Restin wrote:

"For we all fall short of the glory of God, and sanctification is the work of a lifetime."

Do you mean it will take an entire lifetime to cease from sin? I thought true sanctification was constantly living for Christ, the result of lifelong obedience. I have never read where she, or any other inspired author, teaches that sanctification is the process of gradually out growing sin over the course of a lifetime.

The Acts of the Apostles, page 560, paragraph 3
Sanctification is not the work of a moment, an hour, a day, but of a lifetime. It is not gained by a happy flight of feeling, but is the result of constantly dying to sin, and constantly living for Christ. Wrongs cannot be righted nor reformations wrought in the character by feeble, intermittent efforts. It is only by long, persevering effort, sore discipline, and stern conflict, that we shall overcome. We know not one day how strong will be our conflict the next. So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience.

Reflecting Christ, page 340, paragraph 6
The great Teacher came to our world to stand at the head of humanity, to thus elevate and sanctify humanity by His holy obedience to all of God's requirements, showing it is possible to obey all the commandments of God. He has demonstrated that a lifelong obedience is possible. Thus He gives chosen, representative men to the world, as the Father gave the Son, to exemplify in their life the life of Jesus Christ.

Faith and Works, page 53, paragraph 1
True sanctification will be evidenced by a conscientious regard for all the commandments of God, by a careful improvement of every talent, by a circumspect conversation, by revealing in every act the meekness of Christ.

The Upward Look, page 284, paragraph 2
In the Sermon on the Mount, Christ has given a definition of true sanctification. He lived a life of holiness. He was an object lesson of what His followers are to be. We are to be crucified with Christ, buried with Him, and then quickened by His Spirit. Then we are filled with His life.

Second Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, June 6, 1878, paragraph 6
We warn our brethren of the Indiana Conference and elsewhere. Our position has ever been that true sanctification, which will stand the test of the Judgment, is that which comes through obedience of the truth and of God.

Manuscript Releases Volume Five, page 347, paragraph 2
True sanctification comes through willing obedience. We are distinctly and decidedly taught that the proper observance of the Sabbath brings a knowledge of what constitutes true sanctification.

In light of the preceding quotations how can we go on calling ourselves and one another sinners? True sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience, the result of Christ in us. Who dare refer to what Christ has wrought as - Sinner?

To go around proclaiming to be a sinner is to behave like a sinner. So would going around proclaiming to be a saint. Whether or not we are saints or sinners is not the issue. Jesus is the issue. He's everything. If our life is hid in Christ we are, in the eyes of God, saints. We are saints from God's perspective, which is the only who should proclaim us saints.

Mike said,

In light of the preceding quotations how can we go on calling ourselves and one another sinners?

Paul, one of the greatest Christians of all time, called himself the chief of sinners: "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." 1 Timothy 1:15.

Maybe I just need a clarification here, since I've always agreed with and supported most of what I've seen you post here. While I certainly don't think we should make a career out of going around calling our brethren "sinners", we shouldn't shy away from it when warranted, either.

Nor should we shy away from calling ourselves sinners, when warranted: "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" 2 Corinthians 13:5.

How long has it been since you sinned? I sinned today, speaking for myself. Though I certainly have assurance of forgiveness! And assurance that Christ will give strength to overcome the committing of that sin, if I will but call on Him for strength to overcome.

But I'll never get to the point [edit: this side of the close of probation] where I'm above being called a sinner. Because I sin all too often. Though I hope it's less and less as time goes on.

John, good points. Thank you. Would you agree that calling attention to ourselves is unhealthy? I have this sneaky suspicion that if, in the company of others, we proudly (or even humbly) declare - "I have sinned today, therefore I am a sinner and not a saint." - if we do this we are drawing unnecessary attention to ourselves, which means we are dragging others away from Jesus.

In the eyes of God we are "saints" IF we are born again and connected to Jesus and walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man. In Christ we are free from sin. See 1 John 3:9. If we should disconnect ourselves from Jesus, who is our health and strength, and find ourselves back in sin, the Spirit is quick to impress us to receive the gift of repentance, which when received empowers us to confess and forsake our sin. It also gives God the legal right to pardon us and to restore the relationship our sin severed, to restore us back to the mind of the new man.

In Christ we are free from sin. See Rom 6. In Christ we have ceased from sin. See 1 Peter 4:1,2. In Christ we do not and cannot sin. See 1 John 3:9. In Christ we live by the faith of Jesus, who knew no sin. See Gal 2:20. The Bible promises are unmistakable. Since in Christ we are free from sin, again I ask - How can we go around with the idea that we are sinners? Especially how can we run around telling others we are sinners?

Why not run around proclaiming how great God is! how wonderful it is to be free from the burden of sin! how awesome it is to walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man!

[ December 30, 2002, 04:03 PM: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

I agree it isn't good to focus on whether or not we are sinners or saints, but that our focus instead should be on knowing and following Jesus. As for sanctification taking a lifetime, I didn't mean that you would try all your life only to reach perfection the last moments. I believe perfection is never actually reached in this life. That's why Christ came to die in our stead, that His perfection can cover for our lack. If we could do it eventually why should Jesus have had to die for our sinfullness? There is a lot more to sin than we realize, and much more of it in us than we can even name. Jesus paid for more than we can ever know. Meanwhile we do the best we can to be decent people. I believe we do have to try, and somtimes try hard. Sometimes fate (God's discipline) forces us into a struggle we would never ask for even to be better. It isn't all up to us. Life's trials do much more than our efforts, to build nobility and inner strength. As converts, we get into the harness with Jesus instead of "kicking against the pricks". We should try to learn lessons from our trials and not just become defiant and bitter. Instead, we do improve and many of us become responsible, dignified citizens that even the worldly notice and respect. But even so, we live in Christ's perfection. I agree it isn't healthy to obsess on whether or not we are, or will be, perfect. We trust in Christ's promise to help us become better and to cover us with His own perfection, all the way to the end.

Restin, thank you for those encouraging words. Indeed, we cannot long afford to focus on ourselves. Jesus must occupy the center of our attention.

However, your thoughts on our never actually reaching perfection in this life deserves further study. I believe getting this point right is crucial to our salvation. As one sage said in Pilgrims Progress, "We cannot achieve what we cannot believe."

Considering the following texts what would you say about living without sin:

Rom 6:7,18
For he that is dead is freed from sin.... Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

1 Peter 4:1,2
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I read 1 John 3:9 again and it does say whoever is born of God cannot sin. So, what does it mean that I sin? I believe I was born again, and have committed myself to becoming a better person thru Jesus Christ. I recently got a lot better about undermining the company I work for in front of other employees. I think that's very bad, as it's just what Lucifer did in heaven that started the ball rolling in all the universal mess we're in. So, last week I caught myself complaining about the Co. policies again where I work. So, how do you reconcile that with the text that says I cannot sin because I am born of God? What about yourself Mr.Lowe? From reading these posts, I generally respect what you have to say and believe you are a sincere Christian. Do you ever do anything wrong? Maybe you can now refrain from stealing money from a friend, or making suggestive comments to someone's wife. But what about the other faults, excesses, and shortcomings? Do the people who live and work next to you agree that you are a faultless person? Do you know any elderly folks who have no faults? They, if not us, should be the Christians who have arrived at total perfection, if that be possible. I know a lot of old folks, but none I could say doesn't have some irritating bad habits. Again, I agree that John says those words about not committing sin, but I don't know how to reconcile that with real life. Maybe you can explain more about it.

Excellent questions. But remember, not even Jesus was considered faultless or sinless by some. So, sometimes it's a matter of personal perspective. Most people are hard on themselves and are quick to admit that they aren't perfect. Thus, when they look around at others (a bad habit, by the way), they are willing to allow that nobody else is perfect either, that way they don't feel alone.

But I believe it is better to trust in the biblical promises of God, which simply say - If we are born again and in Christ we are at that precise moment without moral imperfection. And not just in the legal sense, as important as that is. "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." 1 John 5:13.

It is so reassuring to know and believe that as long as we are connected to Christ and focused on Him and His righteousness we are free from moral sin. But I can also reassure you that when I'm not in Christ I am in one sin or another. There are no half way points. We are either all of His and free from sin, or none of His and full of sin.

"Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Rom 8:9. "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." Mat 6:24.

The fact you know of no one who is faultless does not dilute the Bible truth about those who are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man "are without fault before the throne of God." Rev 14:5. Our observations may not be as accurate as God's. What really matters is that in the eyes of God we are without fault if we are in Christ, and not just in the legal sense.

"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he [Jesus] is righteous." 1 John 3:7. "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy." Jude 24. "The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations." 2 Peter 2:9. "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Phil 2:13.

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." 1 Cor 10:13. "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." Phil 1:6.

Do I ever slip in and out of sin? Yes, of course. But does my failure disprove the promises of God? Does my personal reality negate the word of God? Nay, not at all. The promises of God also accommodate sinning and repenting. "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:1,2.

Do these promises cancel each other out? No way. Both are true at certain times. The promises of perfection, which by the way is a gift we receive from God and not something we achieve after years of trial and error (Amen, thank you Jesus), are true only when we are in Christ. And the other promises are true when we slip in and out of sin. But they don't apply simultaneously.

Am I making any sense?

The last paragraph did make sense.

So, it seems that when the text says we cannot sin if we are Born of God, it means we are covered by the Righteousness of Christ and that is only what God sees. Christ's Grace is like a tent, so to speak, that covers us and our daily actions. Under that tent we deal with our faults, and cooperate with Jesus and the Holy Spirit to change our character so that we can come as near as possible to the Christ Perfection ..that God sees instead of us. That way, when Born of God, we don't have to be afraid of being kicked out of the "tent" for each slip-up. The "tent" is always there while we deal with our personal character problems. We no longer have to fear we are out of the tent of God's acceptance the instant we do something bad, and are only let back in if we repent and manage not to do the bad thing for awhile. Does that sound like what John is trying to say?