This topic was created at the request of Lobo and Mark Shipowick.

What then is the truth about the Abyss?

What is the Abyss and where is it?

Thanks Daryl

To get this started I will post the following texts: Luke 8:30-31, 2 Pet 2:4, Jude 1:6, and Rev 9:1-2, 11

The key to this, I believe, is the fact that the demon in Luke 8:30 was already located on this earth when he was begging Jesus to not send him to the abyss. So logically this would preclude the abyss from being the earth, at least at that moment in time. In addition, Jesus agreed not to send the demon to the abyss and put him in the pigs. Well, the story goes that the pigs go over the cliff and die, which then released the demon back on this earth. So again, if this earth is the abyss, and Jesus agreed not to send him to the abyss, then Jesus did not keep his word because the demon ended up right back on this earth after the pigs died. This again shows that this earth cannot be where the abyss is located.

So I feel the above texts support the following: the abyss is not this earth and that evil angels (Demons) have been sent there and are held there until the end.

Now, some feel that the reason the bible seems to record so many demon possessions as opposed to modern day times is that most all the demons, accept for Satan, are currently locked in the abyss. This they feel occurred at the cross and is supported by the following texts:


Colossians 2
14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.


Ephesians 4
8 Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."

Scripture as you point out Lobo indicates that the abyss is a real place and not on this earth - a holding tank for demons. The destructive power of Satan has always been held in check by God, and Satan's ability to tempt and deceive have been limited too. And of course we know and thank God that the cross is the barrier that God has raised for us against Satan and his host.

But the abyss seems to be quite close to us. Anyone who has struggled with temptation can testify that the abyss can beckon with a hellish intensity.

And prophecy indicates that the efforts of hell at the end of earth's history in alluring mankind to deception and destruction will meet with such success that it will in effect release the forces of evil so that they have unwonted freedom to work their will through the majority of mankind in the earth. This is what Revelation 9 is referring to I think. But the prophecy goes on to show that the drama comes to a climax and triumphant close when the temple in heaven opens and humanity sees that it is Christ the Word that they have been warring against. As the saints rejoice in that revelation the wicked will say, like one of earth's great general's exclaimed too late, "Christ was too much for me".

Mark,
I don’t disagree with you, but you stated that the abyss is literally a place and then talk symbolically about it for the rest of your post. So are the things connected with the abyss as stated in revelation real or symbolic.

How can it be a real place but the ting connected to it symbolic?

Well, the demons are real, but their actions and the effect of their actions are portrayed symbolically in Chapter 9. Also, because demons work through humanity, chapter 9 gives us information on how they do this. The symbols help identify who they work through during the final three trumpets. But I don’t think I’ll be able to go into that now. If you have thoughts on that, I’ll be glad to read them

Mark, why do you feel the demons actions in Rev 9 are symbolic?

When you read Revelation it seems clear that John was faithfully writing down what he say in terms he understood. So while these terms and symbols he uses may have made sense to him, they don’t quite make sense to us, so we think they are symbolic. However, I believe only the terms used to describe the events are symbolic because John didn’t know what he was seeing. For example, a helicopter looks a lot like a locust. So if you were John how would you describe seeing a helicopter for the first time?

So I believe the events and things described by John are literal, he just used familiar terms to describe things he was unfamiliar with. So for us to understand this we need to try and see it through John’s eyes to understand what he really saw in out terms.

For example, Rev 9:3-11 describes the following:

“3And out of the smoke locusts came down upon the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5They were not given power to kill them, but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6During those days men will seek death, but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them. 7The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. 8Their hair was like women's hair, and their teeth were like lions' teeth. 9They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle. 10They had tails and stings like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months. 11They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek, Apollyon.”

Verses 3-7 indicates that the locust can hurt men but not kill them. It also indicates that they don’t harm anything else like the grass, etc..

Then, in the proceeding verses they are described as making the sound of thundering horses, inflict pain from their tails, and had a man face.

Well, based on John description and using terms we are familiar with today I conclude that this is a helicopter John is talking about. They look like locust; sound like thundering horses; the military ones launch missiles from it’s tail, and they have a big glass font where you can see the man’s face flying it. Also, the idea of hurting man without harming tress or grass is consistent with biological weapons.

So if we believe we are in the last days we should consider translating Rev in terms we understand, just like John did, to understand what he was actually seeing.

There is a great danger in automatically assuming everything in scripture that is not described in modern terms is symbolic or not an actual physical event. That danger is that we loose the actual intent of the writer and my trivialize what is actually literal.

Good point Lobo. We need to interpret prophecy literally unless there is good reason to make a symbolic interpretation. I think there my be here, but I can't give the reasons now.

Are there any parts of Revelation that you interpret symbolically? Which parts of Revelation do you think pinpoint where we stand today? Revelation 3 last part? Revelation 12 last part? Revelation 14:6 and forward?

Mark, your question implies that I believe Revelation is chronological. Well, you are in luck because that is what I actually do believe.

As far as where we are in end time events, I don’t know. I’m open to suggestions in that regard.

Lastly, as far as symbolic things in Revelation, I would have to say that the beasts seem symbolic because no such animals exist in nature. However, like the rest of Revelation, I believe John was describing what he saw. So the question is were these symbols that he saw on something? Or did God show John actual beasts that represent traits, regions, or symbols of nations? I.e. the Bear is Russia, etc..

The weird thing is that Revelation is not a sealed book. So we should be able to understand it. However, there is a string correlation between Daniel and Revelation and Daniel is a sealed but. So I suspect that when Daniel becomes an unsealed book it will also reveal things about revelation.

Daniel and Revelation follow the same pattern - that is they both repeat and expand. So the elements within a vision or section of the books are generally chrononogical, but the time line is repeated several times. In Daniel the begining and ending points of the time lines are easier to identify, I'd say, than in Revelation. Daniel is unsealed at the time of the end, and I believe that we are in that period.