Another way to look at this is to consider what eternal life is. Eternal life is not dealing with duration of life. That is, it does not mean a physical life which never ends. It is dealing with a quality of life, what John is calling spiritual life.

Jesus said, "To know God is life eternal." When Adam and Eve chose to rebel against God, they chose not to know Him. Since knowing God is eternal life, not knowing God is eternal death. It's that simple. In order that we might life, God sent His Son, that we might know Him. Thus it is that we read both in the Scriptures, in John 17, and in the Spirit of Prophecy (ST 1/20/90) that the whole purpose of Christ's mission was to reveal God to us. Knowing God solved the sin problem.

John.

I try to summarize your view, correct me if I’m wrong.

Sin is spiritual death and the body was not created to have life in it self, when spirit is death, body must die too. When man sinned, he lost spiritual life and became carnal, he must die if God not intervene. Adam would die instantly, but the plan of salvation has prolonged man’s life.

Salvation then has to do with two aspects:
1. Bringing life back to the spirit
2. Restoration of the body to the agreement of the spirit.

Quoting 2 verses of the Scripture to sustain your view that spiritual death (sin) is the caused of human death.

I would comment on your view.

1. According to the Scripture: Life is the body + the Spirit of God. Death is the body – the Spirit of God
2. According to your view: Life is the body + a death spirit.

The question is: Is this death spirit still the same Spirit of God? Or is it of another spirit? Whose spirit? If it is no longer the Spirit of God, how could we continue living?

Salvation according to me is:

1. Resurrection of the death, a restored life after death.
2. Liberation of the power of sin

Is it the same as what you said?

In His love

James

Quote:

What God did do, was to provide for a way of salvation from the death that occured; not that he caused the death to occur. If that were the case, God is saving us from his own actions.

This is very important for us to understand. It makes a profound difference whether we view God as One to fear because He will kill us if we do not do what He says, or as One who saves us from sin.

What is it that is deadly, that we need to be saved from? Is it sin, or God?

Unquote.

Interesting!

This death occurred because man has chosen their own will. Man could do this because God created him with the free will of choice. God, knowing man would sin and die, has prepared Christ, “who was foreordained before the foundation of the world” to save man back.

God is the creator of heaven and earth, “and without him was not anything made that was made.”

God is the Source of life, but death, where it comes from?

I think we must go to the very beginning of man creation, there we would find the true answer, and not looking in what happened to them after they sinned.

Life is : Body + the Spirit of God

Genesis 2:7 “And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man becomes a living soul.”
Psalm 104:30 “When you send your Spirit they are created…..”

Death is: Body – the Spirit of God.

Where goes the Spirit of God? Back to Him that has given it.
How could the Spirit go back to God? Did He take it away or does the Spirit spring out of itself from our body?

The Scripture answer it: Psalm 104:29 “……………….., when you take away their breath, they die and return to the dust.”

Did God ever planned to take away his Spirit from man? I believe no, man was created with the intention to live forever even though they are mortal, or subject to die.

So, what makes it happen that death occurred to man?

Sin? Or God because man have sinned?

In His love

James S

Daryl wrote: These were all acts on God's part, therefore, it would seem logical to say that God caused death as a result of their not heeding His warning not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

I agree. Jesus warned them fairly. He always keeps His promises. He never forces us.

I’m still thinking about your idea John that man died spiritually at the fall. Do I have that right? I was glad to see you raised the issue of the spiritual nature of man in this context because it relates to the question of the thread. Could you confirm that is what you’re saying and I’ll give that more thought.

In another thread I raised the issue of the physical and spiritual nature of man and asked if Adventism’s view that man is a combination of the breath of life or spirit of God and physical body is an adequate description of humankind.

Tom said: “There is no spiritual aspect to man which does not involve his mind. All communication between God and man happens through the mind, . . .When a person is in vision, or dreaming, their mind is active. Their spirit doesn't go anywhere. No part of the person has moved to a different location, although the mind may perceive this to be happening.”

Tom seems to be saying above that all communication takes place through the organ of the brain, and that visions occur there and nowhere else, but is that necessarily true? I’ve put together two authorities that seem to indicate there is more to it than that. The first is from EGW describing the end of her vision of the glories of other worlds.


She says, “I could not bear the thought of coming back to this dark world again. Then the angel said, "You must go back, and if you are faithful, you, with the 144,000, shall have the privilege of visiting all the worlds and viewing the handiwork of God."” {EW 39.3}

So was EGW in this other world and did her conversation with Enoch take place there or did it only take place in her brain. Since she was not breathing, how could the physical thinking processes of the brain which requires oxygen be working? God could supply the lack of oxygen miraculously, but the fact that her bodily functions were stopped suggests that her centre of thought was no longer in her brain.

Paul, speaking of his vision says; “12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.” II Cor. 12

Here Paul the apostle says he is not sure himself what happened when he went into vision and was taken to paradise 14 years earlier. Isn’t it a little surprising (and instructive) that the Apostle who wrote the most profound and difficult theological statements still did not know after many visions and years of reflection whether he was both physically and spiritually in paradise. But he does seem to be sure of one thing; that is, at a minimum, he was in paradise in spirit if not physically. He deliberately leaves open the possibility that his physical body may have remained on earth while he visited paradise in spirit.