Another December 25th is almost here, a day in which both the Christian religious and secular societies give special recognition to.

For both it is Christmas Day, however, that is as far as it goes.

For the secular, it's focus is basically Santa Claus.

For the Christian religious, its focus is both on Santa Claus and the birthday of Jesus Christ.

For some Christian groups, the focus is basically on the birth of Jesus Christ.

Was Jesus really born on December 25th?

Was He really even born in December at all?

I find an interesting parallel between the First Advent and the Second Advent of Jesus Christ. It seems that we don't really know the day and hour of His First Advent in the same way we don't know the day and hour of His Second Advent. Another interesting parallel is that there were those who knew of the day, if not the hour, of His First Advent at the time it took place, in the same way that there will also be those who will know of His Second Advent at the time it will take place. Interesting!!!

Can we determine from the Bible and other sources when He wasn't born, and at the same time determine at what time or season of the year He may have been born?

This is going to require some historical and reference material to find out the time and era this had occurred, or at least try to. The Bible gives indication as to the time, but what is very interesting is how the wise men knew exactly! God reveals the following in His Word.

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Matthew 2:1
1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king,

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quote:

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Matthew 2:22
22 But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judaea in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither:

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What does the term did reign in Judaea in the room of his father mean? This can also indicate as to the time.


God Bless,
Will

I recall listening to a pastor talking about the date December 25th specifically and how it has to do with the birth of Tammuz, so the result is not really celebrating the birth of Christ since He was not born on the 25th, but the birth of Tammuz.
I am paraphrasing of cours,e but this is what I can remember. Can anyone go in depth on this?

God Bless,
Will

And what about the following text?

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Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
2 (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)

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Can we pinpoint in history when this decree took place in relation to Caesar Augustus and Cyrenius?

Ok after a bit of searching online I found the following which was my first guess, but here goes:

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According to history books...

Caesar Augustus was the first emperor of Rome. He reigned from 27 B C to AD 14. Augustus ordered a tax census of the empire which was issued about 8 BC, but probably did not actually go into effect until 6 BC. Citizens were usually given a period of several months to comply with such a decree, once it went into effect.
Sulpicius Quirinius was twice governor of Syria. His first governorship was from 4 BC to AD 1.
Based on the historical facts given above, most Bible scholars agree that Jesus Christ was born in 4 BC or 5 BC.

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******* I removed that link as it also links to doctrinal beliefs of another denomination. Feel free to quote any findings there in relation to this topic. - Daryl ******

I will post more as I find some more info.
God Bless,
Will

[ December 20, 2003, 07:02 AM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]

I came across a much better link than that which prompted this topic in the first place.

As that site is a site of another denomination in which they state questionable doctrinal beliefs, I will not be posting that link here, however, it does contain a lot of interesting discussion material there. Instead, what I am doing it drawing from that site questions from which possible answers are expressed in that site, which I will also be sharing here.

To make this even more interesting, I want to see if anybody can find that site as part of the research given in this topic. If you do locate it though, please do not post the link to it here.

This is definitely not a SDA site, however, one interesting thing in that site are some relative quotes from Dr. Samuele B.

In reply to Will's post and quote, here is a quote from the site I came upon:

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The census described by Luke
Other evidence arguing against a December birth of Jesus is the Roman census recorded by Luke. "And it came to pass in those days that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered... So all went to be registered, everyone to his own city. Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem..., to be registered with Mary, his betrothed wife, who was with child. So it was, that while they were there, the days were completed for her to be delivered. And she brought forth her firstborn Son..." (Luke 2:1-7).

The Roman and Judean rulers knew that taking a census in winter would have been impractical and unpopular. Generally a census would take place after the harvest season, around September or October, when it would not seriously affect the economy, the weather was good and the roads were still dry enough to allow easy travel. According to the normal dates for the census, this would probably be the season of Christ's birth.

One author states that this census "could hardly have been at that season [December 25], however, for such a time would surely not have been chosen by the authorities for a public enrollment, which necessitated the population's traveling from all parts to their natal districts, storms and rain making journeys both unsafe and unpleasant in winter, except in specially favorable years" ("Christmas at Bethlehem," Holy-Days and Holidays, Cunningham Geikie).

Luke's account of the census argues strongly against a December date for Christ's birth. For such an agrarian society, an autumn post-harvest census was much more likely.

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The above quote makes sense, doesn't it?

Another interesting and related question: When were shepherds in the fields?

I believe that, for historical reasons, God chose to allow the general time to be deciphered. However, I think that Christmas, Easter, Halloween, and such, are really Satan's ploy, through the Catholic Church, to get people thinking about any "holy" day except the only true Holy Day -- the Sabbath.

I believe, with the exception of the Jewish Feasts, that God hasn't revealed the day of Christ's birth because He doesn't want people to attach themselves to it. What is important is that we keep the Sabbath and not get sentimental about times and seasons which are irrelevant to our salvation.

Dave

Agree with that Dave.

As for when the shepherds were in their fields, I read somewhere that with Israel's climate, they'd be out with their flocks in the late spring/summer/early fall. So December's definitely out. Jesus might have frozen to death outside in a manger!

In the sun-worshipping Roman empire, Dec. 25th was revered as the "birthday of the sun"; it being only a few days after the shortest day of the year. As the days got longer, the sun was "reborn", so they had a celebration.

Later the papacy saw fit to change the day from the sun's birthday to the Son's birthday.

What you are saying, John, agrees with the following quote from that web site:

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When were shepherds in the fields?

Israeli meteorologists tracked December weather patterns for many years and concluded that the climate in Israel has been essentially constant for at least the last 2,000 years. The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible states that, "broadly speaking, weather phenomena and climatic conditions as pictured in the Bible correspond with conditions as observed today" (R.B.Y. Scott, Vol. 3, Abingdon Press, Nashville, 1962, p. 625).

The temperature in the area of Bethlehem in December averages around 44 degrees Fahrenheit (7 degrees Celsius) but can drop to well below freezing, especially at night. Describing the weather there, Sara Ruhin, chief of the Israeli weather service, noted in a 1990 press release that the area has three months of frost: December with 29 F. [minus 1.6 C.]; January with 30 F. [minus 1.1 C.] and February with 32 F. [0 C.].

Snow is common for two or three days in Jerusalem and nearby Bethlehem in December and January. These were the winter months of increased precipitation in Christ's time, when the roads became practically unusable and people stayed mostly indoors.

This is important evidence to disprove a December date for Christ's birth. Note that, at the time of Christ's birth, the shepherds tended their flocks in the fields at night. "Now there were in the same country shepherds living out in the fields," wrote one Gospel writer, "keeping watch over their flock by night" (Luke 2:8). A common practice of shepherds was keeping their flocks in the field from April to October, but in the cold and rainy winter months they took their flocks back home and sheltered them.

One commentary admits that, "as these shepherds had not yet brought home their flocks, it is a presumptive argument that October had not yet commenced, and that, consequently, our Lord was not born on the 25th of December, when no flocks were out in the fields; nor could He have been born later than September, as the flocks were still in the fields by night. On this very ground the nativity in December should be given up. The feeding of the flocks by night in the fields is a chronological fact, which casts considerable light upon this disputed point" (Adam Clarke's Commentary, Abingdon Press, Nashville, note on Luke 2:8).

Another study source agrees: "These humble pastoral folk are out in the field at night with their flock—a feature of the story which would argue against the birth [of Christ] occurring on Dec. 25 since the weather would not have permitted it" (The Interpreter's One-Volume Commentary, Abingdon Press, Nashville, 1971, note on Luke 2:4-7).

The Companion Bible, Appendix 179 says:

Shepherds and their flocks would not be found "abiding" (Gr. agrauleo) in the open fields at night in December (Tebeth), for the paramount reason that there would be no pasturage at that time. It was the custom then (as now) to withdraw the flocks during the month Marchesven (Oct.-Nov.) from the open districts and house them for the winter.

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I guess the above clearly does away with a December birth, and also questions His birth between October and November. I would also say that we can say that it wasn't January for the same reason that it obviously wasn't December. That leaves it being somewhere between February and September inclusive. Any thoughts on this?

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Typing error and formatting corrections only. - Daryl

[ December 20, 2003, 07:28 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]