Yes, certainly not all will go to heaven. But the point I've been trying to make is that Christ actually *did* something for all of us, and we should be thankful for that! Even if we choose to live our lives in total selfishness and eventually die, it will still have been true that Christ died for us, at great risk and infinite cost to Himself, not to mention the risk that God the Father took, and the cost to Himself as well.

It's not simply that we have probabtion (thanks to Christ pushing us out of the way of the vehicle), but Christ was run over by the vehicle. If this happened in real life, would you be thankful for someone who gave his life to save yours? Your "probation," your extra life, you would probably live in memory of the great self-sacrifice of this person who laid down his life for yours. Even if you were lost at last, you would still be in debt to that person for his sacrifice. And so it is that Paul writes:

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For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. (2 Cor. 5:14, 15)

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The death of Christ motivates us, even compels us, to live for Him who died for us! If not for Him, we would be dead. To the death of Christ, we owe even this earthly life. What a Savior!

Yes, the Plan of Salvation took effect, in which Christ came to this sinful planet and actually died for the whole human race, from Adam to each one of us.

In that sense the whole human race was saved from immediate death and a second time of probation was given for every human being

We know that Adam repented and will one day meet Christ, the second Adam, face to face.

Sadly though, it seems that Cain didn't repent and will be amongst the lost.

If the Creator had not forgiven the human race He could not have come to save it. How can we claim to believe in biblical creation and also believe that the Creator saves us as individuals? Our sectarianism is blinding us.

Where is the contradiction between general creation and individual salvation?

The Creator forgives those who seek His forgiveness, which was made possible through the Plan of Salvation, however, only those who repent of their sins and ask for forgiveness for their sins will receive it.

God forgives everybody, whether they ask for it or not. For example, Jesus prayed, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." Those who are of Christ manifest the same spirit. For example, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." (Stephen's last words). Also Paul manifest this spirit in saying he would be accursed for the sake of those who were persecuting him.

As 2 Cor. 5:19 says, "God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their sins against them." As the psalmest puts it, "If thou shouldst mark iniquity, who could stand?" (Ps. 130:3).

However, it is true that only those who repent of their sins and ask for forgiveness will receive it, because this is the only way it can be received. It's not that God withholds giving it, but it cannot be received without being received (how's that for stating a self-evident truth!)

All must enter, or nobody will enter?

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Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

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Then where or how does the division of the sheep and the goats, the separation of the righteous/redeemed from the unrighteousness/unredeemed fit in?

Whos context are we talking about here? Ours or theirs? It is sertainly out of context in our postenlightenmnet world to speak of divine acts and especially of divine wrath, but which was the context Jesus and the apostles knew? Lets hear a testimony of the historic context that Jesus first audience lived in:

2Pe 2:1 Now there were false prophets among the people, just as there also will be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies and even deny the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2Pe 2:2 Many people will follow their immoral ways, and because of them the way of truth will be maligned.
2Pe 2:3 In their greed they will exploit you with deceptive words. The ancient verdict against them is still in force, and their destruction is not asleep.
2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but threw them into the lowest hell and committed them to chains of deepest darkness to be kept for judgment;
2Pe 2:5 and if he did not spare the ancient world but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others when he brought the flood on the world of ungodly people;
2Pe 2:6 and if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and destroyed them by burning them to ashes, making them an example to ungodly people of what is going to happen to them;
2Pe 2:7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man who was greatly distressed by the immoral conduct of lawless people-
2Pe 2:8 for as long as that righteous man lived among them, day after day he was being tortured in his righteous soul by what he saw and heard in their lawless actions-
2Pe 2:9 then the Lord knows how to rescue godly people from their trials and to hold unrighteous people for punishment on the day of judgment,
2Pe 2:10 especially those who satisfy their flesh by indulging in its passions and who despise authority. Being bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to slander glorious beings.


There is just too much scripture that speaks about God judging the world and finding it wanting, and in all kinds of litterary styles. It is mentioned in History, Prophesy, Poetry, Teaching. Is denying this just dont a bad case of "I made up my mind and no amount or quality of contrary evidence will change my mind"?

Conserning gnosticism (and scientology im told), isnt the thing there not mere knowledge but more specifically secret knowledge only known by a few initiated? Quoting the most widely circulated book on earth hardly fits into that description does it?

/Thomas