So the Holy Spirit is urging us to wash the outside of the cup until it is clean enough for Him to empower us to overcome, when He can wash the inside of the cup. If He doesn't dwell in us and empower us, then anything we do is filthy rags. I can't imagine Him being part of a process that produces no real righteousness, can you?

Zyph, I'm not sure what I wrote that led you to summarize that way, but that's not at all what I believe. The power to lay aside our sinful traits of character during the process of conversion is not the same that empowers us to imitate the holy example of Jesus after we're born again.

The power to lay aside sin is not the same as the power that enables us to experience righteousness by faith. The source is the same, that is God, but the two experiences are not the same. Not sinning and righteousness by faith are two entirely different experiences. Not sinning has to do with justification, whereas righteousness by faith has to do with sanctification.

It's not about the outside and inside of a cup, rather it's about the Holy Spirit impressing us us to lay aside our defects of character and then empowering us to imitate the sinless example of Jesus. So long as we are cooperating with God's plan for us, and progressing at His pace for the expulsion of sin, the Spirit is the source that supplies the necessary power to lay aside sin as God reveals them during the process of conversion.

But if we refuse to progress according to God's schedule for us, and cling to a certain sin God has already revealed, then whatever victories we may be experiencing in other areas of our life are of the same nature as any other unbeliever who has laid aside the same imperfections (i.e., smoking, drinking, cussing, etc). In other words, not every sin we give up is the result of God's power. Any strong willed person can leave off certain types of sin without the assistance of God.

The difference between unbelievers who give up sin for selfish reasons and believers who give up sin for Jesus is the source of their ability to live without sin. The results may look the same to the uninformed onlooker (i.e., both no longer smoke or whatever) but the spiritual differences are without comparison in the eyes of God. When the source of "victory" is self then the results serve the cause of Satan. But when the source of victory is the Holy Spirit then the results serve the cause of God.

During the process of conversion, before we've experienced the miracle of rebirth, the victories we realize as we respond to the influence of the Spirit impressing us to lay aside sin are of a heavenly origin and serve the cause of God. This deep cleansing process progresses as fast as God is able to safely reveal our defects of character and move us onward and forward to the point of complete surrender and submission, to the magical moment of conversion and rebirth.

Then the Spirit takes His seat upon the throne of our soul temple and begins empowering us from within, not to overcome sin (that's already a done deal), but rather to experience righteousness by faith - i.e., imitating the sinless example of Jesus. Just as Jesus grew and developed from childhood to adulthood, so too the Spirit empowers us to grow in grace and mature in the attributes and fruit of God. This is a life long adventure that will continue throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity.

Zyph:
That was certainly my intent. I know that I can come across in other ways. I am sorry for causing you discomfort but thank you for being able to see my thought.

Mike:
I have been reading your posts and trying to figure out how you arrived at your conclusions. I hesitate to respond to you for I do not want to put you into a position that you need to defend your ideas.

I have several issues of concern. First of all in my opinion you have artificially seperated justification and sanctification. In your attempts to clearly state both positions you end up negating both of them.

You also have artificially seperated the Holy Spirits work to reveal sin from the Holy Spirits presence in overcoming sin, and the Holy Spirits presence in creating the new birth experience.

I believe that you have desired to clarify these positions to the point that you also have created a sin oriented doctrine. In my opinion you have stated your thinking in a way the creates the idea that removal of sin is the key concept of salvation. To me that puts the cart before the horse. Salvation is Jesus oriented first and foremost. When Jesus is in the life, the new birth, then sin is removed by the Holy Spirit DA 671. As long as the Jesus connection is maintained then sin removal is an automatic by product. When the Jesus connection is broken then sin removal stops and the person starts picking up sins again.

If the focus is on sin then Satan is happy for that is his focus. In Steps to Christ Page 48 in the chapter Growing up Into Christ she says "When the mind dwells upon self, it is turned away from Christ, the source of strength and life. Hence it is Satans's constant effort to keep the attention diverted from the Saviour and thus prevent the union and communion of the soul with Christ....Many who are really conscientious, and who desire to live for God, he too often leads to dwell upon their own faults, and weakness, and thus by seperating them from christ, he hopes to gain the victory. We should not make self the center, and indulge anxiety and fear as to whether we shall be saved. All this turns the soul away from the Source of our strength. Commit the keeping of your soul to God, and trust in Him. Talk and think of Jesus. Let self be lost in Him....If you will leave yourself in His hands, He will bring you off more than conqueror through Him that has loved you."

Greg, thank you for redirecting this discussion back to Jesus. We become Christlike by beholding Christ and Him crucified. 2 Cor 3:18 and 1 Cor 2:2. We "fight the good fight of faith" by claiming the "precious promises" of God, which are inherently Christ centered. 1 Tim 6:12 and 2 Peter 1:4. Again, thank you for making that point clear.

I'm not sure how to respond to the suggestion that my posts artificially compartmentalize the gospel. For fear of sounding defensive may I say the sanctuary message definitely divides the plan of salvation into 3 distinct sections:

1. The Outer Court - which is where we behold Christ and Him crucified, confess and forsake our defects of character, crucify our old man traits of sin, experience the miracle of rebirth, receive the sinless mind of the new man, and obtain justification by faith.

2. The Holy Place - which is where we walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man, grow in grace and mature in the righteous attributes and fruit of God, imitate the sinless example of Jesus, and maintain justification by faith.

3. The Most Holy Place - which is where Jesus will one day examine and blot out the record and memory of our specifc sins.

Even though it seems as though the gospel of our salvation is separated into sections, in reality it is a very fluid experience. Progressive, but a smooth process just the same. And the timing of our experience is important. We must begin at the gate where we catch a glimpse of the price Jesus paid to redeem us from the penalty of sin. And if we are sensitive to the drawing influence of the Holy Spirit our hearts will overflow with love for God, and we will begin to loathe sin and crave the righteousness of Christ.

It is my hope and prayer that God's people will embrace the truth about conversion so that they can experience it unto the honor and glory of God. If we continue to tolerate sin in our life because our understanding of conversion leads us to believe that eliminating our unique defects of character requires a lifetime of sinning and repenting - if we truly believe this then our experience in Christ will leave us frustrated.

While we must not make laying aside sin our primary focus neither can we tolerate it as normal in favor of making Jesus our primary focus. If we are guilty of sin then eliminating it requires a certain amount of time and attention. In the old days it was quite involved what with having to find the perfect animal sacrifice, bringing it the temple, confessing the sin upon it, slitting its throat, and then the priest had to transfer the blood to the MHP.

Jesus is still the center of attention as we confess and forsake our sin, but, as you say, the main goal is to move beyond sin and begin walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, in "heavenly places" (namely, the holy place), imitating the holy example of Jesus. Eph 1:3.

We obtain justification in the outer court and then we maintain it in the holy place. True, justification and sanctification go hand-in-hand, but they are, nonetheless, separate and distinct functions operating within the bigger picture. Justification accommodates sinning and repenting, and sanctification involves maturing in the fruit of the Spirit.

In order to obtain and maintain justification we must continually choose to live up to all the light God has revealed to us. Otherwise, Jesus cannot justify justifying someone who refuses to lay aside sin after God has convicted them. But living without the sin God has exposed thus far requires divine power. Once the Lord is finally able to expose all our defects of character, and if we are still cooperating with the Spirit of God to lay them aside - then, and only then, do we experience the miracle of conversion and receive the implanted sinless seed of the new man, which comes perfectly complete with all the righteous attributes and fruit of God.

I have posted the Bible and SOP quotes that clearly teach this explanation of the timing and progession of salvation by faith, and if it would help I can post them again. Since the Bible and SOP describe conversion in these terms, and to this depth, I do not believe that I am trying to define it to minutely. Instead, understanding how the plan of salvation works is critical to our experiencing it.

Please feel free to respond to the things I have shared. I'm sorry if sounds like I'm defending my position, but hopefully, in the sweet spirit of Bible study, we can bounce ideas back and forth without feeling like we're fighting a war.

Greg, thank you for redirecting this discussion back to Jesus. We become Christlike by beholding Christ and Him crucified. 2 Cor 3:18 and 1 Cor 2:2. We "fight the good fight of faith" by claiming the "precious promises" of God, which are inherently Christ centered. 1 Tim 6:12 and 2 Peter 1:4. Again, thank you for making that point clear.

I'm not sure how to respond to the suggestion that my posts artificially compartmentalize the gospel. For fear of sounding defensive may I say the sanctuary message definitely divides the plan of salvation into 3 distinct sections:

1. The Outer Court - which is where we behold Christ and Him crucified, confess and forsake our defects of character, crucify our old man traits of sin, experience the miracle of rebirth, receive the sinless mind of the new man, and obtain justification by faith.

2. The Holy Place - which is where we walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man, grow in grace and mature in the righteous attributes and fruit of God, imitate the sinless example of Jesus, and maintain justification by faith.

3. The Most Holy Place - which is where Jesus will one day examine and blot out the record and memory of our specifc sins.

Even though it seems as though the gospel of our salvation is separated into sections, in reality it is a very fluid experience. Progressive, but a smooth process just the same. And the timing of our experience is important. We must begin at the gate where we catch a glimpse of the price Jesus paid to redeem us from the penalty of sin. And if we are sensitive to the drawing influence of the Holy Spirit our hearts will overflow with love for God, and we will begin to loathe sin and crave the righteousness of Christ.

It is my hope and prayer that God's people will embrace the truth about conversion so that they can experience it unto the honor and glory of God. If we continue to tolerate sin in our life because our understanding of conversion leads us to believe that eliminating our unique defects of character requires a lifetime of sinning and repenting - if we truly believe this then our experience in Christ will leave us frustrated.

While we must not make laying aside sin our primary focus neither can we tolerate it as normal in favor of making Jesus our primary focus. If we are guilty of sin then eliminating it requires a certain amount of time and attention. In the old days it was quite involved what with having to find the perfect animal sacrifice, bringing it the temple, confessing the sin upon it, slitting its throat, and then the priest had to transfer the blood to the MHP.

Jesus is still the center of attention as we confess and forsake our sin, but, as you say, the main goal is to move beyond sin and begin walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, in "heavenly places" (namely, the holy place), imitating the holy example of Jesus. Eph 1:3.

We obtain justification in the outer court and then we maintain it in the holy place. True, justification and sanctification go hand-in-hand, but they are, nonetheless, separate and distinct functions operating within the bigger picture. Justification accommodates sinning and repenting, and sanctification involves maturing in the fruit of the Spirit.

In order to obtain and maintain justification we must continually choose to live up to all the light God has revealed to us. Otherwise, Jesus cannot justify justifying someone who refuses to lay aside sin after God has convicted them. But living without the sin God has exposed thus far requires divine power. Once the Lord is finally able to expose all our defects of character, and if we are still cooperating with the Spirit of God to lay them aside - then, and only then, do we experience the miracle of conversion and receive the implanted sinless seed of the new man, which comes perfectly complete with all the righteous attributes and fruit of God.

I have posted the Bible and SOP quotes that clearly teach this explanation of the timing and progession of salvation by faith, and if it would help I can post them again. Since the Bible and SOP describe conversion in these terms, and to this depth, I do not believe that I am trying to define it to minutely. Instead, understanding how the plan of salvation works is critical to our experiencing it.

Please feel free to respond to the things I have shared. I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm defending my position, but hopefully, in the sweet spirit of Bible study, we can bounce ideas back and forth without feeling like we're fighting a war.

Mike:
When one chooses to go into the sanctuary and particpate in the sanctuary process is he/she converted?

Greg, my studies have led me to believe that the process of conversion takes place at the altar in the outer court. We begin crucifying our sinful old man traits of character as God reveals them, and self is considered dead the moment we confess and forsake the last moral defect exposed by God. This process, depending on the person, may take many months to many years.

We do not experience the miracle of rebirth (the product of conversion) until self is dead. This miracle takes place in and out of the laver in the outer court (baptism of the Holy Spirit). When we exit the laver we emerge as a babe in Christ. The Spirit implants the sinless seed of the new man and we immediately enter the holy place where we, like the baby Jesus, gradually grow in grace and mature morally in the fruit of the Spirit.

We may choose at any time to leave the sanctuary of our safety and salvation and resurrect, as it were, our old man and revert back to sin. Known moral sin cannot happen while we're walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man in the holy place. 1 John 3:9. Known moral sin only happens outside the sanctuary. That known moral sins are not committed in the holy place is evident from the fact no provisions exist there for dealing with sin. Sin only impacts the outer court and the most holy place, not the holy place.

So, are we converted when we enter the sanctuary? Yes, and no. We begin the process of conversion at the altar, but we are not "converted" until after self is dead and God implants the sinless seed of the new man at the laver and we enter the holy place. That's what makes sense to me according to the many quotes posted throughout this thread. What do you think?

Mike:
Why can't we begin the process of conversion when we are seperated from the sanctuary but the Holy Spirit is leading us to want to go into the sanctuary? Then the Spirit would lead us up to it. We would see people going into the sanctuary and hear wonderful stories of what happens when one goes in. The Spirit then prompts us to make the decision to go in. When we get to the door way we have to go through the rent in the curtain. When we choose to go through the rent in the side of Jesus are we not bathed in His blood? When we get inside the rent are we not baptized in the water and oil by the prophet and is not this baptism the start of our new lives in Christ? Are we not surrounded with the perfection of Christ's character and accounted perfect in God's sight?

AS we see and are affected by sight, and by the influence of the Holy Spirit changing and developing our senses as a new creation in Christ are we not led to the altar? Don't we then see the sacrifice of Jesus and understand more of how He saved us? Aren't we then invited to step up to the altar and lay ourselves down to be total sacrifices for Him? Doesn't the Holy Spirit maintain our fears to run out of this holy place and take up the old ways of life. When again we choose to stay are we not dieing daily to the old things and the old thoughts of life?

When we have been dedicated as sacrifices to Jesus do we not then have to start the process of cutting away the old thoughts and behaviors of the old life so that we may be growing in grace and truth? Do we not make trips to the laver to maintain our cleansed state? Do we not make excursions into the Holy Place to partake of the Word, be exposed to the light of the Holy Spirit and bow before the throne of God while enveloped in the incense of Christ's righteousness? Do we not go into the Most Holy Place, continually covered with the robe of Christ's righteousness and covered in the incense of His character. Do we not partake of the law, the manna, the priestly minsitrations of Jesus, and come under the privisions of mercy? Do we not partake of the Shekinah and enter into the joy of the angels? Do we not see our sins being removed from us by the truths of His Word and being carried out of the sanctuary and placed on Satan?

Aren't all these things only available to the converted person who has chosen to enter into the cleansing process? We know that at any time we can terminate the process for we always have freedom of choice. But as long as we choose to stay in Christ's righteousness are we not being cleansed? When that process is completed are we not totally united with God, in thought, word, deed, and nature?

To me the above is the conversion process. Total maturity is the point, that God can say "Ye that are holy be holy always." You are then sealed for your character is united to God and you will never choose to seperate yourself from Him and nothing but your own choice can ever seperate you from God.

I'm at work, so I don't have my Bible in front of me, but it seems that any text I would have quoted would have already been posted. I believe that Romans 3:16 would be one I would add anyway.

I had a thought as I was reading these posts though, and it seems to me that perhaps being a "sinner" is very much like being an alchoholic. An alchoholic can never say that they are cured, they are always an alcoholic - till the day they die. It is not something they can escape.