In another topic, someone said that a lack of marriage in heaven was "supposed."

quote:

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When people rise from the dead, they will not marry, nor will they be given to someone to marry. They will be like the angels in heaven.
Matthew 22:30 NCV

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quote:

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But those who will be worthy to be raised from the dead and live again will not marry, nor will they be given to someone to marry.
Luke 20:35 NCV

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What do we think? Will there be marriage in heaven, on the new earth, or after we are resurrected? Do angels marry?

Where Adam and Eve married before sin? Is the new earth going back to the way of life before they fell or is God planing something new?

/Thomas

Even though Adam and Ever were not married, they were designated only for each other. In the situation that Jesus is responding to, in both verses, there would be quite a mess if there were designated couples in heaven. Wondering if there are designated couples or marriage would inevitably lead us to the same question those who were trying to trick Jesus asked.

Witch husband would she be with?

Weather there is marriage is not a concern of mine because I have faith that if there is not marriage then there will be something much better, this is coming from someone who has just celebrated 25 years of a most excellent marriage. (To the same women even!)

Redfog

Adam and Eve were married by God in an official ceremony. The Bible is very clear about that. In fact, Jesus said that God gave the sermon. "Have you not read," Jesus said, "that He who made them at the beginning made them male and female and said (and this is the summary of the sermon) -- For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh --? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate." Mat. 19:4-6

But marriage was for the express purpose of procreation and therefore would be old-fashioned in heaven. When Jesus returns in glory, the number of the children of God would have been reached. Humanity is really Divinely appointed surrogacy. John 3:3

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Before sin, be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth.
Rise from the dead, they will not marry.

When the saved return to the earth, will they no longer multiply, or just not marry?

Both.

Why do you suppose the statement, fill the earth, is not for the new earth? What has changed?

What has changed is that the New Earth will already be populated with an adequate number of redeemed human beings.

So we're past filled, then!

Which then leads to support of the idea that we are over populated and some should be eliminated. I think it was Bill Gates said 5 million?

I didn't say we are "past filled".

God doesn't "past filled" anything or anyone.

The earth is far from being over-populated for its size. Right now, according to PHYS.ORG, "water makes up about 71% of the Earth's surface, while the other 29% consists of continents and islands." Besides, of that 29 percent, a sizable portion is uninhabited desserts and forests. We have a very, very long way to go yet to fill a planet without seas to capacity: 10 billion is a mere fraction. Rev. 21:1

With regards to food distribution, if everyone were content and grew their own, not sought to make hefty profits and shared of their blessings, this would be paradise right now. But men are greedy! "Woe to those who join house to house. They add field to field till there is no place where they may dwell alone in the midst of the land!" Is. 5:8

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If one assumes that those who are saved are less than the population at any time, in fact, only a small fragment,

And, if one assumes that the percentage who are saved are less than the population growth rate,

Then, if "the New Earth will already be populated with an adequate number of redeemed human beings",

Then, it would follow that we are currently, in fact, at any past time, past filled with those who are not saved.


The only way for the redeemed to meet the adequate number for the earth would be if the percentage of redeemed should exceed the population growth rate. And even then, it would take a certain amount of time for that accumulating number to exceed the total present population.

Wikipedia claims the 2017 population growth rate to be around 83 million annually, or 1.1% per year. I suppose it is possible that 83 million each year are among those to be redeemed.

What do you think?

Are you forgetting that the redeemed will consist of the living saints and the resurrected saints from Adam to the 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ.

That will add up to a multitude that no man can number, that only God can number.

SDA have been going around saying that the second Advent is just around the corner. Perhaps what you have it hit upon is an argument that counters their midnight cries. Peter says, "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is long-suffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." 1 Pet. 3:9. It is obvious that God is waiting over many generations (a thousand years?) which means that it is a number He is aiming for, just like parents express a desire for a certain number of children. But what is the constraining factor, you ask? The size of the earth? I think not.

Jesus said, "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. [Up above and beyond, are many planets. I'm going to prepare one for you. And I will come again and take you there.]" John 14:1-3. I paraphrase. Let not your heart be troubled, indeed.

But concerning multiplying in heaven. When God created Adam, he said that it is not good that he should be alone on this massive earth! But how should he multiply? So God created marriage for that purpose. Marriage enables multiplication. Without it, that which is, remains as is. And there'll be no marriage in heaven, so ....

NO MULTIPLICATION (addition, division or subtraction). The New Jerusalem is a perfect cube and no side is slanted for want an edge.

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He is waiting for a number, but not to fill the earth?

Why multiply before but not now?

People are still multiplying now. You yourself quoted the population growth rate as 83M every year.

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This is a subject we can only really speculate on --

But I have an opinion -- and I've heard others express it as well (not here)

God created this earth for a special purpose.
I think we all agree that God knows everything? Which means He KNEW sin would reign on this earth. He KNEW sin brings death. He KNEW Christ would go through the "birth" process to become a human.

We are told -- there is no marriage or giving in marriage in heaven, we will be like the angels (that implies angels do not marry nor are they given in marriage)

That further gives rise to the thought that this whole marriage idea, and even the whole reproduction system in the plant and animal kingdom, that is so "normal" on this earth was not known prior to earth's creation.
The angels weren't "alone" they had many companions, but it was friendship, not marriage. They were created, not born.

God introduces the reproductive system in His creation of this world because:
1. Once sin enters things and people would die and needed constant replenishment.
2. But more important -- it was the means by which Christ would enter a human womb and be born a human being.
3. It was to be used as an illustration of Christ's love for His church

Speculative discussions have at times been held as to --
If nothing dies, what happens to the flowers we pick, and will everything become totally overgrown as things keep growing but not dying etc etc etc.
Well, if there is no reproduction, and there is no death -- (sounds rather boringly static) but it's very probable that God has systems of life that we have no clue about, right?

However, it seems the whole reproductive system as we know it, is something unique to this world.



Why no marriage?

Yes, when I was young it seemed like a serious drawback to think of no marriage in heaven.

But think of the reality of marriage in this world -- happy marriages are not really the norm., they do exist, (I know from experience) but the reality is that there has been a huge amount of misery and heart ache connected with marriage and man-kinds means of reproduction on this planet over the last 6000 years. The harems, the multiple partners, the abused, the divorced, the incompatible ones, the child marriages, the forced marriages, the abducted brides, the rapes and the whole transgender mess If you think through the different cultures and practices and realities you will find more problems to add to the list. It is a "mess".


It makes me think that in heaven the whole reproductive/marriage system will be no more, and everyone will be an individual in their own right, friends with everyone, Christ being the love of their lives.
Sorting out all the marriage problems from this earth would be a night mare.

Just like the question asked of Jesus -- "Whose wife will she be, for seven brothers married her in succession"?
Indeed how would that be resolved?
Interesting that they didn't ask "Who will be Solomon's wife -- for he had a 1000?

Waiting for a number?

I've heard it suggested the "number" is to replace the angels that "kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, and are now kept in chains reserved in darkness for the judgment".

I think you mean, "not then"?

Anyway, have you ever wondered why God created us to be human beings and not angels? Where weren't we angels in the first place? The Psalmist said we're a little lower than the angels, and Jesus said that after the resurrection, we would be like them. So what is the point of all this earth and things of the earth? Was God trying to lift up a substitute for what had been cast down?

For eternal life, we know, is a gift only for those who ask in sincere repentance: not of works, lest any man should boast.

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Yes, I did.

It does seem like one reasonable idea would be that procreation served as some example of understanding, and after Christ, that is no longer needed.

Do you think that those kind of people would be in heaven? The first murderer was one who grew fruits and vegetables. Does that mean we can't grow fruits and vegetables in heaven? Lots of people kill each other, yet people will be in heaven. Just because sin is on this earth doesn't mean sinless beings won't be able to handle those situations in heaven.


But this addresses a different question, why not be rejoined to our spouse in heaven.

Whatever it is, we might never know for a thousand years. God chose to make angels, humans, animals, plants and things. Does a dog ever wonder why it is a dog? Does it look at its master and shake its head? "I'm far more righteous than that self-righteous slob," it might be thinking. Who knows? What we do know is that only humans were made in the image and likeness of God, there'll be no marriage in heaven and since angels do not multiply, and we will be like them, then enough children of God will be brought into existence according to Divine will.

It is written concerning this matter, "who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." John 1:13. God is wealthy beyond all imagination. He has a huge mansion with houses everywhere all over the universe. He can easily, EASILY afford to have 100,000,000,000 children with lots of room to spare.

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The following was written to a man who had fallen in love with a woman who was not his wife, and he was thinking that in heaven he would have the privilege of marrying her and raising a bunch of children.



Strong statement -- however, it was also addressing the adulterous situation the man was imagining, and that he needed to get back to loving and respecting his wife here on earth.


Kland -- all the heartaches and pain the marriage system has experienced over the centuries is speaking of sins committed against a relational way of life.
The examples you gave don't compare.
A person who grows fruits and vegetables has no relationship with Cain.
But a person who arrives in heaven and told they must be married to their former spouse for eternity would be placed in that relationship for eternity.
A few would rejoice, but millions would not think that heaven.

That doesn't mean one can't be reunited with their spouse -- of course they can -- but as best of friends throughout eternity not in a marriage relationship-- both will be equal with the angels (not just the men)
So yes, my example does relate to the question -- why didn't they ask who Solomon's wife would be since he had 1000, why worry about the woman who had seven husbands in succession? They probably thought Solomon would have ALL those wives, but the woman could only have one husband. See-- the mess of marriage this world has made throughout history. It would not be heaven to resume it -- there has to be another plan for relationships in heaven for it to be heaven.

And yes, I'm happy to leave it in God's hands -- He has plans of which we are incapable to comprehend -- and it will be heaven!
He is to be the love of our lives --
Remember the citizen's of the New Jerusalem are pictured as the BRIDE, and Christ the Bridegroom.
The marriage of the Lamb --
,

Dedication, do you think both of those people, who would not want to be married to each other, would be in heaven?

Good question, kland.

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'The reason God created marriage is so that we can appreciate not being married in heaven all the more'?

Why do you say that?

Summarizing Dedication?

Have you ever bitten your tongue? Doesn't food that finds itself in your mouth tremble in fear at the thought of being swallowed? Nevertheless one grain says to the other, "Be of good cheer, my friend. We will return in this mouth, as this mouth." Surely what is in the stomach must be bruised and broken by the environment. Life is inevitable.

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Multiply, fill the earth, and then move to another planet and do it again - for eternity. No marriage or recreation in Heaven during the Millennium. However, there is nothing in the Bible that says things will not resume how they were before the Rebellion.

I always present it as being children of God, with the child-like love and affection for each other. When the members see the children's almost instant joy and happiness as they meet and bond with other children, its not hard to comprehend.

Sounds reasonable and hopeful.
However, the verses in question don't target heaven. It says, resurrection.

Lu 20:35 "But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;

Mt 22:30 "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.

FINALLY

 

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HEX CODE SAMPLE (Ϣ) -- Ϣ

 

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"I am the Α and the Ω, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 1:8

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"The doctrine that children will be born in the new earth is not a part of the "'sure word of prophecy.'" A Universe without children growing up and being amazed and thrilled as they learn about God, others, themselves, and the Universe around them is . . . hard to imagine with joy.

Well supported, Daryl. Jesus Christ and Ellen White were simply too plain to be mistaken on this issue. Their statements should end all further speculation on this question.

Praise the Lord for a "plain 'thus saith the Lord'"!

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

The point, however, is that YOU are that child. To the angels of God, you are a source of continual pleasure and conversation. 1 Peter 1:2

Secondly, a world made new would be so vast and varied that you will always find something to enjoy. Think of music. Since time immemorial, people have been inventing songs and still, amazingly, somewhere, somehow, somebody manages to come up with something new that others immediately download and enjoy.

The arts and sciences are full of such surprises. And this: "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love Him." 1 Cor. 2:9

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The words allos and heteros in Greek characters (from web to web copy works):

Original Word: ἄλλος, η, ον

Original Word: ἕτερος, α, ον

And some Spanish: ?Qui?n quisiera hablar s?lo en espa?ol? D?melo. (Copied from Green Cochoa's keyboard input and doesn't work due to his keyboard's different code page -- for reference)

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Spanish: Rev 13:4 Y adoraron al dragón que había dado autoridad a la bestia, y adoraron a la bestia, diciendo: ¿Quién es semejante a la bestia, y quién podrá luchar contra ella?

Greek: Rev 13:4  και προσεκυνησαν τον δρακοντα ος εδωκεν εξουσιαν τω θηριω και προσεκυνησαν το θηριον λεγοντες τις ομοιος τω θηριω τις δυναται πολεμησαι μετ αυτου  

Copy/pasted from post above:

Spanish: Rev 13:4 Y adoraron al drag?n que hab?a dado autoridad a la bestia, y adoraron a la bestia, diciendo: ?Qui?n es semejante a la bestia, y qui?n podr? luchar contra ella?

Greek: Rev 13:4 και προσεκυνησαν τον δρακοντα ος εδωκεν εξουσιαν τω θηριω και προσεκυνησαν το θηριον λεγοντες τις ομοιος τω θηριω τις δυναται πολεμησαι μετ αυτου


Typed on my keyboard:
Y adoraron al drag?n que hab?a dado autoridad a la bestia, y adoraron a la bestia, diciendo: ?Qui?n es semejante a la bestia, y qui?n podr? luchar contra ella? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? ?! ._:; () ?? +*

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There seems to be a problem with the way the character that is entered in the textarea for posting USING THE WINDOWS CHARMAP is interpreted when it is stored in the database. The preview using javascript on the client side is OK, but between the post being sent to the database on the server and retrieved for the client, the meaning of the code used to display the character is lost. Hence the question mark glyphs.

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Exactly. Not very user-friendly. Prior to the "upgrade" hex codes were never required. Sigh. Upgrades are so often downgrades these days.

Seriously, though, UTF8 should fix these issues. The form for the quick reply should be set as follows:

FROM: <form method="post" action="/forums/ubbthreads.php" name="replier">

TO: <form method="post" action="/forums/ubbthreads.php" accept-charset="UTF-8" name="replier">

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Hey, how come James is allowed to use tables but I'm not?

Guess tables only show up after posted.
And strike through only after posted....
?

Here is a interesting study....

https://adventistbiblicalresearch.org/materials/theology-heaven/marriage-heaven

Some errors he made. Similar to some statements others made previously.



Before the fall, there was no death.

So you should only marry if you plan to have children?
As I had said previously, will the earth be "full" at a subset? That is, are we overpopulated today?

Excellent point. I look forward to it.

In the beginning Jesus told A&E (the human race) to multiply and fill the Earth. Then what? Stop having children? Or, move to another planet and do it all over again. For eternity. We may never know what might have been. Can't imagine growing up and not being allowed to have children because the limit has been reached.

Both the Bible and EGW are clear that there will not be marriage after the 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ for the reason that on account of sin marriage came to an end at the death of one of the spouse's leaving it open for the living person to marry again.

As it is clear that marriage ends at death, it is also clear that marriage also ends as an institution at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

And yes, "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love Him." 1 Cor. 2:9

Down the line of original planned sinless earth: Son, you are the last one to meet the requirements of "fill the earth". Too bad, but you will not be getting married nor having children.

So therefore, could we conclude there may be other things/ institutions which existed and were planned prior to sin which ended with sin, the Cross, Second coming, or with the end of this earth?

I think Daryl meant that our marriage vows come to an end when our spouse dies.
That is -- everyone who was married all through earth's history were released from their vows at the death of their spouse..
Thus at the resurrection, those vows are NOT reinstated.

It has nothing to do with prophecy and it's fulfillment -- the cross was a one time event the second coming will be a one time event, etc. There won't be another cross, or another second coming after that.

Question--
Are the angels terrible deprived because they do not marry or give birth?

Why do people think they will be so terribly deprived if they can't be in a sexual relationship?
Why would anyone want to be eternally pregnant populating planet after planet???

There is absolutely nothing that says we won't have beautiful relationships with the people we loved on earth. In fact we have lots of confirmation that we will have wonderful relationships -- so that isn't the issue.

Also there may be lots of children in heaven whose parents didn't make it -- who need someone.

Scripture says plainly that there is no marriage or giving in marriage, we will be like the angels.
Why not simply accept that and trust that God has wonderful plans for His children, instead of trying to shape that future for ourselves according to our plans?

What if both spouses never die but are translated?

Ask your same questions regarding Adam and Eve prior to sin.


Yes. Marriage was given so we can appreciate all the more of not being married in the new earth.

One survives but not the other?
Neither survive?
Or why one and not the other?

What is YOUR view on marriage in heaven?

My view is that the Bible says there is no marriage, but it is an institution that is founded in Eden before sin. So therefore, there may be something about Jesus' words in that passage which we do not fully understand.

But there're a few things that were native to the time before Adam and Eve fell that would not be in heaven. For example, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the four rivers, death .... Do you still offer animal sacrifices in the privacy of your own home, lest anyone should know? I suppose the larger question should be "Do you appreciate that certain things are relevant in a particular era but not in others?"

Please, tell us about this "death" that was native to the time before Adam and Eve fell.

adam and eve were given the promise of eternal life, they did NOT possess it, neither did any animal nor plant. all things in this world were created with a lifespan, the expiration of which was death. only to human beings THE PROMISE was made of continuing on forever. see gen. 3:19

And you come to that conclusion by reading what in the Bible?

see gen. 3:19

do you just read the first 10 words of a post and then hastily reply?

what does "dust you are" tell you about adam's state with regards to eternal life without eating the fruit of the tree of life? and if only humans eat of that tree, then what about the simple ant or the busy bee? was eternal life offered to them as well?

It tells nothing about eternal life. It only tells what he was made of. And Gen 3:19 is after sin. It tells nothing about eating the fruit of the tree of life.

What did Adam lose after sinning?

of course it does. it says "dust you are" it does not say "dust you have become" but that out of the ground he was made and to the ground he will return. adam, like every living thing upon the earth, did not possess eternal life inherently and so there was death in the garden of eden.

Well, that's an interesting thought. I'd like to see you support it other than, if God makes something, it means it's going to die. And why did God say that to Adam at that time and not before?

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--
13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.
16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification.
17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

he said it before, duh

gen 2

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground ..." v7

"The Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there He put the man whom He had formed." v8

"The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden ..." v9

Nope.

Death came through sin,
NOT through creation.

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned-

It's clear -- death came THROUGH sin.


I agree that nothing created has innate immortality or innate life -- only God has innate immortality, only God holds the amazing energy that is life. However God's creation did NOT die as long as the stewards of that creation (mankind) were in harmony with God. It was only when that harmony was broken that death and decay entered.
The only reason life even continued after rebellion against God entered the world, is because Christ stepped in with the amazing covenant of salvation.


It's a little like electrical connection--
When the house is fully connected with electricity the lights are bright and continuous
When the connection with electricity is cut the lights go out UNLESS
there is a back-up battery, which allows dimmer lighting for a limited time.
Before sin -- the perfect creation could live forever, their connection with the source of eternal life was in place.
After sin -- that connection was broken, but Christ stepped in as the "emergency" battery extending limited life, so the full plan of salvation could unfold.
Those who accept Christ have the assurance that the connection with the eternal life is once again established, and that full energy of life will be turned on at the second coming.


God knew that sin would enter the world with all its death and misery
The plan of salvation was already in place before the foundations of the world were laid. (see Rev. 13:8)
So it's not unreasonable to think that God created a reproducing system that COULD continue to exist even while death and decay did it's awful work.

Also -- it was through the reproduction system that Christ, the eternal Son of God, entered the human race fully human, to redeem the fallen race, so someday soon eternal life will become a living reality.

When sin is no more -- the reproduction system will no longer be needed --
Why worry about that?
Let's rejoice that salvation and eternal life is granted to all who will respond to Christ and follow Him.

what are you saying nope to:

1. that humans and tigers were made of dust?
2. that death naturally befell anyone (humans and tigers) who did not eat of the tree of life?
3. that eternal life was ONLY available on eating of the tree of life?
4. that ONLY humans were offered eternal life and not tigers?

just saying nope is nike sloganeering. just saying nope does not help your case against an incontrovertible statement of fact. what happened to the tigers who were not to eat of the tree of life? they died in the garden of eden, as did the flowers and the leaves and the trees ...

Are you saying the Tree of Life is just a metaphor?

Also, are you saying the reproductive system only came about because of sin???

1. No, the trees in the garden were real -- but the tree in and of itself is not the source of life -- God is the source. God uses tangible things to lead to truth. Tigers and flowers didn't have to eat of the tree to sustain life -- but the STEWARDS of the earth (mankind who was given dominion over everything to care for it) had to eat to remind them life depended upon the Life Giver.


2. No, the reproductive system of all species, didn't come about because sin happened, it was part of every living thing on planet earth at creation before sin, but rather it was part of the plan to deal with sin before sin even happened because God knew this earth would be the show case of the battle between sin and redemption. Remember scripture says, the Lamb was slain from the foundation of THIS EARTH. --

God is prepared knowing what will come -- every detail is in place to go forward with the covenant agree upon before creation, so God created a reproducing system that COULD continue to exist even while death and decay did it's awful work.
Also -- it was through the reproduction system that Christ, the eternal Son of God, entered the human race fully human, to redeem the fallen race,

So eating from the Tree of Life was necessary, right?
 
The only reason we had a reproduction system was for the sin emergency? Do you have ANY inspired text to prove that, or is that just suppostion on your part? Was marriage only put in place in the change that sin MIGHT happen?

Sin was a not "chance" (not a maybe) God knew it would happen.
Sin was not a surprise "emergency" -- God knew by creating minds to think and chose, that sin would arise.
Before creating, the plan was laid out that would forever settle the question of God's perfect love and law, and create an eternal abhorrence for sin. In all eternity future people will give full alliance to God, NOT because they have to, but because they want to -- they love to!

Do you know of any other intelligent beings that get married? Angels? Seraphim? Cherubim?

Seems we do have scripture that says angels do NOT experience marriage? . Why not?
We also have scripture that says we will not marry or be given in marriage but will be like the angels.
Matt. 22:30 Mark 12:25

Sin started with Angel - no procreation.

Again - you make some interesting claim, but do not back them up with any inspired text. You claim procreation was because of sin. Again, do you have ANY inspired text or are you just conjecturing?

And what aboutt he Tree of Life - - was main required to eat from the tree in order to sustain life, or is that just a metaphor? After sin is gone, will man be required to eat from a read physical tree?

James, go back and read what I said nope to. It was not what you switched things with. That was dishonest. Dishonesty does not help your case. Making the Bible says what it does not does not help your case. There is no record that anything died in the garden of Eden prior to sin. That's what the conversation was about.

Hmmm. Sounds like you are associating marriage with the reproduction system.
What about tigers with your reproduction system will no longer be needed? Did God create the maximum amount of tigers prior to sin? Will He recreate the maximum amount of tigers after the new earth? Or did God create a deficiency number of tigers prior to sin knowing sin would happen? What if Adam and Eve did not sin for awhile and the reproduction system remained in place for tigers?

Will there be no baby tigers in the new earth?!!!!!

Associating marriage with the reproduction system --
Yes, -- because there is absolutely NOTHING in scripture or Spirit of Prophecy that says we won't know and love those we have known and loved here on earth. Those components of a relationship will continue, I fully expect to have my best friend and partner be my special friend and partner in eternity..
But marriage will not continue. (That's what scripture says)
So if love and companionship continues, what is it that will not continue?
Marriage will not continue (marriage here on earth is a unity cemented sexually, in which offspring are produced and raised)
.

People can speculate endlessly about tigers and such.

The thing is --
WE DON'T KNOW how things will work.
We only know the cycles of life we now have, which balance death and life.
and quite frankly they don't work in a world where nothing dies but everything keeps reproducing as they can now. It would be even a much greater rate, as now a lot of "new life" in the plant and animal world never lives long enough to mature and reproduce. But in eternity NOTHING dies.

The present systems of reproduction do NOT work in a world where nothing dies.

In Eden it worked because God only created a limited amount of everything, so there was lots of room for expansion in the year or so before sin. God knew sin would come quickly -- He knows the future.. Adam and Eve didn't even have time to reproduce while still in the garden, so I don't think they were there for very long, maybe a couple years at most.

But I'm sure God has systems that we know NOTHING about -- so it's rather futile to impose present systems on a deathless perfect eternity.

Was the present system put in place before sin? Was it only an emergency system if sin came into the world? It sounds like God knew that man would sin, and is short order, so let's put in a reproductive system.
But that does not prevent you from specification, does it...

All heaven took a deep and joyful interest in the creation of the world and of man. Human beings were a new and distinct order. They were made "in the image of God," and it was the Creator's design that they should populate the earth. They were to live in close communion with heaven, receiving power from the Source of all power. Upheld by God, they were to live sinless lives. {RH, February 11, 1902 par. 1}
 
Satan determined to defeat God's plan. {RH, February 11, 1902 par. 2}

That goes against idea that reproduction was just an emergency measure put in place because of the possibility of sin. No, as Dedication says, the absolute certainty of sin.

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
 
Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God has prepared for them that love him.


Do you get that? We don't know what God has prepared, but it will be good!

God himself gave the reason why human beings were made male and female: He said, "it is not good that adam should be the only human being on this earth" (see gen 2:18, it's written right there in indelible ink) so he, God, made a helper for adam to bring other human beings into the world: God made the woman who adam called eve, the mother of all human beings, as adam was the father of all.

in short, the reproductive aspect of man was made for the express purpose of populating the earth. but after the number of children will have been reached, there will no longer be any need for reproduction, hence Jesus' word that in heaven there will be NO marriage.

but sda love to have sex and express great disappointment concerning the future to the point of even asking of others and themselves whether they want to go to heaven after all.

APL -- I think I already answered all your questions in previous posts -- so not sure how to read your post.

Yes, I do associate the BIBLE TEXT that there is no marriage or giving in marriage in the eternity as elimination of the reproduction system -- BECAUSE --
because there is absolutely NOTHING in scripture or Spirit of Prophecy that says we won't know and love those we have known and loved here on earth.
Those components of a relationship will continue, I fully expect to have my best friend and partner to be my special friend and partner in eternity.
Those aspects we associate with family will continue.
But marriage will not continue. (That's what scripture says-- those are the words of Jesus ) Do you believe them?
So if love and companionship continues, what is it that will not continue?

We can quote numerous passages that love and companionship will continue --

BUT marriage will not continue
How was marriage ratified in Bible times? How is marriage "consummated"?
it is a unity cemented sexually, in which in time offspring are produced and raised.
So it isn't some wild speculation that by telling us there will be no marriage, it is this aspect that will end.



I would definitely NOT limit that to SDA, it is rather universal (Muslims with their 40 virgins theory, Mormons with multiple wives to populate planets theory, etc etc the world in general has made sex an idol) ,
but the concern James expressed is true -- this whole thread trying to negate Christ's words that there will be no marriage or giving in marriage seems to be based on the sentiment that Christ MUST not take the sexual relationship away or they don't want to go to heaven.

They don't trust that God has something better.





None of APL's quotes negate Christ's words:

And yes, God KNEW WITH CERTAINITY that sin would enter
There is a big difference in GOD KNOWING what would happen, and God determining it would happen.
God did NOT determine that sin would happen, He didn't want it to happen, He created mankind sinless and longed to keep them sinless, there was no reason for them to chose sin, sin didn't have to happen, , YET GOD KNEW IT WOULD HAPPEN.

Thus every provision was placed in the creation of this world to meet the crises.
Rev. 13:8 the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. -- to be "made of a woman" Gal. 4:4 a human.
PP 63 "The plan of salvation had been laid before the creation of the earth, for Christ is ?the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.?"
FLB 76 "The covenant of mercy was made before the foundation of the world. It has existed from all eternity, and is called the everlasting covenant."

Yes, God KNEW -- and fully PREPARED.
And yes, someday soon -- the redeemed of the human race will live sinless forever.


WE DON'T KNOW how the eternal world will operate
But we do know the cycles of life we now have, which balance death and life.
quite frankly don't work in a world where nothing dies and in eternity NOTHING dies.


but we have the promise that "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him.

Do you trust and believe Christ who said there would be no marriage or giving of marriage, yet what God has prepared will make the redeemed joyful ? Or is the sexual system an idol?

I agree that marriage as we know know it will not continue in the earth made new. But you do too far when you claim the reproductive system will be eliminated. You go too far when you say that there will not be male or female, which is based on reproductive systems. Male and female is the image of God. Your claim is that the reproductive system was only in place because SIN was going to happen. Does that mean that other worlds also have reproductive systems, because we know they also have trees of the knowledge of good and evil? Saying there won't be marriage in the new world is fine, but the rest of what you say is pure speculation. Why go beyond what scripture says?

but s/he is right.

in any family, there are male and female children but their gender is ONLY for the express purpose of procreation to be held in check until that time. otherwise, they interact with each other and enjoy each other's company without any reference to gender. they do:

1. eat same food
2. sit at the same table
3. enjoy the same family recreations
4. laugh at the same jokes
5. worship together
6. talk about the things they encounter
7. live together

there is no sex in the family ONLY AND EXCEPT for the father and mother in procreation, and its a privilege they enjoy because of their status. for the rest, they identify as male or female in anticipation of the day when they would also be given the privilege in marriage.

gender differentiation is purely biological for this age. BUT the spirit for the next is neither here nor there. don't the members of the church not enjoy worshiping God without thinking this one is male and that one is female? we are all brethren and among brothers and sisters, the thought of sex is repugnant ... yet they love each other and enjoy each other's company. and that is the way it will be.

what do you think of this interaction between Jesus and John? "Now there was leaning on Jesus bosom one of His disciples, whom Jesus loved. Simon Peter therefore motioned to him to ask who it was of whom He spoke. Then, leaning back on Jesus breast, he said to Him, Lord, who is it?" John 13:23-25

Interesting....
(Emphasis NOT supplied)

Dedication, not only do you associate marriage with reproduction, but also, and maybe more so, with sex. Interesting. You overlook that some things reproduce asexually.

Except sex.
Except sex.

You're saying the purpose of marriage is to produce offspring. Hmmm... What advice do you have for Abram the 70 some years he failed? What comfort would you give him during that time?


Read that out loud to yourself and see if you don't go, what?




Dedication, what I hear you saying is that God invented sex as a precursor to sin. The only purpose of sex is to produce offspring, and if you do not or no longer desire offspring, you should not have sex.

That sex was only an allowance, a stopgap measure for the pre-planned sinning. That sex is a lust of the flesh, and should be looked forward to, towards being eliminated in the new earth.

And, regarding what APL said, if other worlds could sin, then one would suppose they were given sex as a precursor to sin. So at what point did they or will they have that sex taken away? Interesting indeed.


From Sunday's lesson:
In a similar way, enacting the ways of God?s kingdom offers glimpses of that eternal reality here and now and, as such, points to and is a foretaste of the final defeat of evil sin sex.

For if we are looking forward to God's kingdom, to the new earth, we should be practicing for that time, looking forward to it, so we should stop sinning, stop having sex today, in that preparation.



But one thing you lost among the tigers, is what about plant sex? They were created with seed in their fruit. Do you also see that as a precursor to sin? Will there be fruit in the new earth, and/or will it have seed in it? For what purpose? What purpose will there be for the flowers? Or will they be emasculated, without a stigma and anthers of pollen? Will there be no honeybees buzzing from flower to flower in the new earth?!

so is the desire for water, but as solomon says, for everything there is a season and a time for every purpose under heaven. in heaven there will be no desire to have sex (Jesus said there will be NO marriage there), but there will be the desire to eat (Jesus said he would drink of the fruit of the vine along with us).

The above quote should settle the matter.

Daryl, do you know the ORIGINAL source of the quote you gave above? Any you do know that marriage in the earth made new is not in question, you know that right??? You do know that nature of dedication's claims, right???

This conversion is getting rather silly.
Nowhere in the postings is there a hint that intimate relationships between husband and wife here on earth are limited only to making babies. Marriage is marriage here on earth -- and should include all that marriage is -- love, companionship, sharing, caring and intimate relationships.

Do they think that by saying there will still be companionship and good friendship in heaven that this somehow can't happen without marriage????
Or is APL saying in heaven sex will be some kind of free for all without marriage??? Since he agrees there will be no marriage, but seems to have a big problem with the other.

Come on guys -- marriage here on earth, is meant to be a safe place for sex and child rearing. Marriage is a commitment to ONE PERSON for life. (If you follow God's purposes) Sex outside of marriage wrecks havoc to emotional health and is called SIN in scripture. That's one of the ten commandments.

Scripture is plain -- no marriage or giving in marriage,
Those are the words of Jesus, Himself.
And yes, Daryl's quote,, as well as rational thought, should settle things once and for all --
NO marriage -- means no sex -- and no births.

Plain -- clear -- simple.



The quote goes on to say "The Lord has made every provision for our happiness in the future life" but
"we are not to speculate concerning them. Neither are we to measure the conditions of the future life by the conditions of this life."

I think we were talking about your speculations of associating sin with sex.



And no baby tigers, no pollen, no seeds, no honey bees, and no butterflies.

Plain -- clear -- simple.

?????????????????

[
Remember Jesus said there is no marriage in heaven......




We don't know what God has planned --
The topic is called "the supposed lack of marriage in heaven" --
We don't have to "suppose" what Christ has said would NOT be in heaven.


Whether God creates butterflies and honey bees or creatures we don't even know about on a different system -- that is purely speculation --- and quite unimportant for us to argue about. .
We need to trust God's promise
""The Lord has made every provision for our happiness in the future life" but
"we are not to speculate concerning them. Neither are we to measure the conditions of the future life by the conditions of this life."

AH - some truth! Why then do you SPECULATE what it will be like in the New Earth? It is certain that marriage we have today is NOT what God had planned. Just like the priesthood of Christ is more excellent that what came before - Do you know what the difference is?

So why did you speculate that sex was invented because God planned on us sinning? Was that just a wild goose chase?

the difference? about the priesthood? of course whereas the priesthood of men ended upon death, that of christ was everlasting. "The Lord has sworn and will not relent, You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek." psalm 110:4

The question becomes what will change, and why....