Lobo,

You are right that assumptions are made with regard to Sodom and Gomorrah. Genesis, for instance, does not say that the cities burned up, but it does say that burning sulpher rained down on the cities and Abraham saw dense smoke rising from the land. Then verse 29 clearly states that the cities were "destroyed." So when I read that they "served as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire" (Jude 1:7), is it assuming too much to believe that Sodom and Gomorrah burned up? And that all their inhabitants died in the fire?

I see no commonality between Jude 1 verse 6 and verse 7. The people died, the angels didn't. The angels abandoned their own home, the people didn't. The angels had positions of authority, the people didn't (except in their own little town).

Actually, if you go back to the subject Jude is discussing: "certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago [who] have secretly slipped in among you," (v 4) it seems obvious that the phrase "In a similar way" refers to "those men." "Those men" are probably also being compared to the Egyptians and the demons.

Bob Lee

Lobo,

I think you missed what I suggested was the theme of Jude's admonition. Let me try it again.

In verse 3, Jude says he was eager to write about the salvation we share but he felt he had to write to urge his audience to fight for the faith which was entrusted to the saints. Why? Because, he says in verse 4, certain godless men have slipped in among you who preach that God's grace is license for immorality. Jude says also that these men deny that Jesus is our Lord and he claims that these concepts were condemned long ago. Does my paraphrase sound right so far?

Jude continues by saying his readers should already know this, but he continues with several parallel examples.

One, God was gracious to people who didn't believe at the time of the Exodus, but later they became so blatantly evil that God destroyed them.

Two, angels who abandoned their home and authority He bound in chains and kept in darkness.

Three, people of Sodom and Gomorrah, like the godless men who infiltrated Jude's audience, gave themselves up to sexual perversions and were eternally destroyed by fire.

Jude continues by saying that just like the examples, these godless men pollute their bodies (see #3 above), reject authority (see #1 & 2 above), and slander celestial beings (possibly as in #1 & 2 above). He remarks that even Michael refused to slander the devil when He was challenged about taking Moses' body.

Read the rest of the chapter. It's all about these "certain men" of verse 4 and a plea to keep the faith and reject these men. All three examples Jude used, and as I suggested, the phrases "in a similar way" of verse 7 and "in the very same way" of verse 8, and the description in the rest of the chapter, all refer back to the godless men of verse 4 not to some intermediate verse such as verse 6.

This is how I see it.

Bob Lee

Bob,
I agree with your assessment of the overall point of Jude's message. However, that doesn’t negate the other items of truth that Jude inserts to make his point. In other words, the point of the passage is the godless men, but the examples Jude uses, in themselves, also give us additional information that is not the central theme of his writing.

For example, Jude stated "eternal fire", not eternally destroyed. The fact is that the concept of “eternal fire” was not a new one to Jude and was actually taught by Jesus (Matt 18:8, 25:41). This was also a concept understood in the OT as well, i.e. Isaiah 33:13-16.

Anyway, my point is that while giving us an example to support the point of his passage, Jude also indicated that he feels those in Sodom and Gomorrah are currently suffering in eternal fire.

Now whether this example of Sodom and Gomorrah can be applied to the angels in the previous verse, that is open to interpretation. The reason I make the connection is based on other scripture:

“Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” Matt 10:28

“In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.” Luke 16:23

“And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." Rev 14:11

“And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” Rev 20:10


So there is precedence for assuming Jude was also referring to this same concept mentioned other places in scripture.

Lobo,

It's interesting how one can read things into a passage that another does not see. You say, "Jude also indicated that he feels those in Sodom and Gomorrah are currently suffering in eternal fire." As I read Jude's seventh verse, I don't see any evidence that the people of Sodom or Gomorrah suffered, are currently suffering, or will suffer the punishment of eternal fire. They were EXAMPLES of those who will.

Because, as you noted previously, neither Sodom nor Gomorrah are burning today, it is this verse that Adventists use to demonstrate that "eternal fire" only lasts until the fire burns up whatever it is burning.

Inserting this definition of "eternal" into the other texts you referenced eliminates most of the argument you were trying to make. In addition, Matt 25:41 states that the "eternal fire" was prepared for the devil and his angels. That fire is described in Rev 20:7-9 and it doesn't even start for at least 1000 years from NOW, not 2000 years ago, and it comes down from heaven rather than being somewhere in the Earth today.

I grant that the language of the next verses (Rev 20:10-15) are a bit difficult to understand, but the final result of the various conflagrations can be found in Malachi 4:1-3: "they [the wicked] will be ashes under the soles of your feet." It's hard to walk on ashes while the fire is still burning. Obviously at some time in the future, that "eternal fire" will no longer be burning.

By the way, it's not really fair to base a doctrine on a parable, a contemporary fable Jesus used to illustrate a point (Luke 16:23). (Do you really believe there were just 10 coins in the parable of the ladies bowl, exactly 100 sheep in the fold of the man who lost one, a father restored a boy's fortune after he blew it, a farmer who was foolish enough to sow seeds on rocky places and on the foot path, a merchant who sold everything he had for a single pearl or ... well, I'm sure you get the picture?) There are so many discrepencies in the story of the rich man and Lazarus that I'm a bit surprised you would use it in the context you did.

Bob Lee

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's interesting how one can read things into a passage that another does not see. You say, "Jude also indicated that he feels those in Sodom and Gomorrah are currently suffering in eternal fire." As I read Jude's seventh verse, I don't see any evidence that the people of Sodom or Gomorrah suffered, are currently suffering, or will suffer the punishment of eternal fire. They were EXAMPLES of those who will.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.” NIV

“7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” KJV

“7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them, having in like manner with these given themselves over to fornication and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.” ASV

Etc, etc, etc………

Virtually all translations state that these people suffer or are suffering eternal fire. These references to suffering are current, not past tense. The term eternal fire is also mentioned in all translations and is translated from the Greek word “Aionios”, meaning “without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be”, Strongs.

So even though most all translations say the very same word “suffer” or “suffering” and the words “eternal fire” you don’t see that mentioned? Strange?

First let me introduce myself. My name is Daniel and I live in the USA. As I have read through this discussion it is obvious all of us can see these verses in different light. The mistake I find is that we tend to focus too much on one or two verses. All of scripture must be taken in to consideration before we can come to conclusion. We cannot ignore the testimony of the Old Testament in these matters for it is written:

(John 10:35 KJV) "If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;"

Christ made it clear that the scriptures cannot be broken, or altered. He was referring to the Old Testament for there was NO New Testament at the time. What does the Old Testament say regarding the above?

(Mal 4:1-3 KJV) "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. {2} But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. {3} And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts."

God speaking through Malachi says the day will come when all the wicked will be turned into what? Stubble, ashes. And that they will be ashes under the feet of the righteous. If I may Lobo how does one reconcile this very obvious statements with the position you are taking?

Jude to me has made it clear that the results of Sodom's disobedience was total destruction by an eternal fire. It does not say they will be burning forever but that the fire is eternal. We see the results of this fire being describe in Malachi.

As far as what happens to a person when they die, whether they be righteous or wicked Job asked the same question AND suppies us with the answers.

Job is complaining that he did not die within his mothers womb because of his presenty affliction:

(Job 3:10-22 KJV) "Because it shut not up the doors of my mother's womb, nor hid sorrow from mine eyes. {11} Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly? {12} Why did the knees prevent me? or why the breasts that I should suck? {13} For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest,

At rest with whom?

{14} With kings and counsellors of the earth, which built desolate places for themselves; {15} Or with princes that had gold, who filled their houses with silver: {16} Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light.

What happens to them that are there?

{17} There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest. {18} There the prisoners rest together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor.

All those who die, righteous or wicked now cease from troubling, there they are at rest together. There the prisoners are together, both the righteous and with wicked and they no longer hear the voice of the oppressor, Satan. All are there for it is written:

{19} The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master. {20} Wherefore is light given to him that is in misery, and life unto the bitter in soul; {21} Which long for death, but it cometh not; and dig for it more than for hid treasures; {22} Which rejoice exceedingly, and are glad, when they can find the grave?"

How can he say the wicked will be glad to find the grave if indeed it is a place of torment? Job later tells us more about this place and what happens to them later.

(Job 14:10-14 KJV) "But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? {11} As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: {12} So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. {13} O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! {14} If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come."

When will Jobs appointed time come? My bible references 1 Cor 15:51-57

(1 Cor 15:51-57 KJV) "Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, {52} In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. {53} For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. {54} So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. {55} O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? {56} The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. {57} But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."

How about the wicked?

(Rev 20:7-15 KJV) "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, {8} And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. {9} And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. {10} And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. {11} And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. {12} And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. {13} And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. {14} And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. {15} And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

As you can see AFTER the 1000 years those that we destroyed by the brightness of Christ's coming, those that were NOT resurrected at the second coming of Christ now live again (see verses 4-5). They stand before the judgment seat for the execution of the judgment. They are THEN cast into the lake of fire. Malachi tells us the results of this "eternal fire". They are burned up both root and branch and only ashes are left!

So now how do we apply all of this to the above conversation? In Jude we see Sodom and Gohmorra as an example of the above. The results? Ashes! These angels that are held in reserve are held here on this planet as I do believe you suggested UNTIL this final day of Judgment. It is then they are cast into the lake of fire.

BTW the term "pit" I did a word study in scripture and by comparing a little here, line upon line, the pit is the grave. Simply that. It is bottomless can the grave, as Proverbs points out, cannot be filled up. We keep putting people into the ground and it NEVER is full now is it?

Hope this helps
God bless
Daniel

God speaking through Malachi says the day will come when all the wicked will be turned into what? Stubble, ashes. And that they will be ashes under the feet of the righteous. If I may Lobo how does one reconcile this very obvious statements with the position you are taking?


I guess the same way you must reconcile Isaiah 66:24?

“And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind." Is 66:24

God clearly spoke through Isaiah and stated that the fire would not be quenched, meaning it will not go out. So how do you reconcile this text that seems to conflict with Malachi?

Daniel: Exactly Lobo they cannot conflict with each. They must harmonize. Malachi is very plain so how does one harmonize what Isaiah said? Well the word "quenched" means 3518. kabah, kaw-baw'; a prim. root; to expire or (causat.) to extinguish (fire, light, anger):--go (put) out, quench. Please note this fire cannot be extinquished. You and I cannot PUT IT OUT. There have been some examples of that today. Some home fires or forestfires the fire fighters are unable to control, unable to put out so they just contain. Fire from heaven I am sure will be of such a nature no one will be able to put it out for Peter says even the very elements will burn! So it does not mean it will not got out when it has no more to burn. Proverbs tells us the fire never crys it is enough. As long as it has fuel it will burn. Also please note we find examples of the term "forever" not necessarily meaning forever and forever without end. Example: Jonah in the belly of the whale or the slave having a master forever. Does that mean Jonah never got out of the whales belly or that even in the New Jerusalem if one is a slave here to one he will be a slave to that same person there? I think not.

(Prov 30:15-16 KJV) "The horseleach hath two daughters, crying, Give, give. There are three things that are never satisfied, yea, four things say not, It is enough: {16} The grave; and the barren womb; the earth that is not filled with water; and the fire that saith not, It is enough."


Lobo: Want more?

“13 You who are far away, hear what I have done; you who are near, acknowledge my power! 14 The sinners in Zion are terrified; trembling grips the godless: "Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire? Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?" Isaiah 33

How do you reconcile this?

Daniel: Again I do believe the answer is obvious. The answer to the two questions is "No body". No one can dwell with the consuming fire, no one can dwell with the everlasting burning. Malachi explains the results of such fire.


quote:
How can he say the wicked will be glad to find the grave if indeed it is a place of torment? Job later tells us more about this place and what happens to them later.


I don’t know Daniel. How can Job also say that the dead are indeed in pain?

“The dead are in deep anguish, those beneath the waters and all that live in them. Death is naked before God; Destruction lies uncovered.” Job 26:5-6

Daniel: The King James reads a bit different.

(Job 26:5-6 KJV) "Dead things are formed from under the waters, and the inhabitants thereof. {6} Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering."

Now I must confess this one is a bit complexing. We can see this from many views. To stay within the confines of my understanding of what happens when a person dies the above COULD mean the "walking dead". They are formed, they are in deep anquish under the waters. The term waters is used in verse 8 to mean the clouds above us here on this planet. So regardless of whether one is amongest the walking dead or in the grave, no one can hide from God. Hell is "naked" before Him, and even if one is destroyed there is no covering that can hide one from the Almighty God.


Lobo: Want more? Sure

“9 The grave below is all astir to meet you at your coming; it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you- all those who were leaders in the world; it makes them rise from their thrones- all those who were kings over the nations. 10 They will all respond, they will say to you, "You also have become weak, as we are; you have become like us." 11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave, along with the noise of your harps; maggots are spread out beneath you and worms cover you.” Isaiah 14:9-11

Daniel: The above is again obvious. When will the grave stir? The verse says AT HIS COMING! At the second coming the dead in Christ will stir, they will rise up at His call. Those that are asleep in the grave will hear His voice and stir! The righteous that is. At the end of the 1000 years we are told the wicked dead are alive again so obviously we see once again those in the grave astir, to rise to meet final judgment.

(Isa 26:19 KJV) "Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead."


Lobo: “15 But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit. 16 Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: "Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, 17 the man who made the world a desert, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?" Isaiah 14:15-17

Daniel: The above verses deals with who Lobo? With Lucifer, with Satan. The time will come as Rev 19 and 20 reveal all will see this one who had made the earth to tremble, who had messed with all the mighty men, turning the world into a desert, refusing to let go of God's people as did Pharaoh. They will say "this is the one that did all of that? His fate is the same as mine!"

Lobo: You see Daniel this issue is not as clear as you seem to believe. A cursory study, as you have done here, will just not do in terms of understanding the truth of what scripture really means on this issue. So might I suggest that you also study the texts that conflict with your position to get a more rounded understanding?

Anyway, thanks for your input.

Actually it sure seems quite clear to me Lobo. The above verses CAN be reconciled with the understanding that the dead are just that... dead.

Yours in Christ
Daniel