That's not what I hear John saying. The promises of perfection pertain to born again believers here and now, and not after years of gradually becoming less and less sinful. Neither do I believe it means God looks at us through the imputed righteousness of Christ even though in reality we are miserably defective.

Jesus cannot justify imputing His blood and righteousness to hide our unconquered defects of character. Being impatient is a known moral sin, and Jesus cannot justify us while we are steeped in known sin. And if we refuse to confess and forsake our sin we are unsaved. Otherwise, salvation is not salvation. If we are saved with our moral imperfections, then what are we saved from?

Justification accommodates 1) past sins confessed and forsaken and, 2) sins of ignorance. But there is no such thing as an unknown moral defect of character if self is dead and we have experienced the miracle of rebirth. That is, no truly born again believer can ignorantly blow up on his children and not realize he has sinned.

This is not to say that born again believers are incapable of taking their eyes off Jesus and slipping back into the mind of the old man. We are always free to sin after we've been born again. And repentance and forgiveness is available in Christ should this happen.

I believe a mistake some people make when they try to reconcile the promises of perfection and the reality of their lives is that they assume victory somehow depends on their unaided ability to perform to God's standard - the sinless example of Jesus. But the good news is Good News because perfection isn't something we have to achieve, instead it's a gift we receive from God the moment we are born again (after self is crucified and buried).

We begin at rebirth where Jesus began at birth. We begin at conversion where Jesus began at conception. The free gift of the sinless mind of the new man is the "mystery of godliness" in the same sense as it applies to our Lord. Jesus Christ is miraculously born again in us the moment we receive the gift of perfection, the mind of the new man. And so long as we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man we are imitating the sinless example of Jesus, which is sanctification. Not because we or anyone else says so, but because the promises of God say so!!

Is that better?

Words are so easy to put together to sound good. But your example of the person who blows up at the kids is a perfect topic for explaining. I would learn from sticking close to that example. What if I'm a born-again Christian, but I'm having an ongoing problem about losing my temper with my kid. And don't try to tell me I'm not truly committed to God; because I know I am, for it's long been my deep, earnest pact with Him. A lot of people are up against this child abuse problem, tho, and it's as good a way as any to ILLUSTRATE just what we mean by sin, or sinless. So, I would like to see just where we stand with God and perfection when we "lose it" and put down our kid fifty times worse than he has it coming.( I don't happen to have kids, so don't worry about offending me..I just think it's a perfect point for defining what you are getting at)

Okay, here's what makes sense to me, from the "for what it's worth" corner. But first a little more verbage. Sorry. There are two categories and eight types of sin.

Accountable Sin
1. Intentional
2. Unintentional
3. Omission
4. Faithless
5. Unpardonable

Non-Accountable Sin
1. Unwitting
2. Fleshly clamorings
3. Forgiven

An intentional sin is premeditated and deliberate. An unintentional sin is spontaneous and unplanned. A sin of omission is leaving a good deed left undone. A faithless sin is doing the right thing for the wrong reason. An unpardonable sin is any sin we refuse to confess and forsake. An unwitting sin is any sin we commit unknowingly or ignorantly. The fleshly clamorings of our sinful flesh are only temptations, and do not become accountable sin until we desire or do them. Sins forgiven are sins forsaken.

Now, back to the derailed, impatient father. I do have children, albeit they're grown up, so I can relate to this illustration. Nobody likes head aches, but it's not worth losing your head over. So, how can a God-fearing, Christian father remain calm, cool and collected under all circumstances?

Jesus said, "The truth shall make you free." John 8:32. So, whatever the answer is to the secret of staying connected to Jesus it must have something to do with the truth. And the truth is if we are in Christ, walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man we do not and cannot sin. See Gal 5:16 and 1 John 3:9 to name just a few of the many promises.

Most of us are guilty of unintentinal sin when we find ourselves being impatient. For me, it is helpful to know which type of sin I'm guilty of so that I know how to avoid repeat business in future. Usually there are tell-tale signs which precede impatience - disgust, irritation, sweaty hands, red face, clinched teeth. These warning signs should tell us that we need to focus more intently on Jesus. We haven't sinned yet.

In the heat of temptation it is also helpful to know that God is not allowing us to be tempted above His ability to empower us to resist it unto His honor and glory. 1 Cor 10:13. Thus, we may know that we can successfully resist the urge to respond in an un-Christlike manner. Knowing we can win the war is necessary in order to fight the battle.

The fight involves keeping our eyes on Jesus, staying connected to Him. The fight does not involve focusing on not sinning, and nor does it involve focusing on an opposite more righteous response. We cannot focus on behaviour during the heat of the battle. The only thing we can do to experience victory over temptation is to exercize every nerve and fiber of our being to keep our eyes on Jesus, to stay connected to Him.

Sin loses all its power and appeal in the company of sweet Jesus. When we hang out with Jesus the idea of being impatient is repulsive. Walking in the lovely atmosphere of Jesus' presence makes being kind and patience a possibility and a pleasure. It is impossible to sin while we are filled with the Spirit of God, while we are connected to Jesus, while we are in intimate relationship with Jesus. It is this truth that sets us free, that prevents us from falling prey to the sinister devices of Satan.

So, when we find ourselves being impatient it is because we have left off hanging out with Jesus. We have allowed ourselves to become distracted and preoccupied with the temptation. Which is easy to do considering temptation rarely works alone. They trend to gang up on us throughout the day. But if we believe that there is no excuse for being impatient, no temptation or group of temptations that God cannot empower us to resist, then we will be motivated to keep our eyes on Jesus.

The sooner we realize and believe the truth about resisitng temptation the sooner we will walk with Christ without sin. But if we make up excuses for falling into sin, or ignore the obvious meaning of the promises of God, or twist them to mean something different, then we shall surely rise no higher than our distorted view of victory. We must see sin as something easy for God to empower us to overcome. If we daily practice the presence of Jesus not sinning will become a non-issue. And that's good news!

Beautiful logic, but doesn't sound quite like any real life I've ever seen.

Perhaps that's the reason we're still here. Jesus promised to return when the living gospel impacts everyone everywhere. But if nobody is truly experiencing the gospel then no one else is witnessing it.

Please share what you believe is the truth about the gospel and living without sin. And then explain why Jesus hasn't come yet.

It does appear that until our sins are blotted out of the books of record, we are still sinners saved by grace.

While Peter didn't continually remind everyone about what he had done (he didn't have to), and while he knew that God had forgiven him, he could not firgive himself (AA 538). With someone like Peter, that was a good thing. It kept him humble, which was typically a challenge for him.

And yet we are called (to be) saints as well.

So, Bob, are you saying that we should be called both sinners and saints?

Should we then be called sinners saved by grace, or simply sinners?

John Paulien from the seminary used the parables of Matthew that referred to the End Times (Chapters 24 and 25) and the ones in Luke (the worldly Judge and the Pharisee/Publican) to prove the moniker "Saint" or "Sinner" isn't as important as the adjective that you put in front of it.

Those who are ready for the Lord's arrival are both "confessing" sinners (see Luke's Pharisee/Publican) and "performing" saints (Matthew's wise virgins, sheep and the goats, wise users of talents, etc.).

Sinner or saint? Hmm.

". . . and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him . . ." 1Jn. 3:2.

It goes on to say those who [keep on] committing sin don't "abide" in Christ and those who don't have a lifestyle of obedience are not indwelt by God's Spirit.

I would say that I'm a sinner in the rehabilitation process -- the process of becoming a saint.

How?

Jesus put away sin by sacrificing Himself. Heb. 9:26 says Jesus "put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." To look into that deeper, it could be said that Jesus' daily selfless acts show that dying daily to self will put away sin.

So, the rehab process goes on.

It's my personal belief that there are some who have reached a place in their spiritual experience where they could be considered as having a "perfect" character (i.e., arrived at what might be termed as "sainthood" perhaps). Those who fit in this category certainly don't know it -- in my opinion, a person with a perfect character will have humility and not count themselves as having arrived at perfection yet. Even Paul said, "Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended; but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forth unto those things which are before I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus."--Phil. 3:13-14.

So, sinners striving for the prize cooperate with God in daily decisions that either put us on His side or the other side.

"Who will draw with God, seeking to set in operation a restoring power that will obtain the mastery over sin? Those who will not fail nor become discouraged in this work; who will venture to take hold of the wretchedness they see around them, cooperate with their Redeemer. Thus we may show our gratitude to God. Our sympathies are wrought upon by the Holy Spirit; and in the heart of the one who is helped gratitude springs up, and he gathers hope to lay hold upon the hand of divinity, and to realize that God is seeking to save him from sin and degradation."--General Conference Bulletin, April 1, 1899; article, "Following Christ."

Blessings, Sandra

He who has sinned is a sinner.

I would have to say we are sinful saints.