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Salvation is from sin, or what, unto what, how and when? #46302
05/03/03 09:02 AM
05/03/03 09:02 AM
J
John Boskovic  Offline OP
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
Salvation is from sin, or what, unto what, how and when?

What does Christ save us from, and to what, how and when?

What is sin?

    There has been quite a bit of communication on several topics here that are dealing with whether we can live without sinning and what that means. I refer to the topics;

    Overcoming as Christ overcame - What does it mean?
    What "Keep My Commandments" Was Jesus Referring To?
    Should Christians Be Called Sinners or Saints?
    Can We Actually Go And Sin No More?


    Some uphold the one side, that of living without sin (accountably), while others seem to be upholding the other side, that of living without sin (unaccountably). I do not know that the words 'accountably & unaccountably' are altogether reflecting the thoughts involved, but they do seem to express the differences. In both cases however, the focus is on what we do. Both seem to have the same idea of justification, and both seem to agree on glorification. They however disagree on sanctification. Both find that each other's views of sanctification make void both justification and glorification.

We all agree that fallen man needs to be saved. Thank God for that. But saved from what? It is obvious that our view of the problem affects the solution that we think is needed.

I would like to open this topic to deal with the question of 'Salvation'. Here are some thoughts.

  • When justification is considered something different and separate from sanctification, then you do not have salvation.


  • When sanctification is something optional to justification you do not have salvation.


  • Salvation is one whole. It includes all three (justification, sanctification, glorification).


What is Salvation from?
To what are we saved to?
How are we saved?
When?

Salvation is one whole. Spiritually speaking it includes all three (justification, sanctification, glorification) simultaneously. That is the kingdom of God within. Externally speaking it will occur in the future when the kingdom of God is established in this world. That is when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The spiritual kingdom within is the salvation that we wish to deal with here, for it is the prerequisite to being in the kingdom of God to come. The spiritual salvation is not dependent on what is to come, but only those in whom the spiritual salvation has been effected will participate in God's kingdom to come, when there shall be an end to this temporal state of things.

Therefore we are here speaking of the spiritual salvation which is one whole (justification, sanctification and glorification - simultaneously). I expect that some will have problems with this.

What are we saved from?
    Romans 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Mike, Lobo, James and others, are we all agreed that we are saved from sin?


Shalom

Re: Salvation is from sin, or what, unto what, how and when? #46303
05/03/03 04:15 PM
05/03/03 04:15 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
John, I appreciate you starting this topic. As you can tell from the many other threads my favorite theme is salvation from sin in Jesus Christ our Lord.

I believe we are justified and sanctified the moment we are born again. We are born again without our former moral imperfections (aka, defective traits of character). Which implies we are not born again mentally perfect. That is, we may not realize the truth about the sabbath or pork, etc.

However, I believe glorification happens in two stages, at least for the 144,000: 1) Jesus blots our their record and memory of specific sins during the MOB crisis, and 2) Jesus gives them an incorruptible body and sinless nature when He arrives in the clouds of glory.

Re: Salvation is from sin, or what, unto what, how and when? #46304
05/04/03 02:48 AM
05/04/03 02:48 AM
J
John Boskovic  Offline OP
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
Yes Mike I agree that it is your favorite topic. It is mine also. I believe it is also that of Lobo and others. May God bless our discussion here to his glory.
quote:

However, I believe glorification happens in two stages, at least for the 144,000: 1) Jesus blots our their record and memory of specific sins during the MOB crisis, and 2) Jesus gives them an incorruptible body and sinless nature when He arrives in the clouds of glory.

Your point #2 in glorification I would consider as part of the external Kingdom. As said before we want to deal here with the internal spiritual kingdom, which is now.

I am not sure I understand your point #1.

Shalom

Re: Salvation is from sin, or what, unto what, how and when? #46305
05/04/03 03:35 PM
05/04/03 03:35 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
I do not believe glorification, as it pertains to our memory of specific sins, happens simultaneously with justification and sanctification, that is, the moment we are born again. As I see it, glorification is affiliated with the most holy place (MHP) ministry of Jesus. I believe our experience in the MHP begins when Jesus commences investigating our case in judgment. This does not begin, as I understand it, for the dead until sometime after they die and for the living until sometime after the MOB crisis begins.

During the investigative judgment of the living Jesus blots out the record and memory of specific sins. To me this is the first phase of glorification. I understand this to mean that once Jesus blots out our sins we will be, at that precise moment, unable to recall the specific sins we committed during our lifetime of sinning and repenting. The Bible and SOP make this clear.

Isaiah
43:25 I, [even] I, [am] he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Hebrews
10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Revelation
21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

3SG 134, 135
Those who have delayed a preparation for the day of God cannot obtain it in the time of trouble, or at any future period. The righteous will not cease their earnest agonizing cries for deliverance. They cannot bring to mind any particular sins, but in their whole life they can see but little good. Their sins had gone beforehand to judgment, and pardon had been written. Their sins had been borne away into the land of forgetfulness, and they could not bring them to remembrance. Certain destruction threatens them, and like Jacob they will not suffer their faith to grow weak, because their prayers are not immediately answered. Though suffering the pangs of hunger, they will not cease their intercessions. They lay hold of the strength of God as Jacob laid hold of the angel, and the language of their soul is, "I will not let thee go except thou bless me." The saints at length prevail like Jacob, and are gloriously delivered by the voice of God.

GC 618-620
As Satan accuses the people of God on account of their sins, the Lord permits him to try them to the uttermost. Their confidence in God, their faith and firmness, will be severely tested. As they review the past, their hopes sink; for in their whole lives they can see little good. They are fully conscious of their weakness and unworthiness. Satan endeavors to terrify them with the thought that their cases are hopeless, that the stain of their defilement will never be washed away. He hopes so to destroy their faith that they will yield to his temptations and turn from their allegiance to God….

If they could have the assurance of pardon they would not shrink from torture or death; but should they prove unworthy, and lose their lives because of their own defects of character, then God's holy name would be reproached….

They feel that had they always employed all their ability in the service of Christ, going forward from strength to strength, Satan's forces would have less power to prevail against them….

Had not Jacob previously repented of his sin in obtaining the birthright by fraud, God would not have heard his prayer and mercifully preserved his life. So, in the time of trouble, if the people of God had unconfessed sins to appear before them while tortured with fear and anguish, they would be overwhelmed; despair would cut off their faith, and they could not have confidence to plead with God for deliverance. But while they have a deep sense of their unworthiness, they have no concealed wrongs to reveal. Their sins have gone beforehand to judgment and have been blotted out, and they cannot bring them to remembrance.

Re: Salvation is from sin, or what, unto what, how and when? #46306
05/04/03 05:40 PM
05/04/03 05:40 PM
Charlene Van Hook  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 603
North Carolina, USA
The study of Sanctification is clear from a study of the sanctuary.

Justification is a courtyard christian....One that stays in the "sin then be forgiven, sin and be forgiven" over and over again.....will not progress into the Holy Place when we will become cleansed FROM our sins and live Christ's life in His strength: Sanctification, a walk with with our eternal Saviour. Then Judgement and glorification.

Remember this scripture:

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

"His Life".....Example, His atonement in each of its phases.

Re: Salvation is from sin, or what, unto what, how and when? #46307
05/04/03 09:10 PM
05/04/03 09:10 PM
J
John Boskovic  Offline OP
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
That is an interesting view of justification Charlene.

Can God justify him who is justifying himself?

Re: Salvation is from sin, or what, unto what, how and when? #46308
05/04/03 10:28 PM
05/04/03 10:28 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Charlene, justification is obtained in the outer court and maintained in the holy place. We are born again without our former moral imperfections in the outer court. We grow in grace, accumulate spiritual knowledge and mature in the fruits of the Spirit in the holy place - which is called sanctification. We do not sin and repent in the holy place. Sinning takes place outside the outer court and repentance happens within it.

Re: Salvation is from sin, or what, unto what, how and when? #46309
05/05/03 12:50 AM
05/05/03 12:50 AM
Charlene Van Hook  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 603
North Carolina, USA
We are Justified by His blood and sanctified by the sprinkling of His blood in our behalf. Only as we are covered with the merits of Jesus Christ, and the power of His grace do we progress, step by step, to Sanctification. Staying in the courtyard, by choice...."justification alone" is a fatal mistake.

Testimonies for the Church Volume Four----PG- 299

On another occasion I spoke in reference to genuine sanctification, which is nothing less than a daily dying to self and daily conformity to the will of God. While in Oregon I was shown that some of the young churches of the New England
Conference were in danger through the blighting influence of what is called sanctification. Some would become deceived by this doctrine, while others, knowing its deceptive influence, would realize their danger and turn from it. Paul's sanctification was a constant conflict with self. Said he: "I die daily." His will and his desires every day conflicted with duty and the will of God. Instead of following inclination, he did the
will of God, however unpleasant and crucifying to his nature."

His blood must be sprinkled daily on our behalf for us to progress thru the apartments of the sanctuary.

Re: Salvation is from sin, or what, unto what, how and when? #46310
05/05/03 02:11 AM
05/05/03 02:11 AM
J
John Boskovic  Offline OP
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
Charlene, do I understand you to be saying that

1. You are justified by the sacrifice of Christ on the cross 2000 years ago.
2. You are sanctified daily (after believing the above)
3. You are going to be glorified when Christ returns.

Re: Salvation is from sin, or what, unto what, how and when? #46311
05/05/03 01:49 PM
05/05/03 01:49 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Also, Charlene, are you 1) saying sanctification is the process of gradually becoming less and less sinful, that is, sinning less and less intensely and frequently? And are you 2) saying sinning and repenting happens while we're in the holy place, while we're walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man? And are you 3) saying we will discover new and unknown defects of character while in the holy place? Finally, are you 4) saying "I die daily" means I sin daily therefore I must daily crucify self afresh?

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