Controversy.

It's true that a Passover coinciding with a Gregorian Friday is not possible within the Gregorian Calendar for 31 A.D....
...However without a 31 A.D. Passover death for Christ the Sanctuary Doctrine falls apart.
...It's also true that there was not a loss of days between the Julian and Gregorian calendar systems.

33 A.D. is the date most scholars claim simply because the Passover that year allowed for a Gregorian Friday...
...As well as massive astronomical events.
...Which took place on that Friday as well as a massive earthquake.
...Backing up 33 years there was also massive events in the stars.
...As well as 9 months prior to that.


I ordered the following movie and then purchased the software...
...Would it not be for the Prophetic assurance of Sister White.
...I would be forced to believe Jesus died in 33 A.D.
...There is just too much evidence for it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5eybnbrO_M

If you have been looking into this you may have already read the 12 points or facts from the following site.

http://www.4angelspublications.com/pdf/12_Criteria.pdf


Last edited by cephalopod; 03/06/11 05:55 AM.
Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: cephalopod] #131470
03/06/11 06:24 AM
03/06/11 06:24 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Thank you. I thought she did say something about AD 31 somewhere, but could not find it. However, I'm still not clear on it, even from her statement. It's not that I doubt the veracity of what she says, it's just that it may be open to interpretation. For instance, she gives the year of Jesus' baptism (AD 27) and the year that finished that seventieth week (AD 34) as well, and Christ was to have died in the middle of that week. But the middle comes after three and a half years.

27 + 3.5 = 30.5
30.5 + 3.5 = 34

I have seen some years in history given in the form of 30/31. Could it be that the 31 is rounded up from 30.5, but that the actual year was somewhat in between or a cross of these two years? I am not much of a historian to understand all of this calendar stuff, but I know enough math to see easily that 27 -> 31 -> 34 would be first adding four years, and next only three. However, Christ was to have been crucified right in the middle, or 3.5 years into that "week." So was it actually AD 30, but part way into the year such that the Jews (who never rounded down but always up) would have rounded it up?

This all seems so complicated.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Green Cochoa] #131473
03/06/11 02:48 PM
03/06/11 02:48 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Ceph, do you observe the Sabbath on the same 7th day of the week the rest of us do?

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Mountain Man] #131475
03/06/11 03:09 PM
03/06/11 03:09 PM
J
johannes  Offline
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Sydney NSW Australia
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Ceph, do you observe the Sabbath on the same 7th day of the week the rest of us do?

wave Hi Mountain Man,

A move in Australia to confuse people which day is the seventh day Sabbath, are printed calendars starting the week on a monday (the Second Day of the week.)

God bless,

shocked johannes.



Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Green Cochoa] #131478
03/06/11 04:08 PM
03/06/11 04:08 PM
cephalopod  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa

Thank you. I thought she did say something about AD 31 somewhere, but could not find it. However, I'm still not clear on it, even from her statement. It's not that I doubt the veracity of what she says, it's just that it may be open to interpretation. For instance, she gives the year of Jesus' baptism (AD 27) and the year that finished that seventieth week (AD 34) as well, and Christ was to have died in the middle of that week. But the middle comes after three and a half years.

27 + 3.5 = 30.5
30.5 + 3.5 = 34


From the William Miller & Incarnation of Elijah time chart Sister White confirmed...
...The time hack for that period goes from 27 - 34 A.D.
...A period of 7 years / days = one week / day per year.
...3.5 days = 3.5 years counting from 27 A.D. / the line between the Old and New Covenants
...3.5 years results in a 31 A.D. Passover death for Christ.
...The Sanctuary Truth rests totally on that.

The 490 days / years terminated in 34 A.D....
...With the death of Stephen ( the 1st Martyr since Michael )

Remember, the calendation used by Incarnation of Elijah was not the Gregorian or Julisan...
...Incarnation of Elijah discovered calendation allowed for 3.5 years starting at 27 A.D.
...To reach Nisan 14/15 of 31 A.D.

Last edited by cephalopod; 03/06/11 04:17 PM.
Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Mountain Man] #131479
03/06/11 04:13 PM
03/06/11 04:13 PM
cephalopod  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

Ceph, do you observe the Sabbath on the same 7th day of the week the rest of us do?


At times I certainly do.

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: johannes] #131480
03/06/11 04:20 PM
03/06/11 04:20 PM
cephalopod  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Johannes

A move in Australia to confuse people which day is the seventh day Sabbath, are printed calendars starting the week on a monday (the Second Day of the week.)


I was unaware a group of SDA's suggesting lunar sabbaths exists in Austrailia...
...Do you have information on them, the size of the body, etc?

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: cephalopod] #131481
03/06/11 04:26 PM
03/06/11 04:26 PM
cephalopod  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa

Christ was to have been crucified right in the middle, or 3.5 years into that "week." So was it actually AD 30, but part way into the year such that the Jews (who never rounded down but always up) would have rounded it up?

This all seems so complicated.


Forget about the Gregorian calendar when looking at this subject...
...Use the calendar Incarnation of Elijah used that Sister White confirmed.
...It exactly lines up.

The problem is thinking in the terms of the Gregorian, once you see how simple the lunisolar calendar is...
...And follow it through the early SDA time prophecy chart.
...And read Sister's White's confirmation of it. I assure you, you will get it.

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: cephalopod] #131491
03/07/11 02:21 PM
03/07/11 02:21 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: cephalopod
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

Ceph, do you observe the Sabbath on the same 7th day of the week the rest of us do?

At times I certainly do.

Does that mean all other times are the wrong 7th day Sabbath?

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Mountain Man] #131501
03/07/11 06:04 PM
03/07/11 06:04 PM
cephalopod  Offline
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It certainly "could" mean that Mountain Man. I'm still going through an in-depth study of this thing and am convinced that up through the Old Testament times this is exactly how the calendar operated - my problem is the secular historical quotes in and around the fall of Jerusalem which ( from the Roman point of view ) held that the Jews observed the day of Saturn. There are other historical quotes from people at that time outside the Jewish faith that stated that the Jews calculated the 7th day Sabbath from the inception of the new moon.

There is no doubt that the Bible said the day of the New Moon was NOT one of the 6 work days yet it also said it was NOT a Sabbath.

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: cephalopod] #131508
03/07/11 09:04 PM
03/07/11 09:04 PM
Will  Offline
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I'm thinking of looking up a local Synagogue and asking the Rabbi if the Saturday as we know it is truly the 7th day or has that time been lost due to calendar changes.

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Will] #131517
03/07/11 11:43 PM
03/07/11 11:43 PM
cephalopod  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Will
I'm thinking of looking up a local Synagogue and asking the Rabbi if the Saturday as we know it is truly the 7th day or has that time been lost due to calendar changes.


That's a great idea and I would urge you to do it...
...I did.

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: cephalopod] #131529
03/08/11 03:46 AM
03/08/11 03:46 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Ceph, thank you.

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Will] #131562
03/08/11 09:32 PM
03/08/11 09:32 PM
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Harold Fair  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Will
I'm thinking of looking up a local Synagogue and asking the Rabbi if the Saturday as we know it is truly the 7th day or has that time been lost due to calendar changes.

I have found that a good calandar that counts up to seven is good enough. The seventh day is the Sabbath.


Harold T.
Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Harold Fair] #131563
03/08/11 11:44 PM
03/08/11 11:44 PM
Daryl  Offline
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I also stand by the fact that Christ being the One who created the world and instituted the Sabbath knew what day was the 7th Day Sabbath. There isn't any evidence of any dispute by Christ of any obervance of the wrong day by the religious leadership of that time.

It also seems to me that it was only the Ceremonial Sabbaths that were based on New Moons, etc.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Daryl] #131564
03/09/11 12:36 AM
03/09/11 12:36 AM
Daryl  Offline
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Further to my previous post I am quoting the following that I read elsewhere:

God is not a slave to the calendar. He was there when He created the earth.

He does not need the names of the days of the week, nor does He need a specific calendar. He knows what day the Sabbath is and was.

He did not need to share any of that with EGW.

The calendar we have today in the USA is not an abomination.

The seventh day of the week remains the same seventh day that God is using so that there will be no disharmony.

You can trust Jesus to know what He is doing.

6000 years of Sabbaths is not too big a math problem for God.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: cephalopod] #131565
03/09/11 01:12 AM
03/09/11 01:12 AM
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Originally Posted By: cephalopod
Originally Posted By: Johannes

A move in Australia to confuse people which day is the seventh day Sabbath, are printed calendars starting the week on a monday (the Second Day of the week.)


I was unaware a group of SDA's suggesting lunar sabbaths exists in Australia...
...Do you have information on them, the size of the body, etc?


wave Hi cephalopod,
The calendars i do not like are business calendars. Plus a few freebies from Town Councils. . . . or TAFE. In these phony calendars, the weeks start on First Day and run thru to First Day (as the seventh day) in these false calendars. caution frown So that if you are counting the days , sunday appears to be the seventh day. caution shocked So they are very deceptive. But i find if i go in personally and complain, or write them a courteous letter, some of them revert back to Sunday to Saturday calendation. . . . i think we should pray for mercy that calendation remains stable, so that folk can easily, still find out the sabbath Truth for themselves, by reading their own bibles.

You can explain lunar sabbaths to me? if you like, Cephalopod. i think we get an extra sabbath on the new earth. However how would this bode any changes whatsoever in the normal weekly sabbath? As this has continued unchanged since Creation, to the present day. Evidenced by the same day being called "sabbath" in the majority of ethnic languages . . . . And Yiddish people, even under persecution, apparently have kept sabbath from Jesus' time til today. I do not know personally, but neither do i know my birthday unless i trust my Mom:~

First posted by Isaiah. ~see Isaiah 66:23.
Quote:
And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD,
i think a few individual isolated sabbath-keepers might follow some of the Yiddish feast days (eg., in Buderim Qld.) but not heard of any named group that does over here, Cephalopod. Sorry.

So far as i know, the folk who follow Passover (for "Ordinances" or Lord's Supper), still rest on the same weekly Sabbath like clockwork. The saturday Sabbath. Their Feast Days are only used, 'cos they are sick to death of easter, Christmas etc, as these are obviously pagan festivals; tied rigidly to Constantine and the persecutions flowing from his sunday law. . . .

God bless,

smile johannes.


Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: johannes] #131568
03/09/11 03:02 AM
03/09/11 03:02 AM
cephalopod  Offline
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A)
"And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt saying, This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you". Exodus 12,1

B)
And Moses wrote their goings out according to their journeys by the commandment of the LORD: and these are their journeys according to their goings out. And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow after the passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians.

Counting from the "New Moon", Passover the 14th is ALWAYS on the 6th "day" of the week. In the above Scripture the Children of Israel left Eqypt "on the morrow" or the next day after Passover.

New Moon Day (1), day 2, day 3, day 4, day 5, day 6, day 7, day 8 ( Sabbath day ), day 9, day 10, day 11, day 12, day 13, day 14 ( 6th day of the week ), day 15 ( Sabbath day ).

Day 1 (New Moon) and Day 14 (Passover) have been identified. We know from Deut 16,1 that God brought the Children out of Egypt "by night" the day after the Passover. We know that the New Moon day is the first day of the first month of the first year because God commanded the Hebrews to keep the Passover Lamb up to the 14th day of the first month then to kill it.

If you go back and look at the "simple math" you will see that the 15th day, by default, is the Sabbath. Counting back 7 days identifies the 8th day as also a Sabbath. Day 1 can't be the Sabbath because it's the first day, of the first month of the first year and there is never a time where the New Moon day is the Sabbath, it's impossible. Counting forward from the 15th day we can identify the 22nd and 29th day as Sabbath days as well. This is the first Biblical month. The second month is laid out identical.

On the 15th Day of the Second month of the Exodus from Egypt the Children complained to Moses. Notice what happens. God tells Moses on the 15th Day that He will rain bread from heaven and test the Children to see if they will walk in His law or not.

On Day 15 God instructs Moses what to instruct the Children. If you read Exodus 16 you will see on the evening of the "15th day of the month" God caused quail to blow into the camp of the Children of Israel and the next morning manna started to fall. Day 15 = The Sabbath, plus 16th day (1st day of manna), 17th day (2nd day of Manna), 18th day (3rd day of Manna), 19th day (4th day of Manna), 20th day (5th day of manna), 21st day (6th day of Manna) whereas the Children are to gather twice as much manna because on the 22 day there will be no manna because that day is the Sabbath day. The math works out the same way as it did from the Exodus of Egypt with the Sabbath being on the 8th, 15th, 22nd and 29th day from the New Moon. That's two months in a row wereas the Sabbaths were on the identical days of the same Lunar Calendar. Impossible to duplicate on a Gregorian calendar. If the 22nd was the Sabbath OF that month simply subtract 7 days to see where the PREVIOUS sabbath fell - it fell on the 15th!

It becomes painfully obvious that if the 22nd day of the second month is the Sabbath one simply needs to count back 7 days from the 22nd to determine that the Sabbath "would have been" on the 15th day of the second month - the very same day that God waited until "the evening" to blow in quail. If we count back 7 days from day 15 we end up at the 8th day ( counting from the New Moon ).

We are not going to stop at two months, so let's continue to "the third month".

"In the third month, when the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai". Exodus 19,1

That's two months in a row and I've not been able to find anyone who can duplicate that on a Gregorian Calendar in ANY two back to back months in ANY YEAR.

This is just a glimps of what there is on this subject. After the Children were done with their 40 years the Bible again proves that they were still operating under the same lunisolar calendar. Anyone is welcome to correct my math.

Last edited by cephalopod; 03/09/11 03:06 AM.
Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: cephalopod] #131573
03/09/11 03:34 AM
03/09/11 03:34 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Cephalopod,

Does the commandment in your Bible read something like this?

"For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the fifteenth day, wherefore the LORD blessed the fifteenth day and hallowed it."

Perhaps your textbook says something like this, but my Bible says nothing of the sort. wink

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Green Cochoa] #131581
03/09/11 06:49 AM
03/09/11 06:49 AM
cephalopod  Offline
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Is that seriously your answer to my last post?

If month 1 of the new year started out on day 1 and the Sabbath was said to fall on the 22nd day of that month"...
...And the next month the Sabbath just happened to fall on the exact same days as they did the previous month.
...What does that tell you?

What it tells me is that IF the Sabbath was on the 22nd day of THAT month....
...Then I know by default EVERY Sabbath in THAT month.
...22 - 7 = 15th day of that month was a Sabbath.
...15 - 7 = 8th day of that month was a Sabbath.
...22 + 7 = 29th day of that month was a Sabbath.

Duplicate two back to back months on a Gregorian or Julian Calendar where that is possible...
...Or show me where I made a mistake in reading the Bible.


Last edited by cephalopod; 03/09/11 06:53 AM.
Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Green Cochoa] #131583
03/09/11 07:07 AM
03/09/11 07:07 AM
cephalopod  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Cephalopod,

Does the commandment in your Bible read something like this?

"For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the fifteenth day, wherefore the LORD blessed the fifteenth day and hallowed it."

Perhaps your textbook says something like this, but my Bible says nothing of the sort. wink

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


The Bibles I have said that there are 6 working days to be followed by a 7th day Sabbath....
...The same Bible says that the day of the New Moon is NOT one of the 6 working days.

Originally Posted By: Eze 46:1

Thus saith the Lord GOD; The gate of the inner court that looketh toward the east shall be shut the six working days; but on the sabbath it shall be opened, AND in the day of the new moon it shall be opened.

And the prince shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate without, and shall stand by the post of the gate, and the priests shall prepare his burnt offering and his peace offerings, and he shall worship at the threshold of the gate: then he shall go forth; but the gate shall not be shut until the evening.

Likewise the people of the land shall worship at the door of this gate before the LORD in the sabbaths and in the new moons


Is the Sabbath one of the 6 working days? Well, if the Sabbath isn't then neither is the New Moon day.

Need more proof the New Moon day wasn't one of the 6 working days?

Originally Posted By: Amos 8:4

Hear this, O ye that swallow up the needy, even to make the poor of the land to fail,

Saying, When will the new moon be gone, that we may sell corn? and the sabbath, that we may set forth wheat, making the ephah small, and the shekel great, and falsifying the balances by deceit?

That we may buy the poor for silver, and the needy for a pair of shoes; yea, and sell the refuse of the wheat?


So, what do you think that means? These folks Amos is speaking of are wishing that the New Moon day will hurry up and get over...
...So they can SELL their products.
...Buying and selling to a merchant is WORK.
...And that text just said the C,O.I. were NOT working on New Moon day.

I'm not saying New Moon day was a Sabbath, I'm just saying according to the so called Bible it clearly wasn't a work day.



Last edited by cephalopod; 03/09/11 07:17 AM.
Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: cephalopod] #131587
03/09/11 09:47 AM
03/09/11 09:47 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Cephalopod,

Your reasoning assumes that there was only one cycle or set of sabbaths, and that all sabbaths were defined by the same math. That simply is not the case.

The weekly sabbath is the sabbath of the fourth commandment. There were other sabbaths, called "ceremonial sabbaths," and these are the sabbaths which were not defined by the week, but by other phenomena such as the moon. So in actual fact, you might see something like this:

(Lunar Days)
Day 2: Sabbath
Day 9: Sabbath
Day 15: Sabbath
Day 16: Sabbath
Day 23: Sabbath
etc.

That "double sabbath" was just a ceremonial sabbath which happened to fall on a Friday that year. The next year it might be a Sunday, a Wednesday, or whatever. Sometimes it would coincide with the seventh-day Sabbath, in which case you would have a "high Sabbath."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Green Cochoa] #131591
03/09/11 04:06 PM
03/09/11 04:06 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Ceph, the seven day cycle has followed week after week since creation. If we observe the same weekly cycle Jesus did we cannot go wrong.

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Green Cochoa] #131598
03/09/11 06:14 PM
03/09/11 06:14 PM
cephalopod  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Cephalopod,

Your reasoning assumes that there was only one cycle or set of sabbaths, and that all sabbaths were defined by the same math. That simply is not the case.


My premise is if two back to back months can be observed whereas the Sabbath landed on the same exact days of those two months....
...And this is impossible to duplicate on a Gregorian Calendar.
...It's established if "different math" fails to produce the same answer.
...The praxis is proven.

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa

The weekly sabbath is the sabbath of the fourth commandment. There were other sabbaths, called "ceremonial sabbaths," and these are the sabbaths which were not defined by the week, but by other phenomena such as the moon. So in actual fact, you might see something like this:


Yes, 'every' Passover coincided with a 14th / 15th Nisan....
...Because, just as in the 1st month we read about in Exodus.
...The new month started with day "1".

New Moon day ( day 1 ), 2nd day (1st working day), 3rd day (2nd working day), 4th day (3rd working day), 5th day (4th working day), 6th day (5th working day). 7th day (6th working day) & 8th day, which IS the 7th day that follows 6 working days.

The New Moon would be observed, the following day would be 'New Moon Day'....
...A day NO WORK was done ( see the Scripture I quoted ) 6 days for work followed by the "seventh day Sabbath". Ironically THIS is exactly how the C.O.I. marched around Jericho for 7 literal days w/out violating the Sabbath.

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa

(Lunar Days)
Day 2: Sabbath
Day 9: Sabbath
Day 15: Sabbath
Day 16: Sabbath
Day 23: Sabbath
etc.


That's NOT how the lunisolar calendar works according to the 1st two months of Exodus...

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa

That "double sabbath" was just a ceremonial sabbath which happened to fall on a Friday that year. The next year it might be a Sunday, a Wednesday, or whatever. Sometimes it would coincide with the seventh-day Sabbath, in which case you would have a "high Sabbath."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


I've bought the software which imposes the lunar calendar into the Gregorian....
...Using the Millerite / Incarnation of Elijah calendation which established the DOA on 22 October 1844.
...Passover for 31 A.D did NOT and COULD NOT coincide with a Gregorian Friday.
...Yet it DOES coincide with the 6th day of the week, 14 Nisan on a lunisolar Calendar.
...And without exception it does the same thing EVERY year.

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: cephalopod] #131607
03/09/11 07:11 PM
03/09/11 07:11 PM
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kland  Offline
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Cephalopod, I'm also having troubles with understanding your math. The only way it can make sense is if you are saying Sabbaths are not 7 days apart. Which would mean they are not the seventh day. It sounds like you suggest that there are 6 work days followed by a variable number of other days.

An interesting question would be, how does it fit in with creation week?

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: kland] #131613
03/09/11 08:10 PM
03/09/11 08:10 PM
cephalopod  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kland

Cephalopod, I'm also having troubles with understanding your math. The only way it can make sense is if you are saying Sabbaths are not 7 days apart. Which would mean they are not the seventh day. It sounds like you suggest that there are 6 work days followed by a variable number of other days.

An interesting question would be, how does it fit in with creation week?





That's a lunar calendar but NOT the Biblical lunisolar calendar...
...That calendar shows "conjunction" as "new moon".
...The calendar Moses used understood the 1st observed sliver of moon AFTER conjunction as "New Moon".
...If the New Moon sliver was observed on May 9 the following day would be "New Moon Day".

Look at the overlay of the lunisolar on the Gregorian.


Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: cephalopod] #131615
03/09/11 10:11 PM
03/09/11 10:11 PM
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wave Hi Cephalopod, If you find extra sabbaths that you enjoy, i do not see why that would effect me. shocked i get a blessing from the seventh-day sabbath, and i wish to continue doing so. i used to make a rule that if a six year old kid cannot understand a doctrine, it is not necessary for my salvation. When i was seven and eight years old, i enjoyed the story of the Image of Daniel Two, and the great rock striking it on the feet. When i was seven and eight years old, my Mom had read me from an Adventist Bible story book by Adelaide Bee Evans, called, EASY STEPS & MEN OF MIGHT. i am a little Vegemite with a very small brain!!!! i will read the bible passages coz i enjoy them, but so far you are way above my head, Cephalopod. Sorry mate.
God bless, smile johannes.

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: johannes] #131616
03/09/11 10:42 PM
03/09/11 10:42 PM
cephalopod  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Johannes

Hi Cephalopod, If you find extra sabbaths that you enjoy, i do not see why that would effect me. i get a blessing from the seventh-day sabbath, and i wish to continue doing so.


Let's turn that around a bit and pretend that I said that to you only exchanging Sunday for Sabbath...
...You were witnessing to me and I'm a Sunday keeper.
...Would you humm off into the sunset at peace with that answer?
...Or would you ask me to look at the evidence?


Originally Posted By: Johannes

if a six year old kid cannot understand a doctrine, it is not necessary for my salvation. When i was seven and eight years old, i enjoyed the story of the Image of Daniel Two, and the great rock striking it on the feet. When i was seven and eight years old, my Mom had read me from an Adventist Bible story book by Adelaide Bee Evans, called, EASY STEPS & MEN OF MIGHT. i am a little Vegemite with a very small brain!!!! i will read the bible passages coz i enjoy them, but so far you are way above my head, Cephalopod. Sorry mate.


That's just it - the Lunisolar calendar a 6 year old could understand.....
...It's a first grade concept.
...Contrasted with the rules of the Gregorian.

Just go back and read my summary of the first two months of the Exodus from Egypt...
...It's 8 + 7 math ONLY and I'm telling you it can't be duplicated on the Gregorian.
...Our denomination was up front about this YEARS ago!

Originally Posted By: Seventh-day Adventist Yearbook,July 1883

Those who disbelieve in the seventh-day Sabbath bring against it numerous objections, all of which are readily answered with the exception of ONE - THE CROSS. This is the GREAT, THE UNANSWERABLE OBJECTION TO THE BIBLE SABBATH


The reason it's unanswerable is simply because the calendar used to justify and support our 2300 day prophetic truth...
...PROVES that the Sabbath on Passover in 31 A.D. was NOT a Gregorian Saturday.
...This isn't a joke and simply saying I'm used to Saturn's day so that's good enough for me is hardly in keeping the the SDA search for truth.

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: cephalopod] #131619
03/09/11 11:45 PM
03/09/11 11:45 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Ceph, am I observing the same seven day weekly cycle Jesus did?

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: cephalopod] #131620
03/10/11 12:06 AM
03/10/11 12:06 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Cephalopod,

The math is utterly simple. The seventh day is the Sabbath. That is what the commandment says. There is no commandment in all of the Bible saying we should observe only the 15th day as the Sabbath. If such were true, we would have only one Sabbath per month.

God tells us the reason for the Sabbath in the commandment:
Originally Posted By: The Bible
For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

There is no mention here of a new moon. There is no mention of a special month or day of a month. The sabbath is the "seventh" day.

Throughout the Bible, the days of the week, except for the Sabbath, were nameless. They merely had numbers. In essence, the numbering went something like this:

1st day to the Sabbath
2nd day to the Sabbath
3rd day to the Sabbath
4th day to the Sabbath
5th day to the Sabbath
6th day to the Sabbath
SABBATH!

There was never an eighth day, a fifteenth, or so forth. Only seven days.

The problem we find, then, with any type of lunar calendar, is that the moon does not match up to a weekly cycle. In fact, the moon does not perfectly match any calendar times at all. The moon makes a full cycle once every 29.53059 days. This means that now and then some rounding must take place to "re-adjust" the lunar schedule to ordinary days. The moon neither matches a 30-day month evenly, nor does it match a 29-day month evenly. On the other hand, we have a 365-day year, which is divided into twelve months such that each month must have about 30.4 days in it. (This is why some of our months have 31 days.) The moon cannot properly determine a year.

So if you have a Sabbath as being always at a certain time of year, you have one of two things going on. Either a) the time specified may be in the winter now, but a few decades down the road it will come in the summertime, or b) an adjustment to the calendar must occur to correct the year's timing and keep the seasons in the same months.

Perhaps you can explain all this complex math to some of us in such simplicity as "It's 8 + 7 math ONLY."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: cephalopod] #131622
03/10/11 12:16 AM
03/10/11 12:16 AM
cephalopod  Offline
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Johannes, here is an example of what the calendar I've been talking about looks like...
...The new month "re-set" the weeks.
...Notice that there is still 6 work days followed immediately after by a 7th day Sabbath.


Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Green Cochoa] #131627
03/10/11 12:31 AM
03/10/11 12:31 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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THE Sabbath honoring Creation according to the Commandment is every seventh day. Simple.

There were other "sabbaths" that formed part of the ceremonial law, and not the moral law. Those sabbaths included:

  • The 14th day of the first month = Passover. (Lev. 23:5)
  • The 15th day of the first month = the feast of unleavened bread:
    the 1st day and the 7th day of this feast were both sabbaths. (Lev. 23:6-8)
  • The 50th day after the first Sabbath after the firstfruits. (Lev. 23:10-21)
  • The 1st day of the seventh month. (Lev. 23:24)
  • The 10th day of the seventh month. (Lev. 16:29-31; 23:27)
  • The 15th day of the seventh month. (Lev. 23:34-35, 39)
  • The 22nd day of the seventh month. (Lev. 23:36, 39)

Originally Posted By: The Bible
These are the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day: Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD. (Leviticus 23:37-38)

God is telling the Israelites in no uncertain terms that these particular "feasts" of the Lord are in addition to the regular Sabbaths (seventh day) of every week.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: cephalopod] #131644
03/10/11 03:06 PM
03/10/11 03:06 PM
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kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: cephalopod
Originally Posted By: Kland

Cephalopod, I'm also having troubles with understanding your math. The only way it can make sense is if you are saying Sabbaths are not 7 days apart. Which would mean they are not the seventh day. It sounds like you suggest that there are 6 work days followed by a variable number of other days.

An interesting question would be, how does it fit in with creation week?

That's a lunar calendar but NOT the Biblical lunisolar calendar...
...That calendar shows "conjunction" as "new moon".
...The calendar Moses used understood the 1st observed sliver of moon AFTER conjunction as "New Moon".
...If the New Moon sliver was observed on May 9 the following day would be "New Moon Day".

Look at the overlay of the lunisolar on the Gregorian.

I do not see how you answered my question. What you say doesn't appear to relate to the question nor makes sense. But try as much as I can, it sounds again like you are saying that there is at least one extra day which does not count (the blank moon). But saying it comes after the new moon well, wouldn't it come after the new moon the same number of days each time? So any objections to your math would still exist, just an off by one error.

The moon doesn't change, the sun (earth, actually) doesn't change. So, whether you call it lunar or lunisolar, it still has fixed points. One may be off a few days, but their objections would still hold true. Either there are seven days based upon the revolutions of the earth or it's not seven days. If it's seven "days" from the new moon, then it's the same every new moon. A moon's cycle is not an even multiple of seven days. Which would then bring into question what a "day" is defined as.

It is my opinion that you should make some simple and clear explanations or I'm with Johannes and would have a hard time believing God intended something so complex that it takes you many posts attempting to explain it.

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Mountain Man] #131648
03/10/11 03:59 PM
03/10/11 03:59 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Bump for Ceph.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Ceph, am I observing the same seven day weekly cycle Jesus did?

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: kland] #131658
03/10/11 07:11 PM
03/10/11 07:11 PM
cephalopod  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: cephalopod
Originally Posted By: Kland

Cephalopod, I'm also having troubles with understanding your math.


Have you looked at a Moon Phase Calendar for April, 31 A.D.?
...I'm thinking you would have larger problems than my math if you looked at one.

Originally Posted By: Kland

The only way it can make sense is if you are saying Sabbaths are not 7 days apart. Which would mean they are not the seventh day. It sounds like you suggest that there are 6 work days followed by a variable number of other days.


Simply put the calendar Moses was following did not have a continous cycle of 7 day weeks...
...The 7th day Sabbath always followed directly behind 6 working days.
...However the "new month" RE-SET the weeks.

The Exodus proves that New Moon re-set the count of days....
...It's the only way the Sabbath could have fallen on the 8th, 15th, 22nd & 29th days for three months in a row.
...If the Sabbath is identified to have fallen on the "22nd" day of the month.
...I can assure you it can be known what "other days of THAT" month the Sabbath also fell on.
...That is what I'm saying.

Past that our Denomination requires that Jesus died at Passover in 31 A.D...
...And Passover in 31 A.D. DID NOT include a Gregorian Friday.
...Any Moon phase calendar for that year will show you that.
...Perhaps you can point me toward a calendar which does?


Originally Posted By: Kland

An interesting question would be, how does it fit in with creation week?

That's a lunar calendar but NOT the Biblical lunisolar calendar...
...That calendar shows "conjunction" as "new moon".
...The calendar Moses used understood the 1st observed sliver of moon AFTER conjunction as "New Moon".
...If the New Moon sliver was observed on May 9 the following day would be "New Moon Day".

Look at the overlay of the lunisolar on the Gregorian.

I do not see how you answered my question. What you say doesn't appear to relate to the question nor makes sense. But try as much as I can, it sounds again like you are saying that there is at least one extra day which does not count (the blank moon). But saying it comes after the new moon well, wouldn't it come after the new moon the same number of days each time? So any objections to your math would still exist, just an off by one error.

The moon doesn't change, the sun (earth, actually) doesn't change. So, whether you call it lunar or lunisolar, it still has fixed points. One may be off a few days, but their objections would still hold true. Either there are seven days based upon the revolutions of the earth or it's not seven days. If it's seven "days" from the new moon, then it's the same every new moon. A moon's cycle is not an even multiple of seven days. Which would then bring into question what a "day" is defined as.

It is my opinion that you should make some simple and clear explanations or I'm with Johannes and would have a hard time believing God intended something so complex that it takes you many posts attempting to explain it.


You are right, the moon is 100% predictable so we can know what it looked like 2000 years ago as well as 2000 years in the future...
...Therefore if we want to know when Passover would have been in 31 A.D.
...We can simply plug the dates into a computer program.
...And see WHEN it was and overlay the Jewish lunar calendar over the Gregorian.

1st point,
Christ 'cut off' in the midst of the week...
...70 week prophecy of Daniel as stated by William Miller.

Originally Posted By: Sister White confirmation GC page 327

In the autumn of A.D. 27 Christ was baptized by John . . .“In the midst of the week He shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.” In A.D. 31, three and a half years after His baptism, our Lord was crucified


2nd point,
Specific season, 1st month of the Jewish year...

Originally Posted By: Sister White, GC 399 & PP 486

On the fourteenth day of the first Jewish month, the very day and month on which for fifteen long centuries the Passover lamb had been slain


3rd point,
14th day of the month.

Originally Posted By: Sister White GC 399

On the fourteenth day of the first Jewish month, the very day and month on which for fifteen long centuries the Passover lamb had been slain.


4th point,
Jesus died on the 6th day of the week.

Originally Posted By: Sister White DA 794

On the sixth day of the week they had seen their Master die


5th point,
Day of preparation.

Originally Posted By: Sister White DA 774

At the setting of the sun on the evening of the preparation day the trumpets sounded, signifying that the Sabbath had begun. The Passover was observed as it had been for centuries, while He to whom it pointed had been slain by wicked hands, and lay in Joseph‟s tomb. On the Sabbath the courts of the temple were filled with worshipers


6th Point.
..Full Moon Day, i.e. Passover Moon.

Originally Posted By: Ps 81:3

Blow the trumpet at the time of the New Moon, at the full moon, on our solemn feast day. For this is a statute for Israel, a law of the God of Jacob


Originally Posted By: Sister White confirmation DA685

In company with His disciples, the Saviour slowly made His way to the garden of Gethsemane. The Passover moon, broad and full, shone from a cloudless sky. The city of pilgrims‟ tents was hushed into silence


7th point,
Passover feast.

Originally Posted By: Sister White GC 399

“The slaying of the Passover lamb was a shadow of the death of Christ. Says Paul: “Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us.” 1 Cor. 5:7. . . . . These types were fulfilled, not only as to the event, but as to the time. On the fourteenth day of the first Jewish month, the very day and month on which for fifteen long centuries the Passover lamb had been slain, Christ, having eaten the Passover with His disciples, instituted that feast which was to commemorate His own death as “the Lamb of God, which takes away the sin of the world.”


There are several more points but this should be enough to get the idea....
...These points do not allow for a cross in April of 31 A.D. which included a Gregorian Friday.

Before I complete the rest of this post I'm going to ask for some help...
...How do I post files I have in my hard drive - I see how to post a picture at a URL but not to post pictures I have on my computer. I have all the calendars for the years in question - both lunar and Gregorian. I need to post them - it will help a bunch.

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: cephalopod] #131665
03/11/11 01:12 AM
03/11/11 01:12 AM
J
johannes  Offline
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Sydney NSW Australia
wave Hi Cephalopod,
i think your calculations are a very pretty thing, but how come all the nations that have the word Sabbath for a day of the week, in their own language, still have it on the same day all around the world, now? Then why do the Yiddish people (who also are aware of your Lunar-solar calendar) still worship on the same day i do, now? So how do we become so sure of ourselves that the Lunar-solar sabbath is not alongside and in addition to the Sabbath inaugurated at Creation; which i endeavour to keep?
Noah kept it. ~ First posted by the LORD.
Quote:
For yet seven days and i will cause it to rain upon the earth, forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that i have made will i destroy from off the face of the earth. . . . . And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.
Genesis 7:4 & 7:10. Noah counted the days of the Flood, so i think he would still know the days of the week, subsequent to arriving on the New Earth.
Jesus kept it. First posted by Mark. ~ Mark 1:21,
Quote:
And they went into Capernaum; and straightway on the sabbath day he entered into the synagogue, and taught.
So we are Okay up until the time of Christ. ~ And there are no gaps between Jesus' day and our day. Also my words are spoken in the well known context that Yiddish people observed High sabbaths in addition and outside of the regular weekly sabbaths ~~ that i still observe, dear Cephalopod. So why must you leap to the conclusion that the weekly sabbath of Creation, was not being observed alongside of; and in addition to, the extra-mural High Lunar-solar Sabbaths? As even the New Testament acknowledges High Sabbaths. First posted by John. ~ John 19:31.
Quote:
. . . .(for that sabbath day was an high day,) . . . .
So you are quite right, Cephalopod. All acknowledge there are High sabbaths. But how does that detract from my weekly sabbath that both Noah and me like to keep? Blessings, smile johannes.

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: cephalopod] #131669
03/11/11 02:59 AM
03/11/11 02:59 AM
J
johannes  Offline
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Sydney NSW Australia
First posted by cephalopod.
Quote:
. . . . . or would you ask me to look at the evidence?
First posted by cephalopod.
Quote:
The reason it is unanswerable is because the calendar used to support our 2300 day prophetic truth . . .
. . . . PROVES that the sabbath on Passover 31 A.D. was NOT a Gregorian Saturday.

wave Hi Cephalopod, Now i would be very grateful to see any early Adventist references to the Lunar~solar sabbath, Please. . . . Blessings, smile johannes.

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: johannes] #131675
03/11/11 05:22 AM
03/11/11 05:22 AM
cephalopod  Offline
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How can I attach files / pictures I have on my computer?

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: cephalopod] #131677
03/11/11 06:38 AM
03/11/11 06:38 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: cephalopod
How can I attach files / pictures I have on my computer?

Cephalopod,

It appears that uploaded file attachments are not enabled for this topic. In some topics, it is possible to upload attachments. If you do so for an image, it will appear at the bottom of your post. However, in this topic, the only way to add an image would be to enter a URL for one that is available somewhere online. (Or you could PM Daryl and ask for special permission.) You might try uploading your picture somewhere else, then linking to it here.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Green Cochoa] #131685
03/11/11 04:04 PM
03/11/11 04:04 PM
cephalopod  Offline
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If that could be done I believe those who doubt what I'm saying would see exactly where I'm coming from. Perhaps a link posted in this thread where I could upload the material so it could be seen by those interested in this topic?

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: cephalopod] #131689
03/11/11 05:10 PM
03/11/11 05:10 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Ceph, is there a reason you haven't addressed my question?

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Mountain Man] #131691
03/11/11 05:49 PM
03/11/11 05:49 PM
cephalopod  Offline
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The reason is you need to see it....
...Something I fully intend to do once I can start posting some facts.

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: cephalopod] #131693
03/11/11 07:17 PM
03/11/11 07:17 PM
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kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: cephalopod


There are several more points but this should be enough to get the idea....
Thanks for making lots of interesting points. Unfortunately, I still don't see any of them addresses my question.

Maybe your pictures will shed light, but something tells me it will only address questions I didn't ask. It is just my opinion, but it seems to me that you are unable to answer how many days are between one Sabbath and the next.

Are you having Sabbath problems at work?

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: kland] #131698
03/11/11 08:40 PM
03/11/11 08:40 PM
cephalopod  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: cephalopod


There are several more points but this should be enough to get the idea....
Thanks for making lots of interesting points. Unfortunately, I still don't see any of them addresses my question.

Maybe your pictures will shed light, but something tells me it will only address questions I didn't ask. It is just my opinion, but it seems to me that you are unable to answer how many days are between one Sabbath and the next.

Are you having Sabbath problems at work?


Oh, I guarantee that the pictures will so we are going to have to wait until a Mod or D.F. provides a means to post them...
...I've spent more then a little time and money on the research of this subject.
...And I'm more than certain it will be perfectly clear.

It would be nice if I could post the pictures up this weekend.

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: cephalopod] #131701
03/11/11 10:09 PM
03/11/11 10:09 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: cephalopod
...so we are going to have to wait until a Mod or D.F. provides a means to post them...

Cephalopod,

Moderators do not have ability to change forum functions. We can adjust posts and move or lock a topic, but beyond this, any change to the way the forum itself functions is beyond our entitlement. As I said before, you need to PM Daryl.

Even as a moderator, I would have to ask Daryl to post a picture or file in this topic. wink

You could, of course, upload your pictures to a website like Picasa, and then link to them in your post...

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Green Cochoa] #131706
03/11/11 11:16 PM
03/11/11 11:16 PM
cephalopod  Offline
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I will try that, thanks for the tip Green Cochoa...
..I will try picasa this weekend.
..You will need to be seated.

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: kland] #131710
03/11/11 11:52 PM
03/11/11 11:52 PM
cephalopod  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: cephalopod


There are several more points but this should be enough to get the idea....
Thanks for making lots of interesting points. Unfortunately, I still don't see any of them addresses my question.

Maybe your pictures will shed light, but something tells me it will only address questions I didn't ask. It is just my opinion, but it seems to me that you are unable to answer how many days are between one Sabbath and the next.

Are you having Sabbath problems at work?


Within the month the Sabbath is every "7th" day ( 6 days of work followed by the Sabbath )....
...The month re-sets the count of days so no, the Sabbath does not end up landing every "Saturday".
...This is what I intend to prove with the pictures of lunar calendars I've taken for the months in quesiton.

Last edited by cephalopod; 03/11/11 11:52 PM.
Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: cephalopod] #131731
03/12/11 04:30 PM
03/12/11 04:30 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: cephalopod
M: Ceph, is there a reason you haven't addressed my question?

C: The reason is you need to see it....
...Something I fully intend to do once I can start posting some facts.

The only fact I'm interested in right now is - Am I observing the same weekly cycle and seventh-day Sabbath Jesus did? Or, did things get messed up between then and now so that I am observing the wrong weekly cycle and seventh-day Sabbath?

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: cephalopod] #131733
03/12/11 04:45 PM
03/12/11 04:45 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: cephalopod
Johannes, here is an example of what the calendar I've been talking about looks like...
...The new month "re-set" the weeks.
...Notice that there is still 6 work days followed immediately after by a 7th day Sabbath.


Does this mean we are supposed to observe two seventh-day Sabbaths in a row in months with only 29 days?

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Mountain Man] #131740
03/12/11 09:57 PM
03/12/11 09:57 PM
cephalopod  Offline
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Well, I tried to do it and messed up the post so I deleted it...
..I'll try again.


Last edited by cephalopod; 03/13/11 12:49 AM.
Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: cephalopod] #131741
03/12/11 09:58 PM
03/12/11 09:58 PM
cephalopod  Offline
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I can see it didn't work very well...
..Would it be that difficult to allow picture posting here.
..Makes me wonder why it's not allowed in this thread.

Last edited by cephalopod; 03/12/11 10:00 PM.
Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: cephalopod] #131743
03/13/11 12:03 AM
03/13/11 12:03 AM
Daryl  Offline
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As I made some permission adjustments, try it again.

Originally Posted By: cephalopod
I can see it didn't work very well...
..Would it be that difficult to allow picture posting here.
..Makes me wonder why it's not allowed in this thread.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Daryl] #131747
03/13/11 12:45 AM
03/13/11 12:45 AM
cephalopod  Offline
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Thanks for trying Mr. Fawcet....
...I deleted sections of the post but wasn't able to attach anything from my hard drive.
...As the post was messed up I deleted it.

Last edited by cephalopod; 03/13/11 01:06 AM.
Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Mountain Man] #131749
03/13/11 01:26 AM
03/13/11 01:26 AM
J
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Sydney NSW Australia

wave Hi Cephalopod, my question is identical to Mountain Man's question here, Please. With the additional information needed on the reference made to Adventist Pioneer literature or sources. For example is there a Yearbook reference to the Lunar -solar sabbath. Blessings, smile johannes.

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Mountain Man] #131751
03/13/11 01:48 AM
03/13/11 01:48 AM
J
johannes  Offline
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Sydney NSW Australia
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: cephalopod
M: Ceph, is there a reason you haven't addressed my question?

C: The reason is you need to see it....
...Something I fully intend to do once I can start posting some facts.

The only fact I'm interested in right now is - Am I observing the same weekly cycle and seventh-day Sabbath Jesus did? Or, did things get messed up between then and now so that I am observing the wrong weekly cycle and seventh-day Sabbath?

wave Hi Mountain Man, Thank you for showing me a Lunar-solar calendar, first posted by Celaphopod? to illustrate Celaphopod's interesting discussion. Sorry !!! blush i did not at first notice it was courteously addressed to me. Thank you Mountain Man. Blessings, smile johannes.

wave Hi Cephalopod, My Question is the same as Mountain Man's excellent question here. Except in another Post to me, you mention Pioneer Adventist sources to the Lunar-solar calendar. Tying it in as essential for understanding the 2300 Day Prophecy. Can you please answer Mountain Man's question in his good Post quoted here. Then add your sources? Please Cephalopod. Blessings, smile johannes.

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: johannes] #131755
03/13/11 02:45 AM
03/13/11 02:45 AM
cephalopod  Offline
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Hi Johannes, this is going to have to wait until there is a solution for the pictures....
...I created a post but not all of the pictures would attach.
...Daryl F. made some changes but I was unable to attach my material.
...As the post I made was messed up I deleted it.

PM me your email address and I will start email you the data if ya can't wait....
...Can't blame you for being so excited - I thought I was going to have a heart attack when I was first going through this.

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: cephalopod] #131757
03/13/11 03:01 AM
03/13/11 03:01 AM
Daryl  Offline
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Did you try it as a new post?

Originally Posted By: cephalopod
Hi Johannes, this is going to have to wait until there is a solution for the pictures....
...I created a post but not all of the pictures would attach.
...Daryl F. made some changes but I was unable to attach my material.
...As the post I made was messed up I deleted it.

PM me your email address and I will start email you the data if ya can't wait....
...Can't blame you for being so excited - I thought I was going to have a heart attack when I was first going through this.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Daryl] #131767
03/13/11 06:33 AM
03/13/11 06:33 AM
cephalopod  Offline
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I tried to edit the one I already did...
...I'll try a new one tomorrow.

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: cephalopod] #131775
03/13/11 10:05 AM
03/13/11 10:05 AM
Will  Offline
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How about uploading it somewhere like imageshack or something, and just provide a link to it so people can click on it? smile
God Bless,
Will

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Will] #131781
03/13/11 05:23 PM
03/13/11 05:23 PM
cephalopod  Offline
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This is just a test, keeping fingers crossed.







Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: cephalopod] #131807
03/14/11 03:26 PM
03/14/11 03:26 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Ceph, what would prevent you from simply saying, Yes, we are observing the same weekly cycle and seventh-day Sabbath Jesus did? And, given the Lunar Calendar you posted above, isn't it obvious we would observe two seventh-day Sabbaths in a row in months with 29 days and two seventh-day Sabbaths in 72 hours the rest of the year?

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Mountain Man] #131832
03/15/11 01:25 PM
03/15/11 01:25 PM
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kland  Offline
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MM, I don't see how you conclude that from the chart you reposted because I thought the new moon was a no-man's land day. Though, I would agree that there are times when there are varying days between Sabbaths. 7*4 = 28. When you have 28 and 29 day months, There will never, if ever, be 7 days between Sabbaths on month transitions. Having days that don't count as days sound really odd to me.

It can be mapped onto a Julian calendar as Ceph said so by stating Sabbaths don't match up. By following this calendar idea, this would indicate that sometimes, you would be keeping the same Sabbath that Jesus did, but not very often. I'm sure there's some calculation you could make but there is a 7 day period which shifts each month which is thrown off another day by either the 29 or 30 days

One can call the days anything one wants, number them anything one wants, skip numbers, but as long as weekly cycle is not broken, the Sabbaths would be the same. However, if you say some days don't really count as days, the "weekly" cycle (which is no longer defined as 7 days) will shift.

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: kland] #131842
03/15/11 03:41 PM
03/15/11 03:41 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Kland, thank you for the information. I overlooked the non-day aspect of the New Moon day. Very strange indeed. Did Jesus observe non-days?

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: cephalopod] #153567
06/23/13 05:21 PM
06/23/13 05:21 PM
Daryl  Offline
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Upon coming across and reviewing this whole thread, I still can't figure why he couldn't load the jpg images.

They should have worked.

Maybe it is a problem with linking to their web site, however, if you right click on each image box and open up a new tab or window, it will show the actual image.
Originally Posted By: cephalopod

This is just a test, keeping fingers crossed.








In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Daryl] #153572
06/23/13 07:30 PM
06/23/13 07:30 PM
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Harold Fair  Offline
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I am curious. What does the moon have to do with the Sabbath?
There is one every seventh day. We only need the new moon to tell us when to go to the tree of life for our monthly diet.


Harold T.
Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Harold Fair] #153587
06/24/13 07:05 PM
06/24/13 07:05 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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You are right. The moon doesn't have anything to do with the seven-day cycle.

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Rosangela] #153637
06/25/13 11:21 PM
06/25/13 11:21 PM
Daryl  Offline
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There isn't any rhyme nor reason for the seven-day cycle, other than the fact that God created this world in six days and instituted the Sabbath on the seventh day.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Daryl] #153640
06/26/13 01:23 AM
06/26/13 01:23 AM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Daryl
There isn't any rhyme nor reason for the seven-day cycle, other than the fact that God created this world in six days and instituted the Sabbath on the seventh day.
Is the Sabbath arbitrary then?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: APL] #153642
06/26/13 01:46 AM
06/26/13 01:46 AM
Daryl  Offline
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Let me answer your question with another question.

Was forbidding Adam & Eve to eat from the tree in the midst of the Garden of Eden arbitrary?


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Daryl] #153645
06/26/13 02:12 AM
06/26/13 02:12 AM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Daryl
Let me answer your question with another question.

Was forbidding Adam & Eve to eat from the tree in the midst of the Garden of Eden arbitrary?
Absolutely not.

Is the Sabbath arbitrary?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: APL] #153656
06/26/13 12:28 PM
06/26/13 12:28 PM
Daryl  Offline
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Define arbitrary.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Daryl] #153658
06/26/13 01:35 PM
06/26/13 01:35 PM
APL  Offline
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Webster 1828 dictionary:
Arbitrary
ARBITRARY, a. [L. arbitrarious.]

1. Depending on will or discretion; not governed by any fixed rules; as, an arbitrary decision; an arbitrary punishment.

Arbitrary power is most easily established on the ruins of liberty abused to licentiousness.

2. Despotic; absolute in power; having no external control; as, an arbitrary prince or government.

Webster 2010
1. subject to individual will or judgment without restriction; contingent solely upon one's discretion: an arbitrary decision.
2. decided by a judge or arbiter rather than by a law or statute.
3. having unlimited power; uncontrolled or unrestricted by law; despotic: an arbitrary government.
4. capricious; unreasonable; unsupported: an arbitrary demand for payment.
5. Math. undetermined; not assigned a specific value: an arbitrary constant.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Daryl] #153660
06/26/13 02:16 PM
06/26/13 02:16 PM
Johann  Offline
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In his monumental work on the Sabbath, Sigve Tonstad deals with "arbitrary" in connection with the Sabbath as well as all of the commandments. If you consider Sabbath keeping as arbitrary or "a stern commandment" it "calls God's character into question" and this seems to be Luther's view, with little difference to the Roman Catholic view and it "calls God's character into question".

It is remarkable that when referring to the 10 commandments in Scripture they are termed a covenant. Any covenant is based on religious liberty and is not arbitrary.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Johann] #153699
06/28/13 01:37 AM
06/28/13 01:37 AM
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God instituted the seven day week at creation.

It is very plainly stated that in six days God created the heavens and the earth and rested the seventh day -- blessing and sanctifying it.

This had nothing to do with the moon -- the moon wasn't even created until the fourth day.

The seven day cycle was set in motion at creation by the work and blessing of God.
The world may have lost it in different places and times,
but it was given again at Sinai.
It is a memorial to creation. That is not "arbitrary" any more than your birthday is arbitrary, or your wedding anniversary.

Six days the manna fell, double on the sixth day, none on the seventh. I see absolutely nothing in scripture that speaks of an eight or nine day week at the end of every month.

Since 29.5 is not divisible by 7, it is impossible to have six days of work, followed by one day of rest in a consistent pattern.
So every fourth week the lunar calendar calls the 30th a "transition day" which somehow doesn't count as a week day, and the 1st is the "new moon day" which also somehow doesn't count.
But the reality is that from their Sabbath on the 29th till their next Sabbath on the 8th you do not have a seven day week.

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: cephalopod] #153700
06/28/13 03:10 AM
06/28/13 03:10 AM
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Since this is the most Biblical defense I could find on this thread I thought I would explore it and comment on it.

Originally Posted By: cephalopod
A)
"And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt saying, This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you". Exodus 12,1

B)
And Moses wrote their goings out according to their journeys by the commandment of the LORD: and these are their journeys according to their goings out. And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow after the passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians.


So what we have thus far is the knowledge that Israel marked their year by monthly segments -- these months were calculated by the moon.

But already, I see a Biblical reason why I can't accept that the seventh day Sabbath is the same as the festival special days.
The 8th, the 15th, the 22nd and the 29th are supposedly Sabbaths on the lunar calendar. But on the 15th of the first month we see here that the children of Israel were collecting money and other valuables from their Egyptian neighbors, packing it, and all their other belongings and starting a long journey.

According to the book of Nehemiah this is NOT Sabbath activity.
So I really do not think the 15th was a seventh day Sabbath that month.

Originally Posted By: cephalopod
Counting from the "New Moon", Passover the 14th is ALWAYS on the 6th "day" of the week. In the above Scripture the Children of Israel left Eqypt "on the morrow" or the next day after Passover.
New Moon Day (1), day 2, day 3, day 4, day 5, day 6, day 7, day 8 ( Sabbath day ), day 9, day 10, day 11, day 12, day 13, day 14 ( 6th day of the week ), day 15 ( Sabbath day ).

Day 1 (New Moon) and Day 14 (Passover) have been identified. We know from Deut 16,1 that God brought the Children out of Egypt "by night" the day after the Passover. We know that the New Moon day is the first day of the first month of the first year because God commanded the Hebrews to keep the Passover Lamb up to the 14th day of the first month then to kill it.

If you go back and look at the "simple math" you will see that the 15th day, by default, is the Sabbath. Counting back 7 days identifies the 8th day as also a Sabbath. Day 1 can't be the Sabbath because it's the first day, of the first month of the first year and there is never a time where the New Moon day is the Sabbath, it's impossible. Counting forward from the 15th day we can identify the 22nd and 29th day as Sabbath days as well. This is the first Biblical month. The second month is laid out identical.

How many assumptions are made in the above quote?
1) The first assumption is that New Moon and Sabbath can NEVER happen together. Why not?
Where is there any Biblical proof for that assumption. Just because the gates were opened on New Moon and Sabbath days, does not at all prove this.
Since most of the time the new moon did not occur on the 7th day Sabbath, the comment is made that on New Moons the gates are also opened, but it doesn't mean the New Moon never fell on a Sabbath.

2) The second assumption is that the new week must begin on the day following the New Moon. Why?

3) The third assumption is that the festival special days are the same as the 7th day Sabbath.

One reason why I think they are NOT the same, is found in Lev. 23, and the feast of weeks. (The word weeks is actual sevens)

From the morning after the Sabbath they were to count 7 Sabbaths, unto the morning after the Seventh Sabbath which is day 50.
Yet, if the lunar calendar were followed,
1)22, 2)29 3)8th 4)15, 5)22, 6)29,7)8th (7+7+9+7+7+7+9) it would be the 53rd or 54th day. And not the day after seven sevens.




Quote:
On the 15th Day of the Second month of the Exodus from Egypt the Children complained to Moses. Notice what happens. God tells Moses on the 15th Day that He will rain bread from heaven and test the Children to see if they will walk in His law or not.

On Day 15 God instructs Moses what to instruct the Children.

Ex. 16:1 "and all the congregation of the children of Israel came unto the wilderness of Sin, which [is] between Elim and Sinai on the fifteenth day of the second month after their departing out of the land of Egypt."

So actually it says they ARRIVED in the desert of Sin, on the 15th day. Again this does not sound like it was the Sabbath. It doesn't say they arrived on the 14th and rested on the 15th -- now that would be evidence, yet the text simply says after a full month of travel they arrived in the desert.





Quote:
If you read Exodus 16 you will see on the evening of the "15th day of the month" God caused quail to blow into the camp of the Children of Israel and the next morning manna started to fall. Day 15 = The Sabbath, plus 16th day (1st day of manna), 17th day (2nd day of Manna), 18th day (3rd day of Manna), 19th day (4th day of Manna), 20th day (5th day of manna), 21st day (6th day of Manna) whereas the Children are to gather twice as much manna because on the 22 day there will be no manna because that day is the Sabbath day. The math works out the same way as it did from the Exodus of Egypt with the Sabbath being on the 8th, 15th, 22nd and 29th day from the New Moon.


Maybe it was still the 15th or maybe it was a little later, we can't be sure from the text.

Yet, the strange part about the manna -- there is absolutely NO instructions concerning the 4th lunar week in each month, in which they had extra days. Did they gather manna on "transition days" (30th) or on "New Moon Days" (1st). Or did they have to gather for four days on the 28th to make it through the 29th, 30th and 1st? And only then was this followed by six regular days before another Sabbath arrived.

The record simply gives the six days manna, seventh day no manna falls.
There is no evidence of a monthly recurring 8 or 9 day week.

To me this is strong evidence that the 7th day Sabbath is a continuous seven day cycle. Not one that is broken every fourth week.


Quote:
That's two months in a row wereas the Sabbaths were on the identical days of the same Lunar Calendar Impossible to duplicate on a Gregorian calendar. If the 22nd was the Sabbath OF that month simply subtract 7 days to see where the PREVIOUS sabbath fell - it fell on the 15th!

But it is an assumption. The only thing we know for sure is that Israel left Egypt on the 15th of the 1st month, and arrived in the desert of Sin, on the 15th of the second month. To me this shows the 15th as a major traveling day.



Quote:
We are not going to stop at two months, so let's continue to "the third month".

"In the third month, when the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai". Exodus 19,1


So again they ARRIVE at Sinai on the 15th. Again it was a traveling day. They should have arrived on the 14th and rested on the 15th if it really were a Sabbath.



Quote:
That's two months in a row and I've not been able to find anyone who can duplicate that on a Gregorian Calendar in ANY two back to back months in ANY YEAR.
Anyone is welcome to correct my math.


It's like saying -- The children of Israel left Egypt on April the 15th, they arrived in the desert of Sin a month later on May the 15th, and another month later they arrived at Sinai on June the 15th.

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: dedication] #153705
06/28/13 12:19 PM
06/28/13 12:19 PM
H
Harold Fair  Offline
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Posts: 215
Florida, USA
You are mixing Sabbaths. There are seven, 7, annual sabbaths connected with the sacrificial law that have nothing to do with the weekly Sabbath sistituted at Creation.


Harold T.
Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Harold Fair] #153732
06/29/13 02:20 AM
06/29/13 02:20 AM
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Originally Posted By: Harold Fair
You are mixing Sabbaths. There are seven, 7, annual sabbaths connected with the sacrificial law that have nothing to do with the weekly Sabbath sistituted at Creation.

Are you referring to me, or to the writer of the post I was answering. Because if you are referring to me I must have really been unclear in my answers, for you to come to the opposite conclusion as to what I was trying to say!

The lunar calendar looks to the festival special days as the same as the seventh day Sabbath.
My two posts tried to show why I don't see this as possible.

I agree -- the festival "Sabbaths" are NOT the same as the seventh-day Sabbath of creation.

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Daryl] #170956
12/29/14 03:35 PM
12/29/14 03:35 PM
K
kland  Offline
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It seems Pod has become quite busy and hasn't had a chance to respond yet.

It's interesting that he says he's certain it will be perfectly clear if only he can post pictures. He does. Unfortunately, I cannot determine how posting a moon phase chart and the times of rising and setting of the moon makes anything clear about how many days are in a week or if it should be restarted at times.
Too little delivered, too late.

I found some other posts by others on the internet of people promoting an idea, and being requested to support it Biblically. The others become frustrated because after 100s of pages, the promoter just urges acceptance with nothing more than they saying others will be eternally lost unless they blindly accept what's being promoted. I see a pattern.

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: cephalopod] #177155
09/30/15 01:01 AM
09/30/15 01:01 AM
A
Alchemy  Offline
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Posts: 2,264
Asia
Originally Posted By: cephalopod
True, the weekly cycle is 7 days - it has always been 7 days...
...6 days for work to be done followed by the 7th day Sabbath.
...I'm in full agreement with that.

What's not supported in Scripture is a "continous cycle" of 7 day weeks...
...That's what I'm saying.
...And the Sanctuary Truth confirms that as obviously as night follows the day.

Originally Posted By: Eze 46:1

Thus saith the Lord GOD; The gate of the inner court that looketh toward the east shall be shut the six working days; [color:#FF0000]but on the sabbath it shall be opened, and in the day of the new moon it shall be opened.

And the prince shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate without, and shall stand by the post of the gate, and the priests shall prepare his burnt offering and his peace offerings, and he shall worship at the threshold of the gate: then he shall go forth; but the gate shall not be shut until the evening.

Likewise the people of the land shall worship at the door of this gate before the LORD in the sabbaths and in the new moons[/color]


The six working days do not include a "Sabbath" OR "New Moon day"...
...Simply because the gates of the inner court would NEVER be open on one of the 6 working days.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVrk-PpKIEA&feature=related




Again cephalopod,

There were sabbaths associated with the feast days that were separate from the weekly Sabbath of the fourth commandment. You are simply getting confused about their separate timing.

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: cephalopod] #177156
09/30/15 01:02 AM
09/30/15 01:02 AM
A
Alchemy  Offline
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Posts: 2,264
Asia
Originally Posted By: cephalopod
Many SDA's have accepted the present truth of the Lunisolar Sabbath...
...The facts of our Sanctuary Truth confirmed by Sister White.
...Leave zero doubt as to this calendation.
...It is the ONLY way possible for Jesus to have died on the Cross at the Jewish Passover in 31 A.D.

I would urge watching the series of videos up to at least part 5 with your Bible open and follow along...
...It's impossible to duplicate what's in the Bible with the Gregorian.


oic...

No, the Luni-solar sabbath is completely unBiblical.

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Alchemy] #182861
03/21/17 05:37 PM
03/21/17 05:37 PM
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Garywk  Offline
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I haven't slogged through all ten pages of this old thread so I don't know if anyone brought the following out.

To me the Sabbath means a lot more than just a memorial of creation. For Biblical evidence of this I would like to give a couple of passages of scripture:

Quote:
Exodus 31:12 ¶And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you.
14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.*n4
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.


Quote:
Ezekiel 20:10 ¶Wherefore I caused them to go forth out of the land of Egypt, and brought them into the wilderness.
11 And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them.*n3
12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them.
13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them.


So, to me Sabbath is a sign between me and God that I understand that HE is the one who sanctifies me. Just as I am to cease from all my daily labor on Sabbath I am to cease from my efforts to become holy and allow HIM to do HIS work of sanctification within my life. This is what Paul was speaking about in Hebrews 4:
Quote:
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.


I also believe the prohibition against working on Sabbath was at least partially given to teach us that our works cannot make us holy, and that it is only God who can change us.

John, in 1John 3:6 points to this too. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not. Paul says basically the same in Ephesians: For it is God who worketh in you both to will and to do....

As for SOP support for this:
Quote:
All true obedience comes from the heart. It was heart work with Christ. And if we consent, He will so identify Himself with our thoughts and aims, so blend our hearts and minds into conformity to His will, that when obeying Him we shall be but carrying out our own impulses. The will, refined and sanctified, will find its highest delight in doing His service. When we know God as it is our privilege to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience. Through an appreciation of the character of Christ, through communion with God, sin will become hateful to us. {DA 668.3}


It is the knowing God, the abiding in Him, that allows Him to sanctify us. Think of the promise, when we know God, as it is our privilege to know Him, our lives will be one of continual obedience. This is the same promise as 1John 3:6. Abiding in Christ keeps us from sinning. Knowing God, as it is our privilege to know him gives us continual obedience. These things tell me a couple of things about myself. 1. I do not know God as well as it is my privilege to know Him. 2. I do not constantly abide in Christ as I still sin.

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: ] #182920
03/25/17 01:11 PM
03/25/17 01:11 PM
A
Alchemy  Offline
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Asia
Originally Posted By: Gary K
I haven't slogged through all ten pages of this old thread so I don't know if anyone brought the following out.

To me the Sabbath means a lot more than just a memorial of creation. For Biblical evidence of this I would like to give a couple of passages of scripture:

Quote:
Exodus 31:12 ¶And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you.
14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.*n4
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.


Quote:
Ezekiel 20:10 ¶Wherefore I caused them to go forth out of the land of Egypt, and brought them into the wilderness.
11 And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them.*n3
12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them.
13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them.


So, to me Sabbath is a sign between me and God that I understand that HE is the one who sanctifies me. Just as I am to cease from all my daily labor on Sabbath I am to cease from my efforts to become holy and allow HIM to do HIS work of sanctification within my life. This is what Paul was speaking about in Hebrews 4:
Quote:
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.


I also believe the prohibition against working on Sabbath was at least partially given to teach us that our works cannot make us holy, and that it is only God who can change us.

John, in 1John 3:6 points to this too. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not. Paul says basically the same in Ephesians: For it is God who worketh in you both to will and to do....

As for SOP support for this:
Quote:
All true obedience comes from the heart. It was heart work with Christ. And if we consent, He will so identify Himself with our thoughts and aims, so blend our hearts and minds into conformity to His will, that when obeying Him we shall be but carrying out our own impulses. The will, refined and sanctified, will find its highest delight in doing His service. When we know God as it is our privilege to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience. Through an appreciation of the character of Christ, through communion with God, sin will become hateful to us. {DA 668.3}


It is the knowing God, the abiding in Him, that allows Him to sanctify us. Think of the promise, when we know God, as it is our privilege to know Him, our lives will be one of continual obedience. This is the same promise as 1John 3:6. Abiding in Christ keeps us from sinning. Knowing God, as it is our privilege to know him gives us continual obedience. These things tell me a couple of things about myself. 1. I do not know God as well as it is my privilege to know Him. 2. I do not constantly abide in Christ as I still sin.


Very powerful post Gary K.

It is true from the two renderings of the Ten Commandments from God in Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5 that there is more to the Sabbath than creation. But, it all starts with creation.

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Alchemy] #182940
03/25/17 10:02 PM
03/25/17 10:02 PM
G
Garywk  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

Veteran Member
Joined: Jul 2023
Posts: 982
Colville, Wa
Originally Posted By: Alchemy


Very powerful post Gary K.

It is true from the two renderings of the Ten Commandments from God in Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5 that there is more to the Sabbath than creation. But, it all starts with creation.


Thanks, alchemy, but the credit goes to the Holy Spirit.

Yes, it does start with creation, and it ends with our re-creation back into God's image. Both our original creation, and our re-creation back into His image, are/will_be memorials to God's creative power and love.

The Sabbath is a memorial, in that respect, to Righteousness by Faith, and it always will be as we will keep it throughout eternity. It will always be one more reminder of who made it possible for us to make it to heaven.

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