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Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account
#7113
10/20/05 03:59 AM
10/20/05 03:59 AM
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There is nothing vague or ambiguous about the way it is described in the Bible or the SOP. That’s why you will never read an inspired commentary that agrees with how you are applying the “force” quotes. Certainly there's nothing vague about what is described in the Bible or the Spirit of Prophecy. Here's how I'm applying the force quotes:
quote:
I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them. It is Satan's power that is at work at sea and on land, bringing calamity and distress, and sweeping off multitudes to make sure of his prey. And storm and tempest both by sea and land will be, for Satan has come down in great wrath. He is at work. He knows his time is short and, if he is not restrained, we shall see more terrible manifestations of his power than we have ever dreamed of.(14 MR 3)
Do you think this agrees with the principles I have been presenting?
If holy angels did God's bidding by maniuplating the forces of nature, then force is a principle of God's government. That violates the first principle mentioned above. There's also the problem that it would have God acting differently than what Jesus Christ revealed in His life and character.
Tom, how do you explain this passage:
GC 614
A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}
How do you explain it? Is force a principle of God's government? I suggest you read the statement in context. Look at either the paragraphs immediately preceeding or immediately following, and you will see that she is saying the same thing (in almost the same words) as what I quoted above in 14 MR 3.
Agreed. But the fact that God allows certain things to happen does not mean that all that happens is His will. For example, God permits those who reject Him to be lost, but it is His will that they be saved.
Do you mean preference?
No, I meant will, as in desire. It's what God wants. This certainly includes preference, but it is not limited to preference.
It is not God’s desire or preference to punish and destroy people in the lake of fire, but neither is it His will that they live forever in a sinful state.
It is His will to punish and to destroy them if they reject Jesus.
The wicked are destroyed by their own choice and actions:
quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.(DA 764)
If we bear in mind that all truth is rightly understood only in the light of the cross, and also bear in mind that in order for Christ's death to substitute for the death of those for whom it substitutes it must be identical in character, we can see from Scripture that what Ellen White wrote above in DA 764 must be correct. God did not punish or destroy Christ in the sense you are thinking God destroys and punishes the wicked. Rather He displayed His wrath against Christ by giving them up to the same fate He gave Christ up to:
quote:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; F6 for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so F7 that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: (Rom. 1:18-24)
quote:
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. (Rom. 4:24, 25)
quote:
He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? (Rom. 8:32)
God gave up Christ, just as will give up the wicked (as described in the DA 764 quote)
If God allows Satan to do something, then it is Satan who is doing it, not God. For example, all the bad things that happened to Job were Satan's doing, not God's. That's a major point, the major point, of the story.
Not so.
It is so.
quote:
Satan works through the elements also to garner his harvest of unprepared souls. He has studied the secrets of the laboratories of nature, and he uses all his power to control the elements as far as God allows. When he was suffered to afflict Job, how quickly flocks and herds, servants, houses, children, were swept away, one trouble succeeding another as in a moment. It is God that shields His creatures and hedges them in from the power of the destroyer. But the Christian world have shown contempt for the law of Jehovah; and the Lord will do just what He has declared that He would--He will withdraw His blessings from the earth and remove His protecting care from those who are rebelling against His law and teaching and forcing others to do the same. Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard. He will favor and prosper some in order to further his own designs, and he will bring trouble upon others and lead men to believe that it is God who is afflicting them.(GC 589)
1.Satan works through the elements to accomplish his will.
2.Satan uses his power as far as God allows.
3.God shields His creatures and hedges them in from the power of the destroyer.
4.The Lord withdraws His blessings from the earth and protective care.
5.Satan has control over those whom God does not guard.
This statement of EGW makes the points I've been bringing out as clearly as they can be. It is Satan who destroys, and God who restores.
quote:
Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer. (CH 168)
God is responsible for what He allows Satan to do. Satan can do no more and no less than what God gives Him permission to do. Satan can do only those things God feels, under the circumstances, are right and best for everyone involved.
This is a little confused it seems to me. The pain and death which Satan causes are not "right" for anyone. Sin is a tragedy which God never intended should occur. Jesus Christ showed that God is all about fighting the work of Satan. This is exactly what Christ did by revealing God's character through His healing, compassion and many other benevolent works.
He will not allow Satan to tempt us beyond our ability, in Christ, to resist. Satan is only free to do those things that God allows him to do. He is not at liberty to refuse to do those things God orders him to do.
To me this is confused again. This sounds like Calvinistic theology. This is not Adventism. You will find not quotes from the Spirit of Prophesy echoing the idea that God orders Satan to do what he does. Satan has free will to do what he wish, and it is his choice, and his choice alone, to do the hateful things he does.
He is, in one sense, obligated to obey God.
If he were obligted to obey God, then he would act like Christ did. Christ showed what obedience to God looks like. It is manifest in selfless love.
One other point. If Satan were obligated to obey God, he would have been obligated to obey Christ, since Christ and the Father are one. But Satan fought against Christ all along the way.
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Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account
#7114
10/20/05 04:14 PM
10/20/05 04:14 PM
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quote:
If God pusnishes and destroys people for not believing in Jesus, He is using force to get them to believe in Him.
Tom, promising to punish and destroy someone for rejecting “so great salvation” in Jesus is not a threat, it’s a promise. It’s not a tactic to get us to accept Jesus as our personal Saviour. God doesn’t work that way. However, more than a few of us were initially motivated to believe in Jesus merely to escape damnation. Not wanting to die in the lake of fire is a good reason to serve Jesus, but if our reasons never progress beyond this one then we shall surely punish and perish in the flames.
Hebrews
10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
10:31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
quote:
How does your idea of what is happening correspond to what Calvary reveals?
Tom, when you read about the Flood in the Bible or the SOP do see any mention of Calvary? We’re not talking about my “idea” here; instead, we’re talking about how the Bible and the SOP describe the Flood. Where in the inspired accounts do find the Cross mentioned? Would you consider it a weakness if it was missing?
quote:
Do you think this agrees with the principles I have been presenting?
Yes. But it doesn’t explain everything. It doesn’t explain all the other places where Sister White plainly describes holy angels using the forces of nature to punish and destroy unsaved sinners.
quote:
Look at either the paragraphs immediately preceeding or immediately following, and you will see that she is saying the same thing (in almost the same words) as what I quoted above in 14 MR 3.
No it doesn’t. Nowhere in it does she say, “The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits.” Here she clearly says God commanded holy angels to exercise destructive power. When? When did God order His holy angles to use destructive power?
I hear you saying, Never! I hear you saying that what she really meant is that God merely allowed evil angles to do it, that He told the holy angels to stop restraining them. I have also heard you say, on other threads, that God simply allowed the pent up forces of nature to unleash its natural fury upon the antediluvians, and that’s why they died in a flood.
quote:
The wicked are destroyed by their own choice and actions:
No. Nowhere in the Bible or the SOP will you find the unsaved sinners pleading with God to command the fires of hell to punish and destroy them for rejecting Jesus. Instead, they rally their forces in an attempt to take by force the New Jerusalem.
GC 664
Satan consults with his angels, and then with these kings and conquerors and mighty men. They look upon the strength and numbers on their side, and declare that the army within the city is small in comparison with theirs, and that it can be overcome. They lay their plans to take possession of the riches and glory of the New Jerusalem. All immediately begin to prepare for battle. Skillful artisans construct implements of war. Military leaders, famed for their success, marshal the throngs of warlike men into companies and divisions. {GC 664.2}
quote:
The pain and death which Satan causes are not "right" for anyone. Sin is a tragedy which God never intended should occur. Jesus Christ showed that God is all about fighting the work of Satan.
Are you suggesting that Satan has the authority to cause pain and suffering against the will and wishes of God?
quote:
If Satan were obligated to obey God, he would have been obligated to obey Christ, since Christ and the Father are one.
He did obey Jesus. He had to. Why? Holy angels would have killed him if he refused to obey Jesus. Holy angels force evil angels to obey the word of God.
Luke
4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
James
4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
James
2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
DA 130, 131
So we may resist temptation, and force Satan to depart from us. Jesus gained the victory through submission and faith in God, and by the apostle He says to us, "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and He will draw nigh to you." James 4:7, 8. We cannot save ourselves from the tempter's power; he has conquered humanity, and when we try to stand in our own strength, we shall become a prey to his devices; but "the name of the Lord is a strong tower: the righteous runneth into it, and is safe." Prov. 18:10. Satan trembles and flees before the weakest soul who finds refuge in that mighty name. {DA 130.4}
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Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account
#7115
10/20/05 06:25 PM
10/20/05 06:25 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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If God pusnishes and destroys people for not believing in Jesus, He is using force to get them to believe in Him.Tom, promising to punish and destroy someone for rejecting “so great salvation” in Jesus is not a threat, it’s a promise. It’s not a tactic to get us to accept Jesus as our personal Saviour. God doesn’t work that way. However, more than a few of us were initially motivated to believe in Jesus merely to escape damnation. Not wanting to die in the lake of fire is a good reason to serve Jesus, but if our reasons never progress beyond this one then we shall surely punish and perish in the flames. Say I'm a doctor, and you come to me for help, and I diagnose that you have a terminal disease. I warn you that will die if you do not follow my instructions. If you refuse and die, this is not the same sceanario as if I tell you I will kill you if you do not follow my instructions.
There are many who have the idea that sin is innocuous. Satan started this idea with our first parents. God is promising that Satan's lies are false; sin really is deadly! Sin kills, just as the DA 764 text lays out.
You will notice in the DA 764 text that it is explicitly denied that God causes the death of the wicked; rather it is repeatedly emphasized that it is not due to an action on God's part, but is rather a result of their own choice and actions.How does your idea of what is happening correspond to what Calvary reveals?Tom, when you read about the Flood in the Bible or the SOP do see any mention of Calvary? We’re not talking about my “idea” here; instead, we’re talking about how the Bible and the SOP describe the Flood. Where in the inspired accounts do find the Cross mentioned? Would you consider it a weakness if it was missing? The statement from the Spirit of Prophecy stated that to be properly understood any truth must be related to Calvary. It did not state that any truth needed to be stated in relation to Calvary. If you do not see its relation to Calvary, you do not understand it.Do you think this agrees with the principles I have been presenting?Yes. But it doesn’t explain everything. It doesn’t explain all the other places where Sister White plainly describes holy angels using the forces of nature to punish and destroy unsaved sinners. The first thing we should establish in our minds is that inspiration does not contradict itself. When you use the word "other" as in "all the other places," this implies there is a contradiction, at least in your mind. This suggests a misunderstanding of what is happening.
The principle that force is not a principle of God's government is clear and easy to understand. Force is not something which God uses to get His way. That's what the statement means. Calvary clearly demonstrates the truth of this principle. If you have to interpret an event in such a way that God is using force to get His way, then you are not interpreting it correctly; inspiration does not contradict itself.Look at either the paragraphs immediately preceeding or immediately following, and you will see that she is saying the same thing (in almost the same words) as what I quoted above in 14 MR 3.No it doesn’t. Nowhere in it does she say, “The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits.” Here she clearly says God commanded holy angels to exercise destructive power. When? When did God order His holy angles to use destructive power? Yes it does. Did you even look at the reference? This is immediately following:
quote:
When God's presence was finally withdrawn from the Jewish nation, priests and people knew it not. Though under the control of Satan, and swayed by the most horrible and malignant passions, they still regarded themselves as the chosen of God.
This is immediately preceeding:
quote:
When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth... The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended...The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old.
The context of the passage is in complete harmony with 14 MR 3. Once again, inspiration does not contradict itself. Take a look at the passage as a whole, and you will see she is presenting exactly the same ideas I have been presenting:
1)When God removes His restraint, Satan has control of the impenitent.
2)Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection (from whom? from God? No! from Satan; God protects, Satan destroys)
3)When the angels of God cease to hold in check the winds of strife, these destructive elements are let loose.
4)What happens here is worse than in Jerusalem.
Over and over she compares this time with the destruction of Jerusalem. Regarding that destruction she writes,
quote:
The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. (GC 35)
Once again, these are the same principles. Rather than looking at isolated texts out of context, try to comprehend the principles involved.
I hear you saying, Never! I hear you saying that what she really meant is that God merely allowed evil angles to do it, that He told the holy angels to stop restraining them. I have also heard you say, on other threads, that God simply allowed the pent up forces of nature to unleash its natural fury upon the antediluvians, and that’s why they died in a flood.
What she really meant is what she wrote in the texts I quoted. As I suggested, these are in the immediate context, both preceeding and subsequent to the sentence you quoted.
The wicked are destroyed by their own choice and actions:
No.
Yes. Here it is again.
quote:
This is NOT an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. (DA 764; emphasis mine)
Nowhere in the Bible or the SOP will you find the unsaved sinners pleading with God to command the fires of hell to punish and destroy them for rejecting Jesus. Instead, they rally their forces in an attempt to take by force the New Jerusalem.
Here is another text which brings out the principle:
quote:
A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is VOLUNTARY with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. (GC 542; emphasis mine)
The pain and death which Satan causes are not "right" for anyone. Sin is a tragedy which God never intended should occur. Jesus Christ showed that God is all about fighting the work of Satan.
Are you suggesting that Satan has the authority to cause pain and suffering against the will and wishes of God?
The same authority which we have, commonly known as free will. In the Lord's prayer we pray, "Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven" demonstrating that God's will is not done on earth (which is obvious to anyone with eyes).
If Satan were obligated to obey God, he would have been obligated to obey Christ, since Christ and the Father are one.
He did obey Jesus. He had to. Why? Holy angels would have killed him if he refused to obey Jesus. Holy angels force evil angels to obey the word of God.
You're twisting the meaning of words. Yes, God protected Christ from the harm Satan would wreak on him; this has never been in dispute. Satan "obeys" God in the sense that he cannot do anything God prevents him from doing. But this is not the meaning you were conveying before, which is the erroneous idea that Satan does what God wants Him to do. This idea is false. If it were true, Satan would perform the same selfless acts benefiting others which Christ did.
In Christ we see exactly what God's will is. Anything which varies from what we see in Christ in the least particular is contrary to God's will. So to the extent that Satan does anything different than what Christ would do in his spot, Satan is acting contrary to God's will.
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Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account
#7116
10/20/05 08:54 PM
10/20/05 08:54 PM
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Tom,
I meant to judge, that is, to acquit or condemn, to pronounce sentence as the judge of a court.
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Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account
#7117
10/21/05 03:46 AM
10/21/05 03:46 AM
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Jesus said on quite a number of occasions that He does not judge or condemn, but rather saved. If it's really true that when we see Jesus, we've seen the Father, the only conclusion is that the Father does not judge or condemn either, but rather saves. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever. He acted no differently in His life on earth than He will in the future. For example, what will happen in the judgement is clearly seen in the cleansing of the temple. Jesus in John 12 (in the quote I provided) explained that He will not judge in the last day, but His word will judge. DA 764 helps to explain the last day dynamic: quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life... they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. (DA 764)
The destiny of all those who refuse to respond to God's loving appeals is to eventually become so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. Jesus' mission was to save them from this fate; the judgment will prove the truthfulness of His warning words.
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Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account
#7118
10/21/05 11:32 AM
10/21/05 11:32 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Tom,
Whatever you think will happen afterward, Christ will act as Judge then, and will pronounce sentence on everyone; but He never acted as the judge of a court while on earth.
“Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;’ ... Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels’” (Matt. 25:34, 41).
“The judgment scene will take place in the presence of all the worlds; for in this judgment the government of God will be vindicated, and his law will stand forth as ‘holy, and just, and good.’ Then every case will be decided, and sentence will be passed upon all” (RH, Sept. 20, 1898).
“The whole wicked world stand arraigned at the bar of God on the charge of high treason against the government of heaven. They have none to plead their cause; they are without excuse; and the sentence of eternal death is pronounced against them” (GC 668).
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Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account
#7119
10/21/05 02:53 PM
10/21/05 02:53 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
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Lawrence, Kansas
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Tom, Whatever you think will happen afterward, Christ will act as Judge then, and will pronounce sentence on everyone; but He never acted as the judge of a court while on earth. “Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;’ ... Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels’” (Matt. 25:34, 41). “The judgment scene will take place in the presence of all the worlds; for in this judgment the government of God will be vindicated, and his law will stand forth as ‘holy, and just, and good.’ Then every case will be decided, and sentence will be passed upon all” (RH, Sept. 20, 1898). “The whole wicked world stand arraigned at the bar of God on the charge of high treason against the government of heaven. They have none to plead their cause; they are without excuse; and the sentence of eternal death is pronounced against them” (GC 668). Given that inspiration does not contradict itself, we must understand these statements in the light of John 12, which states:
"47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."
We are told that ALL that man can know about God was revealed in the life and character of Jesus Christ, in His humanity. So whatever questions we have regarding God's conduct at any time, whether past, present or future, can be discovered by searching the life and character of Christ.
In John 12 Jesus said, "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out." (verse 31). This verse brings out the principle of judgment, which is that when the truth about God is seen, then the truth about the enemy is seen as well as the nature of sin and the issues of the Great Controversy. Notice from the chapter "It Is Finished"
quote:
"And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." Rev. 12:10.
Satan saw that his disguise was torn away. His administration was laid open before the unfallen angels and before the heavenly universe. He had revealed himself as a murderer. By shedding the blood of the Son of God, he had uprooted himself from the sympathies of the heavenly beings. Henceforth his work was restricted. Whatever attitude he might assume, he could no longer await the angels as they came from the heavenly courts, and before them accuse Christ's brethren of being clothed with the garments of blackness and the defilement of sin. The last link of sympathy between Satan and the heavenly world was broken. (DA 761)
Satan's power was broken when the truth was made know. This is the principle of judgment. It happened while Christ was alive on earth, for those who saw the truth (the unfallen beings), and it will happen again in the future at Christ's Second Coming and the final judgment (for the unfallen beings).
Jesus acts no differently in either case. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. His role is to reveal the truth about His Father, which is what He did during His ministry on earth, and what He is doing in His ministry in heaven, and what He will do during and after the Second Coming.
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Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account
#7120
10/21/05 08:29 PM
10/21/05 08:29 PM
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The Word of God, and more specifically the law of God, will be the standard of judgment, but Christ is the Judge. The Bible is very clear about this.
John 5:22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,
Acts 10:42 And He commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained of God to be the Judge of the quick and dead.
Acts 17:31 because He hath appointed a Day in which He will judge the world in righteousness by that Man whom He hath ordained.
Romans 2:16 Thus will it be on the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my Gospel.
When He was on earth, Christ said He didn't come to judge, but to save. But also, when He was on earth, He said He didn't know the day of His coming. Nobody will claim this is still true. What is true of His first coming may not be true of the second, and vice-versa. In His first coming He came as a humble Galilean, in His second coming He will come as King of Kings. In His first coming He came to die for all; in His second coming He will come to judge all.
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Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account
#7121
10/21/05 11:37 PM
10/21/05 11:37 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Christ's goal, and God's goal, is also to save, not to condemn. This never changes.
Judgment comes when the truth is rejected. Jesus made that clear in John 12, when He explained how Satan was cast down. The statements in DA 761 also bear this out.
God's character doesn't change. He doesn't change His principles. He always works in the same way, which is just how Jesus acted. The only way it could be truthfully said that Jesus Christ revealed ALL that we can know about God is if God, and Christ, weill NEVER act any differently then how Jesus acted while hear on earth. This is a simple deduction from what "all" means.
The cleansing of the temple is a good illustration of the principles involved in judgment. Christ laid out the truth, and those who were rejecting it couldn't bear it and left. Those whose consciences were clear, including children and the sick, stayed around and sat on Jesus' lap or were healed.
Another example is when Jesus wrote on the ground when the woman caught in adultery was broght to Him. Rather than face embarrassment, her accusers left.
Jesus pointed out this principle in John 3. Those who have done well, come to the light, that there works may be seen, which were wrought of God. Those who have done evil, run away from the light.
Light is agonizing for the wicked. They would rather die than face it, and God gives them their desire. The light of the glory of God (which is the truth about His character) gives life to the righteouse, but slays the wicked.
There's no difference in either Jesus' actions (which was, and is, and ever will be to reveal God's character) nor in the principles of God's governemnt either before sin entered the world, after sin entered the world, or after Christ returns. The only thing that changes is how the truth will be revealed.
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Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account
#7122
10/23/05 03:00 AM
10/23/05 03:00 AM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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quote:
The statement from the Spirit of Prophecy stated that to be properly understood any truth must be related to Calvary. It did not state that any truth needed to be stated in relation to Calvary. If you do not see its relation to Calvary, you do not understand it.
Tom, are you saying the inspired accounts do not mention the cross in the context of the Flood? If not, why not?
quote:
If you have to interpret an event in such a way that God is using force to get His way, then you are not interpreting it correctly; inspiration does not contradict itself.
There is no interpreting necessary, Tom. It plainly says God punished and destroyed the antediluvians with a Flood. Period. God did not use force to compel people to accept Jesus.
quote:
Yes it does.
No it doesn’t. Nowhere in your 14 MR 3 quote did she say that, “The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits.” Here she clearly says God commanded holy angels to exercise destructive power. When? When did God order His holy angles to use destructive power?
I hear you saying, Never! I hear you saying that what she really meant is that God merely allowed evil angles to do it, that He told the holy angels to stop restraining them. I also hear you saying, on other threads, that God simply allowed the pent up forces of nature to unleash its natural fury upon the antediluvians, and that’s why they died in a flood.
quote:
Mike: Nowhere in the Bible or the SOP will you find the unsaved sinners pleading with God to command the fires of hell to punish and destroy them for rejecting Jesus. Instead, they rally their forces in an attempt to take by force the New Jerusalem.
Tom: Yes. Here it is again.
The quotes you posted did not say that they pleaded with God to kill them in the lake of fire. Nor did they say that the unsaved created the lake of fire themselves and then hopped in it in order to die. Instead, here’s what she said about it:
EW 294, 295
Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}
Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294.2}
quote:
Mike: Are you suggesting that Satan has the authority to cause pain and suffering against the will and wishes of God?
Tom: The same authority which we have, commonly known as free will. In the Lord's prayer we pray, "Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven" demonstrating that God's will is not done on earth (which is obvious to anyone with eyes).
So, you believe Satan is a rogue enemy of God and man, who has the right and authority to cause pain and suffering against the will and wishes of God? that he can, without any restraint from God, do as he pleases, irrespective of God’s will? that God has no right or authority to prevent Satan from causing pain and suffering against His will? When did God grant this type of power and authority and freedom to the Devil?
quote:
But this is not the meaning you were conveying before, which is the erroneous idea that Satan does what God wants Him to do. This idea is false. If it were true, Satan would perform the same selfless acts benefiting others which Christ did.
He does, when it serves his purposes. Check out this quote:
GC 589
Through spiritualism, Satan appears as a benefactor of the race, healing the diseases of the people, and professing to present a new and more exalted system of religious faith; but at the same time he works as a destroyer. His temptations are leading multitudes to ruin. Intemperance dethrones reason; sensual indulgence, strife, and bloodshed follow. Satan delights in war, for it excites the worst passions of the soul and then sweeps into eternity its victims steeped in vice and blood. It is his object to incite the nations to war against one another, for he can thus divert the minds of the people from the work of preparation to stand in the day of God. {GC 589.1}
Satan works through the elements also to garner his harvest of unprepared souls. He has studied the secrets of the laboratories of nature, and he uses all his power to control the elements as far as God allows. When he was suffered to afflict Job, how quickly flocks and herds, servants, houses, children, were swept away, one trouble succeeding another as in a moment. It is God that shields His creatures and hedges them in from the power of the destroyer. But the Christian world have shown contempt for the law of Jehovah; and the Lord will do just what He has declared that He would--He will withdraw His blessings from the earth and remove His protecting care from those who are rebelling against His law and teaching and forcing others to do the same. Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard. He will favor and prosper some in order to further his own designs, and he will bring trouble upon others and lead men to believe that it is God who is afflicting them. {GC 589.2}
quote:
In Christ we see exactly what God's will is. Anything which varies from what we see in Christ in the least particular is contrary to God's will.
Tom, when Jesus was on earth when did He allow Satan to harness the powers of nature to kill flocks and loved ones? “Satan works through the elements also to garner his harvest of unprepared souls. He has studied the secrets of the laboratories of nature, and he uses all his power to control the elements as far as God allows.”
When did Jesus, while on earth, command holy angels to kill people? “The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits.”
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