John, I agree there is a distinction between body and spirit. However, when Jesus breathed the breath of life into the nostrils of Adam he became a living soul. Body plus breath equals life. The two cannot be separated. We are physical and spiritual beings simultaneously - not independently. That's why health reform is so important. The relationship between the health of the body and the health of the spirit is inseparable. BTW, when I use the word "spirit" I mean the faculties of the mind - not some disembodied conscious thing.

MM, you wrote,

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James, I agree with you. Tom's view of death goes against what I believe to be true in the Bible and the SOP.

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I think what you really meant to say was, "James, I disagree with you" because if you pay attention to what James wrote you will see he said this:

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I must decide that Tom’s view even though is very logic and make sense, but is not supported by the bible and upheld only by EGW.

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James is saying that my view is upheld by the SOP, which is exactly the opposite of what you are saying! Oops.

John, I would interested in seeing any Scripture references you had in mind while writing your post, most especially in reference to the first paragraphs.

I had a question about this: "Eating of the tree of life perpetuated the life of the body which otherwise by itself is in degenerative mode." I don't understand that there could be a "degenerative mode" without sin.

I like especially what you wrote about justice. You could flesh that out if you wanted to, which would be guaranteed to be accompanied by great applause on the part of some.

Quoted from Tom post.
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And since I would only accept and use views that are supported by the bible, I must decide that Tom’s view even though is very logic and make sense, but is not supported by the bible and upheld only by EGW.________________________________________
I think every point I've made I have supported by Scripture and the Spirit of Prophecy. Could you please name some specific point I've made which is not supported by such? At least I'm glad you think it's logical

Unquote.

I have checked your posts here in this thread, your idea that humanity died because of their sin, stressing it: “sin causes death”, has no scriptural support, just a logic based on EGW quotes.

That sin results in death is easily established from Scripture:

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The soul that sins shall die. (Exek 18:20)

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Sin pays its wages - death. (Rom. 6:23 GNB)

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Death gets its power to hurt from sin. (1 Cor. 15:16 GNB)

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Sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. (James 1:15 GNB)

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But I must admit that it is very logic indeed and make me must postpone my decision in order to study it further. If this idea is so important for you and Mike that both of you didn’t come to an agreement in the past 3 years till now, then surely there must be a good reason for it.

Lol. Yes, Mike and I have very different concepts of God's character. Here are some statements from Mike speaks of "satisfying His thirst for vengeance." and agreed with this reprisal of his beliefs.

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When the wicked are resurrected, God will cast them into a lake of fire, something like molten lava, which He will keep them supernaturally alive to suffer by being scalded, or boiled, until they pay by physical suffering for each sin they have committed. The righteous who witness this will be rejoice to see this happen, even when it involves their children or other loved ones. Holy angels who witness the suffering of the wicked will rejoice. God will rejoice in the suffering of our loved ones.

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I see things very differently.

You wrote:
The death was not in the apple, but in the sin.

Death is inherent in sin. One cannot have sin without death. When Christ became sin, He died. God didn't kill Him, but He died because of sin. This is one of the key things His death was intended to demonstrate.
Unquote.

This idea is strong.

Paul said: For since death came through a man, the resurrection from the death comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 1 Corinthians 15:21,22

Another quote from Paul: Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned. Romans 5:12

My understanding for what Paul had said is:
1. Humanity died because they were incorporated in Adam’s body even they were unborn yet, which means, the fate of humanity is secure, born to die, according to 1 Corinthians 15:22.
2. Humanity died because all have sinned.

The question now is, “what kills Adam?” How did he die?
We have two solid answers here, which one is supported by the bible?

1. Sin causes death, IOW – Adam died because of his sin, as according to Tom Ewall
2. Adam died because his life is no longer sustained by the fruit of life. Created immortal, he only could survive and continue to live if he continue eats the fruit of life, this is as according to M.M.

When you speak of death, it would be helpful if you made clear what death you are talking about. Are you talking about physical death, or the second death? Paul explains that death comes from sin by the following:

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Sin came into the world through one man, and his sin brought death with it. (Rom. 5:12 GNB)

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This makes is very clear that death came by sin, doesn't it?

MM, re; that quote in the third post by Tom on this page (11) - you're saying God rejoices in the suffering of the wicked? It says He has no pleasure in their death. Granted, there are times when God encourages rejoicing - at the drowning of Pharoah's army, at the future destruction of Babylon. The rejoicing in those cases is because of God's deliverence though isn't it?

Tom, please quote me, instead of you, when sharing my views. Thank you. Here's how Sister White wrote about the lake of fire and the rejoicing that attends it:

EW 294, 295
Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294.2}

EW 51
The soul that sinneth it shall die an everlasting death--a death that will last forever, from which there will be no hope of a resurrection; and then the wrath of God will be appeased. {EW 51.2}

EW 218
The soul that sinneth, it shall die an everlasting death-- a death from which there will be no hope of resurrection; and then the wrath of God will be appeased. {EW 218.1}

GC 672, 673
Saith the Lord: "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit." "I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. . . . I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:6-8, 16-19. {GC 672.1}

"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

Tom.

Now you have shown the Scripture back’s up, good.

For me, the most important thing is that God has nothing to do with sin and death of men; it is all their own choice. How they died does not really matter, what matter is that man were created in perfection, holy, with a free will choice to live eternally but died because of sin which is their own choice.

From this point view, I could understand the need of humanity to be redeemed and the need of God to redeem men.

If God gives life and then at some time when he thinks is right he takes out the life of that man, then I understand that redemption is not needed and Christ does not exist. This is what I want to find out.

But, are our death connected to God taking out our life or not?

In His love

James S

Mark, the rejoicing that attends those who behold the punishment and destruction of the wicked during the seven last plagues and in the lake of fire is recorded throughout the Bible and the SOP.

Revelation
16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous [are] thy judgments.

Revelation
18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong [is] the Lord God who judgeth her.

I agree with you that Jesus has "no pleasure" in the death of the wicked, but when justice is finally served He will be satisfied, His wrath will be appeased, He will rejoice that sin and death are eliminated with unsaved sinners in the lake of fire. That's how the inspired authors describe it.