What is SOP supposed to do for us in the present ?

What is SOP supposed to do for us in the future before Jesus comes ?

------------------
Edward F Sutton

Thank you for asking this excellent question.

By SOP I suppose you mean the inspired writings of Ellen White. But it would be a mistake, in my opinion, to dismiss the fact, in the context of your questions, that God will work through the gift of prophecy as we approach the end of time.

And are we willing to accept the messages of modern end-time prophets if they present views that do not completely confirm every inspired thing Ellen White wrote?

The reason I ask this question is because in the Bible we find God updating or modifying the prophetic messages of various prophets - i.e., John's view of the battle of Gog and Magog versus Ezekiel's view. See Rev 20 and Eze 38 and 39. These and many other apparent contradictions do not disturb me in the least. I feel God has the right to adjust His prophecies to reflect changes in time and circumstances. I also believe this can and will apply to Ellen White. How will we react and respond if and when it happens?

You ask - What is EGW supposed to do for us now and later just before the glorious return of Christ? As I see it, she's supposed do for us the same thing all the other prophets are supposed to do - that is, to encourage us to walk in the Spirit, to lead souls to Jesus, to detect heresy and deception, to proclaim the three warning messages of Rev 14, and to look for and to hasten the coming of Christ.

Mike

If we accept what sr White said, the main purpose is to encourage bible study.
She was always referring to her work as the lesser light pointing to the greater light.

To many have relegated her works to the end all of any discussion.
It isn't.
It is, however, a guide to better understanding and learning how to study the Word.
I find it interesting that she didn't have these visions, for the most part, until after much study and they couldn't get past a certain point, then the vision would point the way.
We should do the same today.

------------------
Chose you this day whom you will serve,
as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
Joshua 24:15

What is popular is not always right.
What is right is not always popular.

Amen Gerry,

Ellen was certainly a gifted student of the Word, but she also read widely, including non-SDA material. I always refer to her works while studying the Bible, and more often than not I have found her insights to be absolutely amazing. And the other times I discover, much to my disappointment, she didn't say anything about the text I happen to be digging in.

In those situations we are forced to press ahead trusting God to bless the church with new light. But, and unfortunately, sailing uncharted waters is not an easy thing to do under the watchful eye of staunch SDA-EGW devotees. It can get pretty choppy at times.

I find this to be especially true when studying the fulfilled prophecies or trying to reapply the old ones. Not everybody is comfortable with the dual application concept of reapplying, for example, the 7 seals and trumpets.

The normal rationale I get is that Ellen did not apply them that way. And that seems to close the matter for that class of Christians. But not all resign so placidly, some go on the attack and can make life rather unpleasant.

Can anybody relate?

Mike

The prophets are only the inspired servants of the Holy Ghost. He is the author of their messages. So further inspiration will not negate or contradict earlier inspiration, of any prophet or Apostle. That does not mean it will not go further than those prophets and Apostles went, otherwise why give the added inspiration ?

Consider the little bushman sent by the Angel to find the "three books that were really nine." Then again the Eskimo the Angel taught about the various truths received after 1844. This was the only way his people would get the information. Later SDA's finally show up.

EGW herself was radically underutilized by the denomination. With urgent heartfelt cooperation things would have went the way it seems to have been intended in 1854-1857, 1857-"the year of the million converts."

More about that later, I've been working day shift this week & my circadian cycle is confused & I think I'll hit the hay early.

------------------
Edward F Sutton

[This message has been edited by Edward F Sutton (edited February 14, 2001).]

circadian cycle???? ok, I'll bite, wha' dat?

I hope I didn't give the impression that I don't believe that EGW was inspired.... nothing could be further from the truth.

I'm just saying that we are to be familiar with THE WORD, we should be able to back up what we believe from the Book.
Egw told us that herself.
Like all prophets, she tried to get people to read the bible.
She is a prophet, she points to God, she uplifts God and she breathes God.

SOP is for our edification and instruction, but, it isn't the final word, the bible is.
I said it before, until and unless I read something in her books that is contrary to the word of God, I will continue to consider her an inspired prophet of God, and her books are under the authority of the word of God.

------------------
Chose you this day whom you will serve,
as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
Joshua 24:15

What is popular is not always right.
What is right is not always popular.

Circadian cycle is just a medical term for sleep wake tired alert cycle as it happens going through a 24 hour day.

That's why shift work looses a company 20-40 % production or gains it 20-40% production. The paper pushers put in or remove shift work.

On nights (9 PM - 7 AM - I am always tired.)

I have never worked days in a sleep lab, and this week I am. Logistics don't create enough work for me to do it all the time, so it's this week only.

But it's different and I sorta like it. I feel better but I am getting real sleepy around 3-5 PM and last night I went to bed before 6 PM and got up at 4:45 AM feeling fully slept out and awake.

------------------
Edward F Sutton

Yawn... all this talk about sleep is making me tired. Ha! Not.

I appreciate what you guys are saying about Ellen and the Word. So true. She is a fantastic source of inspired insights, and indespensible for studying the Scriptures.

I also am impressed you are willing to allow God to add to or take away from His prophetic utterances as time and circumstances change. It seems to me that the very conditional nature of prophecy makes this flexibility necessary from time to time.

But so far we have steered away from naming specific examples in which it can be said God has modified stuff Ellen has written due to the lapse of time that has passed since her departing almost 100 years ago.

Can I make some suggestions for discussion? Exploring specific examples might serve to help us better answer the question that is the title of this thread - What is the SOP supposed to do for us?

Mike

P.S. Is it just me or do you ever get the feeling you're in a room full of people talking all around you but not to you?

Prophecy bypasses the five senses, too often the things taught supernaturally can not be expressed with the full signifigance they were received by the prophet because they go beyond the ability of language to express. But language is used to express as much as possible.

When prophecy is an absolute declaration of the future, it then is simply a present declaration of the future that is to happen and no conditions are allowed to hinder or sway it.

When prophecy is an absolute declaration revealing of things happening in the present, it is an accurate revealing of things men have tried to keep secret and God determined they would not keep them secret.

When prophecy is an accurate declaration of the past, it is absolute in it's nature because those things have already happened. the prophecy is the revealing of these hidden historical events.

When prophecy is given as rebuke to individuals, choices are given to those individuals. The prophetic rebuke is absolute in the results of the choices, but allows the individual it is given to and all others it applies to; the variables of choices according to the content of the rebuke.
********************
The same is true of prophecies of the future that are allowed to be conditional declarations of things future according to the actions of the hearers or the whole denomination. Before the civil war a prophecy was given that a civil war would break out and families then present would loose sons & brothers & fathers - ect. This happened.

JAN. 12, 1861, JUST THREE MONTHS TO A DAY BEFORE THE FIRST GUN WAS FIRED ON FORT SUMPTER, THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST MEETING-HOUSE IN PARKVILLE, MICH., WAS DEDICATED. AT THE CLOSE OF A DISCOURSE BY ELDER WHITE, SISTER WHITE GAVE A STIRRING EXHORTATION, AFTER WHICH SHE TOOK HER SEAT IN A CHAIR. IN THIS POSITION SHE WAS TAKEN OFF IN VISION. THE HOUSE WAS CROWDED WITH PEOPLE, AND IT WAS A MOST SOLEMN PLACE TO BE IN. AFTER COMING OUT OF THE VISION, SHE AROSE, AND LOOKING ABOUT THE HOUSE SHE SAID:-- {GCDB, January 31, 1893 par. 1}

"There is not a person in this house who has even dreamed of the trouble that is coming upon this land. People are making sport of the secession ordinance of South Carolina, but I have just been shown that a large number of States are going to join that State, and there will be a most terrible war. In this vision I have seen large armies of both sides gathered on the field of battle. I heard the booming of the cannon, and saw the dead and dying on every hand. Then I saw them rushing up engaged in hand-to-hand fighting [bayoneting one another]. Then I saw the field after the battle, all covered with the dead and dying. Then I was carried to prison, and saw the suffering of those in want, who were wasting away. Then I was taken to the homes of those who had lost husbands, sons, or brothers in the war. I saw there distress and anguish." {GCDB, January 31, 1893 par. 2}

Then looking slowly around the house she said:-- {GCDB, January 31, 1893 par. 3}

"There are those in this house who will lose sons in that war." {GCDB, January 31, 1893 par. 4}
******************
Another prophecy was about being "food for worms" which did not happen. The angel gave this to EGW. This prophecy was very much conditional.

"I was shown the company present at the Conference. Said the angel: "Some food for worms, some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus."--1T 131, 132 (1856). {LDE 36.3}

The reason it did not happen ????

"The natural heart is not to bring its own tainted, corrupting principles into the work of God. There must be no concealing of the principles of our faith. The third angel's message is to be sounded by God's people. It is to swell to the loud cry. The Lord has a
time appointed when He will bind off the work; but when is that time? When the truth proclaimed for these last days shall go forth as a witness to all nations, then shall the end come. If the power of Satan can come into the very temple of God and manipulate things as he pleases, the time of preparation will be prolonged.--Lt 83, 1896. {PM 389.5}

*****************
Prophecy is also given to inform, guide, unify, comfort, establish, organize, place gifts within the body of the Church to remove undesirable things and add into the body the character and presence of the Divine Author of prophecy.

1 Corinthians 1:1-11

1 ¶ Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
10 ¶ Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

********************

Prophecy is a tool to create & strengthen belief & a teaching tool for use with inner circles of disciples. The masses got parables which they did not understand. The disciples got the explanations and specific prophecies and their explanations.

Because a prophecy is old and yet true is all the more reason to believe and not assume that future revealings will disagree with it. In fact a benchmark prophecy Isaiah 8:20 is quite old but still as accurate as ever. It was given in the context of competition from the occult - sorta like our day.

Bible & EGW SOP are bench marks even in our day as much as when they were given. Their contexts will reveal absolute and conditional prophecies. If EGW SOP give me a rebuke with three possible ways to relate to it and I take one of those three choices I will Absolutely get the results of that choice. However the results of the other two choices were just as certain, but I never took them.

The prophecy allowed me freedom to choose, but once I did choose and if I stayed with that choice the results got locked in for better or worse unless I turned to one of the other offered options in that prophecy while there was still time and I was still willing.

(spell checker still malfunctioning)
------------------
Edward F Sutton

[This message has been edited by Edward F Sutton (edited February 14, 2001).]

I'm still struggling with the feeling that nobody is acknowledging my presence. Is it against forum rules to speak to one another?

At any rate, Edward, thank you for sharing those awesome thoughts on prophecy. I very much liked the way you separated the different types of prophecy. Well done.

But so far no one has directly addressed the issues I raised earlier in this thread. And that's probably why I feel so ignored. Would anybody care to speak to those things?

Mike

Hi Mike,

I am not certain what you mean, and what you are asking and looking for in an answer becomes hidden after a few posts, therefore, could you repeat it here?

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

[This message has been edited by Daryl Fawcett (edited February 15, 2001).]

Hi Mike,

Sorry if we seem like ships passing in the night. How can I help you feel more at home ?

What style of forum interchange are you comfortable with and what have I missed and not responded to ? Sometimes I jump in so deep and involved that sometimes I forget some of the questions asked or was never on the same wavelength to begin with.

Please bring me up to speed.

------------------
Edward F Sutton

Hi Daryl and Edward,

Thank you for speaking to me directly. I'm not a hopelessly fragile case, but it was beginning to feel like no matter what I posted nobody noticed. I guess I like to feel as though I'm not wasting my time sharing stuff no one else cares about, which is not easy to do when my posts elicit no response. Please don't feel like you're walking on egg shells around me hereafter. All I ask is that someone acknowledge the thoughts I share.

Here's what I wrote earlier:

quote:

---

The reason I ask this question is because in the Bible we find God updating or modifying the prophetic messages of various prophets - i.e., John's view of the battle of Gog and Magog versus Ezekiel's view. See Rev 20 and Eze 38 and 39. These and many other apparent contradictions do not disturb me in the least. I feel God has the right to adjust His prophecies to reflect changes in time and circumstances. I also believe this can and will apply to Ellen White. How will we react and respond if and when it happens?

---

And then I wrote after that:

quote:

---

I also am impressed you are willing to allow God to add to or take away from His prophetic utterances as time and circumstances change. It seems to me that the very conditional nature of prophecy makes this flexibility necessary from time to time.

But so far we have steered away from naming specific examples in which it can be said God has modified stuff Ellen has written due to the lapse of time that has passed since her departing almost 100 years ago.

Can I make some suggestions for discussion? Exploring specific examples might serve to help us better answer the question that is the title of this thread - What is the SOP supposed to do for us?

---

Any thoughts?

Mike

This morning upon awakening I began to realize or re-realize the main function of SOP as given through EGW.

The realization in it's simplicity is this: take the commands and admonitions and warnings and rebukes and promises and texts/ passages of the Bible - The SOP through EGW was given with her as part of Heaven's designated support personel & SOP as Heaven's advanced tutorials on these Bible subjects. In order that we the non prophets could see and follow with Heaven's eyesight & eyesalve, what the Bible says.

As the needs change or the councels exhausted in their ability to help & lead because humanity has changed or circumstances have so changed to necessitate updated testimony from Jesus, then if and only if we have followed what has already been given do we get more. (Since humanity has not changed, there would have to rise circumstances that EGW style SOP did not prepare for. More on that later.)

Here's an example :
First Love - try matching SOP details from Bible alone with our dimmed modern eyesight.

What is First love & how do you get it and / or return to it & what do you do with it, what is it's purposes & goals given it by God ?

Someone with a lot of Biblical background & loyally following the Bible might be able to do a lot, but still not match SOP. People who need the detailed councels of SOP but do not have such a background could quickly superceed someone trying to go it on their own by their using SOP to unlock the treasures of the Bible. The SOP is where God speaks again from Heaven & puts new chapters into the sum of Heaven's inspired words being given to humanity. This time for the intensive training of the Remnant People, not the general human population . They are to get trained BY the Remnant People who have surrendered to God and become His restored human support system through which to reach others.

Did God prepare councels sufficent to guide the Remnant through to the Second Coming using the Bible & EGW conduit of SOP ?

Do folks realize that a signifigant portion of the SOP is still unpublished with few outside of the White Estate having ascess at all ? I got a small taste when I used to have the data base "Whitespeed", this small data base also contained "the Adventist Apocylapse" which is all from unpublished SOP. EGW saw clear to the Second Coming & revealed details few SDA's ever got to see, much less take advantage of by following the councels given to prepare for service under those conditions.

Bye for now.

This is an introduction to my responce & I will post this & move into my wordprocessor & finish it.

------------------
Edward F Sutton

The specific circumstances of our modern life may be very different than they were in Sister White's day, but the principles behind her counsels do not change. For example, television did not exist back then, however, all that Sister White wrote about novels and theater can be easily seen to apply to television.

If one is to read carefully what Sr. White said about bicycles, which were an expensive status symbol back then, one can see that the situation is different now, and while the specific counsel not to buy bicycles may no longer be applicable, yet the principle still applies to whatever material things now stand in the same position in our society that bicycles occupied back then.

With regards to the idea of God modifying what Ellen White wrote, how can anyone who does not have the prophetic gift themselves be so presumptuous as to claim that the words given under inspiration have been changed? As far as I am concerned, that is the same as those who claim that some parts of the Bible are inspired and others are not, and take it upon themselves to distinguish between them in their own human wisdom. They are walking in a very dangerous path.

Science is constantly making new discoveries, and constantly refuting older ones. Whenever some new scientific information comes out that seems to contradict what God Himself told us through Sr. White, I feel quite confident in ignoring the scientists and following the light given by God himself, knowing that in time, scientists will likely find that they were wrong, and eventually God's counsel will once again be proven to be true.

------------------
The Lord is the strength of my life and my portion forever.

Ah, thank you Edward and Cathy for those refreshing thoughts. I really like the point made that using EGW brings us up to speed faster than we could studying the Bible by ourselves. And the idea that the principles in EGW are as timeless as God Himself.

Cathy, you said it would be dangerous if an uninspired person came along and attempted to change or modify what Ellen wrote. But how would you know if they were inspired? Wouldn't you be tempted to automatically reject their inspiration if they did modify what she wrote?

Edward gave some good examples of things Ellen predicted that did not happen:

quote:

---

Another prophecy was about being "food for worms" which did not happen. The angel gave this to EGW. This prophecy was very much conditional.

"I was shown the company present at the Conference. Said the angel: "Some food for worms, some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus."--1T 131, 132 (1856). {LDE 36.3}

The reason it did not happen ????

"The natural heart is not to bring its own tainted, corrupting principles into the work of God. There must be no concealing of the principles of our faith. The third angel's message is to be sounded by God's people. It is to swell to the loud cry. The Lord has a
time appointed when He will bind off the work; but when is that time? When the truth proclaimed for these last days shall go forth as a witness to all nations, then shall the end come. If the power of Satan can come into the very temple of God and manipulate things as he pleases, the time of preparation will be prolonged.--Lt 83, 1896. {PM 389.5}

---

How was Ellen to know the angels' prophecy would not happen exactly as he predicted? It was, of course, modified later on to reflect the change in time and circumstances.

Another example goes back to Jeremiah's time prophecy concerning the 70 years Israel would spend in babylonian captivity. See Jer 25:11,12. God promised to restore the Jews to Jerusalem and make of them a great nation after the 70 years were fulfilled (606-536). See Jer 29:10 and Eze 36-39.

However, God did something very interesting not more than a few years into the Jewish captivity. He modified His restoration promises and prophecies. We can read those modifications in Dan 2 and 7-12. But would anybody back then want to believe Daniel's prophecies?

Even Daniel had a hard time understanding them because he was expecting God to fulfill his restoration promises made through Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel. That's probably one of the reasons God sealed the prophecies of Daniel until the time of the end.

My point in sharing these examples is to ask - Are we prepared for God to modify our prophetic picture of the future? We Adventist's are very sure things will go down exactly the way Ellen has described it. But what if the USA should repent and refuse to form an image to the beast? Then what? Does that mean Ellen was a false prophet? Or could we end up reapplying those prophecies in Rev 13?

I'm not suggesting this will ever happen. And I'm not claiming to be a prophet. But what if another 300 years, or whatever, should pass and totally new super powers replace the ones in power now? Then what? Do our prophetic principles allow for new applications? Or are we so sure of our interpretations that we will never change our prophetic picture? And if not, then whose to say we won't get confused like the Jews did and miss the boat?

Do you understand my comments and questions? The issues I'm raising has a direct bearing upon the question - What is the SOP supposed to do for us now and in the future? Are we ready if God should choose to modify His prophecies again?

Mike

(Mike - I am putting your name here so you won't feel left out.)

What is the difference between Prophetic conditions and modifications ?

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

God has purposes for what He has prophecied, which can not be prevented. Some times these prophecies are allowed to have conditional choices and conditional fulfillments resulting from those choices . People are allowed to choose which way to go in reference to what God has said. But making that choice results in absolute consequences, which are only alterable through the Intercession, Mediation, and merits of Christ; if those choices involve sinning against God . It's like driving on an Interstate Highway, you are allowed to exit onto any exit you choose, but the particular exit ramp (or condition caused by your choice) does not change or modify because you have driven onto it and follow it to it's destination even though it was not the final destination's route shown on the National Map (Bible) and clarified on the local city map (SOP) .

The prophecy was not modified but allowed conditions to it's fulfillment as it was delivered to the people. Instead of following God's expressed will they chose their version of some form of compromise . Thus if possible they entered into the various conditional agreements that required God using either someone else to obey His expressed will to fulfil as He had spoken, or He begins the process of bringing them back into harmony with His expressed will and using them to fulfill things as He has said. If they could not be worked with they were separated from His using them, and He could read their hearts and their futures to see how long He could keep on holding them, before they caused their being cut off.

Consider David's various times of life before his apostasy , during it, and the results afterwards. David could no longer do what he could have done, but who fulfilled this prophecy (verses 34 - 37)? David's offspring - Jesus.

(Verses 38 - 45) David fulfilled that by his sins.

Psalms 89:
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
38 ¶ But thou hast cast off and abhorred, thou hast been wroth with thine anointed.
39 Thou hast made void the covenant of thy servant: thou hast profaned his crown by casting it to the ground.
40 Thou hast broken down all his hedges; thou hast brought his strong holds to ruin.
41 All that pass by the way spoil him: he is a reproach to his neighbours.
42 Thou hast set up the right hand of his adversaries; thou hast made all his enemies to rejoice.
43 Thou hast also turned the edge of his sword, and hast not made him to stand in the battle.
44 Thou hast made his glory to cease, and cast his throne down to the ground.
45 The days of his youth hast thou shortened: thou hast covered him with shame. Selah.

Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
(Notice He did not say the son's of Israel {overcomer}, but Jacob {liar supplanter deceiver}

Who God is, what He does and says are based upon His continual truthfulness and eternal nature of His Deity, He sees all things in every detail and understands them, therefore He does not need to modify something after the fact . The evidence that sinful humanity, inspired by all the wiles of the Devil and his angels for all human history can not cause Him to alter his plans, prophecies, or methods is because He personally does not change and the fulfillment of all His inspired words are based upon His ability to fulfil them. When prophecy is given, it is a form of an agreement or contract or covenant delivered to people giving them opportunity to enter into it or stand apart from it. When conditions are given to the prophecy or within the prophecy, the requirements and effects of those conditions are absolute, even though tests were included within this prophecy. The passing or failing of those tests or conditions determined whether the people would receive this covenant within this prophecy and then God would fulfil it, or they would reject the terms of the covenant within the prophecy and God would reject fulfilling it to or through them. No evidence is yet found that God modifies prophecy, just the opposite. God adds conditions and implied covenants into prophecy thus keeping the nature of the prophecy absolute, even though the obedience of the people was relative (here today and gone tomorrow) .

Matthew 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Jesus always did only the Father's will . He was never a loose cannon. His fidelity becomes the ratification and surety or assurance of the absolute nature of prophecy, and His wisdom sees the need of placing conditions when necessary within prophecy and enforcing the outcomes of the choices taken, and interceding and mediating to fulfill the over riding prophecy made to Him by His Father if people will enter into that covenant.

That prophecy being -
"Isaiah 53:
1 ¶ Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 ¶ Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 ¶ Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Romans 3:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Luke 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

Matthew 26:42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

"If the church will put on the robe of Christ's righteousness, withdrawing from all allegiance with the world, there is before her the dawn of a bright and glorious day. God's promise to her will stand fast forever. He will make her an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations. Truth, passing by those who despise and reject it, will triumph. Although at times apparently retarded, its progress has never been checked. When the message of God meets with opposition, He gives it additional force, that it may exert greater influence. Endowed with divine energy, it will cut its way through the strongest barriers and triumph over every obstacle. {AA 601.1}

What sustained the Son of God during His life of toil and sacrifice? He saw the results of the travail of His soul and was satisfied. Looking into eternity, He beheld the happiness of those who through His humiliation had received pardon and everlasting life. His ear caught the shout of the redeemed. He heard the ransomed ones singing the song of Moses and the Lamb. {AA 601.2}

We may have a vision of the future, the blessedness of heaven. In the Bible are revealed visions of the future glory, scenes pictured by the hand of God, and these are dear to His church. By faith we may stand on the threshold of the eternal city, and hear the gracious welcome given to those who in this life co-operate with Christ, regarding it as an honor to suffer for His sake. As the words are spoken, "Come, ye blessed of My Father," they cast their crowns at the feet of the Redeemer, exclaiming, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing.

. . . Honor, and glory, and power, be unto Him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever." Matthew 25:34; Revelation 5:12, 13. {AA 601.3}

The Father promised Jesus - victory & victorious children through Him to be with Him forever. That is the over riding goal of all prophecy and that is why conditions are put into prophecy, so sinful humanity can still be worked with , through being brought into harmony with revealed prophecy and not cut off ; if they can be reached and brought to conform to God's will and be covered by the merits of Jesus .

There is a difference in modifying prophecy after the fact and adding conditions before hand. Perhaps the word modify was a poor choice for it suggests that prophecy and it's truths are relative instead of absolute and built with conditions of reception and fulfilment the effects of which are also absolute.

God has an absolute thing in reserve also, and it places a limit upon human time on Earth, before the Second Coming. Conditions were placed into the prophecies of the Second Coming and SDA's of past generations have activated the conditions that created delay. However stopping the Second Coming is impossible and world conditions suggest the delay phase is running out and global ability to support human life is receeding faster and faster testifing to the receeding of the personal presence of the Holy Ghost from our world. These things in similar but not exactly the same fashion happened just before the flood in Noah's day.

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

Acts 17:
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

We are running out of time to keep on doing our own things while ignouring God's things, is what the evidence is saying.

------------------
Edward F Sutton

[This message has been edited by Edward F Sutton (edited February 17, 2001).]

Edward,

Thanx for responding to the points I shared. I very much agree with the point you made about the inherent conditionality of prophecy. Whether explicit or implied it seems to me that all prophecy is instinctively conditional. Although conditional it also seems to be true that they are nevertheless inevitable.

There also seems to be at least a couple underlying aspects of prophecy that is true across the board. And that is there seems to be principles built into any given prophecy that do not change or get modified regardless of the changing times and circumstances due to certain conditions that were not met or whatever. The common adage - History repeats itself - probably explains this aspect of prophecy.

However, there is another aspect of prophecy that seems to be time dated, that is, locked into a specific time and place. And that would be the particular details of the original or primary intent of the prophecy. Those details do not have the power to be fulfilled exactly the way they were first given, if the original circumstances are passed over for whatever reason, simply because they pertained to a specific time and people.

You wrote:

quote:

---

No evidence is yet found that God modifies prophecy, just the opposite. God adds conditions and implied covenants into prophecy thus keeping the nature of the prophecy absolute, even though the obedience of the people was relative (here today and gone tomorrow).

---

quote:

---

There is a difference in modifying prophecy after the fact and adding conditions before hand. Perhaps the word modify was a poor choice for it suggests that prophecy and it's truths are relative instead of absolute and built with conditions of reception and fulfilment the effects of which are also absolute.

---

I agree that the underlying principle of a prophecy is unchanging, and will eventually be fulifilled in principle regardless of how many generations forfeit the fulfillment because they failed to meet the built in and sometimes unstated conditions.

But the same isn't always true of the specific details and particulars of the original prophecy. Several examples have already been shared in previous posts. Most noteable is the prophecy of the battle of Gog and Magog. See Eze 38 & 39. Wouldn't you agree that the details of this prophecy will never be fulfilled exactly the way they were pictured in Ezekiel? (please reply).

It is in this sense that I suggest God modifies prophecy to accommodate changes in time and circumstances. The overall story line or principle of the prophecy remains unchanged, however, changes in time and circumstances requires certain modifications to reflect the new situation.

Another good example involves the entire dynamics of the Restoration Promises and Prophecies. All those prophecies recorded in Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and several other places will never be fulfilled exactly the way they are described in the Old Testament. Massive modifications regarding the specific details have been ordained by God due to the fact the nation of Israel failed to fulfill the conditions of fulfillment.

Just read some of the descriptions of the new earth as originally envisioned for post-babylonian Israel in the Old Testament. Take the last three verses of the book of Isaiah. Every sabbath the Jews would have enjoyed a nice walk in the country looking upon the dead bodies of their fallen enemies.

In the New Testament those prophecies have been seriously worked over by God. And to be honest, I'm not going to miss those things that have been edited and modified. Can you blame me? Although the OT prophecies will be fulfilled in principle, it is obvious they will not be fulfilled in every particular.

So, what is the SOP of prophecy supposed to do for us now and later? Well, I think we can all agree that the Spirit - the Holy Spirit - of prophecy reserves the right to modify prophecy to reflect changes in time and circumstances if and when people and places fail to met the conditions of fulfillment.

This is not to imply that God was taken by surprise when the conditions were not met. Not at all. God knows the end from the beginning. So then another good question to ask at this point is - Why did God prophesy one thing when He knew good and well it would turn out different in the final analysis?

Well, would it have turned out that way in the end if He hadn't prophesied it that way in the beginning? Look at the story of Jonah for example. Would the Ninevites have repented in sackcloth and ashes if God hadn't sent Jonah with a message of impending doom? Apparently nothing else was working. Does this imply God issued an idle threat or a kind of white lie? Not at all. Because although the particulars concerning time (the 40 days of probation) were not fulfilled the principle of the prophecy was fulfilled some 200 years later when the Medes and Babylonians ransacked Nineveh. See Nahum and Zephaniah.

Anyhow, I would appreciate a direct response to the thoughts I shared here.

Mike

Hi all,

Going back to one of Ed's original questions, What is the SOP supposed to do for us in the present?

In my own personal study using the CD, I've found that when reading the results of any of my searches, within 5 or 6 hits, I'm being convicted on something.

This gives me great hope and comfort, as I realize that her writings are still God's voice to us today and He gave them to us for this very reason... to show and convict us of what we need to surrender to Him that is keeping us from reflecting His image perfectly.

To me, this is what I term the Judgment of the Living... being convicted, converted and cleansed of sin. She calls it a "painful detachment and painful re-attachment"... and it is that for sure.

But, oh the JOY and GLADNESS that comes as a result of my total surrender of each part of the world in my life as I am shown it thru her writings.

She is one person who will be getting a BIG hug from me when I see her in person

------------------
joy b2u,
karen
________________________
Look up!!! He's coming!

Hello Mike

Never mind the "eggshells" you mentioned a few posts ago...I have a question for you!

In the first post you made in this thread, you mentioned "apparent contradictions" in the Bible.

You later mentioned the 70 years prophecy, in two places, then how Dan 7, 8, 9 "modified" this 70 year prophecy.

Can you be more specific, in explaining what you mean by "apparent contradictions," and "modified?"

I can be a little dense when there is a lot of info coming at me, and as I read all the info developing on this thread, I may have missed the point.

I really like what sister karen posted above...the SOP, atleast for me, has been instrumental in "convicting" me on various points of Scripture.

In my mind, there are no contradictions in Scripture, or in SOP. Paradoxes, yes. Questions, yes. Disagreements...yes. But contradictions? Usually, when Prov.4:18 starts happening, and new light arrives, it simply adds to, or expands upon a previous point of belief. Notice, I said "belief," and not "Truth."

Not all points of belief, are necessarily Truth, until we are confronted by the Holy Spirit, and the Word of God, and convicted of the mind of God in the matter in question.

The Word of God "discerns" the thoughts and intents of the heart," (Heb.4:12), and the SOP can be instrumental in revealing some of these thoughts and intents.

Mike you have a lot of questions, but they go to another topic all together so I posted another topic along those lines (the nature of prophecy and fulfillment and SDA understanding), and resume the topic posted here.

Feel free to copy & paste your prior questions there, but please shorten them as you see fit to not create a lot of redundent posting. Resuming the topic.

What is SOP supposed to do for us ?

------------------
Edward F Sutton

[This message has been edited by Edward F Sutton (edited February 18, 2001).]

Edward,

Great idea. I was working too hard to fit some of my thoughts under the heading of this thread. I do try to stay on task, not an uneasy thing for an ex-hyper active child (and still struggling).

And David,

I'll address the questions you posed here in the new thread Edward created. I'll see you there, okay?

As for this thread I'd like to add my gratitude for Ellen's ministry along with all others posted here. To this day I still consult her writings as I dig deeper and deeper into the rich viens of truth hidden within the sacred pages of Holy Writ. And although I run into frustrating ocassions where her inspired pen runs dry I am never totally left alone because where she is silent I find her pointing me away from herself and to Jesus, the glorious fountain of truth that never runs dry.

Mike