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Re: Are the writtings of EGWhite equal to the BIBLE ?
#7228
03/03/06 07:59 PM
03/03/06 07:59 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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Bill, you are only one of six billion. Most of those don't even know I exist. It is wonderful that you take such notice of me to single me out for special treatment. How sweet it is.
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Re: Are the writtings of EGWhite equal to the BIBLE ?
#7229
03/03/06 08:21 PM
03/03/06 08:21 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
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quote:
Originally posted by Snowman:
asygo, your quote is nice and all BUT what is the point???
You said, "The main reason why I started this thread was for me to try to understand WHY we the SDA Church would need for so MUCH writting from a prophet in this day."
That's the reason she gave (or at least one of them). Others might have different reasons for needing/using the SOP so much, but that's what she said. The testimonies are there to send us to the Bible truths that we have neglected or misunderstood.
quote:
Originally posted by Snowman:
If according to the quote , that people would not heed the call of the BIBLE what or why would they "soften their hearts" to the thousands of pages written by EGW?
Hearts are not softened by the words in the SOP, nor by the words in the Bible. Hearts are softened by the Holy Spirit, the Author of those words. Those who rebel against the Spirit's voice in the Bible will also reject the SOP, for it is the same voice.
But there are those who need a firmer, more definite "nudge" to wake them up. I do the same for my kids. They know that selfishness is unacceptable, but they still sometimes indulge in it. When confronted, they admit that it was selfish and that it was not a good thing to do. I often find myself merely laying out the same principles over and over, just applying it to varying circumstances, helping their immature minds to grasp the big picture. And to do that, I need the Spirit of prophecy working in me as much as EGW needed Him in writing those thousands of pages.
(Side note: I find in Revelation that the Spirit of Prophecy is to be possessed by each member of the remnant. Just as each individual is to keep the commandments of Jesus, so also each member is to have the Spirit of prophecy.)
quote:
Originally posted by Snowman:
I am wondering how those people that do not strive to follow the SDA BIBLICAL teachings, look at the Seventh-day Adventist Church where some people strive to put EGW as high and in some cases even highr than the BIBLE.
First of all, the Bible is the word of God, the only infallible rule of faith and practice. The Spirit Who inspired it will neither contradict nor supercede it.
Second, the SOP is, at least in the minds of some, an authoritative source of truth. This depends on its authorship. If you believe it has the same Author as the Bible, then it is just as authoritative.
Third, those who don't accept the Bible for what it says will not accept the SOP either. The gift of prophecy is for believers, not unbelievers. IOW, if one doesn't believe it, it won't help to keep quoting stuff he doesn't believe. The "softening" and convincing must come from another source.
Fourth, when there is error in understanding the Bible, the Bible is its own best expositor. If you cannot prove what you're saying from the Bible, then it might not be worth saying. This, in conjuntion with #3 above, leads me to avoid using the SOP when preaching to a mixed crowd.
Lastly, if one puts the SOP above the Bible, then he's got his foundation over the roof. If you've ever tried to build a house that way, you know that it cannot stand. How would you look at someonne building a house like that? That's how people look at those who put the SOP over the Bible.
Some Mormons came by to give me a Bible study one day. They claimed to believe the Bible, but wanted to study the Book of Mormon because "that's what we need today." I told them that we can study, but they have to pick from two options:
- We study the Bible only, since we agreed that it is inspired truth.
- We can study the Book of Mormon, but only after we study my 3-volume set of the SOP Library.
They said they'd get back to me, but they never did.
For those of us who accept the SOP, we have to always be careful that we always put the Bible first, we strive to know what it says, and most importantly, that we dedicate our lives to walking in its light.
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Re: Are the writtings of EGWhite equal to the BIBLE ?
#7230
03/03/06 08:36 PM
03/03/06 08:36 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Here's the quote: quote:
There is not a point that needs to be dwelt upon more earnestly, repeated more frequently, or established more firmly in the minds of all than the impossibility of fallen man meriting anything by his own best good works. Salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ alone.
You are suggesting that I gave the wrong meaning to the quote because I said, "salvation is by faith alone in Christ." You said the quote is saying faith in Christ alone, as if that meant something different, and suggest the different thing that it means is that salvation is by faith in Christ alone. Thus you understand that she is saying that salvation is by faith in Christ alone, as opposed to faith in something else.
However, your interpretation does not agree with the context. She was contrasting faith and works, not faith in Christ vs. faith in something else. She says the point that needs to be established is that we cannot merit anything by the good works we do. Salvation is by faith in Christ "alone". The "alone", by the context, is clearly modifying "faith", not "Christ."
Although the word order was different, the meaning was not. We are saved by faith. Not by works. Not faith and works, But by faith. (However, it's a faith which works).
If you look at the chapter heading, you will see it says, "THROUGH FAITH ALONE." Admitedly, she did not give this title herself, but it shows what the natural conclusion of what she wrote, taking into account the context.
This is from the same essay:
quote:
Let the subject be made distinct and plain that it is not possible to effect anything in our standing before God or in the gift of God to us through creature merit. Should faith and works purchase the gift of salvation for anyone, then the Creator is under obligation to the creature. Here is an opportunity for falsehood to be accepted as truth. If any man can merit salvation by anything he may do, then he is in the same position as the Catholic to do penance for his sins. Salvation, then, is partly of debt, that may be earned as wages. If man cannot, by any of his good works, merit salvation, then it must be wholly of grace, received by man as a sinner because he receives and believes in Jesus. It is wholly a free gift. Justification by faith is placed beyond controversy. And all this controversy is ended, as soon as the matter is settled that the merits of fallen man in his good works can never procure eternal life for him. (FW 19)
Througout the entire essay she is contrasting faith alone vs. works, not faith in Christ alone vs. faith in something else.
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Re: Are the writtings of EGWhite equal to the BIBLE ?
#7231
03/03/06 08:50 PM
03/03/06 08:50 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
The opposite and NO LESS DANGEROUS ERROR is that belief in Christ releases men fromm keeping the law of God; that since by faith alone we become partakers of the grace of Christ, our works have nothing to do with our redemption." (Steps to Christ, page 60)
Notice she says this view of believeing in faith alone (without the fruit of works) is a dangerous error.
You're having her say something she didn't say. She didn't say there was anything wrong with believing that we are saved by faith alone! Indeed, she said that very thing throughout her ministry, and this is the Biblical teaching. She endorsed Luther's teaching of righteousness by faith, of which this is the cornerstone, not to mention that of Jones and Waggoner, Prescott too. Indeed throughout our entire history as a denomination we have taught that salvation is by faith alone in Christ. I sincerely hope you are not trusting even the minutest bit in your own works to save you, because that cannot be.
Here's how fundamental beliefs #10 puts is:
quote:
In infinite love and mercy God made Christ, who knew no sin, to be sin for us, so that in Him we might be made the righteousness of God. Led by the Holy Spirit we sense our need, acknowledge our sinfulness, repent of our transgressions, and exercise faith in Jesus as Lord and Christ, as Substitute and Example. This faith which receives salvation comes through the divine power of the Word and is the gift of God's grace. Through Christ we are justified, adopted as God's sons and daughters, and delivered from the lordship of sin. Through the Spirit we are born again and sanctified; the Spirit renews our minds, writes God's law of love in our hearts, and we are given the power to live a holy life. Abiding in Him we become partakers of the divine nature and have the assurance of salvation now and in the judgment.
Ok, returning to the Spirit of Prophecy quote, she said, "that since by faith alone we become partakers of the grace of Christ, our works have nothing to do with our redemption." She wasn't arguing against the premise, but against the conclusion. That since by faith alone we become partakers of the grace of Christ. This part is true. "our works have nothing to do with our redemption." This part is false.
Our works will demonstrate the genuineness of our faith. This has ever been the SDA position.
James was not saying anything contrary to Paul. Both taught that justification is by faith alone in Christ, a faith which works by love.
Here's a good explanation:
quote:
Paul and James. Here is where nearly everybody quotes the words of James, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" James 2:21. Unfortunately this text is usually quoted as a disparagement of the words of Paul. It seems to be taken for granted that there is a contradiction between Paul and James; and sympathy naturally leans to James, because people like to believe that there is some merit in their own works, and they imagine that this is what James teaches. Indeed, there are some who hold that James wrote for the purpose of correcting Paul's "extreme views" of justification by faith.
We may well throw all such foolish and wicked ideas to the winds. No one need hope to come to an understanding of the Scriptures until he approaches them with the settled conviction that "all Scripture is given by inspiration of God." The Holy Spirit does not at one time inspire words which must later on be corrected.
Faith Working. The trouble with those who thus read the words of James is that they suppose that the apostle says that Abraham was justified by his own works of faith. "Seest thou how faith wrought?" That is ever the mark of living faith, as the apostle is showing. And that is just the statement of the apostle Paul. The last verse of the third chapter of Romans tells us that by faith we establish the law.
Moreover, the very term "justification" shows that faith performs the requirement of the law. Faith makes a man a doer of the law, for that is the meaning of the term "justification by faith." So in James we read that the works of Abraham simply showed the perfection of his faith. "And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness." The apostle James, therefore, teaches the same kind of justification that Paul does. If he did not, one or the other or both of them would be discredited as apostles. Justification by faith which works is the only kind of justification known in the Bible.
Debt and Grace. "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt." It is necessary to keep in mind what the apostle is writing about. The subject is the means by which a man is justified. To him that works for justification, the reward of righteousness is not a gift of grace, but the payment of a debt. That is, it would be so if there were any righteousness by works. In that case, the man would come to the Lord and demand of him his due.
But no man can put the Lord under obligation to him. "Who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?" Rom. 11:35. If any one could do something for the Lord for which the Lord would be under obligation to him, then all things would not be from him. That is to say, the idea of justification by works is opposed to the fact that God is the Creator of all things. And, conversely, the recognition of God as Creator is the acknowledgement that righteousness comes from him alone. (Waggoner on Romans)
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Re: Are the writtings of EGWhite equal to the BIBLE ?
#7232
03/03/06 08:51 PM
03/03/06 08:51 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Hearts are not softened by the words in the SOP, nor by the words in the Bible. Hearts are softened by the Holy Spirit, the Author of those words. Those who rebel against the Spirit's voice in the Bible will also reject the SOP, for it is the same voice.
Well said. They'll also reject other messengers the Lord sends for the same reason.
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Re: Are the writtings of EGWhite equal to the BIBLE ?
#7233
03/04/06 03:19 AM
03/04/06 03:19 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Bill, you're explanation of Jesus' prophecy and Peter's denial and the cock crowing requires us to add to the word of God - something God strictly forbids.
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Re: Are the writtings of EGWhite equal to the BIBLE ?
#7234
03/04/06 01:33 PM
03/04/06 01:33 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,009
Ohio
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quote:
Originally posted by Darius:
Another demonstration of the Fallacy of the Assumed Premise. When will we accept the fundamental teaching of the Bible that the human race was saved two thousand years ago, so that there is nothing we need to do to be saved? We continue to base our discussions on what we should certainly understand to be an untruth. We don't need to do anything to be saved. Christ did it all already.
There is another slight error in this line of thinking. Humans today were not saved 2,000 years ago because there is condition to salvation. It only takes a very light reading of the New Testament to see that.
quote:
All people will hate you because you follow me, but those people who keep their faith until the end will be saved.
Mark 13:13 NCV
quote:
Anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved, but anyone who does not believe will be punished.
Mark 16:16 NCV
quote:
Then anyone who calls on the Lord will be saved.
Acts 2:21 NCV
quote:
Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved -- you and all the people in your house.
Acts 16:31 NCV
quote:
and all need to be made right with God by his grace, which is a free gift. They need to be made free from sin through Jesus Christ.
Romans 3:24 NCV
quote:
Anyone who calls on the Lord will be saved.
Romans 10:13 NCV
quote:
And you are being saved by it if you continue believing what I told you.
1 Corinthians 15:2 NCV
quote:
Live in the right way so that you will be saved and your weakness will not cause you to be lost
Hebrews 12:13 NCV
So, a more accurate statement would be as follows:
When will we accept the fundamental teaching of the Bible that the human race was given the ability to be saved two thousand years ago, so that there is nothing, but accept God's free gift, that we need to do to be saved? We continue to base our discussions on what we should certainly understand to be an untruth. We don't need to do anything but accept the gift to be saved. Christ did everything else already.
You see, Christ did all but one thing for us; he could not make us accept His free gift just as he could not make Adam and Eve not eat the fruit. God puts a very high value on freedom. If indeed, “the human race was saved two thousand years ago,” then none would be lost; that makes one wonder why there is a need for church at all, and makes the urgency of the work in the New Testament seem a little silly.
Now I think it is pretty obvious that acceptance of the gift is going to make some changes in ones life. It is rather like being pulled over by a highway patrol officer. If he were to give me a warning and put me under grace, I am not going to peal out and take off at 120MPH and throw a bunch of gravel onto his car because I am under his grace. I would want to please him in my driving because he showed me that grace, and the same principal works for God.
see also John 4:10, Romans 4:16, Romans 5:15, Romans 6:23, and Revelation 22:17
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Re: Are the writtings of EGWhite equal to the BIBLE ?
#7235
03/04/06 03:14 PM
03/04/06 03:14 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,009
Ohio
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I wonder, is the argument about Ellen White coming after the Bible similar to saying Paul was not in the Old Testament? Here is what I mean: I think most would agree that the same spirit inspired both Moses and Paul; I also think most would agree that the same spirit inspired EGW. Did the believers of the time treat Paul as inferior because his writings were not part of the "scriptures" at that time, or did they listen to what he had to say and attempt to change their lives by his words? The similarity is quite striking. Paul always referred to the OT scriptures, and EGW is always referring to scripture. There are also a lot of letters that Paul wrote that we have not seen. We know this because he references some in the letters that are present in the Bible. I wouldn't be surprised if he actually wrote far more than EGW did, so I think it is rather unfair to say that her writings have more words in total than the Bible. A good question came up a little while ago, quote:
I started this thread was for me to try to understand WHY we the SDA Church would need for so MUCH writting from a prophet in this day.
I am of the opinion that a prophet for this day is more important than any other. We are very near the end; the signs are all around us, and we need to be guided home! If you are interested in just how near the time could be, pick up a copy of "The Appearing" DVD set from It Is Written. I think it's only $15, and it would be the best $15 you've ever spent.
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Re: Are the writtings of EGWhite equal to the BIBLE ?
#7236
03/05/06 12:07 AM
03/05/06 12:07 AM
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Full Member
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 104
Nevada
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Dear Dave Hooper:
You ask "Are the writing of E.G. White equal to the Bible?". Another question should be: Should we hold as a doctrine before non- seventh-day adventists or before non - believers the doctrine that the writings of E.G. White are equal to or above the Holy Scriptures or be held to be the last word in regard to doctrine?
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Re: Are the writtings of EGWhite equal to the BIBLE ?
#7237
03/05/06 01:10 AM
03/05/06 01:10 AM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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The problem is when people use SOP above Scripture, and as Scripture only, and disregard what the Bible says.
Are we backing up the Bible with what is written in Sister White's books, or are her books backed up by what the Bible & history has said?
Take for example chapter 10 of the Great Controversy, I took the liberty to look up Munzer, and found out who he was, also found out that a gentleman a contemporary of Luther was a Sabbath keeper, his name starts with a K its German. Luther said this man was more studied than he regarding the Bible.
I also learned that 100 years prior to the reformation there were Sabbath keepers throughout Europe, starting from the Waldensians, into Romania, Russia, and to the British Isles.
The most famous and celebrated Sabbath Keeper in the world is St.Patrick even though some scholars try and hide it, it is historically correct.
So whats this got to do with Ellen White? Well what she wrote is backed up by the Bible in other words. There is a remant that God has kept throughout time that keep His commandments.
Do I use this to shut down others who do not know about or have received the typical antisda information about Ellen White, no. If you cannot use the Bible to defend your faith, then you may want to revisit it and ask for wisdom and understanding, and show thyself approved by God, a workman that needeth not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
God Bless,
Will
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