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Re: prophetic cartoon?
#42500
03/14/04 01:02 AM
03/14/04 01:02 AM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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quote:
Originally posted by Ikan:
To lump Wm. Miller with EGW is a bit on the side of oversimplification.
But that all depends on how you feel about who EGW was, function-wise; a Messenger or an old lady that founded another denomination.
The Sunday Law event is not a mystical, wishy-washy prediction. It is a statement of future fact.
But men are at liberty to think what they like, as long as they understand that there are no neutrals.
Sure: Adventists can make heaps of mistakes...if they don't read EGW, especially, along with their Bibles...
Gee... then this must be part of that 100+ year old "mistake", I suppose:
Hmm, unless the story about how Wm Miller turned from farmer to preacher is a lie, he too was a messenger. And who are we to make one of Gods messengers higher than another? Or is the amounth of messages delivered what we are to compare them with?
to Bob, anicent rome was a democratic republic? First of all, Rome didnt invent "democracy", the greeks where first, secound only free citizens of Rome could vote, you where free citizen if you could trace your family to one of the free families of the early rome. Comparing that to US it would be like only decendants of the original mayflower colonists could vote and noone else, or perhaps only decendants of the puritans of the brittish colonies. In all cases, a little minority of the people within the borders. I would also be interested in why anicent rome was the greatest empire ever... what makes it greater than anicent china, india, great zimbabwe, inca, maya or egypt? Also about the role models of the early american statemakers, according to a teacher of history at the University of Göteborg, it wasnt Rome but the Athenean citystate. Anyway, just a few questions of things not in accord with todays historical understanding.
/Thomas
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Re: prophetic cartoon?
#42501
03/14/04 02:29 AM
03/14/04 02:29 AM
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Thomas,
William Miller wasn't a prophet of God. A godly man, mightily led of God, yes. Inspired prophet, no.
Ellen White was an inspired prophet. There's a big difference.
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Re: prophetic cartoon?
#42502
03/14/04 04:39 AM
03/14/04 04:39 AM
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John,
It is only fair that you demonstrate to us the numerous reasons why the interpretation that I have shared is wrong.
I will leave it up to you to draw your own conclusions concerning the validity of EGW, her messages, and the doctrines of the SDA Church.
Thomas,
You are correct in stating that the term Democracy did not originate with the Romans. It was first practiced by the Greeks, in a limited fashion, but the Romans incorporated it and expanded upon it in the formation of their government.
I seem to recall a period in America's history where slaves and women did not have the right to vote. Today it is possible for all citizens of the USA to be able to vote.
The apostle Paul was a Jew and yet a Roman citizen. Did he not have the same rights as a Roman by birth?
To call the Roman Empire the "greatest empire of all" is, of course, a matter of perspective. There are many things(i.e. government, judicial, engineering, etc.) in this world that can trace their origin to the time of the Roman Empire. There are many other empires/dynasty that can claim greatness, but the Roman Empire had the greatest impact upon this world.
The primary point that I have attempted to make is that the United States Government has "imaged" its government structure after that of the Roman Empire.
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Re: prophetic cartoon?
#42503
03/14/04 12:21 PM
03/14/04 12:21 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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quote:
Originally posted by John:
Thomas,
William Miller wasn't a prophet of God. A godly man, mightily led of God, yes. Inspired prophet, no.
Ellen White was an inspired prophet. There's a big difference.
John
What is a prophet? And what is the differnece between a prophet and an inspired prophet? If a prophet must get information about the future, in that case, how was John the baptist or some of the "minor" prophets in the OT prophets?
/Thomas
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Re: prophetic cartoon?
#42504
03/14/04 08:04 PM
03/14/04 08:04 PM
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Bob wrote, quote:
John,
It is only fair that you demonstrate to us the numerous reasons why the interpretation that I have shared is wrong.
Okay, we'll go into this a bit. But not exhaustively; these are things any SDA can study pretty easily with materials readily available.
You said that "the First Beast is representative of the Pagan Roman Empire." This premise is faulty, and faulty premises lead to faulty conclusions. It's obvious that the first beast of Revelation 13 represents the papacy, not the pagan Roman Empire. This beast continued "forty and two months" (verse 5); a period of 1260 years. Pagan Rome didn't fulfill this aspect, while the papacy did so very exactly.
The second beast, the U.S., is seen coming up out of the earth at about the same time as the first beast receives its deadly wound. Verses 10,11. Pagan Rome fell in A.D. 476. It would be another 1300 years before the U.S. came upon the scene; so your identification of the first beast with pagan Rome quite simply doesn't fit the facts of the prophecy. Only the career of the papacy fulfills the particulars of this first beast.
Moving on, we see that the image to the first beast can't be what you say it is either, since the first beast isn't the pagan Roman empire.
The first beast is papal Rome, and she says herself that her "mark" of authority is the fact that she changed the sabbath to Sunday.
Then you say, quote:
In order for a Universal Sunday Law to be established in this world a fundamental principal of Democracy must be done away with. The inalienable right to "worship as one pleases" must be voided. If this were to happen, it would not only threaten the SDA church, but also all Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Atheists, etc.
It will never happen.
Ellen White wrote,
"As America, the land of religious liberty, shall unite with the papacy in forcing the conscience and compelling men to honor the false sabbath, the people of every country on the globe will be led to follow her example." 6T 18. I believe I'll go along with what was written by an inspired prophet of God.
How is it that you claim better knowledge of prophecy than the rest of us, while at the same time you openly reject the Holy Spirit as manifested in the work of Sister White?
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Re: prophetic cartoon?
#42505
03/14/04 08:31 PM
03/14/04 08:31 PM
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Thomas, quote:
What is a prophet?
A prophet is, literally, God's mouthpiece.
"Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but He revealeth His secret unto His servants the prophets." Amos 3:7
"God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began." Acts 3:21
The gift of prophecy is second only to that of being an apostle; 1 Corinthians 12:28.
God speaks to prophets in visions and dreams. Numbers 12:6.
A prophet is God's messenger, giving directly inspired messages straight from Him. Their messages are authoritative, and are to be treated as coming straight from God. The Scriptures have this type of inspired authority.
There are many examples of noncanonical prophets in the Bible whose prophecies are not recorded; but their prophecies were no less inspired than the ones that are recorded in Scripture. The same Holy Spirit inspired them. But their prophecies were judged by God to be of temporary or local interest only, and so were not included in the canon.
Into this category come the prophetic writings and speeches of Ellen White. However, her work has a special character, since she was the first bona fide prophet to surface in 17½ centuries, and she arrived on the scene for the purpose of providing special guidance at the conclusion of the 2300-day prophecy, to prepare a people for the 2nd coming of Jesus.
William Miller was a messenger of God in one respect, but he was not directly inspired by God in the way Ellen White and all the other prophets were. The same is true of the Protestant Reformers such as Luther, Calvin, Knox, Huss, Zwingli, etc. They were mightily used of God, but not inspired by Him in the same direct way that prophets are.
For more on how inspiration works, see "The Dynamics of Inspiration", at
http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/dynamics.html
and "Inspiration/Revelation: What It Is and How It Works", at
http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/rev-insp.html
quote:
And what is the differnece between a prophet and an inspired prophet?
They'd be the same thing.
quote:
If a prophet must get information about the future, in that case, how was John the baptist or some of the "minor" prophets in the OT prophets?
Prophets don't necessarily foretell the future, though most do. Abraham was a prophet (Genesis 20:7), yet we don't have any record of him making predictions regarding the future. John the Baptist foretold the future in a limited way in heralding the coming of Christ; but his role was primarily to "prepare...the way of the Lord, make His paths straight." Matthew 3:3.
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Re: prophetic cartoon?
#42506
03/14/04 08:53 PM
03/14/04 08:53 PM
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This topic has been moved into the Prophetic Studies forum.
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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