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Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account #7183
11/16/05 06:55 PM
11/16/05 06:55 PM
Tom  Offline
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quote:

Tom, you and I both agree Jesus never killed anyone with a Flood while on earth as a human being. He spoke of it and things similar happening in the past and that will happen in the future, but during His sojourn here He never killed anyone with a Flood, or in any other fashion. However, Jesus did do things that were fundamentally similar in principle. For example, cursing the tree, driving out the unholy traffickers, and issuing woes. I say similar in principle because they hinted at judgment to come. But it was dissimilar in that He did not execute judgment, as in the Flood, while on earth. He said that He was waiting to reward people according their works until He returns.

I see nothing contradictory about this understanding of the truth. Now, please, let's move on.

Even though you don't see the contradiction, I see one. You say on the one hand that Jesus never did anything remotely like the flood during His life on earth, and on the other that He did do things which we like the flood. That's a contradiction.

If Jesus did nothing during His life remotely like the flood during His life on earth, then this contradicts the principles that ALL that we can know about God was revealed during Christ's life. OTOH, if Jesus did do something like the flood during His life on earth, that's a contradiction to your statement that He didn't.

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account #7184
11/17/05 02:23 PM
11/17/05 02:23 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Tom, all I'm saying is that Jesus did not cause a Flood to kill people while on earth as a man. Do you agree? You believe He ceased holding back the impending forces of nature and people were killed with a Flood? While our views of how the Flood happened are different, the results are the same, namely, people died in a flood.

1. So, according to your view, when did Jesus cease holding back the forces of nature, while on earth, and, as a result, people died in a flood?

2. You and I both agree Jesus allowed the Romans to defeat and displace the Jews in AD 70. But when did He, while on earth, allow a heathen army to defeat and displace the Jews?

I agree that while on earth Jesus demonstrated, in principle, things fundamentally similar to the flood and the destruction of Jerusalem. But He did not cause or allow a flood, a flood, I'm saying a flood, to kill people. And, nothing He did while on earth, though similar in principle, came close to the death and devastation caused by the flood or the fall of Jerusalem.

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account #7185
11/17/05 07:07 PM
11/17/05 07:07 PM
Tom  Offline
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The magnitude of the acts are not important, but the principle governing the act. The principle is when God removed His sustaining/protecting hand, ruin comes. The principle is spelled out clearly in GC 35, 36

quote:
The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control.

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty.

Careful study of these paragraphs reveals principles that are not specific in scope, but are general in nature. They serve to explain how destruction takes place, how God's wrath transpires. There is no need for any other mechanism than that described here, and holding to some other view must be wrong because it requires one to hold to a view which is contrary to that which was revealed in the life of Christ.

You have postulated that God sometimes destroys as described here, and sometimes uses some other means which was never demonatrated in the life of Christ. But given that ALL that can be known of God was revealed in the life of Christ, this hypothesis must be rejected. Christ's entire life demonstrated the principle outlined above. It agrees with the statement of the Spirit of Prophecy that sickness, suffering and death are the work of an antagnistic power. Satan is the destroyer, God the restorer.

Not once during Jesus' entire life did He cause sickness, suffering and death to come upon anyone. Instead He tirelessly fought against these things. In so doing, He accurately represented God's character.

Note in the above quote that Satan is clever, and hides what he does by accusing God of doing what he does. Unfortunately, there's many who believe Satan.

Regarding the destruction of Jerusalem, there's absolultely nothing in Scripture that designates anyone but God as being responsible for its destruction, yet we see from the above description that God was innocent. Given that it's Satan purpose to distort God's character, shouldn't we heed the principles which God has revealed to us? Why believe the enemy?

God is not like Satan! He is not the destroyer. God is just like Jesus Christ, the One who went about doing good, who tirelessly healed, and fought the enemy, who does destroy and cause sickness, suffering and death.

Note above it says, "We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy." This indicates an underestimation on our part of recongnizing God's work. This lack of appreciation of God's restraining influence is exactly what I am seeing in your perspective. Your posts indicate a lack of perception of both sin's destructive power, and God's work in protecting us from it. If one does not understand the nature of sin, it seems difficult to me that one will understand the nature of our protection and deliverance from it.

The fact that it states that no more decisive tesitimony of God's hatred of sin can be given than the destruction of Jerusalem is significant. If God did act in the manner you suggest, certainly that would be more decisive testimony against sin. That is, if God acted in Satan's place, and destroyed those who rebelled against Him, and caused sickness, suffering and death, then this would be a more decisive testimony of God's hatred of sin then God's simply withdrawing His protection. That should be clear.

The reason there is no more decisive testimony as to God's hatred of sin, and its sure punishment, is because the destruction of Jerusalem explains how God punishes sin.

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account #7186
11/18/05 02:59 PM
11/18/05 02:59 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Tom, I appreciate you reiterating your view. You have made it clear that you believe Jesus exercises His wrath toward sinners by withholding His protecting hand, by allowing Satan to cause suffering and death, that Jesus never lifts a hand against mankind. However, you did not answer these two questions:

quote:
1. So, according to your view, when did Jesus cease holding back the forces of nature, while on earth, and, as a result, people died in a flood?

2. You and I both agree Jesus allowed the Romans to defeat and displace the Jews in AD 70. But when did He, while on earth, allow a heathen army to defeat and displace the Jews?


Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account #7187
11/21/05 05:10 AM
11/21/05 05:10 AM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Mike, I'm going to be gone for awhile, a little over a week. If you wish to revive the conversation, we can at that time (like Tuesday of next week)

I think I've answered your questions several times on this thread. The principles are in the GC quote I cited at length.

You're making things too complicated I think. It's very simple:

1)Sickness, suffering and death are the work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer. God is the restorer.
2)Jesus Christ is the perfect revelation of God's character. ALL that we can know of God was revealed in Him.
3)Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.

Your quesitons strike me as rather silly. I really don't see the point in them. Jesus lived during 4BC until 30 AD. Why are you asking me when He did things during this time frame which happened outside this time frame? This is clearly impossible. He couldn't have done something in 4000 BC during 4BC to 30 AD.

The only question that makes sense is what episodes happened during Christ's life which were similar to the flood in principle. First of all, we see that at no time during Christ's life did He act in the way you think He did during the flood, which means your view of the flood is wanting, don't you think? If ALL that can be known of God was revealed during Christ's life on earth, and nothing during His life on earth revealed the view you have, then that view must be suspect, correct? That's how it seems to me.

It was only because Christ did not heed Lazarus' families' pleas for Him to return that Lazarus could die. The demons asked for permission to enter into the swine, and we see what happened when Christ permitted that. When Judas turned away from Christ, we see what happened there as well. The cursing of the fig tree, as the Spirit of Prophecy points out, was an acted parable of the destruction of Jerusalem, the principles of which are spelled out in detail in my post before this one. The cleansing of the temple was a judgment scene, where those who opposed Christ's methods fled in terror when their consciences were awakened as divinity flashed through humanity. Christ did not use violence against them to get His way.

Is God a God of violence? Should we serve Him because He will destroy us like squished grapes if we don't? Or worse yet, torture us in scalding liquid of unimaginable pain? I see nothing of the God you espouse in the life of Christ. I see no violence there. No recourse to force. However, I do see warnings against the powers of sin and evil, as well as much which illustrates the truth that ruin must inevitably result if God removes His sustaining or protecting hand.

God bless until my return,

Tom

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account #7188
11/22/05 03:39 AM
11/22/05 03:39 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Okay. Let's let it rest at that. I believe Jesus caused the Flood to happen supernaturally, and you believe He allowed it to happen naturally.

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account #7189
11/27/05 04:48 PM
11/27/05 04:48 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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The following two articles are official church statements that affirm what I have been sharing on this thread.

http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/documents/Does%20God%20Destroy.htm

http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/documents/Does%20God%20get%20angry.htm

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account #7190
11/29/05 08:19 PM
11/29/05 08:19 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
quote:
Okay. Let's let it rest at that. I believe Jesus caused the Flood to happen supernaturally, and you believe He allowed it to happen naturally.
I think the use of the word "naturally" may give the wrong impression. What you wrote there isn't how I would say what I believe.

I think it's fine to say Jesus, or God, caused the Flood to happen supernatually. I agree with that. I just disagree with you regarding *how* God accomplished this task. I think He did it in a way which was in harmony with what Jesus revealed of God's character, whereas you believe Jesus did not do anything remotely resembling the flood during His life on earth. If your point of view were correct, I don't see how it could be rightly said that all that can be known of God was revealed in Jesus' humanity.

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account #7191
11/29/05 10:15 PM
11/29/05 10:15 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
I found Dr. Holbrook's article to be confused in its reasoning. We could discuss it if you wish. (that would make for a good topic) I'll just mention two points.

First, he refers to the following principle several times:

"It should be noted that this mechanism occurs during probationary time when Satan is active. This mechanism obviously cannot function after the reign of Satan has terminated."

Often when people have no argument to make they use the expression, "obviously". That's an old mathematics trick, to slide through the more difficult parts of the proof. I knew a story about this I'll tell you if you're interested.

Anyway, it's not obvious, and it's not true, I don't believe, that God's uses different mechanisms either before or after probation. Actually God never uses different mechanisms, at least not as the author is conceptualizing the term, and this is an important point to understand, as it gets to the issue of the what the Great Controversy is all about.

Does God need to change His ways of doing things because of sin? If God's government is perfect, then it's principles should be sufficient to destroy sin. All that would be needed would be a revelation of truth.

This is really the whole question. Is all that's necessary a revelation of truth? Or does God need to alter His government in order to deal with the questions and accusations Satan introduced? Specifically, did God need to add force/destruction in order to deal with Satan's lies, even though we're told that force is not a principle of God's government and is only to be found in the enemy's? So does God use principle sof the enemy's government, principles which didn't exist until the enemy invented them, in order to destroy the enemy?

The second point touches on this same theme:

quote:
Destruction of the works of Satan by revealing the truth about God is simply a figurative way of speaking. The actual revelation destroys nothing.
It's not a figurative way of speaking. It's the truth. Actual revelation does destroy. Here's the principle clearly explained:

quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)

DA 108 is similar, in saying "the light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, slays the wicked". What is the light of the glory of God? It is the revelation of the truth of His character. This revelation gives life to the righteous, and does well and truly destroy the wicked.

A question I had was he was evidently responding to something, but I don't know what.

A final point is I'm not sure if you want to consider the BRI as the official position of our church. For example, I'm sure you don't agree with this: http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/documents/humanaturechristunfallen.htm

Probably not all of this either: http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/documents/Rom%205%3b12-21.htm

Probably not this one either:
http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/documents/Adam&Humanity.htm

I'm sure I could find more if I looked. If you are going to quote from a source as autoratitive, then you need to accept everything from that source as authoritative. You can't just cherry pick the things you like if you are going to be true to the source you are deeming authoritative.

Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account #7192
11/29/05 10:50 PM
11/29/05 10:50 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
The second article also had straw men and unsound arguments. Here's one example:

quote:
But these texts hardly imply that damnation is a natural result of our evil deeds any more than they imply that salvation is a natural result of our good works.
This is both an unsound argument (by implication) and a straw man. This would be an interesting argument to develop, but I'll restrain myself, unless there's some interest here.

I'll just mention one more item, which is a common blind spot (you mentioned the very same thing the author did)

quote:
Ah, but this is the Old Testament! Don't we find a different picture in the New?
No. The same dual emphasis is repeated in the New Testament: God saves and destroys (James 4:12). We are told to consider both "the kindness and the severity of God" (Rom. 11:22, RSV). One of the most intense pictures of God's vengeance is found in Revelation 19:11-21-and this is a portrayal of the Son! The same Testament that says "God is love" also says "God is a consuming fire." He is the avenger (Rom. 12:19; Heb. 10:30). Even Jesus got angry (Mark 3:5; compare Rev. 6:16). He destroyed the fig tree and threw the robbers out of the Temple (Mark 11:12-17). Jesus also spoke of the wrath of God (John 3:36); and portrayed God as a king who relentlessly punished and destroyed the impenitent (Matt. 18:34, 35; 22:7; Luke 12:46; 19:27). Thus the divine wrath is as clearly taught in the New Testament as in the Old.

The part in particular I'd like to point out is the part in bold. It points out:
a)Jesus destroyed the fig tree.
b)Threw the robbers out of the Temple
c)Portrayed God as a king who relentless punished and destroyed the impenitent.

Item a) is dealing with the destruction of Jerusalem. Item b) is misunderstanding and mistating what happened. The Desire of Ages makes is clear that it was the conscience of the wicked which forced them to run away from Christ. It was the revelation of truth which caused them to flee, when divinity flashed through humanity. The author is creating a false impression that Christ forced them out by physical force, which is a foolish idea anyway (the area was too big and there were too many of them). Item c) is also dealing with the destruction of Jersualem.

Regarding the destruction of Jerusalem, the Spirit of Prophecy writes:

quote:
The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the
Page 36
destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control.

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. (GC 35, 36)

So the author is missing the whole point in referencing Christ's acts as being in harmony with his (the author's) misunderstanding of God's character. The purpose of Christ's ministry was to reveal the truth about God, which is that God is like Jesus. If we get so confused that we don't even know what Jesus is like, then that destroys the whole point of Jesus' revelation.

When one looks at Jesus' life, one see that He never harmed anybody. He revealed that sickness, suffering and death are the work of an antagonistic power; that while Satan is the destroyer, God is the restorer. Each of the statements the author referred to in attempting to portray Christ in a negative light are explained in great detail in their true light in the Spirit of Prophecy. See DA 161-163 regarding the cleansing of the Temple. See DA 582, 583 regarding the cursing of the fig tree.

Understanding that ALL that can be know of God was revealed in the character of His Son, all that remains in order to perceive God's character aright is to correctly interpret Jesus' life. Jesus' life was one of graciously overcoming evil with good, turning the other cheek, walking the second mile, washing the feet of His disciples. When asked if fire should be sent from heaven to destroy those who were opposing Him, he replied this was the spirit of the enemy, that He had come not to destroy but to save. This is the true revelation of God's character. God comes to save (heal), not to destroy. It's only when man interposes a perverse will and frustrates His grace that God's healing purposes are thwarted. Then the revelation of His gracious character, instead of saving as it does for the righteous, destroys, as explained here:

quote:
By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. (DA 764)

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