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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73859
06/08/06 05:15 PM
06/08/06 05:15 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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Tom, what does "in 40 days" mean to you? Clearly it means "within 40 days." The Nineveh that existed before the people repented did not exist after they repented. It was destroyed. Jeremiah speaks of an action God says He will do. This is not what happened in Nineveh.
Darius A. Lecointe, J.D., Ph.D.
No weapon formed against me shall prosper.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73860
06/08/06 05:18 PM
06/08/06 05:18 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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Tom, the lesson I learn from Nineveh is that we cannot use a prophecy to tie the hands of the Creator. Humans cannot decide how a prophecy must be fulfilled. Too many of think that because we have a few prohetic charts we know the future. Newsflash! We do not!
Darius A. Lecointe, J.D., Ph.D.
No weapon formed against me shall prosper.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73861
06/08/06 07:34 PM
06/08/06 07:34 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Quote:
No, there will not be a second chance for any wicked person.
To clarify, the problem is not that second chance is not given. If the wicked were willing to repent, God would forgive them. It's not an arbitrary decision on the part of God that keeps them out of heaven, but it is their own voluntary choice which does this:
God does not force the will or judgment of any. He takes no pleasure in a slavish obedience. He desires that the creatures of His hands shall love Him because He is worthy of love. He would have them obey Him because they have an intelligent appreciation of His wisdom, justice, and benevolence. And all who have a just conception of these qualities will love Him because they are drawn toward Him in admiration of His attributes.
The principles of kindness, mercy, and love, taught and exemplified by our Saviour, are a transcript of the will and character of God. Christ declared that He taught nothing except that which He had received from His Father. The principles of the divine government are in perfect harmony with the Saviour's precept, "Love your enemies." ...
God would make them happy if He could do so in accordance with the laws of His government and the justice of His character...The Lord bears long with their perversity; but the decisive hour will come at last, when their destiny is to be decided. Will He then chain these rebels to His side? Will He force them to do His will?
Those who have chosen Satan as their leader and have been controlled by his power are not prepared to enter the presence of God. Pride, deception, licentiousness, cruelty, have become fixed in their characters. Can they enter heaven to dwell forever with those whom they despised and hated on earth? Truth will never be agreeable to a liar; meekness will not satisfy self-esteem and pride; purity is not acceptable to the corrupt; disinterested love does not appear attractive to the selfish. What source of enjoyment could heaven offer to those who are wholly absorbed in earthly and selfish interests?...
A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. (GC 541, 542)
From this we see that God does not for the will or judgment of the wicked. They choose not to go to heaven, and God abides by their choice. So it's not a matter that the don't get a second chance, but that they do not want to have anything to do with God or those who love Him, just like here on earth.
Jesus talked about this in the parable of Lazrus and the rich man. He said that if they have not believed Moses, that wouldn't change their mind, even if one were raised from the dead (which is exactly what happened). This principle can be extropolated to include them; that is, even if *they* are the ones raised from the dead, they won't change their minds.
The problem is that pride and other traits become fixed in their characters, and the character doesn't change when one is resurrected.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73862
06/08/06 08:08 PM
06/08/06 08:08 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Quote:
Tom and Vaster, the point is that if any human ends up in hell, though it seems that the God is going out of His way not to have to do so, it will not be because they were not saved.
The sense in which everybody is saved is not in the sense that everyone will go to heaven. There's nothing that teaches this.
Quote:
Everyone has the right to independently rebel.
Right! And God will not force the will of any. Why do you think they rebels of today will stop rebelling tomorrow? (where today=in this life and tomorrow=in the life to come)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73863
06/08/06 08:16 PM
06/08/06 08:16 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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Tom, I am not the one who insists on equating salvation with eternal life. This is the crux of our problem. We have a theology that does teach the truth about salvation. This is why we keep telling people to come and be saved or that God will not save so and so. These comments reflect a flawed view of salvation.
I don't get the relevance of your last comment. Lucifer was never a rebel and he became a rebel. What gives you the idea that the authority of the Creator depends on his creatures never rebelling again? It is a romantic idea but nothing says it is true. The Creator has never been threatened by Lucifer's rebellion or by our actions.
Darius A. Lecointe, J.D., Ph.D.
No weapon formed against me shall prosper.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73864
06/08/06 08:36 PM
06/08/06 08:36 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Quote:
Tom, I am not the one who insists on equating salvation with eternal life. This is the crux of our problem. We have a theology that does teach the truth about salvation. This is why we keep telling people to come and be saved or that God will not save so and so. These comments reflect a flawed view of salvation.
I mostly agree with this. The only thing I would question is the salvation is not equal to eternal life comment. "Salvation" as it is usually used, is equivalent to eternal life; it applies to individual salvation, not corporate salvation. How is salvation, as you are using the term, different than eternal life?
Quote:
I don't get the relevance of your last comment. Lucifer was never a rebel and he became a rebel. What gives you the idea that the authority of the Creator depends on his creatures never rebelling again?
Inspiration gives me the idea in saying that sin will never arise again.
Quote:
It is a romantic idea but nothing says it is true.
The Bible says it is true. That's something.
Quote:
The Creator has never been threatened by Lucifer's rebellion or by our actions.
How is this relevant? He was threatened in the sense that His love for His creatures drove Him to take action which was risky both to Himself and to His Son.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73865
06/08/06 09:06 PM
06/08/06 09:06 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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Tom, we have been saved but do not now experience eternal life. It's as simple as that.
I know what Nahum 1:9 says. I asks what makes you think that the authority of the Creator depends on man not rebelling again.
What was the risk? God came to reveal Himself. Lucifer could never overcome Him. Theologians have created a risk and now you wish to have the Bible validate it. There was not risk in the plan of salvation.
Darius A. Lecointe, J.D., Ph.D.
No weapon formed against me shall prosper.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73866
06/08/06 11:24 PM
06/08/06 11:24 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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1.Jesus said, "I have come that you might have life, and have it abundantly." "For God so loved the world, He gave His only Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." "To know God, is life eternal."
John wrote:"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God" (1 John 5:13).
To use John B.'s language, eternal life is not a duration of physical life, but a quality of spiritual life. Eternal life is something we can have right now, by believing in Christ. Not only can we have it, but we can know we have it.
2.Christ was tempted as we are and could have sinned. That was a risk.
3.If you know the Bible ways that sin will not arise a second time, why did you say "nothing says it is true"?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73867
06/09/06 12:54 AM
06/09/06 12:54 AM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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Tom, please read me carefully. Nahum says nothing about the authority of the Creator being dependent on man not rebelling in the future.
What kind of risk are you talking about? Do you really think that the creature could outsmart the creator? You must have a very low impression of the Creator.
Darius A. Lecointe, J.D., Ph.D.
No weapon formed against me shall prosper.
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Re: We Have All Been Saved
#73868
06/09/06 09:26 PM
06/09/06 09:26 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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1.That sin will not arise a second time doesn't have to do with God's authority. It won't arise again because the issues of the Great Controversy have been understood.
2.The risk was due to the reality of Christ's temptations, especially on the cross. Being outsmarted by a creature was not an issue. Christ's temptations were as a man, not as the Creator.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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