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Re: What Is The Truth About The Eating Today Of Unclean Meat Such As Pork?
#46641
07/21/03 01:11 PM
07/21/03 01:11 PM
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Active Member 2013
Dedicated Member
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,102
Halstad, MN
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Why don't we look at some of those writings and see? Are there particular ones you're thinking of? It appears that perhaps 5 of the 7 Noahide laws are found in the 10 Commandments, but only one of those is explicitly mentioned in Genesis as being discussed with Noah. Would not this suggest that Noah knew about all of the 10? The reason I raise this point is that the same argument you've mentioned is used to say that Noah didn't keep the Sabbath. The Sabbath isn't part of the today's 7, and apparently proselytes of the gate were at some point forbidden to keep the Sabbath ( http://www.moshiach.com/action/morality/seven_laws.php). Regarding what Adventists taught at different points, I suggest you study the matter on your own using the Words of the Pioneers CD-ROM. I've found some statements that some make on the matter to be inaccurate. How do you explain where Is. 66 says that folks eating swine when Christ returns won't be going anywhere? What do you think about when Paul enshrines in the NT the OT admonition to not touch the unclean? What are your thoughts on when Lev. 17 takes for granted that the reader already knows that Gentiles don't eat unclean animals? What about the fact that there weren't enough of any particular unclean animal on the ark to have enough to eat?
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Re: What Is The Truth About The Eating Today Of Unclean Meat Such As Pork?
#46642
07/21/03 10:25 PM
07/21/03 10:25 PM
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quote:
Also, you seem to repeatedly ignore my comments on Galatians where I showed that Galatians says that converted Jews and Gentiles are children of the promise like Isaac. According to Galatians, your distinction between the seed of Abraham and the seed of Isaac cannot be correct.
Bob, if you will recall, Paul states that true Israel (line of Isaac) is not even considered as one of the “seed” of Abraham automatically. So if you read that text again you will see that Paul is talking about Gentiles being children of Abraham like faithful Jews (Isaac) being children of Abraham. Remember, It was Paul who made the distinction, or brought it up that Israel was the line of Isaac, not Abraham. So in this text he would not being going back and saying not Israel is automatically “Children of promise”.
So what I’m saying is that Paul is that if you read that text again you will see Paul does not say “converted Jews and Gentiles are children of the promise like Isaac”. He states “Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.”. So he is here referring to Jews as just Isaac. So in other words; “Now we gentiles brothers in the faith, like Isaac was a child of Abraham, you to are a child of promise or Abraham.
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Re: What Is The Truth About The Eating Today Of Unclean Meat Such As Pork?
#46643
07/22/03 02:29 AM
07/22/03 02:29 AM
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Active Member 2013
Dedicated Member
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,102
Halstad, MN
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quote:
Bob, if you will recall, Paul states that true Israel (line of Isaac) is not even considered as one of the "seed" of Abraham automatically.
I do not agree that Paul ever states this. I do not believe that Paul ever says that the literal line of Isaac is "true Israel." I believe that Paul teaches that "true Israel" is the spiritual seed of Abraham/Isaac/Jacob, the believers of every nation, kindred, tongue, and people of all time and ages.
The only passage you have produced to support your position can easily be understood to be teaching what I have just stated.
As Rom. 9:8 says, it is the "children of the promise" that are "counted for the seed." Paul makes no distinction there between seed of Abraham or seed of Isaac. He makes it plain that he is talking about "children of God," the seed of God.
He likewise makes no distinction between Gentile children of promise and Jewish children of promise. I do not see any reason why we should make such a distinction.
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Re: What Is The Truth About The Eating Today Of Unclean Meat Such As Pork?
#46644
07/22/03 12:24 PM
07/22/03 12:24 PM
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.........you will see that the unclean food doctrine does not have a NT basis. Is 66 is written in the context of the OT Israel and should be understood as such.
The fact is that this doctrine is heresy........
Marcel de Groot
=========
Marcel,
If you continue to break the forum rules by showing disrespect to the leadership of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, your posting privileges under your registered name will be removed and all access into the private forums will be removed. Discuss the doctrines, yes. Show disrespect, no! Any such future posts will be deleted upon discovery without any further comment - Daryl Fawcett, Administrator.
[ July 22, 2003, 05:42 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]
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Re: What Is The Truth About The Eating Today Of Unclean Meat Such As Pork?
#46645
07/23/03 03:59 AM
07/23/03 03:59 AM
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quote:
I do not agree that Paul ever states this. I do not believe that Paul ever says that the literal line of Isaac is "true Israel." I believe that Paul teaches that "true Israel" is the spiritual seed of Abraham/Isaac/Jacob, the believers of every nation, kindred, tongue, and people of all time and ages.
Perhaps I stated it incorrectly. What I meant was that Paul states the “true Israel” are those from the line of Isaac that believe in Jesus, THAT makes them “true Israel”.
“3For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, 4the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen. 6It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.” Romans 9
Notice Paul here is talking about his own race, Israel. He views true Israel as those Jews in Jesus. He states that Jews are not Israel or Abraham’s seed by race. So Paul views “true Israel” as those from the line of Isaac that believe in Jesus. So where do you get gentiles into this?
Nowhere in scripture does it say that Gentiles become Israel or “true Israel”. What you error is is thinking that “True Israel” is all of the saved or God’s children, it is not. The kingdom of God includes both gentiles and Jews and all the group of the saved is NOT called Israel or true Israel it’s called
“In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.” Romans 9:8
So the saved group are Abraham’s seed or children of promise, not “true Israel” and not the line of Isaac.
quote:
He likewise makes no distinction between Gentile children of promise and Jewish children of promise. I do not see any reason why we should make such a distinction.
Really? No distinction?
“I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.” Rom 1:16
“but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.” Rom 2:10
If Paul makes no distinction, why does he always outline Jews separate form gentiles and say “first for the Jew”?
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Re: What Is The Truth About The Eating Today Of Unclean Meat Such As Pork?
#46646
07/22/03 04:10 PM
07/22/03 04:10 PM
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Marcel:
If you are convinced that you should eat anything, then go ahead, but be Christlike in your attitude and do not allow others to stumble because of your "new found freedom." Afterall, the Bible says let everyone be so persuaded in his / her heart.
And I don't know why you guys are leaving and protesting agains the church anyway. Didn't Paul say that if we disagree on these things, God would make it right? You know, it onw message that we all Adventist MUST learn, that at the end of the day, it's not meat, nor all the other things that we force about. It's gonna be "Love." Did we show Love. "By this shall all men know you are my disciples," Not by correct doctrines, not by eating or not eating, but by love. "If you haver love one another."
What did Paul say? "If I understand all mysteries ans all doctrines, but . . . . " I think you know that verse very well.
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Re: What Is The Truth About The Eating Today Of Unclean Meat Such As Pork?
#46647
07/22/03 05:16 PM
07/22/03 05:16 PM
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quote:
You know, it onw message that we all Adventist MUST learn, that at the end of the day, it's not meat, nor all the other things that we force about. It's gonna be "Love." Did we show Love. "By this shall all men know you are my disciples," Not by correct doctrines, not by eating or not eating, but by love. "If you haver love one another."
Kent, if I may, I believe that is exactly what Marcel was trying to point out. His underlying point is that all these things are not moral issues and that the true focus of any SDA should be to love his fellow man. However, as you can see by the responses here, many believe that salvation is about eating, drinking, dancing, etc.
So if you are trying to witness to others about the true gospel, and the freedom found therein, how would you go about it if your audience felt that salvation comes though following these types of OT guidelines?
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Re: What Is The Truth About The Eating Today Of Unclean Meat Such As Pork?
#46648
07/22/03 08:49 PM
07/22/03 08:49 PM
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Lobo, We are not talking about a requirement but a result in which Jesus said more than once that if you love Him, obey Him. We who ![[Heart]](graemlins/heart.gif) love Him are desiring to obey Him. ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif) The abstaining of unclean meat is simply our love response to what most of us here believe is His revealed will.
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Re: What Is The Truth About The Eating Today Of Unclean Meat Such As Pork?
#46649
07/22/03 09:50 PM
07/22/03 09:50 PM
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That’s fine Daryl, but then how do you explain Paul’s statement that by loving my fellow man I “HAVE” fulfilled the law? You seem to be indicating that by following the law I fulfill love, but that is not what scripture states, that idea is actualy backwards or the opposite of what scripture states.
“Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.” Rom 13:8
“Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.” Rom 13:10
So Paul is literally stating that if I love my fellow man I have (completed act) fulfilled the law without actually attempting to follow any of it.
LOVE IS THE FULFILLMENT OF THE LAW! The LAW is NOT the fulfillment of love.
Lastly, perhaps you should see what Law Jesus was referring to when he stated “If you love me keep my commands”.
“10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends” John 15
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Re: What Is The Truth About The Eating Today Of Unclean Meat Such As Pork?
#46650
07/22/03 10:18 PM
07/22/03 10:18 PM
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Lobo,
Saying I love is one thing, however, what I do in response to what I say is the evidence of what I say.
Love as a word all by itself without any action or results behind it doesn't fulfill the law. It is the demonstration of love by what I do that fulfills the law.
That is why Jesus said what He said when He said, "If you love Me,.... In other words, "If you love Me, show me that you love Me."
Love is an action word.
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