I am a firm advocate of dual prophecy principles. So I have no problem accepting the idea that Jesus' end-time prophecies have dual application predictions. The info regarding the sun, moon and stars and earthquakes most definitely have a historical application and is nicely recorded in the GC.

But the future final fulfillment yet to come will overshadow the historical. I believe when probation closes an asteroid will impact the earth triggering world-wide epic events mentioned all throughout the Bible, including the ones being discussed here. I have a study that provides convincing evidence concerning this insight. If anyone would like to read it please just ask me to email it to you.

God bless.

Instead of emailing his article, and since it fits with this topic, you can read it for yourself at this location below:

http://www.tagnet.org/fton-sda/meteor.htm

After reading it, you can comment on it here.

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In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

Went, read, came away a bit troubled.

I won't say it can't or it won't happen.

I am troubled by the aspect of placing the trumpets in a future time setting.

I am troubled by the implication that prophecy will be fulfilled in a particularly prescribed manner. God is not limited by the laws of nature of which He is author. Nor in fulfilling prophecy is he limited to the concepts born of our feeble knowledge and imagination.

It is my experience that what we are so sure will happen in a certain way often does not. If God has a thousand ways to provide for us of which we know nothing, then He surely has a thousand ways of fulfilling prophecy of which we know nothing. Let's not tie God's hands, for He may work in ways totally unexpected.

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For I know that my redeemer liveth,
and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth.
_________________________

Linda

[This message has been edited by Linda Sutton (edited March 31, 2001).]

Hi everyone,

This is a topic I've thought a lot about. I haven't been able to figure out the 7 trumpets but I think I may have found a solution to the paradox of the 'time of tribulation such as never was or ever will be' happening three times. Maybe it will make sense to you too.

What I finally realized is that the time of tribulation is for different groups in each of the fulfillments. The first fulfillment was a time of trouble for the Jewish people that will probably never again be as severe. When the Romans overran Jerusalem they for all intents and purposes destroyed the Jewish nation and scattered individual Jews around the world. It wasn't until the last century that their nation began to exist again.

The second fulfillment was a time of tribulation such as never was or ever will be for God's people. Just reading 'Fox's Book of Martyrs' is enough to make you pass out. There were many times when the knowlege of the truth almost became extinct. God's people will face persecution again but it will never be as severe or successful as what happened during the dark ages.

The last and fullest fulfillment is a time of tribulation such as never was nor ever will be for unbelievers and the world at large. Daniel 12:1 puts this time of trouble after the close of probation and Sister White has stated that not one of God's people will be killed after that time because it wouldn't serve any purpose. This is the time that the world will be reeling under the seven last plaques and God's people will be going through the mental distress known as Jacob's time of trouble.

quote:

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...Hence at the mention of judgments upon Jerusalem, their minds revert to that coming, and as they are gathered about the Saviour upon the Mount of Olives, they ask, "When shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" [MATT. 24:3.] {4SP 25.3}

The future was mercifully veiled from the disciples. Had they at that time fully comprehended the two awful facts,--the Redeemer's sufferings and death and the destruction of their city and temple,--they would have been paralyzed with horror. Christ presented before them an outline of the prominent events to transpire before the close of time. His words were not then fully understood; but their meaning was to be unfolded as his people should need the instruction therein given. The prophecy which he uttered was twofold in its meaning: while foreshadowing the destruction of Jerusalem, it prefigured also the terrors of the last great day. {4SP 26.1}

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quote:

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When Jesus revealed to his disciples the fate of Jerusalem and the scenes of the second advent, he foretold also the experience of his people from the time when he should be taken from them, to his return in power and glory for their deliverance. From Olivet the Saviour beheld the storms about to fall upon the apostolic church, and, penetrating deeper into the future, his eye discerned the fierce, wasting tempests that were to beat upon his followers in the coming ages of darkness and persecution. In a few brief utterances, of awful significance, he foretold the portion which the rulers of this world would mete out to the church of God. The followers of Christ must tread the same path of humiliation, reproach, and suffering which their Master trod. The enmity that burst forth against the world's Redeemer, would be manifested against all who should believe on his name. {4SP 39.1}

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Only our blessed Saviour could give a prophecy that has THREE applications!

Not only the destruction of Jerusalem; and the destruction of the world after probation's close;
BUT the time period between then and now!!

Truly HE is the Wonderful Numberer - Palmoni - of Daniel 8:13.

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joy b2u,
Karen
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Look up!! He's coming!!

[This message has been edited by Karen (edited March 31, 2001).]

The asteroid thing is similar to what Marvin Moore suggests as a possible end-time scenario. Much of the data makes a pretty good fit, and I'm not saying it's not possible.

Linda
I guess I have a problem thinking that God has a thousand ways to fulfil his prophecies. I don't think we can tie God's hands, but I think God has tied his own hands, if you want to look at it that way. It only stands to reason that if God made a prophecy so we would know what is comming and can prepare for it, he would follow his prophecy pretty closely.

I'd like to see a Biblical arguement for prophecies being fulfilled multiple times. To me that pretty much negates the usefulness of prophecy.

Karen

Durk,

What's your take on - "Thou must prophesy again" Rev 10:11? As I read it I get the impression God is saying something like - Okay, you made it through the Great Disappointment. Now I want you to repeat the prophecies again, only this time without the mistakes.

If my insights are anywhere near being right then it can be deduced that prophecy is flexible enough to accommodate more than one fulfilment without compromising the integrity of either one. It's not that a prophecy is being watered down, but rather that it's clever enough to take in more than one scenario. It might have something to do with the adage - History repeats itself.

I realize that this explanation cannot be applied to the time dated portions of a prophecy. But there appears to be principles and particulars in every prophecy. The particulars belong to a specific time and place and people, whereas the principles belong to everyone everywhere.

Take, for example, the battle of Gog and Magog. Ezekiel 38 and 39. The Jews failed to fulfill this prophecy way back before the birth of Christ. And yet God reapplied it to the battle fought after the millennium. Revelation 20. Obviously many of the details do not carry over in future, but the underlying principles do fit nicely.

Does that count for a biblical precedence for dual application of prophecy?

Hello Linda,

You wrote:

quote:

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Nor in fulfilling prophecy is he limited to the concepts born of our feeble knowledge and imagination.

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You do have a way of making a guy feel good, don't you? Point well taken though. It just smarts the way you put it. You also said you were uncomfortable with the idea of placing the trumpets in the future. What are your thoughts on this Ellen White quote?

"Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded, vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth." 7BC 982.

And how do you interpret Rev 8:2-5? I believe it very clearly describes the close of probation. If so, then the trumpets follow thereafter.

Mike,

I apolgize for hurting your feelings. It certainly wasn't intended as the sentence you quoted was not directed at you or anyone in particular. I actually heard this theory before quite some time ago. To repeat myself, I don't know if it will or won't happen.

Speaking of our feeble imaginations, I was thinking of how Bible prophecies are written. They don't have a lot of minute details. On one hand they are succint, on the other there is a lot of room for us humans to let our imaginations fill in details. Very often, our details miss the boat--sometimes just barely, sometimes by miles. That's what I was referring to.

As for prophecy: Sometimes a prophecy has been partially fulfilled in the past and will receive a complete fulfillment in the future. Sometimes a prophecy has been completely fulfilled in the past and history will be repeated. I believe this is the case with the trumpets, i.e., Revelation 10 is part of the sounding of the trumpets, yet the SOP is quite clear that the fulfillment of this prophecy took place in 1844.

The books of Daniel and the Revelation are one. One is a prophecy, the other a revelation; one a book sealed, the other a book opened. John heard the mysteries which the thunders uttered, but he was commanded not to write them. The special light given to John which was expressed in the seven thunders was a delineation of events which would transpire under the first and second angels' messages. It was not best for the people to know these things, for their faith must necessarily be tested. In the order of God, most wonderful and advanced truths would be proclaimed. The first and second angels' messages had done their specific work. This is represented by the angel standing with one foot on the sea, proclaiming with a most solemn oath that time should be no longer. {1MR 99.3}

This time which the angel declares with a solemn oath, is not the end of this world's history, neither of probationary time, but of prophetic time, which should precede the advent of our Lord. That is, the people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844. The angel's position with one foot on the sea, the other on the land signifies the wide extent of the proclamation of the message. It will cross the broad waters and be proclaimed in other countries, even to all the world. The comprehension of truth, the glad reception of the message is represented in the eating of the little book. The truth in regard to the time of the advent of our Lord was a precious message to our souls. Ms 59, 1900, pp. 8, 9. ("Jots and Tittles, II," August 16, 1900.) White Estate Washington, D. C. May 4, 1950 {1MR 100.1}

I guess if there is one thing I have learned concerning prophecy during my life, it is that there will be as many varying views as there are people when it comes to details. I believe we should study the prophecies, we should understand them in the light of biblical interpretation. It can be fun to speculate just how they are going to be exactly fulfilled, but we need to remember that things will probably not go exactly like we think they will. Iv'e seen this happen in my experience. Things in the Adventist church are radically different than what I thought they'd be 20 or 30 years ago.

Hope this helps you understand a little better where I am coming from.

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For I know that my redeemer liveth,
and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth.
_________________________

Linda