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What is SOP supposed to do for us ? #6595
02/11/01 08:29 AM
02/11/01 08:29 AM
Edward F Sutton  Offline OP
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 2,428
Zanesville, OH 43701
What is SOP supposed to do for us in the present ?

What is SOP supposed to do for us in the future before Jesus comes ?

------------------
Edward F Sutton


Re: What is SOP supposed to do for us ? #6596
02/12/01 08:35 PM
02/12/01 08:35 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Thank you for asking this excellent question.

By SOP I suppose you mean the inspired writings of Ellen White. But it would be a mistake, in my opinion, to dismiss the fact, in the context of your questions, that God will work through the gift of prophecy as we approach the end of time.

And are we willing to accept the messages of modern end-time prophets if they present views that do not completely confirm every inspired thing Ellen White wrote?

The reason I ask this question is because in the Bible we find God updating or modifying the prophetic messages of various prophets - i.e., John's view of the battle of Gog and Magog versus Ezekiel's view. See Rev 20 and Eze 38 and 39. These and many other apparent contradictions do not disturb me in the least. I feel God has the right to adjust His prophecies to reflect changes in time and circumstances. I also believe this can and will apply to Ellen White. How will we react and respond if and when it happens?

You ask - What is EGW supposed to do for us now and later just before the glorious return of Christ? As I see it, she's supposed do for us the same thing all the other prophets are supposed to do - that is, to encourage us to walk in the Spirit, to lead souls to Jesus, to detect heresy and deception, to proclaim the three warning messages of Rev 14, and to look for and to hasten the coming of Christ.

Mike


Re: What is SOP supposed to do for us ? #6597
02/13/01 01:04 PM
02/13/01 01:04 PM
Gerry Buck  Offline
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Posts: 1,859
Benton Harbor, Mi.
If we accept what sr White said, the main purpose is to encourage bible study.
She was always referring to her work as the lesser light pointing to the greater light.

To many have relegated her works to the end all of any discussion.
It isn't.
It is, however, a guide to better understanding and learning how to study the Word.
I find it interesting that she didn't have these visions, for the most part, until after much study and they couldn't get past a certain point, then the vision would point the way.
We should do the same today.

------------------
Chose you this day whom you will serve,
as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
Joshua 24:15

What is popular is not always right.
What is right is not always popular.


Re: What is SOP supposed to do for us ? #6598
02/13/01 10:44 PM
02/13/01 10:44 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Amen Gerry,

Ellen was certainly a gifted student of the Word, but she also read widely, including non-SDA material. I always refer to her works while studying the Bible, and more often than not I have found her insights to be absolutely amazing. And the other times I discover, much to my disappointment, she didn't say anything about the text I happen to be digging in.

In those situations we are forced to press ahead trusting God to bless the church with new light. But, and unfortunately, sailing uncharted waters is not an easy thing to do under the watchful eye of staunch SDA-EGW devotees. It can get pretty choppy at times.

I find this to be especially true when studying the fulfilled prophecies or trying to reapply the old ones. Not everybody is comfortable with the dual application concept of reapplying, for example, the 7 seals and trumpets.

The normal rationale I get is that Ellen did not apply them that way. And that seems to close the matter for that class of Christians. But not all resign so placidly, some go on the attack and can make life rather unpleasant.

Can anybody relate?

Mike


Re: What is SOP supposed to do for us ? #6599
02/13/01 11:23 PM
02/13/01 11:23 PM
Edward F Sutton  Offline OP
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 2,428
Zanesville, OH 43701
The prophets are only the inspired servants of the Holy Ghost. He is the author of their messages. So further inspiration will not negate or contradict earlier inspiration, of any prophet or Apostle. That does not mean it will not go further than those prophets and Apostles went, otherwise why give the added inspiration ?

Consider the little bushman sent by the Angel to find the "three books that were really nine." Then again the Eskimo the Angel taught about the various truths received after 1844. This was the only way his people would get the information. Later SDA's finally show up.

EGW herself was radically underutilized by the denomination. With urgent heartfelt cooperation things would have went the way it seems to have been intended in 1854-1857, 1857-"the year of the million converts."

More about that later, I've been working day shift this week & my circadian cycle is confused & I think I'll hit the hay early.

------------------
Edward F Sutton

[This message has been edited by Edward F Sutton (edited February 14, 2001).]


Re: What is SOP supposed to do for us ? #6600
02/14/01 12:39 AM
02/14/01 12:39 AM
Gerry Buck  Offline
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Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,859
Benton Harbor, Mi.
circadian cycle???? ok, I'll bite, wha' dat?

I hope I didn't give the impression that I don't believe that EGW was inspired.... nothing could be further from the truth.

I'm just saying that we are to be familiar with THE WORD, we should be able to back up what we believe from the Book.
Egw told us that herself.
Like all prophets, she tried to get people to read the bible.
She is a prophet, she points to God, she uplifts God and she breathes God.

SOP is for our edification and instruction, but, it isn't the final word, the bible is.
I said it before, until and unless I read something in her books that is contrary to the word of God, I will continue to consider her an inspired prophet of God, and her books are under the authority of the word of God.

------------------
Chose you this day whom you will serve,
as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
Joshua 24:15

What is popular is not always right.
What is right is not always popular.


Re: What is SOP supposed to do for us ? #6601
02/14/01 10:09 AM
02/14/01 10:09 AM
Edward F Sutton  Offline OP
Charter Member
Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 2,428
Zanesville, OH 43701
Circadian cycle is just a medical term for sleep wake tired alert cycle as it happens going through a 24 hour day.

That's why shift work looses a company 20-40 % production or gains it 20-40% production. The paper pushers put in or remove shift work.

On nights (9 PM - 7 AM - I am always tired.)

I have never worked days in a sleep lab, and this week I am. Logistics don't create enough work for me to do it all the time, so it's this week only.

But it's different and I sorta like it. I feel better but I am getting real sleepy around 3-5 PM and last night I went to bed before 6 PM and got up at 4:45 AM feeling fully slept out and awake.

------------------
Edward F Sutton


Re: What is SOP supposed to do for us ? #6602
02/14/01 07:51 PM
02/14/01 07:51 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Yawn... all this talk about sleep is making me tired. Ha! Not.

I appreciate what you guys are saying about Ellen and the Word. So true. She is a fantastic source of inspired insights, and indespensible for studying the Scriptures.

I also am impressed you are willing to allow God to add to or take away from His prophetic utterances as time and circumstances change. It seems to me that the very conditional nature of prophecy makes this flexibility necessary from time to time.

But so far we have steered away from naming specific examples in which it can be said God has modified stuff Ellen has written due to the lapse of time that has passed since her departing almost 100 years ago.

Can I make some suggestions for discussion? Exploring specific examples might serve to help us better answer the question that is the title of this thread - What is the SOP supposed to do for us?

Mike

P.S. Is it just me or do you ever get the feeling you're in a room full of people talking all around you but not to you?


Re: What is SOP supposed to do for us ? #6603
02/15/01 01:13 AM
02/15/01 01:13 AM
Edward F Sutton  Offline OP
Charter Member
Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 2,428
Zanesville, OH 43701
Prophecy bypasses the five senses, too often the things taught supernaturally can not be expressed with the full signifigance they were received by the prophet because they go beyond the ability of language to express. But language is used to express as much as possible.

When prophecy is an absolute declaration of the future, it then is simply a present declaration of the future that is to happen and no conditions are allowed to hinder or sway it.

When prophecy is an absolute declaration revealing of things happening in the present, it is an accurate revealing of things men have tried to keep secret and God determined they would not keep them secret.

When prophecy is an accurate declaration of the past, it is absolute in it's nature because those things have already happened. the prophecy is the revealing of these hidden historical events.

When prophecy is given as rebuke to individuals, choices are given to those individuals. The prophetic rebuke is absolute in the results of the choices, but allows the individual it is given to and all others it applies to; the variables of choices according to the content of the rebuke.
********************
The same is true of prophecies of the future that are allowed to be conditional declarations of things future according to the actions of the hearers or the whole denomination. Before the civil war a prophecy was given that a civil war would break out and families then present would loose sons & brothers & fathers - ect. This happened.

JAN. 12, 1861, JUST THREE MONTHS TO A DAY BEFORE THE FIRST GUN WAS FIRED ON FORT SUMPTER, THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST MEETING-HOUSE IN PARKVILLE, MICH., WAS DEDICATED. AT THE CLOSE OF A DISCOURSE BY ELDER WHITE, SISTER WHITE GAVE A STIRRING EXHORTATION, AFTER WHICH SHE TOOK HER SEAT IN A CHAIR. IN THIS POSITION SHE WAS TAKEN OFF IN VISION. THE HOUSE WAS CROWDED WITH PEOPLE, AND IT WAS A MOST SOLEMN PLACE TO BE IN. AFTER COMING OUT OF THE VISION, SHE AROSE, AND LOOKING ABOUT THE HOUSE SHE SAID:-- {GCDB, January 31, 1893 par. 1}

"There is not a person in this house who has even dreamed of the trouble that is coming upon this land. People are making sport of the secession ordinance of South Carolina, but I have just been shown that a large number of States are going to join that State, and there will be a most terrible war. In this vision I have seen large armies of both sides gathered on the field of battle. I heard the booming of the cannon, and saw the dead and dying on every hand. Then I saw them rushing up engaged in hand-to-hand fighting [bayoneting one another]. Then I saw the field after the battle, all covered with the dead and dying. Then I was carried to prison, and saw the suffering of those in want, who were wasting away. Then I was taken to the homes of those who had lost husbands, sons, or brothers in the war. I saw there distress and anguish." {GCDB, January 31, 1893 par. 2}

Then looking slowly around the house she said:-- {GCDB, January 31, 1893 par. 3}

"There are those in this house who will lose sons in that war." {GCDB, January 31, 1893 par. 4}
******************
Another prophecy was about being "food for worms" which did not happen. The angel gave this to EGW. This prophecy was very much conditional.

"I was shown the company present at the Conference. Said the angel: "Some food for worms, some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus."--1T 131, 132 (1856). {LDE 36.3}

The reason it did not happen ????

"The natural heart is not to bring its own tainted, corrupting principles into the work of God. There must be no concealing of the principles of our faith. The third angel's message is to be sounded by God's people. It is to swell to the loud cry. The Lord has a
time appointed when He will bind off the work; but when is that time? When the truth proclaimed for these last days shall go forth as a witness to all nations, then shall the end come. If the power of Satan can come into the very temple of God and manipulate things as he pleases, the time of preparation will be prolonged.--Lt 83, 1896. {PM 389.5}

*****************
Prophecy is also given to inform, guide, unify, comfort, establish, organize, place gifts within the body of the Church to remove undesirable things and add into the body the character and presence of the Divine Author of prophecy.

1 Corinthians 1:1-11

1 ¶ Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
10 ¶ Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

********************

Prophecy is a tool to create & strengthen belief & a teaching tool for use with inner circles of disciples. The masses got parables which they did not understand. The disciples got the explanations and specific prophecies and their explanations.

Because a prophecy is old and yet true is all the more reason to believe and not assume that future revealings will disagree with it. In fact a benchmark prophecy Isaiah 8:20 is quite old but still as accurate as ever. It was given in the context of competition from the occult - sorta like our day.

Bible & EGW SOP are bench marks even in our day as much as when they were given. Their contexts will reveal absolute and conditional prophecies. If EGW SOP give me a rebuke with three possible ways to relate to it and I take one of those three choices I will Absolutely get the results of that choice. However the results of the other two choices were just as certain, but I never took them.

The prophecy allowed me freedom to choose, but once I did choose and if I stayed with that choice the results got locked in for better or worse unless I turned to one of the other offered options in that prophecy while there was still time and I was still willing.

(spell checker still malfunctioning)
------------------
Edward F Sutton

[This message has been edited by Edward F Sutton (edited February 14, 2001).]


Re: What is SOP supposed to do for us ? #6604
02/15/01 09:41 PM
02/15/01 09:41 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
I'm still struggling with the feeling that nobody is acknowledging my presence. Is it against forum rules to speak to one another?

At any rate, Edward, thank you for sharing those awesome thoughts on prophecy. I very much liked the way you separated the different types of prophecy. Well done.

But so far no one has directly addressed the issues I raised earlier in this thread. And that's probably why I feel so ignored. Would anybody care to speak to those things?

Mike


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