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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48102
03/27/06 03:36 PM
03/27/06 03:36 PM
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Tom, in the following quote Sister White wrote: "The law of God existed before the creation of man or else Adam could not have sinned."
1SM 230
The law of God existed before the creation of man or else Adam could not have sinned. After the transgression of Adam the principles of the law were not changed, but were definitely arranged and expressed to meet man in his fallen condition. Christ, in counsel with His Father, instituted the system of sacrificial offerings; that death, instead of being immediately visited upon the transgressor, should be transferred to a victim which should prefigure the great and perfect offering of the Son of God. {1SM 230.1}
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48103
03/27/06 05:10 PM
03/27/06 05:10 PM
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OP
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I think it would be good to consider what Ellen White meant when she wrote what she wrote. Ellen White was arguing for the perpetuity of the law. Her argument was that if the law was something that didn't exist before Adam and Eve sinned, then Adam and Eve would not have been guilty of sin, since sin is the transgression of the law. However, the law is a transcript of God's character, so for the law to not exist would imply something about God's character not existing, which is impossible. The law is as eternal as God is.
Do you see anything incorrect in my previous post? If so, please point out what you disagree with.
What I was taking issue with of your statement is that it seems to imply that the law creates sin. It doesn't. It makes sin known.
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48104
03/27/06 05:17 PM
03/27/06 05:17 PM
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OP
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We've gotten a bit off the subject of the thread, which is fine, but I'd like to bring it back a bit.
It has been suggested that we are saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath. Also it has been suggested that God's outpouring of hatred and blood-thirsty vengeance at the destruction of the wicked will secure the universe against sin for eternity.
It seems to me that it is the love of God revealed at the cross that saves us, not His hate, vengeance, or blood-thristiness. Similarly what secures the universe for eternity is the revelation of God's character through Jesus Christ. God is not arbitrary, harsh, sever, unforgiving, or selfish, as the enemy has portrayed Him to be. Instead God is kind and patience, eager to forgive, not imputing our trespasses against us. God is not willing that any one of us should perish, so much so He was willing to send His Son at infinite cost, as the risk of failure and eternal loss, to prevent this from happening.
When we consider that for just one of us, each individual me, God would have taken this risk, would have given this sacrifice, such a revelation of love cannot help but have an effect on us, reconciling us to Himself, if we don't resist it.
Unfallen angels and worlds are also amazed at such love. Thus the "blood of the cross" which reveals the length and height and breadth and depth of God's love, reconciles "things in heaven" as well as "things on earth" (i.e. heavenly beings and unfallen worlds, as well as we ourselves).
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48105
03/28/06 04:08 AM
03/28/06 04:08 AM
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Tom, I believe - “The law of God existed before the creation of man or else Adam could not have sinned.” - means exactly what it says, namely, without the law sin would cease to be sin. Yes, the law is a transcript of God’s character, but without the spoken or written law sin would be God’s word against the sinners. That would be arbitrary, right?
Back to the topic. I agree that the forgiveness and mercy of God is part of the plan of salvation, part of securing the future security of the universe, but so was the wrath and anger that He displayed against sin (i.e., Jesus) on the Cross. Please refer to the first post on page 1 for the context of this insight. Thank you.
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48106
03/28/06 05:01 AM
03/28/06 05:01 AM
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“The law of God existed before the creation of man or else Adam could not have sinned.” - means exactly what it says, namely, without the law sin would cease to be sin. It doesn't say with the law sin would cease to be sin. Where do you get that from? Does this even make any sense?
Stealing is a sin because it is morally wrong. It is contrary to God's character, His nature. When Moses broke the tables of stone, stealing didn't become any less wrong than before he broke the tablets. The law does not create righteousness. It is a description of God's character. It is God's character that defines sin.Yes, the law is a transcript of God’s character, but without the spoken or written law sin would be God’s word against the sinners. That would be arbitrary, right? It would be arbitrary for God to prohibit something id the only reason it was wrong was because there was something written down saying it was wrong. The law says what is right and wrong because these things are so. That is, the law says not to steal because stealing is wrong. Stealing is not wrong because the law says it is.Back to the topic. I agree that the forgiveness and mercy of God is part of the plan of salvation, part of securing the future security of the universe, but so was the wrath and anger that He displayed against sin (i.e., Jesus) on the Cross. Please refer to the first post on page 1 for the context of this insight. Thank you. What I'm taking issue with is the notion that we are saved, or the universe is secured, by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath. I contend it is by a demonstration of God's love. quote:
Understanding the character of God, knowing His goodness, Satan chose to follow his own selfish, independent will. This choice was final. There was no more that God could do to save him. But man was deceived; his mind was darkened by Satan's sophistry. The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God's love. By beholding His character he might be drawn back to God. (DA 762)
Also please note the following statement:
quote:
Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. (ST 1/20/90)
Please note that the whole purpose of Christ's mission on earth was to set men right through the revealtion of God. In other words, everything Christ did was to reveal God. This wasn't just a part of what Christ did, but was the whole purpose of Christ's mission.
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48107
03/28/06 12:51 PM
03/28/06 12:51 PM
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quote:
MM: I agree that the forgiveness and mercy of God is part of the plan of salvation, part of securing the future security of the universe,
The Love of God is the Law of Life. This is why we need his judgment, his justice; his righteousness; his mercy; that we might be filled with his spirit; and have the mind of Christ. All of which are life; eternal life.
quote:
but so was the wrath and anger that He displayed against sin (i.e., Jesus) on the Cross.
- Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
It says here that God so Loved us that he gave us his Son (and we crucified him).
It does not say: “God so hated sin and was angry at sin that he put his Son up on the cross to display his wrath”.
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48108
03/28/06 03:45 PM
03/28/06 03:45 PM
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TE – It doesn't say with the law sin would cease to be sin. Where do you get that from? Does this even make any sense?
MM – Where? “The law of God existed before the creation of man or else Adam could not have sinned.” Without the law Adam could not have sinned! Period. Why not? Because the law defines sin. Without the law sin would be matter of opinion, God’s word against the sinner’s word. True, sinning contradicts the character of God – but says who? God? Well, in light of the GC, more is required. The proof is in the pudding – not just God’s word alone. The law is an unbiased witness.
TE – What I'm taking issue with is the notion that we are saved, or the universe is secured, by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath. I contend it is by a demonstration of God's love.
MM – And I contend it is all of the above – and more. For example, if Jesus chose to ignore sin and sinners, to do nothing about it, then He runs the risk of sending the wrong message, namely, that sinning isn’t a big deal, that it is excusable. Such a message would be seed for future rebellion. But by resurrecting and punishing and destroying sinners Jesus makes it clear that He will by no means clear the guilty. This form of love, along with His other forms of love, will serve to motivate us forever not to rebel.
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48109
03/28/06 03:51 PM
03/28/06 03:51 PM
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John, I couldn't help but noticing that you didn't bold "should not perish" when you quoted Jesus above. You see, I believe both mercy and wrath are required to restore Paradise. I perceive the wrath of God as love, not as something evil. In justice and judgment there is security and peace. I know Jesus will not tolerate sin in the New Earth. I know how He feels about it. Jesus hates sin and sinning to much to allow it to go unpunished. That makes me feel good about the future. I don't have to worry that if it happens again Jesus will simply ignore it, or that He will expect me to just put up with it. Of course, I know it will not happen again - because He said so.
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48110
03/28/06 05:25 PM
03/28/06 05:25 PM
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quote:
MM: Without the law sin would be matter of opinion, God’s word against the sinner’s word.
MM, That is what you are proposing it is! You require God to exercise destruction arbitrarily in order to vindicate the law.
But what we are saying is that sin in itself is destruction, while God is life.
- Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses
There is no question of that reality; therefore God wants to save us from sin and destruction. God is currently overriding the full effect of sin by his love, in order to make salvation possible. When he ceases to do so, sin will have its full sway of destruction. The point is that this reality is contended by sinners and Satan; and Satan’s original contention that sin does not bring death is perpetuated.
[ March 28, 2006, 07:55 PM: Message edited by: John Boskovic ]
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48111
03/28/06 06:16 PM
03/28/06 06:16 PM
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OP
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TE – It doesn't say with the law sin would cease to be sin. Where do you get that from? Does this even make any sense? MM – Where? “The law of God existed before the creation of man or else Adam could not have sinned.” Without the law Adam could not have sinned! Period. Why not? Because the law defines sin. Without the law sin would be matter of opinion, God’s word against the sinner’s word. So you're suggesting that the law is more valueable than God's word? Does this make any sense? That if the law didn't exist, then sin wouldn't be sin, because it would just be God's word against the sinner's. But if God takes the very thing that He's saying, but writes it down some place, then that causes sin to exist? What is the law anyway if it is not God's word?True, sinning contradicts the character of God – but says who? God? Well, in light of the GC, more is required. The proof is in the pudding – not just God’s word alone. The law is an unbiased witness. How is the law unbiased? You are speaking as if the law were somehow independent of God, or greater than God. If God is biased, then the law is biased. The law is no more biased or unbiased than God is.TE – What I'm taking issue with is the notion that we are saved, or the universe is secured, by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath. I contend it is by a demonstration of God's love. MM – And I contend it is all of the above – and more. For example, if Jesus chose to ignore sin and sinners, to do nothing about it, then He runs the risk of sending the wrong message, namely, that sinning isn’t a big deal, that it is excusable. Sin is dangerous. It destroys. It causes death. God could not just ignore it. If your child got a disease, would you just ignore it?
In order for people not to get the wrong idea about sin, what was necessary was for sentient beings to see sin for what it is. This is precisely what the cross accomplished.Such a message would be seed for future rebellion. But by resurrecting and punishing and destroying sinners Jesus makes it clear that He will by no means clear the guilty. This form of love, along with His other forms of love, will serve to motivate us forever not to rebel. MM, where do you get this idea from? Here's what I read from the Spirit of Prophecy: quote:
The earth was dark through misapprehension of God. That the gloomy shadows might be lightened, that the world might be brought back to God, Satan's deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it known. Upon the world's dark night the Sun of Righteousness must rise, "with healing in His wings." Mal. 4:2. (DA 22)
This tells us that it was necessary for God's character to be revealed in contrast to Satan's. Only Christ could do this work. This was necessary for our healing.
quote:
Understanding the character of God, knowing His goodness, Satan chose to follow his own selfish, independent will. This choice was final. There was no more that God could do to save him. But man was deceived; his mind was darkened by Satan's sophistry. The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God's love. By beholding His character he might be drawn back to God.(DA 762)
This tells us that there was hope for man in knowing God's love, by beholding His character. The cross was for this purpose.
quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)
This tells us that the wicked die because of their own choice, not because of something God arbitrarily does to them. If God had allow Satan to experience the inevitable result of sin, which is death, *that* would have caused an evil seed of doubt to arise. Satan's death would have been misunderstood as God's killing them.
It seems to me I often quote these things and you ignore them. That is, you make no comment. I would appreciate your comment on the ideas express by the SOP here. I'm interesting in your thinking regarding the points she is making here. They do not in any way appear to me to be saying anything at all along the lines of what you are suggesting.
I'm looking for something more than, "Yes this is true, but it is also true that ..." It should be clear that you and I are looking at this from completely different paradigms.
The chapter "It Is Finished" discussed in detail the purpose for Christ's death. I don't see the ideas you are suggesting mentioned there (or anywhere else). Can you provide some evidence for the ideas you are suggesting?
Thank you.
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