What does prophecy (both Bible and EGW)say it is ? What is it's nature ?

Fulfillment of prophecy - how do we know when it's right or not ? In other words what interpretation do we give it, futurist, critical, historical-critical, historical gramatical, a new variation, or just read the Bible as is and let SOP given by God through EGW be the interpretation ?

What is SDA understanding of prophecy as it has been written down and accepted throughout our history, what do the actual documents say and have we changed ?

Keep it as simple as possible and practical, and give documentation, and stay on topic please.

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Edward F Sutton

NOTE: this post was copied and pasted from the thread entitled - What is SOP supposed to do for us?
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Edward,

Thanx for responding to the points I shared. I very much agree with the point you made about the inherent conditionality of prophecy. Whether explicit or implied it seems to me that all prophecy is instinctively conditional. Although conditional it also seems to be true that they are nevertheless inevitable.

There also seems to be at least a couple underlying aspects of prophecy that is true across the board. And that is there seems to be principles built into any given prophecy that do not change or get modified regardless of the changing times and circumstances due to certain conditions that were not met or whatever. The common adage - History repeats itself - probably explains this aspect of prophecy.

However, there is another aspect of prophecy that seems to be time dated, that is, locked into a specific time and place. And that would be the particular details of the original or primary intent of the prophecy. Those details do not have the power to be fulfilled exactly the way they were first given, if the original circumstances are passed over for whatever reason, simply because they pertained to a specific time and people.

You wrote:

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No evidence is yet found that God modifies prophecy, just the opposite. God adds conditions and implied covenants into prophecy thus keeping the nature of the prophecy absolute, even though the obedience of the people was relative (here today and gone tomorrow).
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There is a difference in modifying prophecy after the fact and adding conditions before hand. Perhaps the word modify was a poor choice for it suggests that prophecy and it's truths are relative instead of absolute and built with conditions of reception and fulfilment the effects of which are also absolute.
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I agree that the underlying principle of a prophecy is unchanging, and will eventually be fulifilled in principle regardless of how many generations forfeit the fulfillment because they failed to meet the built in and sometimes unstated conditions.

But the same isn't always true of the specific details and particulars of the original prophecy. Several examples have already been shared in previous posts. Most noteable is the prophecy of the battle of Gog and Magog. See Eze 38 & 39. Wouldn't you agree that the details of this prophecy will never be fulfilled exactly the way they were pictured in Ezekiel? (please reply).

It is in this sense that I suggest God modifies prophecy to accommodate changes in time and circumstances. The overall story line or principle of the prophecy remains unchanged, however, changes in time and circumstances requires certain modifications to reflect the new situation.

Another good example involves the entire dynamics of the Restoration Promises and Prophecies. All those prophecies recorded in Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and several other places will never be fulfilled exactly the way they are described in the Old Testament. Massive modifications regarding the specific details have been ordained by God due to the fact the nation of Israel failed to fulfill the conditions of fulfillment.

Just read some of the descriptions of the new earth as originally envisioned for post-babylonian Israel in the Old Testament. Take the last three verses of the book of Isaiah. Every sabbath the Jews would have enjoyed a nice walk in the country looking upon the dead bodies of their fallen enemies.

In the New Testament those prophecies have been seriously worked over by God. And to be honest, I'm not going to miss those things that have been edited and modified. Can you blame me? Although the OT prophecies will be fulfilled in principle, it is obvious they will not be fulfilled in every particular.

So, what is the SOP of prophecy supposed to do for us now and later? Well, I think we can all agree that the Spirit - the Holy Spirit - of prophecy reserves the right to modify prophecy to reflect changes in time and circumstances if and when people and places fail to met the conditions of fulfillment.

This is not to imply that God was taken by surprise when the conditions were not met. Not at all. God knows the end from the beginning. So then another good question to ask at this point is - Why did God prophesy one thing when He knew good and well it would turn out different in the final analysis?

Well, would it have turned out that way in the end if He hadn't prophesied it that way in the beginning? (please reply). Look at the story of Jonah for example. Would the Ninevites have repented in sackcloth and ashes if God hadn't sent Jonah with a message of impending doom?

Apparently nothing else was working. Does this imply God issued an idle threat or a kind of white lie? Not at all. Because although the particulars concerning time (the 40 days of probation) were not fulfilled - the principle of the prophecy was fulfilled some 200 years later when the Medes and Babylonians ransacked Nineveh. See Nahum and Zephaniah.

Anyhow, I would appreciate a direct response to the thoughts I shared here.

Mike

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I shortened those "-----" lines.

[This message has been edited by Daryl Fawcett (edited February 19, 2001).]

Hello David,

In the other post you asked - In what way do you perceive "apparent contradictions" in Bible prophecy?

Good question. Thank you for creating this opportunity to clarify what I meant. First of all let me say I agree with you in that the Bible never truly contradicts itself in a way that even remotely unsettles the overall truthfulness about God's ultimate plan to save us from sin and restore Paradise lost.

However, before I provide an answer to your question, let me point out that the Bible is full of what I like to call "inspired discrepancies." Atheists have done a good job of listing them, but the best example is Jesus' prediction concerning Peter's thrice repeated denial relative to how many times the cock crowed.

Matthew, Luke and John all agree that Jesus said that before the cock crows Peter will have denied the Lord three times. See Mat 26:34,74,75 and Luke 22:34,60,61 and John 13:38; 18:27. But both Mark and Ellen agree that Jesus said before the cock crows twice Peter will have denied the Lord thrice. See Mark 14:30,68,72 and DA 712.

People have attempted to explain this obvious discrepancy, but the fact remains the different accounts do not agree. There are other ones that can be harmonized, i.e., Judas' hanging and his bowels bursting asunder. See Mat 27:5 and Acts 1:18. Clearly the rope broke and he fell to the ground. No discrepancy there.

I call the ones that cannot be made to harmonize "inspired discrepancies" because God obviously allowed them to exist, seeing He could have prevented it, thus I am led to believe He suffered them to test our faith and alligiance - what Ellen calls "hooks" to hang our doubts on if we so choose. See GC 527.

Now, back to apparent prophetic contradictions. I call them "apparent" because they are not truly contradictions. But when God chooses to update or modify a prophecy, based on changing time and circumstances, it can appear to the person looking for hooks to hang his doubts on that God predicted something that didn't happen and He had to modify it to save face.

But rather proving God a fake, it goes to show just how in control He really is. Because even though there are times when certain details of prophecy have to be modified, the overall picture or principle is accurate no matter when it is actually fulfilled. This adaptable aspect of prophecy convinces me of their divine and infallible origin.

Regarding Jeremiah's 70 year prophecy and Daniel's prophecies - the point I was trying to make is that God modified Jeremiah's post-babylonian restoration promises, following the end of 70 years of captivity, based on His ability to forsee Israel's failure to meet the conditions for their fulfillment.

The modification involves those predictions in Daniel that picture Israel under several sequential kingdoms until her final undoing in 34 AD, rather than prospering handsomely in Jerusalem as first envisioned in the restoration promises recorded in Jeremiah and other places.

At any rate, my point in light of this thread is that one of the many characteristics of prophecy is its fluid flexibility, its ability to accommodate a fulfillment any time and under a myriad of circumstances. This flexibilty does not undermine the reliability of prophecy or its trustworthiness, but instead it plainly says that God's word will not return unto Him void. No matter how many times a prophecy passes over generation after generation it will inevitably be fulfilled - perhaps not in every particular, but certainly in every principle.

Well, what thinkest thou?

Mike

Hello,

How we are doing here?

Mike

Hello Everyone,

My personal observations have led me to believe that prophecy is an expression of God's character and sovereignty. He declares the future affairs of human history not as an inactive bystander but as an active agent.

I do not find God sitting around waiting for nature to take its course. But rather I see God's active participation the reason why things unfold as they do. Otherwise if let to itself human history would have ended with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.

As I see it, God manipulates the affairs and events of history to ensure it plays out in a way that guarantees the safety and security of the everyone concerned both here and in heaven. God does all of this without violating the freedom of choice. We may manage our choices, but God manages the consequences.

History is tailor-made compliments of God. Jesus and Job are excellent examples of how the sovereignty of God impacts history. If God were not in control then in the end He could not cite His power and sovereignty as evidence of His trustworthiness. If history was left to fate or chance then God cannot offer Himself as a wise, loving and caring heavenly Father capable of ensuring our peace and happiness throughout eternity.

Therefore the nature of prophecy and its fulfillment is a reflection of the character and sovereignty of God and consequently His trustworthiness. Thus, the SDA understanding and application of prophecy must be viewed in light of what we believe about the character and sovereignty of God Himself.

Does prophecy indicate that God is in control of the great controversy? Or does it indicate that human and divine history is the victim of fate and chance? Who is in control choice or God?

Mike

Hello, is any one out there? I'm the only one who posted anything since the 18th of Feb. Hey Moderator, is this thread closed?

Mike

The phenomenon is probably - topic fatigue and activity ebbs and flows. No closed sign up, just that the topic gets little or no activity when people don't get their intrests adressed by any topic or they get tired .

What I have noticed as a general trend is that if too little Bible & SOP is present in a discussion, and human philosophy and / or theology probably will not hold a long intrest. Human philosophy and human theology can not meet human needs in a practical manner by them selves. Only Inspiration can do that. So there is one reason people get tired of the thread and focus elsewhere. Another is that they just want variety.

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Edward F Sutton

And sometimes we are simply too busy elsewhere to give any topic, or even the forum itself, the time it takes to put together the right words to express our thoughts.

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The Lord is the strength of my life and my portion forever.

Edward,

Without coming right out and saying that I do not use enough Bible and SOP to maintain enough interest in my postings you have nevertheless confirmed what I already suspected. I have long felt that the small group of people who are active on MSDAOL do not appreciate people like myself and Daniel whose thoughts and ideas do not agree with their own.

And rather than coming right out and saying it they just ignore the things I post, at least for the most part. Which I find immature and unrewarding. I do appreciate the peole who do respond. If we cannot discuss truth beyond the confines of what has already been revealed then how can we expect God to share new light if we tend to shy away from anything new? To reject new light is to say that we alrady have all the light God intends to share.

I will probably continue to share things on MSDAOL but I will not be surprised if I get little to no response. Because who knows how many people are being blessed in spite of those who are threatened or dissatisfied with it?

Mike

Mike,

Edward really only speaks for himself, and perhaps for his wife as well. Do not automatically assume that everyone here feels the same way. Personally, I am very interested in discussing issues with those who see things differently than I do, even more than with those who agree with me, and in understanding why they have come to the conclusions they have. And I don't need a lot of Bible and SOP quotes to keep me interested. In fact, long lists of them usually make me lose interest, because I can read them for myself, and have, many times before. Since I am already familiar with so many of them, I'm more interested in reading what you have to say about them than in reading them here. A short verse or quote sufficient to jog my memory and point me in the direction the poster wishes to take suits my taste much better.

There are many different types of people here, and we don't all like the same things. Each of us will participate in our own particular style, and in the threads that most interest us. Just because some may disagree with you and others don't seem to respond, does not mean that no one is interested in hearing what you have to say. I find many of the things you have to say very interesting, even though I don't always respond.

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The Lord is the strength of my life and my portion forever.