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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48092
03/22/06 04:22 AM
03/22/06 04:22 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Tom and John, it's one thing to say, "Anyone who believes this is guilty of that", but it's quite another thing to quote someone who actually believes it.
What difference would quoting someone make? If one doesn't understand the principles, one wouldn't believe if someone were quoted anyone anyway. If one does understand the principles, quoting someone is unnecessary. So in neither case would quoting someone accomplish anything. The important thing is to understand the principles.
Here's a question to consider. Do you believe that God tells us, "Do what I say or I'll kill you"?
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48093
03/23/06 04:46 AM
03/23/06 04:46 AM
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SDA
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Tom, I understand exactly what John is saying. I understand the principles perfectly. The problem is that I doubt anyone is guilty of believing it. Do you know of anyone who does? If so, please quote them. If not, then it is pointless to argue against it.
Do I believe Jesus warned - Obey and live, disobey and die? Yes, of course. Don´t you? Do I believe He said - My Father really wants to kill you because He loves killing sinners, but I´m going to satisfy His desire to kill by allowing Him to kill me instead? No, of course not.
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48094
03/22/06 05:45 PM
03/22/06 05:45 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Tom, I understand exactly what John is saying. I understand the principles perfectly.
Would you please state the principles John presented in your own words? This should be easy for you to do, given you understand the principles perfectly. This will help me in answering your question. Thanks.
Do I believe Jesus warned - Obey and live, disobey and die?
This wasn't the question I asked you.
Yes, of course. Don´t you?
You know I've been maintaining all along that sin results in death.
Do I believe He said - My Father really wants to kill you because He loves killing sinners, but I´m going to satisfy His desire to kill by allowing Him to kill me instead? No, of course not.
Thank you for clarifying that. I'm glad you don't believe He loves killing sinners. However what my question was is if God's warning was, "Do what I say or I'll kill you?"
Is that how you understand God's warning?
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48095
03/23/06 03:07 AM
03/23/06 03:07 AM
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SDA
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Did Jesus say - "Do what I say or I´ll kill you"? I do not know of such a quote. Do you? On the other hand, I do believe Jesus has promised life and death based on obedience and disobedience.
I believe He will resurrect the unsaved and rain down fire upon them, and that they will suffer in accordance with their sinfulness. I do not agree with you that the fire Jesus promised to rain on them is symbolic of His glory.
In essence Jesus said - Obey Me or I´ll be forced to punish you with fire at the end of time. I would rather save you, but I will not force you to obey Me. If you refuse to obey Me the best thing I can do you and the loyal subjects of My kingdom is to punish you according to your thoughts, words, and deeds, and then allow the flames to finally kill you.
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48096
03/23/06 03:35 AM
03/23/06 03:35 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Posts: 14,795
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Did Jesus say - "Do what I say or I´ll kill you"? I do not know of such a quote. Do you? I'm not asking you if you know of some quote. I'm asking how you think of this. Do you perceive God as saying, "Do what I say or I'll kill you?"On the other hand, I do believe Jesus has promised life and death based on obedience and disobedience. I believe He will resurrect the unsaved and rain down fire upon them, and that they will suffer in accordance with their sinfulness. I do not agree with you that the fire Jesus promised to rain on them is symbolic of His glory. Do you believe the following? quote:
To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them....The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. (DA 106)
How do you explain that the same thing which gives life to the righteous destroys the wicked?
In essence Jesus said - Obey Me or I´ll be forced to punish you with fire at the end of time. I would rather save you, but I will not force you to obey Me. If you refuse to obey Me the best thing I can do you and the loyal subjects of My kingdom is to punish you according to your thoughts, words, and deeds, and then allow the flames to finally kill you.
This is better than hatred, anger, vengeance and blood-thirsty -- A step in the right direction!
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48097
03/23/06 02:52 PM
03/23/06 02:52 PM
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SDA
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Tom, it's no step at all. I have always believed it. I also believe Jesus hates sin, that sinning makes Him angry, and that He is blood-thirsty in the sense He is looking forward to day when sin and sinners are no more, which means He will be happy when sin and sinners perish in the lake of fire.
When Paradise is restored then He will be satisfied, then His wrath will be appeased. Such display of wrath will make us feel secure for eternity, it will remind us that sinning is wrong, that it makes Jesus sad and mad, and that it will be punished with suffering and death.
Throughout eternity we will choose not to sin because it makes Jesus sad and mad. We will love Him too much to do anything that will require Him to punish us with fire and death. We will also choose not to sin because sinning is unfun, it leaves us feeling empty and unhappy, it robs us of the peace of mind we enjoy so much.
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48098
03/23/06 05:09 PM
03/23/06 05:09 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Tom, it's no step at all. I have always believed it.
You've not stated it. So that's a step.
I also believe Jesus hates sin, that sinning makes Him angry, and that He is blood-thirsty in the sense He is looking forward to day when sin and sinners are no more, which means He will be happy when sin and sinners perish in the lake of fire.
"Blood-thirsty" means "eager for or marked by the shedding of blood, violence, or killing." That anyone would characterize Jesus as "blood-thristy" is mind-boggling to me. Jesus was the least blood-thristy person who ever lived.
When Paradise is restored then He will be satisfied, then His wrath will be appeased.
His wrath will never be appeased. He will always hate sin.
Such display of wrath will make us feel secure for eternity
The security comes from the cross. Inspiration reveals this in great detail. There's nothing that states that the display of wrath at the end will make us feel secure.
, it will remind us that sinning is wrong, that it makes Jesus sad and mad, and that it will be punished with suffering and death.
Those who have seen and perceived the meaning of the cross need no reminding.
Throughout eternity we will choose not to sin because it makes Jesus sad and mad.
We will choose not to sin because it is wrong, contrary to the principles of God's governement, contrary to what God Himself is like, as revealed in Christ.
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48099
03/27/06 04:58 AM
03/27/06 04:58 AM
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Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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MM, since you are so surprised that anyone should believe such a thing, does that mean that you agree with the following:? God’s law never condemned anyone. In fact it could not. It was never given for that. If the law would have condemned anything, it would have condemned sin and not the sinner; but it could not do that either. - Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
But I wonder if we understand sin’s condemnation, for sin uses the law of God unlawfully, to condemn and kill.
- Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
You see, sin creates an idea of “justice” that condemns and kills. This is why God said in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Because sin uses the law to work wrath, condemnation, and death. Sin uses the law to create an idea of “justice” that condemns and kills. God’s “justice” on the other hand, relieves the oppressed and sets the captives free. God’s justice is kissed with mercy. With sinful man, justice works contrary to mercy. With God justice is in harmony with mercy. They love each other.
God did not need to save us from his own just requirements or his own wrath; he needed to save us from sin’s unjust requirements.
God needed to save us from “sin’s justice” to His justice which is kissed with mercy. Or differently said God needed to save us from our righteousness to his righteousness; not because our righteousness was “not good enough”, but because our righteousness is deadly; full of condemnation and wrath. Why; because sin took occasion by the law to work death in me by that which is good. So by sin, man’s judgment was turned to condemnation. From this our judgment (which is condemnation) Christ came to save us from.
This is why Christ said:
- Mat 7:1,2 Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
So that which fallen nature is tied to is the condemnation of sin which uses the law of God to work wrath.
God’s mercy has its meaning because it is life; the opposite of fallen man’s justice which is wrath and death. His mercy redeems us to God’s justice which is life. God does not want us to remain in sin’s justice because we will be judged by our own judgment. Therefore he offers us his judgment, his justice; his righteousness; his mercy; that we might be filled with his spirit; and have the mind of Christ. All of which are life; eternal life.
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48100
03/26/06 05:11 PM
03/26/06 05:11 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
MM, you said: Sin is the transgression of the law. It is not a person or a god that can condemn sinners.
Sin is not a person or a god anymore than love is not a person or a god. But love is personified in God and his children and sin is personified in Satan and his followers.
Just as love has an effect on the heart and mind, thoughts and actions of its owner; so likewise sin has an effect on the heart and mind, thoughts and actions of its owner. Just as love brings forth kind thoughts and goodwill to its owner; even so sin produces condemnation and ill-will in the mind and heart of its owner. This is a law that God established in each free moral being.
quote:
Without the law sin would cease to be sin. Sin is only a sin because the law forbids sinning.
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses,
The word tells us that sin existed before the spoken law. Without the spoken law sin would not be known. The spoken law does not make sin; it only makes us aware of sin and it’s working in our being; revealing the need for salvation. It is not an arbitrary law that defines sin. It is the law of his and our being. Sin is sin because God has a law within his being and has placed that same law in those created in his image. Having so created us he did not keep us in ignorance but well informed us of it.
quote:
But the law is not a person or a god. The law is a transcript of God's character, therefore, it is God who condemns sinning, not the law.
No the law is not a person or a god, but it is the law of his and our being. Neither is love a person or a god; but God is love (love personified) and the law of love is but a transcript of his character. Just as love affects the thoughts and heart of its owner unto justification and life, even so sin affects the thoughts and heart of its owner unto condemnation and death. Therefore it is God that justifies, who is it that condemns?
quote:
It is also God who pardons and saves sinners, not the law.
Yes indeed, it is God that pardons and brings forgiveness; the spoken law only made us aware of the workings of sin. But it is God that pardons and brings forgiveness; but it is of no value to us until we receive it into our heart in faith. It is the love of God entering into our heart that sets us free from sin. This is why we need his judgment, his justice; his righteousness; his mercy; that we might be filled with his spirit; and have the mind of Christ. All of which are life; eternal life. In that way the law of the spirit of life in Christ has set me free from the law of sin and death.
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48101
03/26/06 06:02 PM
03/26/06 06:02 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Without the law sin would cease to be sin. Sin is only a sin because the law forbids sinning.
I didn't notice this before, I don't think.
This is backwards. The law doesn't cause sin to be sin. Sin is sin because it is contrary to the principles by which God runs His government. The law is a transcript of God's character. God's character is what it is, regardless of whether or not a law is written about it.
If a law exists or does not exist, God's character is what it is, and any doings contrary to God's character must of necessity be sin. The law did not create sin, or anything at all. There was no more righteousness or sin before the law than after, except in the sense that the law made things known to the hearts and minds of men, which is where the problem is.
God's purpose is to reconcile man, who is alientated in his heart and mind. God gave the law for the sake of man, to help him be reconciled. The law helps to reconcile man by making known his need for a Savior.
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