Hi MM.

Thanks for your inputs.

God knew beforehand what would happen with his creation but keep creating it. Surely he had a good reason to do it.

Tom said that the only way for humanity to be saved is through Christ redemption, because through Him:
1. Men got his life back (resurrection from the death).
2. God was reconciled to men
3. Men got forgiveness of sin
4. Men might know the height, width and depth of the love of God
5. Men might be reconciled to God
6. Men might be changed back in the image of God
7. Men might live eternally in heaven and the New World

But studying Tom’s writings, this thought could only work if “death is the inevitable result of sin”, not God creation.

Why? Because if death is God creation, then what is the purpose of redemption?

I think, both of us held to the idea that “death is God creation, same as life”, but I come to think that probably it is not true and Tom is right. What do you think?

In His love

James S.

James, just one minor point. God knew what *could* happen, but did it anyway. It was just as possible for man NOT to sin as to sin. It's important to keep that in mind.

God's creation of man did not make it inevitable that man would sin.

Tom.

You said:

In addition to Adam's sinning, we have each chosen the way of sin in our own lives. So it's not a question of only suffering for someone else's choice, but since we have each one gone our own way, and chosen the way of death, it is inevitable that we should die.

Unquote.

I think, sinning is not a matter of our choice, but indeed it is a part of our selves, the “sin” is within us (Romans 7:16-20), we were conceived and born in sin (Psalm 51:5).

We could not choose ‘to do good” because there is nothing “good” in us. All what we can do is sinning by default. So, sinning is not our choice, but our default because we all were born in sin, in the image of Adam.

I think, we died because we inherit Adam’s death body. That is a fact! It is not because our sins, it has nothing to do with our sins.

Now, what kill Adam? How did he die?

1. Did he die because of his sin? Is death the inevitable result of sinning? Did sin kill him?
2. Did he die because he ate the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil where within God had created the death?
3. Did he die because he cut himself off from the Source of Life?
4. Did he die because stop eating the fruit of life?

All seems to me Okkay. But which one is the truth of the bible? And the correct answer must comply with the need of humanity to be redeemed.

So, since humanity fate is because of one man’s fault, it seems that Christ came to restore what this one man had made.

In His love

James S

James, I think you would agree that the quotes I posted on the previous page of this thread clearly teach that before sinned occurred God knew exactly who and how it would play out. Tom disagrees. He believes the quotes teach that God foresaw several outcomes but that He did not know exactly which way it would play out.

The reason I bring this point up is to emphasize God's role. God created sinless beings knowing in advance which ones would sin and die in the lake of fire. He did not cause them to sin. He made them perfect and sinless. But He knew they would choose to sin. And He knew Jesus would live and die to redeem them. He also knew Jesus would succeed on the cross. Tom disagrees.

Sin and death never would have entered the picture if God had chosen not to create free moral agents. But when God chose to create them, knowing which ones would sin and die, sin and death became inevitable. In this sense God is responsible for the existence of sin and death. Again, He did not cause them to sin. But sin and death would not have been possible had He not created beings capable of sinning, beings that He knew in advance would sin and die.

None of the concerns you are exploring on this thread would have been possible had God not chosen to create free moral agents. God is the source of all life. It is God who keeps sinners alive. It would not be possible for sinners to sin if they were dead. God is indirectly responsible for the continued existence of sinning and dying because He continues to grant sinners life. Again, He does not cause them to sin.

Sinning and dying would not happen if God stopped giving sinners life. But in spite of all the sinning and dying that happens God continues give us life. Why? Why does God continue to give us life even though we continue to sin and die? Why did He create free moral agents in the first place, especially since He knew that some would choose to sin? If we can answer these questions I believe it will help us answer the questions you are asking on this thread.

What do you think?

In response to your questions and comments, James:

1.The quotes you mentioned are dealing with sinful nature, not sinning, which is an act of the will. The flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. Consider the following quote:

Quote:

---

The mind must yield obedience to the royal law of liberty, the law which the Spirit of God impresses upon the heart, and makes plain to the understanding. The expulsion of sin must be the act of the soul itself, in calling into exercise its noblest powers. The only freedom a finite will can enjoy, consists in coming into harmony with the will of God, complying with the conditions that make man a partaker of the divine nature.(OHC 138)

---

Notice that sin is something which can be expelled by an act of the will.

2.When you ask the question of why Adam died, I assume you are speaking of the first death, not the second. When sin entered into the world, it had in impact, causing things to run down. This is the law of entropy, or the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The death was not in the apple, but in the sin. Sin is transgression of the law, which is contrary to God's character, which encompasses acting out of harmony with the principle of God's government. Life can only be sustained in accordance with the principles of God's government, which are principles of life, health, and peace. Selifishness can only lead to misery, suffering, pain, and death. A simple way of putting it is that because of sin, things don't word the way they are supposed to. Our bodies break down.

James, I think you would agree that the quotes I posted on the previous page of this thread clearly teach that before sinned occurred God knew exactly who and how it would play out. Tom disagrees. He believes the quotes teach that God foresaw several outcomes but that He did not know exactly which way it would play out.

This isn't the way I would put it, or ever have. What I would say is that the future is open and dynamic, not fixed or determined. If things could only happen in one way, then it would follow that God set into action a set of circumstances of which the only possibility was death. That would make Him the author of death. Which is what you (MM) say. But Satan (according to the Spirit of Prophecy) is the author of death. I think this is a problem in holding to a deterministic mindset. It makes God rather than Satan responsible for sin and death.

The reason I bring this point up is to emphasize God's role. God created sinless beings knowing in advance which ones would sin and die in the lake of fire. He did not cause them to sin. He made them perfect and sinless. But He knew they would choose to sin. And He knew Jesus would live and die to redeem them. He also knew Jesus would succeed on the cross. Tom disagrees.

According to the Spirit of Prophecy:

Quote:

---

Satan in heaven had hated Christ for His position in the courts of God. He hated Him the more when he himself was dethroned. He hated Him who pledged Himself to redeem a race of sinners. Yet into the world where Satan claimed dominion God permitted His Son to come, a helpless babe, subject to the weakness of humanity. He permitted Him to meet life's peril in common with every human soul, to fight the battle as every child of humanity must fight it, at the risk of failure and eternal loss.

The heart of the human father yearns over his son. He looks into the face of his little child, and trembles at the thought of life's peril. He longs to shield his dear one from Satan's power, to hold him back from temptation and conflict. To meet a bitterer conflict and a more fearful risk, God gave His only-begotten Son, that the path of life might be made sure for our little ones. "Herein is love." Wonder, O heavens! and be astonished, O earth! (DA 49)

---

According to EGW, Good took a risk in sending Christ. I agree with her.

Sin and death never would have entered the picture if God had chosen not to create free moral agents.

This much is true. Neither would love enter into the picture had God chosen not to create free moral agents.

But when God chose to create them, knowing which ones would sin and die, sin and death became inevitable. In this sense God is responsible for the existence of sin and death. Again, He did not cause them to sin. But sin and death would not have been possible had He not created beings capable of sinning, beings that He knew in advance would sin and die.

None of the concerns you are exploring on this thread would have been possible had God not chosen to create free moral agents. God is the source of all life. It is God who keeps sinners alive. It would not be possible for sinners to sin if they were dead. God is indirectly responsible for the continued existence of sinning and dying because He continues to grant sinners life. Again, He does not cause them to sin.

Sinning and dying would not happen if God stopped giving sinners life.

This is an interesting thought. If God did not give sinners life, they would stop dying. How about that!

But in spite of all the sinning and dying that happens God continues give us life. Why? Why does God continue to give us life even though we continue to sin and die? Why did He create free moral agents in the first place, especially since He knew that some would choose to sin? If we can answer these questions I believe it will help us answer the questions you are asking on this thread.

On what basis do you insert "especially since He knew that some would choose to sin"? What reason would there be for anyone to sin? Was sinning inevitable? Was there something faulty in our creation to predispose us to sin?

M.M.

Sin and death never would have entered the picture if God had chosen not to create free moral agents. But when God chose to create them, knowing which ones would sin and die, sin and death became inevitable. In this sense God is responsible for the existence of sin and death. Again, He did not cause them to sin. But sin and death would not have been possible had He not created beings capable of sinning, beings that He knew in advance would sin and die.

Unquote.

Is God responsible for the existence of sin and death? Didn’t he create perfect sinless beings? Even though they were created with free will, but when they choose their own will, does this make God responsible?

If God is responsible for the effect of his creating, I think, his redeeming act would no longer be an act of unselfish love but because of a responsibility that must be carried out. He may hate to do this, but he did it because of his responsibility.

For example; I punch and broke the jaw of a man I hate, then I brought him to the doctor, is this done because of love? No but because of responsibility.

So, God did not caused Adam and Eve to sin and the result of their sins then he is not responsible for the outcome, right? And He had warned them before hand, so, I think, it is Adam’s and Eve own fault and their own responsibility for what they had done and the effect to humanity and the world. Satan may be incorporated in this, as it was him who deceived them.

I think, God act of redeeming humanity is pure of his great love towards us, not in the least effected by any sense of responsibility. But if he closed his eyes and forget about us and leave us to our fate (born to die), he just would prove himself not a loving God.

He keep creating free moral beings even though he foresaw their transgression and the inevitable result of sin and death, but he had prepared a way to recreate them back in his image in order they may live again forever even before he created anything.

So, he had made a pattern, a plan, and worked it out.

Is there any sense of responsibility in regards of His creating? I think, God is just doing what he must do, following his pattern.

In His love

James S.

Tom.

Okkay, I got it.

Sinning is an act of our will, this we didn’t inherit from Adam. What we inherit from him is his death body; our sinful nature and the propensity to sin.

But, we have a different heart and mind than Adam after he was created. We have a heart and mind of Adam after he sinned, which he had passed on to us through the multiplication of the flesh. An inheritance we got from Adam.

Unfortunately, this inheritance doesn’t bring us any good; we can do nothing good from our self. “All our righteous acts are like filthy rags” – Isaiah 64:6.

So, again, it is not a matter of choice that we choose to sin, but we could only sinning by default. Only the Spirit of God that we follow could expel the sin within us.

EGW said that men died gradually if no longer eat the fruit of life that sustain life, for they were created mortal, not immortal, since only God is immortal.

So, if men were created mortal and could only prolong their life by eating the fruit of life, doesn’t this give us the meaning that death is God creation? By creating mortal agent, he creates death in their bodies, which could only be avoided through external means, such as eating the fruit of life.

This idea just pop up in my mind while I write this post.

By creating mortal man (Adam), isn’t God create the death in his body that could only be avoided by eating the fruit of life, which prolonged his life?

In His love

James S

Tom.

Okkay, I got it.

Sinning is an act of our will, this we didn’t inherit from Adam. What we inherit from him is his death body; our sinful nature and the propensity to sin.

But, we have a different heart and mind than Adam after he was created. We have a heart and mind of Adam after he sinned, which he had passed on to us through the multiplication of the flesh. An inheritance we got from Adam.

Unfortunately, this inheritance doesn’t bring us any good; we can do nothing good from our self. “All our righteous acts are like filthy rags” – Isaiah 64:6.

So, again, it is not a matter of choice that we choose to sin, but we could only sinning by default.

This would certainly be the case had not God in Christ intervened. But intervene He did, so that we have a choice.

Only the Spirit of God that we follow could expel the sin within us.

EGW said that men died gradually if no longer eat the fruit of life that sustain life, for they were created mortal, not immortal, since only God is immortal.

So, if men were created mortal and could only prolong their life by eating the fruit of life, doesn’t this give us the meaning that death is God creation?

No! Death is Satan's creation.

Quote:

---

The fall of our first parents, with all the woe that has resulted, he charges upon the Creator, leading men to look upon God as the author of sin, and suffering, and death. Jesus was to unveil this deception. (DA 24)

---

By creating mortal agent, he creates death in their bodies,

Ay ay ay! Ouch! Nooooo! God did not create death in their bodies. God is not like that. God is good. He gives life.

which could only be avoided through external means, such as eating the fruit of life.

This idea just pop up in my mind while I write this post.

By creating mortal man (Adam), isn’t God create the death in his body that could only be avoided by eating the fruit of life, which prolonged his life?

No, this wasn't God's idea. Death comes by way of sin. Without sin, death could not exist. The same lesson man was to learn from eating from the tree of life man may also learn from the gift of breath. God has created us in such a way that it is obvious that we depend on Him for life. He did this for our benefit because He loves us.

TE - Neither would love enter into the picture had God chosen not to create free moral agents.

MM – I disagree. Love existed between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

MM - Sinning and dying would not happen if God stopped giving sinners life.

TE - This is an interesting thought. If God did not give sinners life, they would stop dying. How about that!

MM – How? Because there would be no sinners left to sin or die if God stopped giving them life. Only sinners sin and die.

TE - On what basis do you insert "especially since He knew that some would choose to sin"? What reason would there be for anyone to sin? Was sinning inevitable? Was there something faulty in our creation to predispose us to sin?

MM – God knows the end from the beginning. He knew one third of the angels and the majority of the human race would sin and die in the lake of fire. He knew all this before He created the first free moral agent. Please refer to the SOP quotes posted toward the bottom of page 7 of this thread.

He created sinless free moral agents. There was no reason for anyone to sin. Sinning was inevitable in the sense God foresaw it, not in the sense that He ordained it. No one was created with a predisposition to sin.